CDZ Israel and Palestine

[Billo_Really]

Whereas the Goldstone Report said there was no evidence of human shields being used by the Palestinian's, there was evidence of 7 incidents of the IDF using human shields in that last big operation before Protective Edge.

Whoops.

Hamas DID use schools and hospitals in Gaza Strip as 'human shields'

I've already debunked this BS more than once.

From your own link:
'The Israelis kept saying rockets were fired from schools or hospitals when in fact they were fired 200 or 300 meters (yards) away.

​

Firing a rocket 200 meters from a civilian structure, is not the same thing as firing "from that" civilian structure and it is definitely not the definition of a human shield. Putting a civilian in front of you with your rifle barrel on his shoulder advancing into a room, as the IDF does with their "Johnnies", is using a human shield.

This, is a human shield.






This is a human shield.






Firing a weapon two football fields away, is not using human shields.

 

[Billo_Really]

The clues to this Army shrink problems were all over the place. Not a secret. In Israel, he would never been retained. They are smarter than us when it comes to JUSTLY separating threats from the large majority of Arabs that are your neighbors.

Here in this country -- we are too bound up with "fairness" and diversity and it ends up getting folk killed. When you live in a terrorist war zone -- you learn to appreciate who's a friend and who is not.. Actually makes engagement with Israeli Arabs MUCH more honest and open.. Reduces the fights to open public debate rather than shooting up a mess hall..

That's what's needed in the larger debate. You need to go to the mixed Israel/Pali daycare coops, the coalitions of University students between the warring sides and see WHY they don't have any of the venom that plagues our debate here on the forum... You don't stereotype and you don't praise mobs and senseless violence. You find the RATIONAL people and start sorting down from there.

What venom?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Whereas the Goldstone Report said there was no evidence of human shields being used by the Palestinian's, there was evidence of 7 incidents of the IDF using human shields in that last big operation before Protective Edge.

Whoops.

Hamas DID use schools and hospitals in Gaza Strip as 'human shields'

I've already debunked this BS more than once.

From your own link:
'The Israelis kept saying rockets were fired from schools or hospitals when in fact they were fired 200 or 300 meters (yards) away.

​

Firing a rocket 200 meters from a civilian structure, is not the same thing as firing "from that" civilian structure and it is definitely not the definition of a human shield. Putting a civilian in front of you with your rifle barrel on his shoulder advancing into a room, as the IDF does with their "Johnnies", is using a human shield.

This, is a human shield.






This is a human shield.






Firing a weapon two football fields away, is not using human shields.

And you think the Israeli government lets them get away with it? Answer me truthfully.

 

[TemplarKormac]

You're looking under the wrong collar.

I don't wear collars. Only people whose viewpoints are bound by propaganda do. Quite the short leash.

Palestinian's are not terrorists.

Not all of them are, some of them are most certainly terrorists. I already told you that.

And destroying an entire building of innocent civilians, is a war crime.

Cramming buildings with innocent civilians and baiting Israeli warplanes into bombing them is a war crime. If we use your logic.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Whereas the Goldstone Report said there was no evidence of human shields being used by the Palestinian's, there was evidence of 7 incidents of the IDF using human shields in that last big operation before Protective Edge.

Whoops.

Hamas DID use schools and hospitals in Gaza Strip as 'human shields'

I've already debunked this BS more than once.

From your own link:
'The Israelis kept saying rockets were fired from schools or hospitals when in fact they were fired 200 or 300 meters (yards) away.

​

Firing a rocket 200 meters from a civilian structure, is not the same thing as firing "from that" civilian structure and it is definitely not the definition of a human shield. Putting a civilian in front of you with your rifle barrel on his shoulder advancing into a room, as the IDF does with their "Johnnies", is using a human shield.

This, is a human shield.






This is a human shield.






Firing a weapon two football fields away, is not using human shields.

And you think the Israeli government lets them get away with it? Answer me truthfully.

Meanwhile:

Hamas exploitation of civilians as human shields: Photographic evidence

EU calls on Hamas to disarm, condemns use of civilians as shields

Gaza reporters’ tweets: Hamas using human shields

Journalists threatened by Hamas for reporting use of human shields

Middle east - Exclusive: Hamas rocket launch pad lies near Gaza homes

Hamas acknowledges its forces fired rockets at Israel from civilian areas - Diplomacy and Defense

Finnish TV: Rockets from Gaza hospital

Watch: Hamas Spokesman Encourages Using Civilians as Shields

 

[TemplarKormac]

It's also stories like these that make me doubt the veracity of any claim made by pro-Palestinian supporters:

Why would the NY Times publish an uncorroborated allegation from the son of a top Hamas official?

 

[flacaltenn]

Seeing an Arab Israeli soldier backing down stone throwing teens might be a better deal. Kinda like the debate we have here about black representation on our police forces. Also why a brand new Palestine needs an interim govt provided by Arab partners. Because the focus on the "occupying force" has to be taken off of Israel to get the Palis to do the hard work of forming a nation... Let the "occupiers" be a neighboring Arab coalition in partnership with Israel -- and you defuse the focus on this "occupation gone badly"..

They tried that last summer and Israel attacked.

Tried what last summer? Using Arab police or soldiers?

 

[flacaltenn]

Whereas the Goldstone Report said there was no evidence of human shields being used by the Palestinian's, there was evidence of 7 incidents of the IDF using human shields in that last big operation before Protective Edge.

Whoops.

Hamas DID use schools and hospitals in Gaza Strip as 'human shields'

I've already debunked this BS more than once.

From your own link:
'The Israelis kept saying rockets were fired from schools or hospitals when in fact they were fired 200 or 300 meters (yards) away.

​

Firing a rocket 200 meters from a civilian structure, is not the same thing as firing "from that" civilian structure and it is definitely not the definition of a human shield. Putting a civilian in front of you with your rifle barrel on his shoulder advancing into a room, as the IDF does with their "Johnnies", is using a human shield.

This, is a human shield.






This is a human shield.






Firing a weapon two football fields away, is not using human shields.

Putting the boy on the hood was pretty clever actually if he was previously a stone-thrower. Not to get him hurt, but as a deterrent. After all, if he was grabbed from the mob in the first place, he was safer with the Israelis.

Plenty of land in Gaza to create safe evac areas for times when Hamas knows Israel is coming. Fact that don't prepare for evacs and get the UN to kick in stock and supplies for these safe zones just speaks to their priorities. They are not preparing for war, they are preparing to make Israel look like the aggressor..

I've seen the aerials of the rocket launches close to the hospital. Was not more than 100 yards. AND -- you have to ask yourself --- where was this crap STORED? Wanna wager?

But nonetheless -- this shit will continue. Because SOMEHOW it's all the Palis can think of to buy peace and tranquility for their next generation..

 

[Billo_Really]

And you think the Israeli government lets them get away with it? Answer me truthfully.

Technically, no. 6% of cases receive an indictment.

roughly 94% of investigations against Israeli soldiers suspected of violent activity against Palestinians and their property are closed without indictment.​

 

[Billo_Really]

I don't wear collars.

Focus. You weren't talking about your collars.

Only people whose viewpoints are bound by propaganda do. Quite the short leash.

Thank God I'm not one of those people.

Not all of them are, some of them are most certainly terrorists. I already told you that.

1.5 million Gazans, are not terrorists.

But Israel's attack on Gaza last summer, was State sanctioned terrorism.

Cramming buildings with innocent civilians and baiting Israeli warplanes into bombing them is a war crime. If we use your logic.

They weren't crammed into buildings. That's where these people live. Or used to live. Over 10,000 of them are now homeless, because of Israeli bombing raids. It's hard to imagine that much destruction was out of military necessity.

 

[Billo_Really]

Meanwhile:

Hamas exploitation of civilians as human shields: Photographic evidence

None of that shows a rocket being fired from a civilian structure. But there are a lot of photographic evidence of Israel deliberately firing at civilian structures.

EU calls on Hamas to disarm, condemns use of civilians as shields

They were going to do that with the formation of their Unity government with Fatah last summer, but Israel attacked.

Why should they disarm? Are you saying they don't have a right to defend themselves? You need weapons to do that with.

Gaza reporters’ tweets: Hamas using human shields

These reporters are accused of fabricating evidence. And I find these tweets a little suspect, since Israel doesn't allow foreign journalists into the area of conflict anyway.

Journalists threatened by Hamas for reporting use of human shields

See above.

Middle east - Exclusive: Hamas rocket launch pad lies near Gaza homes

We've already discussed this one.

Hamas acknowledges its forces fired rockets at Israel from civilian areas - Diplomacy and Defense

See above.

Finnish TV: Rockets from Gaza hospital

An Hamas official getting interviewed on Finnish TV, is not the same thing as firing a rocket 200 meters away.

Watch: Hamas Spokesman Encourages Using Civilians as Shields

Hamas officials encouraging people to stand up to Israeli aggression, is not using human shields.

 

[Billo_Really]

Tried what last summer? Using Arab police or soldiers?

Hamas and Fatah formed a Unity government with the intent of becoming more of a political movement, than a militant one. But Israel made up some BS reason about the 3 teens and attacked Gaza with the intent of breaking up this newly formed government.

Ergo, Israel does not want the Palestinians to form a peaceful government.

 

[Billo_Really]

Putting the boy on the hood was pretty clever actually if he was previously a stone-thrower. Not to get him hurt, but as a deterrent. After all, if he was grabbed from the mob in the first place, he was safer with the Israelis.

Nothing but conjecture and innuendo on your part.

I'll save the rest of my response to that, for when I'm in the Flame Zone.

Plenty of land in Gaza to create safe evac areas for times when Hamas knows Israel is coming. Fact that don't prepare for evacs and get the UN to kick in stock and supplies for these safe zones just speaks to their priorities. They are not preparing for war, they are preparing to make Israel look like the aggressor..

There are no safe areas in Gaza.

I've seen the aerials of the rocket launches close to the hospital. Was not more than 100 yards. AND -- you have to ask yourself --- where was this crap STORED? Wanna wager?

That's still not using the hospital as a shield.

But nonetheless -- this shit will continue. Because SOMEHOW it's all the Palis can think of to buy peace and tranquility for their next generation..

If Israel wanted peace, they wouldn't be the ones breaking all the ceasefires.

 

[irosie91]

And you think the Israeli government lets them get away with it? Answer me truthfully.

Technically, no. 6% of cases receive an indictment.

roughly 94% of investigations against Israeli soldiers suspected of violent activity against Palestinians and their property are closed without indictment.​

so? During the several weeks after the 9-11-01 incident ----I happened
to be working in New York City-----with significant interaction with both the muslim
community AND the police department--------the precincts were FLOODED with
muslim girls who insisted the were "attacked"------in response to a CAIR directive ----
"RE PORT ANYTHING ---even a nasty glance". Thousands of complaints-----it
UPPED the stats ------but somehow none of these events led to an indictment-----
since they did not happen. The typical complaint was "someone pulled my
head scarf" I lived in NYC for many years------I would not consider
reporting such a non-event to the cops-------they would not take "the case"

 

[irosie91]

Tried what last summer? Using Arab police or soldiers?

Hamas and Fatah formed a Unity government with the intent of becoming more of a political movement, than a militant one. But Israel made up some BS reason about the 3 teens and attacked Gaza with the intent of breaking up this newly formed government.

Ergo, Israel does not want the Palestinians to form a peaceful government.

not even worth a response-------

 

[M14 Shooter]

Summary of the problem:



The solution should be obvious.

 

[flacaltenn]

Tried what last summer? Using Arab police or soldiers?

Hamas and Fatah formed a Unity government with the intent of becoming more of a political movement, than a militant one. But Israel made up some BS reason about the 3 teens and attacked Gaza with the intent of breaking up this newly formed government.

Ergo, Israel does not want the Palestinians to form a peaceful government.

Yeppers. Israel FORCED them into a Civil War so they could kill each other in the streets over the new split in the Government that SECURED that autonomy and future promise for Gaza..

Was Israel and the US that did that -- according to apologists for the chronically bad choices made by the Palis themselves.

 

[flacaltenn]

I don't wear collars.

Focus. You weren't talking about your collars.

Only people whose viewpoints are bound by propaganda do. Quite the short leash.

Thank God I'm not one of those people.

Not all of them are, some of them are most certainly terrorists. I already told you that.

1.5 million Gazans, are not terrorists.

But Israel's attack on Gaza last summer, was State sanctioned terrorism.

Cramming buildings with innocent civilians and baiting Israeli warplanes into bombing them is a war crime. If we use your logic.

They weren't crammed into buildings. That's where these people live. Or used to live. Over 10,000 of them are now homeless, because of Israeli bombing raids. It's hard to imagine that much destruction was out of military necessity.

Should really be asking what the Gazans wanted during that period when the peace process died..

Gaza Public Rejects Hamas, Wants Ceasefire

Today's headlines are that Hamas has just rejected Egypt's offer of a ceasefire with Israel and instead continues to fire rockets indiscriminately at Israeli towns and cities. Less known is a crucial fact: the people of Gaza are solidly against these Hamas policies. Indeed, by a very large majority, they oppose Hamas rule altogether.

These findings are based on a June 15-17 survey by a highly respected Palestinian pollster, who conducted face-to-face interviews throughout Gaza using standard random geographical probability sampling. The poll included 450 Gazans, yielding a margin of error of approximately 4 percent. This is the only credible Palestinian poll taken since the mid-June West Bank kidnapping incident, Israel's subsequent searches and arrests, and the start of the current crisis (for more on the survey, see PolicyWatch 2276, "New Palestinian Poll Shows Hardline Views, But Some Pragmatism Too").

 

[irosie91]

Tried what last summer? Using Arab police or soldiers?

Hamas and Fatah formed a Unity government with the intent of becoming more of a political movement, than a militant one. But Israel made up some BS reason about the 3 teens and attacked Gaza with the intent of breaking up this newly formed government.

Ergo, Israel does not want the Palestinians to form a peaceful government.

Yeppers. Israel FORCED them into a Civil War so they could kill each other in the streets over the new split in the Government that SECURED that autonomy and future promise for Gaza..

Was Israel and the US that did that -- according to apologists for the chronically bad choices made by the Palis themselves.

the "INTENT"-----the intent of the formers of unity government between
fatah and hamas was ???? "less militancy" ???? one terrorist
organization plus one terrorist organization = a big pile of
peaceniks????

 

[flacaltenn]

From the link in my last post --------

GAZANS WANTED A CEASEFIRE EVEN AS HAMAS STARTED FIRING ROCKETS
As tensions mounted and Hamas and other Gazan factions began to step up rocket fire last month, the people of that territory were heavily in favor of a ceasefire -- 70 percent of the poll respondents agreed or strongly agreed with the statement "Hamas should maintain a ceasefire with Israel in both Gaza and the West Bank." This attitude is corroborated by the 73 percent of Gazans who said Palestinians should adopt "proposals for (nonviolent) popular resistance against the occupation." Similarly, when asked if Hamas should accept Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas's position that the new unity government renounce violence against Israel, a clear majority (57 percent) answered in the affirmative.

HAMAS FAILING TO DELIVER
The poll also demonstrates that Gazans are unhappy with Hamas governance -- on multiple levels. A large majority (71 percent) considered crime to be a "significant" problem. Two-thirds said that another significant problem was official corruption. Moreover, a large majority (78 percent) found the "presence of Palestinian militias that are not organized under the formal security structure" to be at least a "moderate" problem.

So why are you blaming the US and Israel for the breakdown of Gazan Autonomy process? And why are you not listening Billo --- to what the Palis ACTUALLY SAY that they want? Is this more about us then them??