Is Israel the Same as South Africa?

[Kondor3]

"...sorry bro, but there is a logical statute of limitations on how long after losing land, a culture can rightfully expect it back."

Exactly...

Given that the Jews' claim out-dates the Arabs, and that the Jews have been waiting longer, well...

Glad you see it that way...

 

[Hoffstra]

Given that the Jews' claim out-dates the Arabs, and that the Jews have been waiting longer, well...

the vast majority of the people in the West Bank, are Muslim Arabs.

that means according to you, the land belongs to the Arab Muslims.

they have been there longer. MUCH longer.

more than 1,000 years of uninterrupted occupancy.

 

[Kondor3]

....I admit that the scattered, rag-tag collection of sheep-herders couldn't rule themselves if they tried, much less The Land...

I admit that the Brits took over the rule of that scattered, rag-tag collection of sheep-<bleep>ers from the Ottomans, because the Brits, too, knew that those sheep-<bleep>ers would fuck things up faster than a fly is drawn to camel shit......

so not only do you call for ethnic cleansing against the Arabs, but you clearly have racist feelings towards Arabs.

Racist?

Not at all...

I have considerable respect for the Arabs of Saudi Arabia.

And other countries in which Arab culture and mores and religion have taken root.

It's just that I think the Palestinian-Arabs are a fucking joke.

But, nice try.

Oh, and, your deflection does nothing to address the counter-point that the Arabs, themselves, stole that land out from under the Jews and Byzantines.

Anything to avoid such an admission...

After all, if (1) you admit that they conquered the land by the sword, and (2) that such conquest legitimatized their rule, then (3) you would have to admit that 'Victory on the Battlefield' is a legitimate counterpoint, after all.

In your shoes, I'd shy-away from that sort of admission myself.

 

[Hoffstra]

..Oh, and, your deflection does nothing to address the counter-point that the Arabs, themselves, stole that land out from under the Jews and Byzantines...

by your own logic, they didn't "steal" shit.

they rightfully and legitimately conquered it.

do you believe the Crusaders "stole" Palestine from the Muslims?

 

[Kondor3]

Given that the Jews' claim out-dates the Arabs, and that the Jews have been waiting longer, well...

the vast majority of the people in the West Bank, are Muslim Arabs. that means according to you, the land belongs to the Arab Muslims. they have been there longer. MUCH longer.

more than 1,000 years of uninterrupted occupancy.

But they stole it from the Jews more than 1000 years ago.

The old owners are back.

And changed the title-deed again.

The same way the Arabs did.

By force of arms.

Your people have been enjoying the fruits of their thievery for far too long.

The Sheriff finally showed-up to make things right.

It just took him a little longer than originally expected to show up.

Karma's a bitch, isn't it?

If you don't like it... tough shit.

If you want it back, you must take it.

If you can.

 

[Kondor3]

..Oh, and, your deflection does nothing to address the counter-point that the Arabs, themselves, stole that land out from under the Jews and Byzantines...

by your own logic, they didn't "steal" shit...

All this flopping-about gets us nowhere.

The Jews are there to stay.

The land is theirs now.

If you want it back, you know what you must do.

I'm sure they'd greatly enjoy it if you tried... that would settle the matter in their favor once and for all... and you'd be out of their hair for good.

 

[Hoffstra]

But they stole it from the Jews more than 1000 years ago.

The old owners are back.

And changed the title-deed again.

The same way the Arabs did.

By force of arms.

Your people have been enjoying the fruits of their thievery for far too long.

you're confused, we're talking about the Palestinians, not the Israeli Jewish land thieves.

hell, the Israeli govt. even calls some of the settlers "thieves".

 

[Hoffstra]

All this flopping-about gets us nowhere.

The Jews are there to stay.

The land is theirs now.

If you want it back, you know what you must do.

do you believe the Crusaders "stole" the land from the Muslims?

 

[Kondor3]

All this flopping-about gets us nowhere.

The Jews are there to stay.

The land is theirs now.

If you want it back, you know what you must do.

do you believe the Crusaders "stole" the land from the Muslims?

Yes.

The Crusaders stole it from the Muslims.

The Muslims stole it back later.

And the Crusaders were originally and acting ostensibly as agents for even older thieves - the Byzantines - who inherited that land from the Romans who stole it from the Jews in 70 AD...

One theft after another after another after another...

The only thing that has ever signified there in the end is The Sword...

And, nowadays, the Older Owners are back, with a bigger Sword...

It's their turn again, after a 2,000 -year wait...

 

[Hoffstra]

Yes.

The Crusaders stole it from the Muslims.

The Muslims stole it back later.

And the Crusaders were originally and acting ostensibly as agents for even older thieves - the Byzantines - who inherited that land from the Romans who stole it from the Jews in 70 AD...

One theft after another after another after another...

The only thing that has ever signified there in the end is The Sword...

And, nowadays, the Older Owners are back, with a bigger Sword...

It's their turn again, after a 2,000 -year wait...

and the Hebrews stole the land from the Canaanites?

 

[Kondor3]

But they stole it from the Jews more than 1000 years ago.

The old owners are back.

And changed the title-deed again.

The same way the Arabs did.

By force of arms.

Your people have been enjoying the fruits of their thievery for far too long.

you're confused, we're talking about the Palestinians, not the Israeli Jewish land thieves.

hell, the Israeli govt. even calls some of the settlers "thieves".

Word games.

Semantics.

Wordsmithing.

Spin-doctoring.

Doesn't matter.

What DOES matter is who has control of the land.

And who is capable of KEEPING it.

Everything else is radio static.

 

[Hoffstra]

According to Kondor, the Jews stole the land from the Muslims.

Right now, the Muslims can't steal it back by force.

But they can steal it back by numbers.

 

[Kondor3]

Yes.

The Crusaders stole it from the Muslims.

The Muslims stole it back later.

And the Crusaders were originally and acting ostensibly as agents for even older thieves - the Byzantines - who inherited that land from the Romans who stole it from the Jews in 70 AD...

One theft after another after another after another...

The only thing that has ever signified there in the end is The Sword...

And, nowadays, the Older Owners are back, with a bigger Sword...

It's their turn again, after a 2,000 -year wait...

and the Hebrews stole the land from the Canaanites?

Bingo.

When the Canaanites show-up again as a Recognizable People, with a Continuity of Recognized Identity stretching far enough back in time so as to legitimize their identity-claims - and when they show up in force capable of overwhelming Israel, they might be able to make a similar case.

Until then, the Oldest Organized and Still-Recognizable People Who Were Former Owners - now hold the Deed - again.

Fun, ain't it?

How does it feel to be on the Losing Side against Dhimmis for once?

 

[Hoffstra]

Until then, the Oldest Organized and Still-Recognizable People hold the Deed - again.

within a few generation, simply due to birth rates, the Muslims will again rule Palestine.


hopefully they won't treat the Jews as poorly as the Jews treated the Palestinians.

 

[Kondor3]

According to Kondor, the Jews stole the land from the Muslims.

Right now, the Muslims can't steal it back by force.

But they can steal it back by numbers.

Good luck finding a place to stuff 'em all...

In another 20 years the Palestinians won't have enough land to make a decent-sized tennis court, according to their own propaganda maps...

Most of them will have long-since packed-up and moved to Jordan or Lebanon or Syria or Egypt and fled those shit-holes they're living in...

Especially if the Israelis smarten-up and start paying them off at attractive rates and provide logistics and security support that make it easy for them to leave...

Nobody wants to condemn their families to generations of such needless, pointless violence and increasing, crushing poverty, with no future for the children...

Few sane, rational, practical, realistic Palestinians believe this is going to end well for them...

Just the delusional, vicious stakeholder-leaders of that dying, failed proto-State that never really was...

Families will continue to slip away quietly, one by one, until the floodgates open, and they begin bailing-out in droves...

 

[Hoffstra]

Good luck finding a place to stuff 'em all...

In another 20 years the Palestinians won't have enough land to make a decent-sized tennis court, according to their own propaganda maps...

Most of them will have long-since packed-up and moved to Jordan or Lebanon or Syria or Egypt and fled those shit-holes they're living in...

Nobody wants to condemn their families to generations of such needless, pointless violence and increasing, crushing poverty, with no future for the children..

um, 200,000 Arabs in Israel in 1949 to 1.3 million in 2013.

690,000 Arabs in the West Bank in 1970, to 2.3 million in 2013.


friend, the Arabs of Israel and the West Bank ain't going anywhere.

 

[Kondor3]

Good luck finding a place to stuff 'em all...

In another 20 years the Palestinians won't have enough land to make a decent-sized tennis court, according to their own propaganda maps...

Most of them will have long-since packed-up and moved to Jordan or Lebanon or Syria or Egypt and fled those shit-holes they're living in...

Nobody wants to condemn their families to generations of such needless, pointless violence and increasing, crushing poverty, with no future for the children..

um, 200,000 Arabs in Israel in 1949 to 1.3 million in 2013.

690,000 Arabs in the West Bank in 1970, to 2.3 million in 2013.


friend, the Arabs of Israel and the West Bank ain't going anywhere.

Like I said... your own maps tell the story, and predict the future.

 

[Hoffstra]

Like I said... your own maps tell the story, and predict the future.

they're not my maps, you posted them.

and yes, if no two state solution is created, the one state solution will be the answer.

The Jews and Arabs of Palestine will have to make nice.

 

[Kondor3]

Like I said... your own maps tell the story, and predict the future.

they're not my maps, you posted them.

and yes, if no two state solution is created, the one state solution will be the answer.

The Jews and Arabs of Palestine will have to make nice.

You may continue to delude yourself into believing that this is a viable backup plan, right up to the moment when it becomes clear that it is not viable after all...

 

[Hoffstra]

plan, right up to the moment when it becomes clear that it is not viable after all...

there are two options:

the two state solution and the one bi-national state.


if this last and final round of peace talks fail, we need to start looking at the bi-national state answer.

call it "Judea-Arabia". has a nice ring to it.