CDZ Israel and Palestine

[Billo_Really]

I said nothing about the author. I attacked the source material. The site is actively biased against Israel.

Attacking the source, is attacking the author. One thing it is not, is addressing the claim.

You did but you didn't. Okay.

I quoted you verbatim.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, but if you're going to quote me verbatim, that'll be $4.50 (+tax).

Being that those "white trash settlers" are Israeli, you are thus labeling Israeli citizens as "white trash" when you say "send them back to Israel." Ad hominem and racism all at once.

That's a strawman argument.

I didn't call Israeli citizens "white trash"; for the 4th time, I called the "settlers" white trash.

How many more times are you going to deliberately misquote me?

Well, I said I was leaving 30 minutes ago. This debate has devolved into bickering.

We're in agreement there.

 

[Billo_Really]

Before I leave (for real this time), let's be clear. You're saying the Palestinians are committing violence out of self-defense, but when Israel strikes back, its murder.

Or are you prepared to admit that what Palestine is doing is just as unacceptable?

I'm saying once Israel ends the occupation and blockade, after that, if they receive a rocket, I fully support Israeli retaliation. Militarily.

Until then, its not striking back and its not self defense...........its aggression.

 

[Kondor3]

...What solutions are realistically possible?...

None that all parties will find acceptable, nor even palatable.

Israel is driven to complete its Reconquista of the Holy Land.

Palestinians want the Jews of the region dead, floating face-down in the Mediterranean.

That was the way of it in 1948.

That is the way of it in 2015.

Nothing has changed, from a bottom-line Ultimate Goals perspective, despite protestations to the contrary from both.

And too much blood has been spilled for that to change in the foreseeable future.

A One-State Solution will not work.

A Two-State Solution might have been possible once, but we are years (decades) beyond that tipping point.

That leaves nothing but Elimination of one side or the other.

Elimination, as in Death or Expulsion.

Expulsion is always preferable to Death.

At least, that way, the Losing Side gets to live, and to begin new lives for themselves and their families, elsewhere.

In truth, the Israelis have nearly reached their multi-generational goal, and hold all the cards, and all the military power.

Any Palestinian with two shekels to rub together, and an ounce of brains, is going to concede the Lost Cause, and get his family out of that miserable hole.

For humanitarian reasons, the UN should muster global resources, to relocate those Palestinians who will not or cannot leave on their own, absorbing the cost, and obliging Israel to pony-up a fairly large share, and thus make an end to this insanity - ending the only way it can end under the circumstances. It is time to recognize Reality and be done with this.

 

[RoccoR]

Billo_Really, et al,

My dear Billo_Really, --- you are again spreading disinformation.

It is "almost" universally understood that the Occupying Power (Israel), pursuant to Article 43 of the Hague Regulations and Article 64 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, set the elementary and rudimentary limits to occupying power’s authority in occupied territory; but, also sets the principle obligation --- to restore and ensure public order and safety in occupied territory. It sets the limits the occupier (Israel) may change local laws and initiate new legislation.

It should be understood by the belligerents under occupation that neither The Hague Regulations (THR) nor the Fourth Geneva Convention (GCIV) limits the duration of "effective control" over a foreign territory (how long an occupation may be found necessary to maintain). Nor does International Humanitarian Law (IHL) set any limits to the time span of an occupation may continue.

--- IMPORTANT ---​

The administration of the occupied Palestinian territory (oPt) by the Israelis must attempt to strike a balance between the obligation to restore and maintain public order and security, and the duty to respect the laws in force in oPt (as a goal), while ensuring the safety and security of its own armed forces (an imperative).
​

IHL is meant to strike a balance between Israeli military necessity and humanitarian considerations for the Arab Palestinian. However, there are three areas that need special attention.

• IHL does not allow military endeavors that aim to make permanent changes to occupied territory;
• IHL is not an authority to force people to leave their homes; or to unlawfully seize land and resources from communities.
• IHL has the principle purpose of being a tool for the protection of the life and dignity of civilians.
​

That's not true. Most of the time it's Palestine instigating the violence. You're upset because Israel defends itself.

An occupational force cannot claim self defense.

That's like an assassin telling the cops, after he broke into his targets house and found the home owner putting up more resistance than anticipated, he had no choice but to kill the man in self defense.

(COMMENT)

First, there is no International Law that stipulates that the "Occupying Power cannot claim self-defense." I challenge anyone to produce such a citation.

The Occupying Power (Israel) may exercise its authority over an occupied Palestinian territory (oPt) for as long as it deems necessary to secure its military interests and impose its terms of peace upon the hostile population that has established a long history of criminal behaviors. AND, the combination of Article 43 of THR with Article 64 of GCIV gives the occupying power (Israel) very broad authority over the oPt.

The presence of foreign forces (in this case the Israelis): presupposes the presence of a certain number of foreign troops in the oPt that effective control could not usually be exercised without the continued physical presence of Israeli Forces. The absence of any hostile Arab Palestinians conducting military, paramilitary, insurgency or terrorist operations from the oPt IS THE prerequisite for establishing an end to occupation. This has not been the case relative to the Arab-Israel Conflict in more than 70 years.

There is absolutely no prohibition in any International Law set (THR, GCIV, IHL, etc) that bars the Occupying Power (Israel) from pursuing and capturing the Arab-Palestinian perpetrators of criminal or hostile behaviors that were solely intended to harm the Occupying Power, involving espionage, or serious acts of sabotage against the Israeli military installations, or actions that caused the death of one or more persons; and to hold them accountable to penalties under Article 68 of the GCIV.

Israeli self defense initiatives (detection, exploitation, neutralization) from the individual level to the national security level, is threat based. The Arab-Palestinians declared a Jihad in 1948 and have periodically renewed the right to armed struggle over the seven decades. This is an Article 51 issue in the UN Charter.

REMEMBER: Israel did not occupy the State of Palestine in 1967. It occupied Egyptian and Jordanian territories in the course of self-defense military operations. The Arab-Palestinians attempted to establish their sovereignty while under occupation.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[flacaltenn]

I wonder why Palestinians aren't treated equally in Israel? Let's just think about that for a minute. How do you expect a country to act when each Palestinian could be a potential terrorist? How would that influence their laws? When you're living under constant threat of terrorism day in and day out, you're not going to treat Arabs, much less Palestinians, the same way, and you're sure as hell not going to let them anywhere near the core of your government or in your military.

Don't blame them one bit. The law barring Palestinians from performing military service is a no-brainer. You don't have a clue if one Palestinian soldier in the IDF could take advantage of his status and go on a shooting spree. It's not willful discrimination, it's a lack of trust.

You go from saying there is no apartheid, to explaining why there is apartheid, then finish by defending apartheid laws.

Treating every Palestinian as though they could be a potential terrorist, is "profiling".

Nobody deserves to be treated this way!





Continuing to beat the man, after he's been put in restraints, shows the dark side of Israeli society in full bloom. The IDF in that video remind me of the Gestapo. It is just sick to watch.

But here's the problem, people who can watch that and think nothing of it. Or people who try to defend the actions of the IDF, like it is okay to beat an unarmed man in restraints?

Let's discuss the term apartheid.. Apartheid is a system that keeps folks who want and expect to be full equal citizens from BEING full and equal citizens. Does not apply to Palestinians living in the territorities.. Hardly ANY of them WANT or EXPECT to be granted equal Israeli citizenship..

What your folks actually want and expect is AUTONOMY -- and that's where the discussion should be. They want land, MOST want Israel to disappear, and they dont want to be Israelis.. Can't be apartheid, because the "oppressed" are not asking for equal citizenship.. If they want a nation.. Start BUILDING a national representation. Might take yet another Hamas/Fatah Civil War to accomplish that..

 

[flacaltenn]

So, if that were the case, don't you think using violence to put an end to violence would be...counterproductive? Why would you even think of putting boots on the ground to enforce such a draconian "peace" plan? Such an emotional argument, letting your hatred dictate policy.

"Those evil Israelis will get what's coming to them, you just wait and see!"

And that slight, comparing Israel to Nazi Germany was a very childish thing to say. I think it's about time I ended this conversation with you, you're becoming increasingly agitated. We did well to get this far, but I sense this will only devolve to petty bickering.

Since the Palestinian's have been forced to live under draconian laws for the last 50 years, what's wrong with a draconian solution?

It's crude and ineffective. Does NOTHING to organize or plan for Pali statehood. And it gets people killed for nothing. At LEAST give them a leadership worth dying for FIRST !!!!! Unorganized mobs never rule anything. And it makes no sense to die for a mob movement.

 

[flacaltenn]

Before I leave (for real this time), let's be clear. You're saying the Palestinians are committing violence out of self-defense, but when Israel strikes back, its murder.

Or are you prepared to admit that what Palestine is doing is just as unacceptable?

I'm saying once Israel ends the occupation and blockade, after that, if they receive a rocket, I fully support Israeli retaliation. Militarily.

Until then, its not striking back and its not self defense...........its aggression.

That's exactly the sequence of events when Israel granted autonomy to Gaza. Isn't it? Negotiated in good faith with ONE entity supposedly representing the government of Palestine. And got Hamas instead. And rocket attacks. And terrorist tunnels. No one is stupid enough to go thru the process of removing blockades and promoting trade with a militant faction that has no International credibility as a government..

SO --- you blessed the Israeli retaliation against Hamas in Gaza -- it appears..
Palestinian choices have consequences. They are not listening to you or me. And there's a whole closet full of really bad choices in their house..

 

[TemplarKormac]

Before I leave (for real this time), let's be clear. You're saying the Palestinians are committing violence out of self-defense, but when Israel strikes back, its murder.

Or are you prepared to admit that what Palestine is doing is just as unacceptable?

I'm saying once Israel ends the occupation and blockade, after that, if they receive a rocket, I fully support Israeli retaliation. Militarily.

Until then, its not striking back and its not self defense...........its aggression.

You aren't answering the question. So when Israeli citizens die by Palestinian hands, it's acceptable because "occupation"

Alright then.

 

[Coyote]

Before I leave (for real this time), let's be clear. You're saying the Palestinians are committing violence out of self-defense, but when Israel strikes back, its murder.

Or are you prepared to admit that what Palestine is doing is just as unacceptable?

I'm saying once Israel ends the occupation and blockade, after that, if they receive a rocket, I fully support Israeli retaliation. Militarily.

Until then, its not striking back and its not self defense...........its aggression.

You aren't answering the question. So when Israeli citizens die by Palestinian hands, it's acceptable because "occupation"

Alright then.

It's acceptable if it is a military target.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Before I leave (for real this time), let's be clear. You're saying the Palestinians are committing violence out of self-defense, but when Israel strikes back, its murder.

Or are you prepared to admit that what Palestine is doing is just as unacceptable?

I'm saying once Israel ends the occupation and blockade, after that, if they receive a rocket, I fully support Israeli retaliation. Militarily.

Until then, its not striking back and its not self defense...........its aggression.

You aren't answering the question. So when Israeli citizens die by Palestinian hands, it's acceptable because "occupation"

Alright then.

It's acceptable if it is a military target.

Interesting, but since Israeli civilians aren't military targets, I have a hard time with that assertion. Hence why I said "Israeli citizens" i.e. people who have nothing to do with the conflict.

And before someone else chimes in and says "Israel targets Palestinians civilians too!" Be reminded what the terrorists in Gaza did to the civilians when Israel bombed Gaza.

 

[Billo_Really]

Interesting, but since Israeli civilians aren't military targets, I have a hard time with that assertion. Hence why I said "Israeli citizens" i.e. people who have nothing to do with the conflict.

And before someone else chimes in and says "Israel targets Palestinians civilians too!" Be reminded what the terrorists in Gaza did to the civilians when Israel bombed Gaza.

Funny how Palestinian's are terrorists, but Israeli's are citizens?

Don't broadstroke much, do you?

 

[Billo_Really]

You aren't answering the question. So when Israeli citizens die by Palestinian hands, it's acceptable because "occupation"

Alright then.

If you're referring to Israeli's in the OPT, and you're defining "acceptable" as "legal", then yes, it is acceptable. Nationals of an occupying power in the area that is occupied, are not protected persons.

If you're talking about Israeli's in Israel proper, then no, it is not acceptable.

I find this question highly offensive, when you consider that "any" violence against Palestinian's is acceptable.

 

[Billo_Really]

That's exactly the sequence of events when Israel granted autonomy to Gaza. Isn't it? Negotiated in good faith with ONE entity supposedly representing the government of Palestine. And got Hamas instead. And rocket attacks. And terrorist tunnels. No one is stupid enough to go thru the process of removing blockades and promoting trade with a militant faction that has no International credibility as a government..

SO --- you blessed the Israeli retaliation against Hamas in Gaza -- it appears..
Palestinian choices have consequences. They are not listening to you or me. And there's a whole closet full of really bad choices in their house..

Except for the fact that they didn't grant autonomy to Gaza. They still controlled their airspace and coastal waters. They've also maintained "effective control" of the area ever since, which satisfies the definition of an "occupation". They constantly shoot at their fishermen and farmers. Conduct missile attacks on a weekly basis. And every other year, make up some BS reason to invade and destroy large portions of their infrastructure, which is a war crime.

Gaza is a prison. Gazans can't leave without Israeli permission, which I find disgusting! If my neighbor tried to tell me when I could leave my house, or where I could (or could not) go, I'd rip his god-damn head off!

Israel has no right telling the Palestinian's how to live their lives on their own property.

 

[Kondor3]

Looks good on paper.

Doesn't play in Peoria.

 

[Coyote]

Before I leave (for real this time), let's be clear. You're saying the Palestinians are committing violence out of self-defense, but when Israel strikes back, its murder.

Or are you prepared to admit that what Palestine is doing is just as unacceptable?

I'm saying once Israel ends the occupation and blockade, after that, if they receive a rocket, I fully support Israeli retaliation. Militarily.

Until then, its not striking back and its not self defense...........its aggression.

You aren't answering the question. So when Israeli citizens die by Palestinian hands, it's acceptable because "occupation"

Alright then.

It's acceptable if it is a military target.

Interesting, but since Israeli civilians aren't military targets, I have a hard time with that assertion. Hence why I said "Israeli citizens" i.e. people who have nothing to do with the conflict.

And before someone else chimes in and says "Israel targets Palestinians civilians too!" Be reminded what the terrorists in Gaza did to the civilians when Israel bombed Gaza.

Actually...I've heard an argument against that. Most Israeli citizens are current or former military and can be called up at any time. So with the exception of children and religious exceptions for Haredi - does that make them military targets?

 

[Billo_Really]

Actually...I've heard an argument against that. Most Israeli citizens are current or former military and can be called up at any time. So with the exception of children and religious exceptions for Haredi - does that make them military targets?

And Arab-Israeli's are banned from serving in the military, which denies them special privileges for vets.

 

[Coyote]

Actually...I've heard an argument against that. Most Israeli citizens are current or former military and can be called up at any time. So with the exception of children and religious exceptions for Haredi - does that make them military targets?

And Arab-Israeli's are banned from serving in the military, which denies them special privileges for vets.

Yup. Being in the military opens the doors to many of the better paying, higher ranking jobs. Although I don't think they are banned from serving - but they are given the choice to opt out.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Interesting, but since Israeli civilians aren't military targets, I have a hard time with that assertion. Hence why I said "Israeli citizens" i.e. people who have nothing to do with the conflict.

And before someone else chimes in and says "Israel targets Palestinians civilians too!" Be reminded what the terrorists in Gaza did to the civilians when Israel bombed Gaza.

Funny how Palestinian's are terrorists, but Israeli's are citizens?

Don't broadstroke much, do you?

The stigma is there, it's Palestine's job to remove it. Until then, any Palestinian could be a potential terrorist. Palestine is doing nothing to abate the violence, has stated they want to destroy Israel, not make peace with it, among numerous other things.

You want to make Israel out as evil imperialistic occupiers with no empathy toward Palestinian "citizens". That's all I hear from you.

Israel = bad
Palestine = good

Israel = oppressor
Palestine = oppressed

Israel = criminal
Palestine = victim

Don't broadstroke much, do you?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Actually...I've heard an argument against that. Most Israeli citizens are current or former military and can be called up at any time. So with the exception of children and religious exceptions for Haredi - does that make them military targets?

And Arab-Israeli's are banned from serving in the military, which denies them special privileges for vets.

Yup. Being in the military opens the doors to many of the better paying, higher ranking jobs. Although I don't think they are banned from serving - but they are given the choice to opt out.

If you know anything about what Nidal Hassan did, you would understand how Israel feels about letting Arabs serve in the IDF.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I find this question highly offensive, when you consider that "any" violence against Palestinian's is acceptable.

I'll be blunt, I don't care how you feel. You told me that was none of my business. You're making it quite clear that Israeli settlers in the "OPT" are fair game and deserve to be hurt or killed because they allegedly occupy Palestinian territory.

It is clear by the PLO's position that any attack on any Jew or Israeli citizen is acceptable. I lack empathy for those who endear themselves to the destruction or eradication of an entire ethnicity/religion.