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Hamas and Fatah formed a Unity government with the intent of becoming more of a political movement, than a militant one. But Israel made up some BS reason about the 3 teens and attacked Gaza with the intent of breaking up this newly formed government.Tried what last summer? Using Arab police or soldiers?
Ergo, Israel does not want the Palestinians to form a peaceful government.
Yeppers. Israel FORCED them into a Civil War so they could kill each other in the streets over the new split in the Government that SECURED that autonomy and future promise for Gaza..
Was Israel and the US that did that -- according to apologists for the chronically bad choices made by the Palis themselves.
the "INTENT"-----the intent of the formers of unity government between
fatah and hamas was ???? "less militancy" ???? one terrorist
organization plus one terrorist organization = a big pile of
peaceniks????
Nothing but conjecture and innuendo on your part.Putting the boy on the hood was pretty clever actually if he was previously a stone-thrower. Not to get him hurt, but as a deterrent. After all, if he was grabbed from the mob in the first place, he was safer with the Israelis.
I'll save the rest of my response to that, for when I'm in the Flame Zone.
There are no safe areas in Gaza.Plenty of land in Gaza to create safe evac areas for times when Hamas knows Israel is coming. Fact that don't prepare for evacs and get the UN to kick in stock and supplies for these safe zones just speaks to their priorities. They are not preparing for war, they are preparing to make Israel look like the aggressor..
That's still not using the hospital as a shield.I've seen the aerials of the rocket launches close to the hospital. Was not more than 100 yards. AND -- you have to ask yourself --- where was this crap STORED? Wanna wager?
If Israel wanted peace, they wouldn't be the ones breaking all the ceasefires.But nonetheless -- this shit will continue. Because SOMEHOW it's all the Palis can think of to buy peace and tranquility for their next generation..
Is annexation and one state truly workable?
Its problematic....but then so is every other idea. It is however an approach that hasn't been as fully explored as others. I think on the West Bank front its more viable. On Gaza? Not so much.
Gaza tends to be more militant, the West Bank less so. Any two state solution is going to run into major problems because of Israel's insistence of making Jerusalem its capital, despite the fact that it sits in the center of territory that isn't its own. It would be like the US making Ottawa its capital. And canada saying otherwise.
Such an arrangement necessitates constant conflict as unless everyone visiting is airdropped, they would have to pass through non-israeli territory to get to their own capital. Tel Aviv makes more sense logistically. But the israeli's want Jerusalem.
Well, annex it. The territory and the entire west bank then becomes Israeli territory.Israel would love the territory. Its the source of most of the water used in the lower lands to the west. It includes Jerusalem and restores Israel to much of its Torah era boundaries.
The main issue is the people. Israel wants to maintain a 'uniquely Jewish character'. By annexing the territory they'd also have to annex the people. And that means many, many more Arab Israelis.
However......Arab Israelies are generally pretty peaceful. And Israel is going to have to do something about the people eventually. The longer it waits the more severe the issues will become. And have become.
By making them Arab Israelies with most rights, they remove much of the impetus of rebellion. You might even be able to get Arab financial support for Arab Israeli economic initiatives to improve the employment and education situation of west bank arabs.
Gaza....is a whole different ball of wax. But with Gaza they can literally quarenteen it. Not so much with the West Bank.
I admit, I haven't given serious thought to a one-state solution and have always supported 2 states but now that seems increasingly unlikely.
Questions though remain on rights because Israel wants to maintain it's "uniquely Jewish character" which is increasingly at odds with maintaining a secular government. You state "most rights" - what rights would they not have?
I wouldn't sweat the "uniquely Jewish character" part too much. We have the same discussion here with folks about the "uniquely Christian character" of the USA. One reason that Israel never formalized a Constitution is that they suppressed this secular -- religious battle and moved beyond it. And the number of Arabs, Christians, in the Knesset shows that. I think you do the "2 state" solution and then work to NORMALIZE borders and green cards and migration so that eventually -- in 2340 -- it no longer matters.
Actually, I agree about the "Jewish character" - but there is substantial pushback from the ultra religious groups to increase the role of religion in governance that is at odds with the secular Israeli's. I don't think they have moved beyond it at all and that is problematic in a religious and ethnically pluralistic society.
Hamas and Fatah formed a Unity government with the intent of becoming more of a political movement, than a militant one. But Israel made up some BS reason about the 3 teens and attacked Gaza with the intent of breaking up this newly formed government.Tried what last summer? Using Arab police or soldiers?
Ergo, Israel does not want the Palestinians to form a peaceful government.
Yeppers. Israel FORCED them into a Civil War so they could kill each other in the streets over the new split in the Government that SECURED that autonomy and future promise for Gaza..
Was Israel and the US that did that -- according to apologists for the chronically bad choices made by the Palis themselves.
the "INTENT"-----the intent of the formers of unity government between
fatah and hamas was ???? "less militancy" ???? one terrorist
organization plus one terrorist organization = a big pile of
peaceniks????
Actually -- one of Israels' biggest miscalculations in this sad tale -- was considering Hamas in Gaza to be the lesser evil and encouraging them to keep doing good deeds there while Israel continues to pound on Fatah.
Large part of the miscalculation there involves Iran and their influence on Hamas.
Hamas and Fatah formed a Unity government with the intent of becoming more of a political movement, than a militant one. But Israel made up some BS reason about the 3 teens and attacked Gaza with the intent of breaking up this newly formed government.Tried what last summer? Using Arab police or soldiers?
Ergo, Israel does not want the Palestinians to form a peaceful government.
Yeppers. Israel FORCED them into a Civil War so they could kill each other in the streets over the new split in the Government that SECURED that autonomy and future promise for Gaza..
Was Israel and the US that did that -- according to apologists for the chronically bad choices made by the Palis themselves.
the "INTENT"-----the intent of the formers of unity government between
fatah and hamas was ???? "less militancy" ???? one terrorist
organization plus one terrorist organization = a big pile of
peaceniks????
Actually -- one of Israels' biggest miscalculations in this sad tale -- was considering Hamas in Gaza to be the lesser evil and encouraging them to keep doing good deeds there while Israel continues to pound on Fatah.
Large part of the miscalculation there involves Iran and their influence on Hamas.
Hamas and Fatah formed a Unity government with the intent of becoming more of a political movement, than a militant one. But Israel made up some BS reason about the 3 teens and attacked Gaza with the intent of breaking up this newly formed government.Tried what last summer? Using Arab police or soldiers?
Ergo, Israel does not want the Palestinians to form a peaceful government.
Yeppers. Israel FORCED them into a Civil War so they could kill each other in the streets over the new split in the Government that SECURED that autonomy and future promise for Gaza..
Was Israel and the US that did that -- according to apologists for the chronically bad choices made by the Palis themselves.
the "INTENT"-----the intent of the formers of unity government between
fatah and hamas was ???? "less militancy" ???? one terrorist
organization plus one terrorist organization = a big pile of
peaceniks????
Actually -- one of Israels' biggest miscalculations in this sad tale -- was considering Hamas in Gaza to be the lesser evil and encouraging them to keep doing good deeds there while Israel continues to pound on Fatah.
Large part of the miscalculation there involves Iran and their influence on Hamas.
a lesser evil than what?
Hamas and Fatah formed a Unity government with the intent of becoming more of a political movement, than a militant one. But Israel made up some BS reason about the 3 teens and attacked Gaza with the intent of breaking up this newly formed government.
Ergo, Israel does not want the Palestinians to form a peaceful government.
Yeppers. Israel FORCED them into a Civil War so they could kill each other in the streets over the new split in the Government that SECURED that autonomy and future promise for Gaza..
Was Israel and the US that did that -- according to apologists for the chronically bad choices made by the Palis themselves.
the "INTENT"-----the intent of the formers of unity government between
fatah and hamas was ???? "less militancy" ???? one terrorist
organization plus one terrorist organization = a big pile of
peaceniks????
Actually -- one of Israels' biggest miscalculations in this sad tale -- was considering Hamas in Gaza to be the lesser evil and encouraging them to keep doing good deeds there while Israel continues to pound on Fatah.
Large part of the miscalculation there involves Iran and their influence on Hamas.
a lesser evil than what?
The history of Pali leadership to that point had been Fatah and the PLO.. Those were the traditional "irritants" to Israel. So when Hamas started to do reasonable social work in Gaza --- the Israelis were more focused on Fatah as the opponents. And they considered Hamas 'the more workable partner' (at least as far as the Hamas leaders in Gaza was concerned)
Nothing but conjecture and innuendo on your part.Putting the boy on the hood was pretty clever actually if he was previously a stone-thrower. Not to get him hurt, but as a deterrent. After all, if he was grabbed from the mob in the first place, he was safer with the Israelis.
I'll save the rest of my response to that, for when I'm in the Flame Zone.
There are no safe areas in Gaza.Plenty of land in Gaza to create safe evac areas for times when Hamas knows Israel is coming. Fact that don't prepare for evacs and get the UN to kick in stock and supplies for these safe zones just speaks to their priorities. They are not preparing for war, they are preparing to make Israel look like the aggressor..
That's still not using the hospital as a shield.I've seen the aerials of the rocket launches close to the hospital. Was not more than 100 yards. AND -- you have to ask yourself --- where was this crap STORED? Wanna wager?
If Israel wanted peace, they wouldn't be the ones breaking all the ceasefires.But nonetheless -- this shit will continue. Because SOMEHOW it's all the Palis can think of to buy peace and tranquility for their next generation..
You said there are no "safe areas" in Gaza for evacuations. Why IS THAT Billo??
Yeppers. Israel FORCED them into a Civil War so they could kill each other in the streets over the new split in the Government that SECURED that autonomy and future promise for Gaza..
Was Israel and the US that did that -- according to apologists for the chronically bad choices made by the Palis themselves.
the "INTENT"-----the intent of the formers of unity government between
fatah and hamas was ???? "less militancy" ???? one terrorist
organization plus one terrorist organization = a big pile of
peaceniks????
Actually -- one of Israels' biggest miscalculations in this sad tale -- was considering Hamas in Gaza to be the lesser evil and encouraging them to keep doing good deeds there while Israel continues to pound on Fatah.
Large part of the miscalculation there involves Iran and their influence on Hamas.
a lesser evil than what?
The history of Pali leadership to that point had been Fatah and the PLO.. Those were the traditional "irritants" to Israel. So when Hamas started to do reasonable social work in Gaza --- the Israelis were more focused on Fatah as the opponents. And they considered Hamas 'the more workable partner' (at least as far as the Hamas leaders in Gaza was concerned)
well, if you mean that maybe they didn't expect hamas to usurp fatah's position by doing that charity work, that might be true.
but they always knew hamas was a terrorist group and thought they could do business with fatah... which they probably could have but for the terrorists at hamas.
the "INTENT"-----the intent of the formers of unity government between
fatah and hamas was ???? "less militancy" ???? one terrorist
organization plus one terrorist organization = a big pile of
peaceniks????
Actually -- one of Israels' biggest miscalculations in this sad tale -- was considering Hamas in Gaza to be the lesser evil and encouraging them to keep doing good deeds there while Israel continues to pound on Fatah.
Large part of the miscalculation there involves Iran and their influence on Hamas.
a lesser evil than what?
The history of Pali leadership to that point had been Fatah and the PLO.. Those were the traditional "irritants" to Israel. So when Hamas started to do reasonable social work in Gaza --- the Israelis were more focused on Fatah as the opponents. And they considered Hamas 'the more workable partner' (at least as far as the Hamas leaders in Gaza was concerned)
well, if you mean that maybe they didn't expect hamas to usurp fatah's position by doing that charity work, that might be true.
but they always knew hamas was a terrorist group and thought they could do business with fatah... which they probably could have but for the terrorists at hamas.
I'm talking about the period before the Palestinian Authority was starting to function under Abbas. CLEARLY there was GREAT leadership and vision from Fatah in setting that up.. And it earned the respect of Israel.
But PRIOR to that time, Hamas in Gaza was a collection of intellectual folks wanting to do mostly good deeds for the people under military occupation there. And Israel actually conferred them and encouraged them.
Like iRosie said -- "the lesser of 2 evils" or trying to add up TWO terrorist groups to get peace. Things did change in that recent history and took a lot of folks by surprise.
the "INTENT"-----the intent of the formers of unity government between
fatah and hamas was ???? "less militancy" ???? one terrorist
organization plus one terrorist organization = a big pile of
peaceniks????
Actually -- one of Israels' biggest miscalculations in this sad tale -- was considering Hamas in Gaza to be the lesser evil and encouraging them to keep doing good deeds there while Israel continues to pound on Fatah.
Large part of the miscalculation there involves Iran and their influence on Hamas.
a lesser evil than what?
The history of Pali leadership to that point had been Fatah and the PLO.. Those were the traditional "irritants" to Israel. So when Hamas started to do reasonable social work in Gaza --- the Israelis were more focused on Fatah as the opponents. And they considered Hamas 'the more workable partner' (at least as far as the Hamas leaders in Gaza was concerned)
well, if you mean that maybe they didn't expect hamas to usurp fatah's position by doing that charity work, that might be true.
but they always knew hamas was a terrorist group and thought they could do business with fatah... which they probably could have but for the terrorists at hamas.
I'm talking about the period before the Palestinian Authority was starting to function under Abbas. CLEARLY there was GREAT leadership and vision from Fatah in setting that up.. And it earned the respect of Israel.
But PRIOR to that time, Hamas in Gaza was a collection of intellectual folks wanting to do mostly good deeds for the people under military occupation there. And Israel actually conferred them and encouraged them.
Like iRosie said -- "the lesser of 2 evils" or trying to add up TWO terrorist groups to get peace. Things did change in that recent history and took a lot of folks by surprise.
Israel didn't force them into a civil war, it just bombed the crap out of Gaza, killing over 2000 innocent civilians and leaving over 10,000 people homeless.Yeppers. Israel FORCED them into a Civil War so they could kill each other in the streets over the new split in the Government that SECURED that autonomy and future promise for Gaza..
Was Israel and the US that did that -- according to apologists for the chronically bad choices made by the Palis themselves.
Israel has never tried to make peace, that is just non-sense.you might be right. but maybe you're going back further than I remember on that particular issue.
what I will say, is that Israel has tried for decades to make peace. Arafat said he wanted to make a deal when Clinton was president but that if he did he'd "be drinking tea with Rabin".
he is drinking tea with rabin anyway. he should have been braver.
Because Israel will not allow the construction materials in to Gaza to build bomb shelters.You said there are no "safe areas" in Gaza for evacuations. Why IS THAT Billo??
That was a bogus ceasefire that Egypt and Israel negotiated which didn't include any members of Hamas during the talks. A ceasefire needs to be negotiated between the party's that are fighting. Egypt was not fighting Israel.Should really be asking what the Gazans wanted during that period when the peace process died..
Gaza Public Rejects Hamas, Wants Ceasefire
Today's headlines are that Hamas has just rejected Egypt's offer of a ceasefire with Israel and instead continues to fire rockets indiscriminately at Israeli towns and cities. Less known is a crucial fact: the people of Gaza are solidly against these Hamas policies. Indeed, by a very large majority, they oppose Hamas rule altogether.
These findings are based on a June 15-17 survey by a highly respected Palestinian pollster, who conducted face-to-face interviews throughout Gaza using standard random geographical probability sampling. The poll included 450 Gazans, yielding a margin of error of approximately 4 percent. This is the only credible Palestinian poll taken since the mid-June West Bank kidnapping incident, Israel's subsequent searches and arrests, and the start of the current crisis (for more on the survey, see PolicyWatch 2276, "New Palestinian Poll Shows Hardline Views, But Some Pragmatism Too").
That was a bogus ceasefire that Egypt and Israel negotiated which didn't include any members of Hamas during the talks. A ceasefire needs to be negotiated between the party's that are fighting. Egypt was not fighting Israel.Should really be asking what the Gazans wanted during that period when the peace process died..
Gaza Public Rejects Hamas, Wants Ceasefire
Today's headlines are that Hamas has just rejected Egypt's offer of a ceasefire with Israel and instead continues to fire rockets indiscriminately at Israeli towns and cities. Less known is a crucial fact: the people of Gaza are solidly against these Hamas policies. Indeed, by a very large majority, they oppose Hamas rule altogether.
These findings are based on a June 15-17 survey by a highly respected Palestinian pollster, who conducted face-to-face interviews throughout Gaza using standard random geographical probability sampling. The poll included 450 Gazans, yielding a margin of error of approximately 4 percent. This is the only credible Palestinian poll taken since the mid-June West Bank kidnapping incident, Israel's subsequent searches and arrests, and the start of the current crisis (for more on the survey, see PolicyWatch 2276, "New Palestinian Poll Shows Hardline Views, But Some Pragmatism Too").
Focus. You weren't talking about your collars.
Thank God I'm not one of those people.
1.5 million Gazans, are not terrorists.
But Israel's attack on Gaza last summer, was State sanctioned terrorism.
They weren't crammed into buildings. That's where these people live.
Over 10,000 of them are now homeless, because of Israeli bombing raids. It's hard to imagine that much destruction was out of military necessity.
Why should they disarm? Are you saying they don't have a right to defend themselves? You need weapons to do that with.
