Debate Now Incivility

[Gracie]

It can affect people who are not strong enough to deal with it, I agree.
I have horror stories I have witnessed. One gal committed suicide from the bullying, rumor mongering, etc. Online. Such a sweetheart of a lady, too. She was "too nice" for some. They needled her to her own death then laughed at her unability to handle it after being informed she killed herself.

 

[Foxfyre]

There I think you probably ARE talking about real sociopaths.

 

[Gracie]

Yes. A whole bunch in one group. All together. Bad shit, that.

 

[Bleipriester]

I checked 6 and 7 though 6 isn´t good formulated. I mean "because many others do it".
Many people can´t take other´s success or better-being. They are assholes from the shoes to the hat and their only way to be "better" than others is to put them down.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Why are people uncivil and so often say hateful or insulting or hurtful things to each other in this and other environments?

Because, from what I've witnessed, it is because of the expectation that "everyone must agree with me," "Notice me," or "Accept me."

What do they get out of it?

A false sense of security. Until the next time their ideology is challenged, thus the cycle will begin anew.

Do they hope to accomplish something?

Yes, they want consensus. But often fail when they resort to incivility to do so.

Has anybody ever had their mind changed by somebody yelling at them and/or being insulting?

No. It breeds contempt, and lack of understanding for them and their cause. But anyone can look a man straight in the eye, tell a bald faced lie, and have the man believe it without breaking a sweat.

What purpose does it serve?

To cover for one's own sense of inferiority.

Is there some sort of personal satisfaction attached to it?

Yes. Why else would someone do such a thing? They are desperate to buttress their weaknesses, thus resorting to incivility.

And is this a good thing? Bad thing?

It is always a bad thing. If anyone finds themselves doing stuff like this, seek help. It is unhealthy.

Can it harm people?

All the instances of kids committing suicide because of bullying testify to the affirmative.

What affect, if anything, does incivility have on others, especially kids?

Suicide. Hatred. Resentment. Fear. You know those two women fighting over shampoo at a Wal-Mart? A poor child saw all of that, and to his detriment he will think that this kind of thing is okay. His mother set a poor example for him by resorting to such rank incivility over such a trivial thing as shampoo.

 

[Alex.]

On the internet because they are powerless or cowardly in RL. In RL because they are in numbers greater than the victim, bigger than the victim or sociopathic. The rude person has an edge over the victim whether it be age, sex, material wealth, education, physicality or the like. Being nice and courteous takes courage in the face of conflict or debate.

Do you think powerless or cowardly applies to all though? Some here at USMB seem to be well educated, sensible, well adjusted people with a lot going for them. But these same folks seem to relish being part of the down and dirty threads, or devote most of their time to witty insults or put downs. It almost feels like sport. But I sometimes think it goes way too far and could be dangerous for some who aren't so socially mature or secure.

Taking part in mutually agreeable mudslinging is not the same as pouncing on an unsuspecting person because they happen to have an opposing viewpoint.

 

[Wake]

It takes more effort to be civil.

Some don't see the value in it.

At times I think people treat others hatefully because, deep down, they hate themselves to some degree.

 

[TemplarKormac]

And right here, normal, self respecting and civil adults converge on this forum to act like children and say very hateful things to one another, including myself. Politics of all things. Sometimes I only see children instead of grownups (with a few exceptions). That's not an insult to anyone, that's an easy observation. I've seen it happen on every political forum I've posted on for nearly 5 years. In fact, on one, I had a threat mailed to me from another member of my hometown over a disagreement we had on a local newspaper driven political forum. When I threatened to press charges, he sent me a $20 gift certificate to Steak and Shake (who can say no to food?). That's how far it can drive someone, to violence.

 

[Foxfyre]

It takes more effort to be civil.

Some don't see the value in it.

At times I think people treat others hatefully because, deep down, they hate themselves to some degree.

You think it takes more effort? Not me. I don't recall ever deleting a post in which I was saying something nice or something neutral to somebody. (Maybe I should have deleted some of those when my post was completely misinterpreted.)

But I have typed out a lot of uncomplimentary pithy comments and observations over the years, took a moment to proof my work, and then deleted it before I ever sent it.

 

[Wake]

It takes more effort to be civil.

Some don't see the value in it.

At times I think people treat others hatefully because, deep down, they hate themselves to some degree.

You think it takes more effort? Not me. I don't recall ever deleting a post in which I was saying something nice or something neutral to somebody. (Maybe I should have deleted some of those when my post was completely misinterpreted.)

But I have typed out a lot of uncomplimentary pithy comments and observations over the years, took a moment to proof my work, and then deleted it before I ever sent it.

I feel that it takes more effort to be civil because one requirement for not responding poorly to uncivil people is restraint. This goes beyond responding to sane and uncivil people, to the point where it involves your everyday life. For example, I work in a hospital caring for people with traumatic brain injuries, obscene and violent behaviors, etc. And sometimes rude staff, patients, and the family members of said patients. Sometimes when you're called horrible names, or undeserved things are said to you, your initial reaction is to be angry and want to say something back. In that moment, you can hold your tongue, be patient, and let it go.

This has become easy for me, because I work in an environment where there's constant screaming, cursing, and terrible behaviors caused by brain injuries. In a way it's worked the 'patience' muscle. At times I want to break down and scream. When you're wiping the butt of an incontinent and brain-injured patient who is screaming at the top of his lungs that you're a f****t and that you're raping him [as but one example], it becomes hellish for you, especially when he puts his hand 'down there' and then attempts to slap you with feces. It takes an immense amount of effort to not scream out in indignant rage. Diabolically, that patient doesn't bother me nearly as bad as sane [yet rude and stupid] people, because he's got a valid excuse [he has a traumatic brain injury]. I read the posts from some of these rabid dogs and I wonder deep down what their excuse is. "Don't you know better?" "Didn't your parents teach you?" That's what gets me fed up. Not the poor patient who needs all the care and patience in the world to pull through a horrible point in his life.

It takes real effort to reign in your emotions and character flaws on a constant basis.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Sometimes the best form of civility isn't just restraint, it's silence.

 

[Wake]

Sometimes the best form of civility isn't just restraint, it's silence.

When I read this, I thought of my doctor [who, ironically, is also my daily coworker].

A good Pakistani man who I've come to respect over the months. Patient and quiet, especially when it comes to disturbances.

 

[Foxfyre]

I checked 6 and 7 though 6 isn´t good formulated. I mean "because many others do it".
Many people can´t take other´s success or better-being. They are assholes from the shoes to the hat and their only way to be "better" than others is to put them down.

What I meant by #6 is the 'herd' or 'pack' or 'pile on' mentality. They see their buddies attacking somebody and they join in so they'll be accepted as 'one of the boys' (or girls.) It's like when the first dog attacks, all the others feel braver to follow suit.

I think it a sign of a kind of immaturity when people immediately feel angry or threatened when somebody disagrees with them, and that's when many first lash out. They are so opposed to the other person's point of view, they feel compelled to accuse the other of something or put him/her down to expose his sin of being the opposition. And if they feel they aren't being effective at neutralizing somebody, they'll even call in their friends to pile on. It no longer becomes an exchange of ideas but a pack mentality to destroy somebody.

 

[Gracie]

I've been guilty of that crap. I have also distanced myself from people who lured me in. At least one can learn something and act on it to the betterment of oneself. It's a struggle, like Wake said, but it can be done. One day at a time.

 

[BlueGin]

Foxfyre....the net is a whole new world. New rules, same people. The net has helped me very much in many areas. In others, it has made me wary and secretive, careful and paranoid.

All I can say is..USUALLY, one can tell what someone is truly like by the things they post over time. But sometimes the ones you think are sane? Aren't. Good actors. On the net, best thing to do is keep yer guard up. If you don't think they would be a real friend in RL, then you damn sure don't want them as one on the net.

Yes. Some I just steer clear of. But I prefer to take the risk with most people, and am no longer as devastated when they betray my trust, but it still hurts when they do. It hurts when you trust somebody with your friendship and they turn on you with no apparent provocation and I can no longer respect them. I guess I don't WANT to get to the point I don't care about that.

I have more than 300 folks befriended on social media and there isn't a single one of them who has posted anything hurtful or inappropriate to me or about me or I about them. But I guess I'm lucky when I read about all the people who are viciously bullied in that medium. Social media is really public but the vicious people are out there.

And here in the anonymity of the message board, people seem even bolder in saying hateful and hurtful things or spreading malicious rumors. And there is absolutely no defense for that. I don't worry about it myself, but I do fear the effect it can have on people who are less experienced, more vulnerable, not ready to handle stuff like that.

If people betray your trust and turn on you without being provoked... They were never your friend. Period. In which case ...they get no consideration....
They just get written off. People like that are a waste of time and energy.

Life is too short.

 

[BlueGin]

Foxfyre....the net is a whole new world. New rules, same people. The net has helped me very much in many areas. In others, it has made me wary and secretive, careful and paranoid.

All I can say is..USUALLY, one can tell what someone is truly like by the things they post over time. But sometimes the ones you think are sane? Aren't. Good actors. On the net, best thing to do is keep yer guard up. If you don't think they would be a real friend in RL, then you damn sure don't want them as one on the net.

I disagree. People RARELY back up what they "claim" as their personal values with their actions. The two things are more times then not at odds.

In short posters on the internet lie their ass off.

 

[Gracie]

Foxfyre....the net is a whole new world. New rules, same people. The net has helped me very much in many areas. In others, it has made me wary and secretive, careful and paranoid.

All I can say is..USUALLY, one can tell what someone is truly like by the things they post over time. But sometimes the ones you think are sane? Aren't. Good actors. On the net, best thing to do is keep yer guard up. If you don't think they would be a real friend in RL, then you damn sure don't want them as one on the net.

I disagree. People RARELY back up what they "claim" as their personal values with their actions. The two things are more times then not at odds.

In short posters on the internet lie their as off.

Not all. In the 15 years on the net, I have met maybe 4 that were sane...and were true to their online selves as with their real life selves. 1 is even our executor of our final wishes if Mr Gracie and I die at the same time. 2 passed away. 1 is a mod here. That's it. Whats sad is 15 years and thousands of people I have interacted with...and I found 4 that were true.

 

[Foxfyre]

Foxfyre....the net is a whole new world. New rules, same people. The net has helped me very much in many areas. In others, it has made me wary and secretive, careful and paranoid.

All I can say is..USUALLY, one can tell what someone is truly like by the things they post over time. But sometimes the ones you think are sane? Aren't. Good actors. On the net, best thing to do is keep yer guard up. If you don't think they would be a real friend in RL, then you damn sure don't want them as one on the net.

I disagree. People RARELY back up what they "claim" as their personal values with their actions. The two things are more times then not at odds.

In short posters on the internet lie their as off.

I wonder Blue. The people that I first met on line and then met later in real life all turned out to be pretty much the same in both places. Most of the people who regularly post in the Coffee Shop for instance are so realistically a combination of saint and sinner and everything in between, I suspect they are the real deal. I think I would know pretty much what they were like if I were to meet them in real life.

On the other hand, there are some I really thought I knew and felt genuine affection for, who turned out to be very different people.

So I think Gracie's caution to be cautious merits much attention. But if we never risk enough to give people a chance, we will all be hermits.

 

[Gracie]

So I think Gracie's caution to be cautious merits much attention. But if we never risk enough to give people a chance, we will all be hermits.

lol. Of which I am. My pets are my company. When I need human interaction..I hit here, twitter and a few other boards. When I want soothing stuff, I head to Pinterest and Google/Bing images of pretty places.
Problem is...one has to choose where to go depending on ones mood. And set goals.
My goals are more positive and less negative. Being hot tempered makes that difficult so it's really up to ME to be careful what I choose to read...or do...or say for the betterment of self and those around me. Ain't as easy as it sounds, either.

 

[BlueGin]

Foxfyre....the net is a whole new world. New rules, same people. The net has helped me very much in many areas. In others, it has made me wary and secretive, careful and paranoid.

All I can say is..USUALLY, one can tell what someone is truly like by the things they post over time. But sometimes the ones you think are sane? Aren't. Good actors. On the net, best thing to do is keep yer guard up. If you don't think they would be a real friend in RL, then you damn sure don't want them as one on the net.

I disagree. People RARELY back up what they "claim" as their personal values with their actions. The two things are more times then not at odds.

In short posters on the internet lie their as off.

I wonder Blue. The people that I first met on line and then met later in real life all turned out to be pretty much the same in both places. Most of the people who regularly post in the Coffee Shop for instance are so realistically a combination of saint and sinner and everything in between, I suspect they are the real deal. I think I would know pretty much what they were like if I were to meet them in real life.

On the other hand, there are some I really thought I knew and felt genuine affection for, who turned out to be very different people.

So I think Gracie's caution to be cautious merits much attention. But if we never risk enough to give people a chance, we will all be hermits.

I used to give people online the benefit of the doubt. I think there has (maybe) been one ...that proved themselves to be what they claimed and did what they said. BUT After several other bad experiences I am just unwilling to stick my neck out anymore. It's not worth it.

As far as "trust worthy" friends go... It's like the saying... I'd rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.