Is Israel the Same as South Africa?

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Clearly, the adoption of GA/RES/181(II) and its implementation were pivotal points in the outcomes we see today.

I listed these as two separate issues, Perhaps I should have been more clear.

There were issues in the vote on resolution 181.

There were also issues in Israel's acceptance into the UN.

(COMMENT)

On the issue of GA/RES/181(II), it is exceptionally hard to see and understand the perspectives of the UNCOP and General Assembly in that that timeframe. We can Monday Morning Quarterback the game, and point fingers today. But back then, it was an entirely different environment; a very different set of conditions all together.

The surviving Jews of Europe, fresh from the clutches of the Final Solution and the horrors of the Holocaust, had a mind set; one which the Arab could not appreciate.

It should be remembered that nowhere, in the annals of history for the last two millennium, do we attribute any wars aggression or conquest to the Jewish People. The same could not be said for many nations of the world; especially the Arab.​

The need and the mindset for the special consideration given the Jewish People was of a magnitude that few can appreciate today. While I've heard all the pro-Palestinian discussion on how terrible the conditions are in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, all about the "apartheid" character of Israel, I seriously doubt that the Palestinian has any conditions to report of a comparative nature to Auschwitz, Belzec, Chelmno, Dachau, Majdanek, Sobibor, or Treblinka. Just as I am sure that the (apartheid era) condition in Soweto (SA) are in no way replicated in Palestine (West Bank or Gaza). The "occupation" is about the containment of the violence promoted by Jihadist and Feday'een activities; which organize, instigate, facilitate, participate in, finance, and encourage operations against the sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence of Israel.

It is not expected that the Palestinian should understand the reasons, no matter how it is explained. The myopic view is that only the Palestinians have the right to self determinations, and so they manipulate the facts behind criminal containment and the quarantine of the Jihadist and Feday'een, so necessary to maintain peace and security, into disguised victimization. They tend to deny and past history of criminal and terrorist behaviors; even as they call for it today.

Most Respectfully,
R

Why should the Palestinians get the boot because of what happened in Europe?

The delegation of Iraq considered that the whole question of Palestine had been treated in a manner contrary to the principles of the Charter and of international law and to the ancient principle whereby every country was allotted to the people who inhabited it.

A/PV.207 of 11 May 1949

Why do you always slime the Palestinians for defending their rights?

Give me some examples of the Palestinians defending their rights

 

[docmauser1]

Why should the Palestinians get the boot because of what happened in Europe?

Why should jews get the boot because major arab immigrants from the hood decided to redistribute what wasn't theirs?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is the nature of conflict.

Why should the Palestinians get the boot because of what happened in Europe?

(COMMENT)

The Palestinians did not "get the boot because of what happened in Europe" as you say. They opened up hostilities and lost control.

The delegation of Iraq considered that the whole question of Palestine had been treated in a manner contrary to the principles of the Charter and of international law and to the ancient principle whereby every country was allotted to the people who inhabited it.

A/PV.207 of 11 May 1949

(COMMENT)

Don't, for a moment, think that the Iraqi believed then or now, that there is any such ancient principle. They are just as bad as the Palestinian.

Insight: Iraq security forces outmatched as 'open war' returns
Prisoners set clothes on fire and rioted inside the jail. Militants attacked it from outside with rocket-propelled grenades. A suicide bomber driving a car packed with explosives blasted his way through the main gate. When security forces backed ...
Reuters · 7/30/2013

Bombing rocks mosque in Iraq; 18 dead
(CNN)-- At least 18 Sunni worshipers were killed and 29 others were injured in Iraq on Friday when two bombs ripped through a mosque, police said. The incident occurred in Samarra, a largely Sunni city more than 60 …

Bombings and a shooting kill 10 security force members in northern Iraq
Attacks kill 10 in northern Iraq
A suicide assault on a police headquarters and other insurgent attacks in northern Iraq killed 10 members of the security forces on Saturday, police said.

UN chief deplores deadly incidents in Iraq's Camp Ashraf
... the responsibility of the Iraqi government to ensure the safety and security of the residents. He also called on the Iraqi government to promptly investigate the incident and disclose the findings. Earlier in the day, Iraqi media quoted a ...
Xinhua News Agency · 9/1/2013​

They are not any authority on international law and human rights. They kill each other over the drop of a hat. The Sunni 'vs' Shi'ite dispute is the worst.

Find another example. I suggest may be using the Hashemite Kingdom as your template.

Why do you always slime the Palestinians for defending their rights?

(COMMENT)

I am not, in the least bit, sliming the Palestinians. It is what it is. In essences, I said that the Palestinians only have a capacity to think of themselves, and not the greater good. They don't have the capacity to help save a culture. It is a theme not so uncommon in the Middle East.

Of all the post-Ottoman Empire that was Muslim, it all went back to the Arabs excepts for a small sliver of land allocated to the Jewish National Home. There was a greater good at work, one which the Hostile Arab Palestinian wants to suppress, deny and actively worked against.

You can disregard my interpretation of the Hostile Arab Palestinian and use their own words:

6. The Secretary-General has been informed by the Arab Higher Committee that is determined to persist in its rejection of the partition plan and in its refusal to recognize the resolution of the Assembly and “anything deriving therefrom”. The Subsequent communication of 6 February to the Secretary-General from the representative of the Arab Higher Committee set forth the following conclusions of the Arab Higher Committee Delegation:

“a. The Arabs of Palestine will never recognize the validity of the extorted partition recommendations or the authority of the United Nations to make them.

“b. The Arabs of Palestine consider that any attempt by the Jews or any power or group of powers to establish a Jewish State in Arab territory is an act of aggression which will be resisted in self-defense by force.

c. It is very unwise and fruitless to ask any commission to proceed to Palestine because not a single Arab will cooperate with the said commission.

d. The United Nations or its commission should not be misled to believe that its efforts in the partition plan will meet with any success. It will be far better for the eclipsed prestige of this organization not to start on this adventure.

e. The United Nations prestige will be better served by abandoning, not enforcing such an injustice.

f. The determination of every Arab in Palestine is to oppose in every way the partition of that country.

g. The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition.

“The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out – man women and child."​

SOURCE: A/AC.21/9 S/676 16 February 1948

Article 9: Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. This is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase.
Article 10: Commando (Feday'ee) action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war. This requires its escalation, comprehensiveness, and the mobilization of all the Palestinian popular and educational efforts and their organization and involvement in the armed Palestinian revolution.
SOURCE: Palestinian National Charter

Article 13: There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad.
Article 15: The Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine is an Individual Duty: In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.
SOURCE: HAMAS Covenant

Me! Slime the Palestinian! --- Oh no. I just understand who they are and the character of the species and culture. What was it they said:

“The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out – man women and child."​

I thought I was being kind.

It should be noted that the Israeli did not respond to this threat in kind. Because if they had followed the lead of the Arab Higher Committee, there wouldn't be a problem with refugees today, there wouldn't be a border dispute, there wouldn't be a State of Palestine, HAMAS, Islamic Jihad, or Hezbollah to worry about. There would not have been a massacre at the Olympics, there wouldn't have been the piracy of the Achille Lauro, the numerous attacks on airports, the suicide bombings, the ambushes or the rocket attacks. The Israeli responded in a much different way, civilized way, with a Hostile Population that openly told the UN their strategy should the Jewish Agency accept the Partition Plan offer.

If there was a culture that had adopted a holocaust-like strategy, it was the Arab Higher Committee ("wipe them out – man women and child"). The Palestinians did not "get the boot because of what happened in Europe" - but because of what they threatened to do in 1949 (and still promote today). And in 1949, with the events of Auschwitz, Belzec, Chelmno, Dachau, Majdanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka, still very much fresh in their mind, I don't quite blame them.

Was I sliming? No. I was on my best behavior.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[georgephillip]

Now that it is slowly dawning upon the Palestinians that they cannot win militarily...

They are beginning to conjure sugar-plum visions of dismantling the Palestinian government and allowing Israel to annex the West Bank and Gaza and for all of the Palestinians to become citizens of Israel...

This way, inside of a generation or so, they figure they can breed them out (out-produce the Israelis with new births) and then out-vote them at the polls, and thus re-take by Ballot what they could not re-take by the Rifle...

Silly, silly Arabs...

For thinking greedy. greedy Jews have the $lightest interest in peace:

"The winter issue of Kivunim, a “A Journal for Judaism and Zionism,” publishes “A Strategy for Israel in the Nineteen Eighties” by Oded Yinon. The paper, published in Hebrew, rejects the idea that Israel should carry through with the Camp David accords and seek peace.

"Instead, Yinon suggests that the Arab States should be destroyed from within by exploiting their internal religious and ethnic tensions: 'Lebanon’s total dissolution into five provinces serves as a precedent for the entire Arab world including Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and the Arabian peninsula and is already following that track...'"

Oded Yinon

 

[Kondor3]

Now that it is slowly dawning upon the Palestinians that they cannot win militarily...

They are beginning to conjure sugar-plum visions of dismantling the Palestinian government and allowing Israel to annex the West Bank and Gaza and for all of the Palestinians to become citizens of Israel...

This way, inside of a generation or so, they figure they can breed them out (out-produce the Israelis with new births) and then out-vote them at the polls, and thus re-take by Ballot what they could not re-take by the Rifle...

Silly, silly Arabs...

For thinking greedy. greedy Jews have the $lightest interest in peace:

"The winter issue of Kivunim, a “A Journal for Judaism and Zionism,” publishes “A Strategy for Israel in the Nineteen Eighties” by Oded Yinon. The paper, published in Hebrew, rejects the idea that Israel should carry through with the Camp David accords and seek peace.

"Instead, Yinon suggests that the Arab States should be destroyed from within by exploiting their internal religious and ethnic tensions: 'Lebanon’s total dissolution into five provinces serves as a precedent for the entire Arab world including Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and the Arabian peninsula and is already following that track...'"

Oded Yinon

OK, so, now, what's the down-side...?

In actuality...

Greedy?

Not really.

The Jews don't want it all...

Just this...

...hell, they're most of the way there already, and getting closer every year.

And, once they have it, they'll be content; not giving a rat's ass what happens outside their borders, so long as those outsiders don't mess with Israel.

 

[georgephillip]

The UN Partition Plan is why the Arab League objected to giving Jews 55% of Mandate Palestine ...

The UNSCOP reported to the Security Council on Feb.16, 1948:
"Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein."
And they decided to fight it out and got a kampfstiefel in the arse and are still trying to pull it out painfully. Case dismissed and closed.

When are you planning to dip your kampfstiefels and your fat arse in the Brook of the Nile?
Before or after the Euphrates?

"When viewed in the current context, the war on Iraq, the 2006 war on Lebanon, the 2011 war on Libya, the ongoing war on Syria, not to mention the process of regime change in Egypt, must be understood in relation to the Zionist Plan for the Middle East.

"The latter consists in weakening and eventually fracturing neighboring Arab states as part of an Israeli expansionist project.

“'Greater Israel' consists in an area extending from the Nile Valley to the Euphrates.
The Zionist project supports the Jewish settlement movement. More broadly it involves a policy of excluding Palestinians from Palestine leading to the eventual annexation of both the West Bank and Gaza to the State of Israel.

"Greater Israel would create a number of proxy States. It would include parts of Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, the Sinai, as well as parts of Iraq and Saudi Arabia. (See map).
?Greater Israel?: The Zionist Plan for the Middle East | Global Research

 

[georgephillip]

Now that it is slowly dawning upon the Palestinians that they cannot win militarily...

They are beginning to conjure sugar-plum visions of dismantling the Palestinian government and allowing Israel to annex the West Bank and Gaza and for all of the Palestinians to become citizens of Israel...

This way, inside of a generation or so, they figure they can breed them out (out-produce the Israelis with new births) and then out-vote them at the polls, and thus re-take by Ballot what they could not re-take by the Rifle...

Silly, silly Arabs...

For thinking greedy. greedy Jews have the $lightest interest in peace:

"The winter issue of Kivunim, a “A Journal for Judaism and Zionism,” publishes “A Strategy for Israel in the Nineteen Eighties” by Oded Yinon. The paper, published in Hebrew, rejects the idea that Israel should carry through with the Camp David accords and seek peace.

"Instead, Yinon suggests that the Arab States should be destroyed from within by exploiting their internal religious and ethnic tensions: 'Lebanon’s total dissolution into five provinces serves as a precedent for the entire Arab world including Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and the Arabian peninsula and is already following that track...'"

Oded Yinon

OK, so, now, what's the down-side...?

In actuality...

Greedy?

Not really.

The Jews don't want it all...

Just this...

...hell, they're most of the way there already, and getting closer every year.

And, once they have it, they'll be content; not giving a rat's ass what happens outside their borders, so long as those outsiders don't mess with Israel.

You're a page or two behind in your Zionist play book.
Greater Israel starts from the Nile Valley and ends at the Euphrates.

See map here.

"Israeli strategists viewed Iraq as their biggest strategic challenge from an Arab state. This is why Iraq was outlined as the centerpiece to the balkanization of the Middle East and the Arab World. In Iraq, on the basis of the concepts of the Yinon Plan, Israeli strategists have called for the division of Iraq into a Kurdish state and two Arab states, one for Shiite

"Muslims and the other for Sunni Muslims. The first step towards establishing this was a war between Iraq and Iran, which the Yinon Plan discusses.

"The Atlantic, in 2008, and the U.S. military’s Armed Forces Journal, in 2006, both published widely circulated maps that closely followed the outline of the Yinon Plan. Aside from a divided Iraq, which the Biden Plan also calls for, the Yinon Plan calls for a divided Lebanon, Egypt, and Syria.

"The partitioning of Iran, Turkey, Somalia, and Pakistan also all fall into line with these views. The Yinon Plan also calls for dissolution in North Africa and forecasts it as starting from Egypt and then spilling over into Sudan, Libya, and the rest of the region."

 

[Kondor3]

For thinking greedy. greedy Jews have the $lightest interest in peace:

"The winter issue of Kivunim, a “A Journal for Judaism and Zionism,” publishes “A Strategy for Israel in the Nineteen Eighties” by Oded Yinon. The paper, published in Hebrew, rejects the idea that Israel should carry through with the Camp David accords and seek peace.

"Instead, Yinon suggests that the Arab States should be destroyed from within by exploiting their internal religious and ethnic tensions: 'Lebanon’s total dissolution into five provinces serves as a precedent for the entire Arab world including Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and the Arabian peninsula and is already following that track...'"

Oded Yinon

OK, so, now, what's the down-side...?

In actuality...

Greedy?

Not really.

The Jews don't want it all...

Just this...

...hell, they're most of the way there already, and getting closer every year.

And, once they have it, they'll be content; not giving a rat's ass what happens outside their borders, so long as those outsiders don't mess with Israel.

"You're a page or two behind in your Zionist play book. Greater Israel starts from the Nile Valley and ends at the Euphrates...

Nonsense.

Do they hope that some of their Muslim-Arab neighbor-states fall apart?

Possibly.

Do they plan on moving-in after the fall and taking control of the land, to be settled by Jews, so thereby incorporating those land-masses as part of Greater Israel?

Doubtful.

No matter how many feverish, paranoid, delusional citations come crawling out of the wood-work.

They just want what was theirs, 2,000 years ago - the combined area of the Kingdoms of old Judah and newer Israel.

Which that map pretty much defines.

They won't need more, for a long time to come.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is the nature of conflict.

Why should the Palestinians get the boot because of what happened in Europe?

(COMMENT)

The Palestinians did not "get the boot because of what happened in Europe" as you say. They opened up hostilities and lost control.

The Palestinians opened up hostilities when they went to Europe and attacked the Zionists?

Rocco, you are a hoot!

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[georgephillip]

OK, so, now, what's the down-side...?

In actuality...

Greedy?

Not really.

The Jews don't want it all...

Just this...

...hell, they're most of the way there already, and getting closer every year.

And, once they have it, they'll be content; not giving a rat's ass what happens outside their borders, so long as those outsiders don't mess with Israel.

"You're a page or two behind in your Zionist play book. Greater Israel starts from the Nile Valley and ends at the Euphrates...

Nonsense.

Do they hope that some of their Muslim-Arab neighbor-states fall apart?

Possibly.

Do they plan on moving-in after the fall and taking control of the land, to be settled by Jews, so thereby incorporating those land-masses as part of Greater Israel?

Doubtful.

No matter how many feverish, paranoid, delusional citations come crawling out of the wood-work.

They just want what was theirs, 2,000 years ago - the combined area of the Kingdoms of old Judah and newer Israel.

Which that map pretty much defines.

They won't need more, for a long time to come.

You still haven't proven that Jews, alone among all nations of this planet, have any moral or legal right to "what was theirs 2000 years ago." Spare me the funny photos of big scary tanks and killer Jews with painted faces.

 

[Hoffstra]

A PALESTINIAN MYTH - The so said NAKBA - YouTube

Nakba denial is as bad or WORSE than Holocaust denial!!!!

 

[Hoffstra]

Nonsense.

Do they hope that some of their Muslim-Arab neighbor-states fall apart?

Possibly.

Do they plan on moving-in after the fall and taking control of the land, to be settled by Jews, so thereby incorporating those land-masses as part of Greater Israel?

Doubtful.

No matter how many feverish, paranoid, delusional citations come crawling out of the wood-work.

They just want what was theirs, 2,000 years ago - the combined area of the Kingdoms of old Judah and newer Israel.

Which that map pretty much defines.

They won't need more, for a long time to come.

sorry bro, but there is a logical statute of limitations on how long after losing land, a culture can rightfully expect it back.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Maybe you didn't read it all.

The Palestinians opened up hostilities when they went to Europe and attacked the Zionists?

Rocco, you are a hoot!

(COMMENT)

Maybe I said:

If there was a culture that had adopted a holocaust-like strategy, it was the Arab Higher Committee ("wipe them out – man women and child"). The Palestinians did not "get the boot because of what happened in Europe" - but because of what they threatened to do in 1949 (and still promote today). And in 1949, with the events of Auschwitz, Belzec, Chelmno, Dachau, Majdanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka, still very much fresh in their mind, I don't quite blame them.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Maybe you didn't read it all.

The Palestinians opened up hostilities when they went to Europe and attacked the Zionists?

Rocco, you are a hoot!

(COMMENT)

Maybe I said:

If there was a culture that had adopted a holocaust-like strategy, it was the Arab Higher Committee ("wipe them out – man women and child"). The Palestinians did not "get the boot because of what happened in Europe" - but because of what they threatened to do in 1949 (and still promote today). And in 1949, with the events of Auschwitz, Belzec, Chelmno, Dachau, Majdanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka, still very much fresh in their mind, I don't quite blame them.

Most Respectfully,
R

Why do you always criticize the Palestinians for self defense?

 

[Kondor3]

"...You still haven't proven that Jews, alone among all nations of this planet, have any moral or legal right to "what was theirs 2000 years ago..."

Victory on the battlefield is all that is required.

Made doubly-sweet when you were attacked by your opponents and five other peoples for merely accepting United Nations plans in the first place...

And then winning against astounding odds.

What part of 'Victory on the battlefield changes everything' do you not understand?

The old legalities of the 1930s and 1940s are absolutely meaningless and are now as dead as Julius Caesar.

Legal?

Fuck your old 1930s-1940s "legal".

The Palestinians have been sitting in shit-hole refugee camps for 65 years indulging in that particular pointless circle-jerk.

Let's just cut through all the bullshit.

The land has changed hands - permanently.

And the new owners are far bigger badasses than 'you' guys.

Badges?



We don't got to show you no stinking badges!

If you want it back, you must come take it.

If you can.

Love to see you try.

 

[Hoffstra]

Victory on the battlefield is all that is required.

so you admit that the Muslims rightfully ruled Palestine for 1,300 years?

or do you have one rule for Jews and another rule for Muslims.

 

[Kondor3]

Victory on the battlefield is all that is required.

so you admit that the Muslims rightfully ruled Palestine for 1,300 years?

or do you have one rule for Jews and another rule for Muslims.

I don't admit shit.

I admit that the Muslims stole the land out from under the remaining Jews living in Palestine-Judea and stole the land out from under the Eastern Empire (Byzantines).

I admit that the Turks stole the land out from under the Thieving Arabs as the Ottomans consolidated their grip on the Eastern Med.

I admit that the scattered, rag-tag collection of natives had their asses kicked time and again by both Different-Believers and their own Co-Religionists...

I admit that the scattered, rag-tag collection of sheep-herders couldn't rule themselves if they tried, much less The Land...

I admit that the Brits took over the rule of that scattered, rag-tag collection of sheep-<bleep>ers from the Ottomans, because the Brits, too, knew that those sheep-<bleep>ers would fuck things up faster than a fly is drawn to camel shit....

I admit that the Jews had a far, far superior cultural and societal and religious collection of organizations and organizational and political skills and that they had been legally buying-up land in Palestine for 70-80 years prior to 1848...

I admit that the Palestinians didn't figure that out until very late in the game and didn't act on it until even later, as haphazardly disorganized as they were...

I admit that the Jews latched onto the UN Partition Plan in a genuine and grateful fashion, as quickly as it was offered, and that they based their own Declaration of Statehood upon that International Proposal, coming off looking like the epitome of reasonableness...

I admit that the Jews, surprisingly, after so many years of defeats and setbacks and disasters, finally managed to get their heads out of their asses and do what was needed to defend themselves and to carve-out a slice of the world for themselves, in such a way so that most of the rest of the world would not mind too much...

I admit that after a close call, the Jews managed to find a way to survive after all...

I admit that Nature seems to have DE-selected the so-called Palestinians, who are now destined to scatter to the four winds and to be re-aborbed into the neighboring Arab-Muslim populations from which their ancestors invaded and immigrated, several centuries ago...

I admit that we are dealing with survival of the fittest, and that the Palestinians do not meet that rigid criteria set down by Nature...

Best to toss in the towel, while you still have a towel to toss, and pack up, and move someplace else, and start new lives, and be happy...

Nobody wants to deny you the chance to be happy...

It's just that you can no longer do so where you are now...

 

[Hoffstra]

Victory on the battlefield is all that is required.

so you admit that the Muslims rightfully ruled Palestine for 1,300 years?

or do you have one rule for Jews and another rule for Muslims.

I don't admit shit.

I admit that the Muslims stole the land out from under the remaining Jews living in Palestine-Judea and stole the land out from under the Eastern Empire (Byzantines)...

stole?

no sir. You said it yourself. "VICTORY ON THE BATTLEFIELD IS ALL THAT IS REQUIRED"

so either you believe that the Muslims rightfully owned & controlled Palestine, or that the Jews stole Palestine from the Muslims.

you can't have it both ways, silly.

 

[Hoffstra]

Kondor believes that the Jews rightfully control Palestine because, "victory on the battlefield is all that is required".

Yet he thinks that when the Muslims conquered the land from the Byzantines and then again from the Crusaders, they "stole it".

lolol!!!!!!!

 

[Hoffstra]

....I admit that the scattered, rag-tag collection of sheep-herders couldn't rule themselves if they tried, much less The Land...

I admit that the Brits took over the rule of that scattered, rag-tag collection of sheep-<bleep>ers from the Ottomans, because the Brits, too, knew that those sheep-<bleep>ers would fuck things up faster than a fly is drawn to camel shit......

so not only do you call for ethnic cleansing against the Arabs, but you clearly have racist feelings towards Arabs.