Israeli Army Forces Enter Gaza, Open Fire On Palestinian Farmers

[Billo_Really]

Ya, right

Great rebuttal brainwashed sheep

That has nothing to do with being brainwashed, that's the truth.

The pro-Israeli crowd are the most abusive posters in this forum.

 

[RoccoR]

Billo_Really, et al,

Very much on par with disinformation.

It's not name calling. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. If it was just one country , then ok.

The U.S, Canada, Australia, Japan, U.K and the EU. Hamas is also banned in Jordan and Egypt.

The Israeli government is just as much a terrorist organization as Hamas. The Likud Party's roots are in Irgun. And Irgun was a terrorist organization.

(COMMENT)

The Likud Party (founded in 1973 by Menachem Begin --- 6th Prime Minister of the State of Israel and recipient of the 1978 Nobel Peace Prize) is generally considered a right-wing political party in Israel.

The Irgun, unaligned with any political party, was designated a terrorist organization by Britain, the 1946 Zionist Congress, and the Jewish Agency. The Irgun was dissolved and absorbed into the Israeli Defense Force on 1 June 1948. While it is true that Menachem Begin was a terrorist fugitive for nearly a decade, time and changes does seem to heal all wounds - an evolutionary process.

Other than the fact that some members of the Likud Party were former members of the Irgun (Menachem Begin being the most prominent), there is no direct connection between the Irgun (dissolved in 1948) and the Likud Party (founded in 1973) separated by a quarter century. One first was a paramilitary terrorist organization and the second being (not the most prominent but) a respected political party.

But in politics, all things are subjective to a degree. The association of the two separate and distinct activities is merely analysis ladened with a hidden agenda.

after the violent battle between Fatah and Hamas, not the election

No, it was the election, because Hamas refused to be Israel's bitch, like Fatah did.

(COMMENT)

There is little question that much of the Western World clearly did not understand why the Arab Palestinian people might vote for a known terrorist organization for its leadership. Conversely, the Arab Palestinian clearly did not understand the consequences of accepting and supporting a terrorist organization.

In any event, the Palestinian Leadership --- no matter where you choose to start the timeline, has not advanced the cause of the Palestinians in a way that promotes economic development, entrepreneurship opportunities, and industrial and commercial factors. The Palestinian Leadership, for the last quarter century, has failed to achieve its political agenda (whether right or wrong) that has set the geo-political conditions for a declining financial system and political system that makes it impossible to stand any where close to its own. One of those set conditions is the support to HAMAS and its associated terrorist affiliations.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[ChrisL]

Billo_Really, et al,

Very much on par with disinformation.

It's not name calling. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. If it was just one country , then ok.

The U.S, Canada, Australia, Japan, U.K and the EU. Hamas is also banned in Jordan and Egypt.

The Israeli government is just as much a terrorist organization as Hamas. The Likud Party's roots are in Irgun. And Irgun was a terrorist organization.

(COMMENT)

The Likud Party (founded in 1973 by Menachem Begin --- 6th Prime Minister of the State of Israel and recipient of the 1978 Nobel Peace Prize) is generally considered a right-wing political party in Israel.

The Irgun, unaligned with any political party, was designated a terrorist organization by Britain, the 1946 Zionist Congress, and the Jewish Agency. The Irgun was dissolved and absorbed into the Israeli Defense Force on 1 June 1948. While it is true that Menachem Begin was a terrorist fugitive for nearly a decade, time and changes does seem to heal all wounds - an evolutionary process.

Other than the fact that some members of the Likud Party were former members of the Irgun (Menachem Begin being the most prominent), there is no direct connection between the Irgun (dissolved in 1948) and the Likud Party (founded in 1973) separated by a quarter century. One first was a paramilitary terrorist organization and the second being (not the most prominent but) a respected political party.

But in politics, all things are subjective to a degree. The association of the two separate and distinct activities is merely analysis ladened with a hidden agenda.

after the violent battle between Fatah and Hamas, not the election

No, it was the election, because Hamas refused to be Israel's bitch, like Fatah did.

(COMMENT)

There is little question that much of the Western World clearly did not understand why the Arab Palestinian people might vote for a known terrorist organization for its leadership. Conversely, the Arab Palestinian clearly did not understand the consequences of accepting and supporting a terrorist organization.

In any event, the Palestinian Leadership --- no matter where you choose to start the timeline, has not advanced the cause of the Palestinians in a way that promotes economic development, entrepreneurship opportunities, and industrial and commercial factors. The Palestinian Leadership, for the last quarter century, has failed to achieve its political agenda (whether right or wrong) that has set the geo-political conditions for a declining financial system and political system that makes it impossible to stand any where close to its own. One of those set conditions is the support to HAMAS and its associated terrorist affiliations.

Most Respectfully,
R

That is a great post that makes so much sense, Mr. RoccoR.

 

[aris2chat]

It's not name calling. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. If it was just one country , then ok.

The U.S, Canada, Australia, Japan, U.K and the EU. Hamas is also banned in Jordan and Egypt.

The Israeli government is just as much a terrorist organization as Hamas. The Likud Party's roots are in Irgun. And Irgun was a terrorist organization.

Ya, right

Great rebuttal brainwashed sheep

even with a detailed timeline he still would not get it

 

[Billo_Really]

The Likud Party (founded in 1973 by Menachem Begin --- 6th Prime Minister of the State of Israel and recipient of the 1978 Nobel Peace Prize) is generally considered a right-wing political party in Israel.

The Irgun, unaligned with any political party, was designated a terrorist organization by Britain, the 1946 Zionist Congress, and the Jewish Agency. The Irgun was dissolved and absorbed into the Israeli Defense Force on 1 June 1948. While it is true that Menachem Begin was a terrorist fugitive for nearly a decade, time and changes does seem to heal all wounds - an evolutionary process.

Unless you're Hamas. Then people keep throwing 30 year old quotes in front of your face and completely disregarding more recent statements.

Other than the fact that some members of the Likud Party were former members of the Irgun (Menachem Begin being the most prominent), there is no direct connection between the Irgun (dissolved in 1948) and the Likud Party ...

Other than the fact that some members of the Likud Party were former members of Irgun. Oh no, no direct connection there. Not to mention, one of the biggest terrorists in Irgun, became the Israeli PM.

But in politics, all things are subjective to a degree. The association of the two separate and distinct activities is merely analysis ladened with a hidden agenda.

They're not separate and distinct. The terrorism Irgun did years ago, Israel is still doing today.

There is little question that much of the Western World clearly did not understand why the Arab Palestinian people might vote for a known terrorist organization for its leadership.

Why did Israeli's vote for Ben Gurion and Menachem Begin? Same thing.

Conversely, the Arab Palestinian clearly did not understand the consequences of accepting and supporting a terrorist organization.

I guess "time and changes" do not heal all wounds.

In any event, the Palestinian Leadership --- no matter where you choose to start the timeline, has not advanced the cause of the Palestinians in a way that promotes economic development, entrepreneurship opportunities, and industrial and commercial factors. The Palestinian Leadership, for the last quarter century, has failed to achieve its political agenda (whether right or wrong) that has set the geo-political conditions for a declining financial system and political system that makes it impossible to stand any where close to its own.

That's because the occupation and blockade makes it impossible to have any kind of viable economy that can grow. How can you possibly have an economy when your movements are restricted, imports and exports are routinely frozen and your infrastructure is constantly being bombed by the assholes next door?

One of those set conditions is the support to HAMAS and its associated terrorist affiliations.

What does street improvements have to do with terrorism? Because Hamas does that too. They put in street lights and the IDF comes along a little later and shoots out the lamps at the top. In that situation, which one committed the terrorist act?

The problem is not Hamas, it's Israel. They need to end the occupation and blockade; then shut their fucking mouths on Iran.

 

[Billo_Really]

even with a detailed timeline he still would not get it

There's a lot of things you don't get, either; much like a neutered dog.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is not accurate and certainly not true.

A/AC.14/8 2 October 1947 18. Replying to these observations, the Colonial Officer pointed out that paragraph 4 of Article 22 of the League Covenant had been interpreted by the Principal Allied Powers in the unratified Treaty of Sevres, where Syria and Iraq, but not Palestine, were explicitly said to have been “provisionally recognised” as independent States.

That part was removed when it was rewritten as the Treaty of Lausanne which was ratified. That removal affirms that Palestine was provisionally recognized as an independent state.
-------------------
Article 22

To those colonies and territories which as a consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilisation...
-----------------------
The way the mandate went down was clearly a violation of the LoN Covenant and the rights of the Palestinians.

(COMMENT)

The interpretation, whether ratified or not, was none the less --- that of the Allied Powers --- who also wrote the Treaty of Lausanne, which does not mention Palestine at all. Palestine was never singled-out by the Allied Powers. Remember, all these interpretations were on events that happened in the early 1920's. The recounting happened in the late 1940's; after all the interpretations were ironed-out.

In any event, it doesn't change the fact that the Arab Palestinian declined to participate in the Arab Agency as an advisory element on the administration of the territory under mandate.

Lastly, there were no violations of the LoN Covenant and the rights of the Palestinians were not violated. The same authorities that wrote the Mandate also wrote the Covenant. The Arab Palestinians simply did not comply with the acceptable processes leading to independence.

Most Respectfully,
R

There was no special processes required. They were the natives inside a defined territory. They already had the right to independence. And they still do.

At the time the LoN knew beyond reasonable doubt that the majority were recent illegal immigrants and as such were not the natives. The natives stayed in 1948 when the arab league attacked and tried to destroy Israel, the illegal migrants ran for the hills and waited for the defeat so they could go back and take the Jews property.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Not "when" ---- but "how many times?"

P F Tinmore, et al,

Relative to an "inalienable right" --- it is never "offered." It is either "used" or "not used" --- "exercised" or "not exercised." It is a right exclusive --- "conditio sine qua non" --- "self determination without external interference" (independence and sovereignty) can not have happened unless the Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) exercise the right first.

(COMMENT)

As America has experienced many times (most recently in Afghanistan and Iraq), no one can hand any culture or people "independence and sovereignty" unless they are willing to make the effort to sustain it and maintain it. The HoAP have never been able to establish independence (the ability to stand alone) --- and --- sustain it and maintain it (not for more than a thousand years). At the rate they are progressing, we will not see that in my lifetime.

When were the Palestinians offered their "rights?" Never! They always had them --- never lost them. They never developed to that point in their culture that they understood how to apply it; just as today - they do not understand the importance of the progressive development and codification of the principles of international law concerning friendly relations and co-operation among States. And in their child-like frustration to apply them they morphed into the HoAP.

Most Respectfully,
R

People under occupation find it difficult to exercise their rights.

Unfortunately, Palestine was born under occupation and has been occupied ever since.

(OBSERVATION)

22. Later in 1923, a third attempt was made to establish an institution through which the Arab population of Palestine could be brought into cooperation with the government. The mandatory Power now proposed “the establishment of an Arab Agency in Palestine which will occupy a position exactly analogous to that accorded to the Jewish Agency”. The Arab Agency would have the right to be consulted on all matters relating to immigration, on which it was recognised that “the views of the Arab community were entitled to special consideration”. The Arab leaders declined that this offer on the ground that it would not satisfy the aspirations of the Arab people. They added that, never having recognised the status of the Jewish Agency, they had no desire for the establishment of an Arab Agency on the same basis.

• 
  “The British Government desired to establish a self-government in Palestine, but to proceed in this direction by stages…. It had been announced that the nominated Advisory Council was to be the first stage. The second stage would have been a Legislative Council without an Arab majority. If this worked satisfactorily, the third stage, after a lapse of perhaps same years, would have been a constitution on more democratic lines.”

SOURCE: A/AC.14/8 2 October 1947

(COMMENT)

The Arab Palestinian shot themselves in the foot several times.

Most Respectfully,
R

Nice duck of the question:

When were the Palestinians offered:
The right to self determination without external interference.

The right to independence and sovereignty.

The right to territorial integrity.

Prior to 1948, or ever?

But our honorable P F Tinmore claimed that, arabs did have those "inalienable" rights! Those Schrödinger's palistanians, having rights and not having them altogether, genocided and not genocided, etc., existing in some zombie state!

The Palestinians remind me of a guy who loses his ass in a poker game and then demands his money back.

BILLO

 

[Phoenall]

With the palistanian "rights" more equal, than those of others, of course.

No, equal rights for all.

Why? Surely, palistanians have their equal rights in their palistan.

Yes, the Australians in Palistan have the same rights as other Australians.

While the Palestinian Christians are being ethnically cleansed from Palestine and being treated as 4th class citizens

Palestinian Christians are being ethnically cleansed and murdered by your Jew brethren.

"PITTSBURGH

Palestinian Christians are under attack in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories.

Israeli settlers have been vandalizing Palestinian churches, monasteries, cemeteries, and other Christian institutions and property in alarming numbers over the past three years.

These crimes are thought to be part of the larger “price-tag” movement, a campaign started by Israeli settlers in 2011 both to intimidate Palestinians into leaving their land and to establish a punitive “price” Palestinians must pay for perceived setbacks to the security and geographic expansion of the Jewish state.

"Price tag" attacks are not aimed exclusively at Christian Palestinians. Secular and Muslim Palestinians are regularly victimized by the price tag attacks as well. But many attacks have, indeed, targeted Christian institutions."

A Palestinian monastery near Jerusalem, for example, was firebombed and vandalized on Aug. 19. The walls of the Beit Jamal monastery, which is inhabited by the Sisters of Bethlehem order, were defaced with Stars of David and the words “price tag,” “death to Gentiles” and “revenge” written in Hebrew. "

Presbyterian Church U.S.A. - News Announcements - Palestinian Christians under attack

Have you read what the members of the PCUSA are saying and doing, seems that they disagree with the ANTI SEMITES that are in charge and many Presbyterian churches are leaving the group.

Anti-semitism and the shame of the PCUSA WashingtonExaminer.com

Now the PCUSA, as its members call it, has taken an official position against Israel and so I, as an elder in the PCUSA -- no longer a "ruling" elder in my congregation, having wrapped up my second such stint last year -- have to take a position for or against the PCUSA based on it.

Many PCUSA congregations across the country are already engaged in the process of "discerning" whether to remain within the splintering denomination, and this new assault on Israel and the virulent language employed — "occupation" — will no doubt make that process much easier for hundreds of thousands of us. If their congregations don't leave, they will. They will not be part of the American intifada against Israel.

I posted a link to the "open letter" on Twitter and asked for reactions.
From Robert Kraychik: "I think I'll just keep siding with God's Chosen People over the people chosen by a bunch of whiny leftists."
Sherri Wells noted that "someone needs to tell the PCUSA it's the Palestinians that don't want a two state solution."
"Give the PCUSA a break," Gary Jacobsen urged. "SOMEBODY had to get the speck out of Israel's eye."
Noah Pollak picked up on the Ark-sized duplicity of the letter. "After sucker-punching Israel," Noah noted, "they ask US Jewish community to 'remain open' to them as if nothing happened."
"An antisemitic move like boycotting Israel does not make them a partner," tweeted Jeff Dunetz. "This Jew prayed on Shabbos they stop being morons."
"But it's a nuanced antisemitism ..." added Eric Hardie.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Sovereignty and Independence is simply not as easy to declare as the Arab Palestinian or you think.

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is not accurate and certainly not true.

That part was removed when it was rewritten as the Treaty of Lausanne which was ratified. That removal affirms that Palestine was provisionally recognized as an independent state.
-------------------
Article 22

To those colonies and territories which as a consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilisation...
-----------------------
The way the mandate went down was clearly a violation of the LoN Covenant and the rights of the Palestinians.

(COMMENT)

The interpretation, whether ratified or not, was none the less --- that of the Allied Powers --- who also wrote the Treaty of Lausanne, which does not mention Palestine at all. Palestine was never singled-out by the Allied Powers. Remember, all these interpretations were on events that happened in the early 1920's. The recounting happened in the late 1940's; after all the interpretations were ironed-out.

In any event, it doesn't change the fact that the Arab Palestinian declined to participate in the Arab Agency as an advisory element on the administration of the territory under mandate.

Lastly, there were no violations of the LoN Covenant and the rights of the Palestinians were not violated. The same authorities that wrote the Mandate also wrote the Covenant. The Arab Palestinians simply did not comply with the acceptable processes leading to independence.

Most Respectfully,
R

There was no special processes required. They were the natives inside a defined territory. They already had the right to independence. And they still do.

(COMMENT)

Well, there certainly are process that need to be coordinated and debts to assume, and civil services to be established, and a hundred other functions that were transferred from the Ottoman to the Mandatory --- and then --- presumably to the successor government. Unlike the simplicity you present here, there is a lot more to becoming a nation then just waking-up one morning and saying: We are a new nation. Yes, there are processes required, just as there were when the Mandatory assumed governmental authority. And it is all these other functions of Government that are needed that make, even unto today, the Arab Palestinians unable to stand alone. Every year, like the beggars on the street corner, the Palestinians need help organizing a "Donor's Conference;" for which it is totally dependent.

The "defined territory" is a territory capture, defined and administered from the Ottoman Empire and surrendered to the Allied Power, not the indigenous population.

The League of Nations recognized the "right" of the Arab, but also observed that the Arab in the Palestine under Mandate was not capable of establishing a self government.

The right of the Arab Palestinian - today - does not exists were it conflicts with the right of the Israeli - today.

Most Respectfully,
R

Some posters talk about rights like the Ottoman or arab world was a democracy. Women, children and servants were property and did not have individual rights except what the dominant male of the family gave them.
Rights in the muslim world were not automatic, equal and certainly not universal to all.
Rights as we talk about them are given by the state, each country has their own variation. What we call the universal human rights is a wish list made by the UN, but not all people in all lands have those rights.
Slavery was still legal in the arab world till 1965, and in some areas is still common place despite any laws prohibiting. Indenture and child apprenticeship are also used as forms of slavery to this day. Such people are given very little if any rights or consideration.
Just people cause a people happen to live does not mean they have rights. Rights have to be recognized and protected under law, laws made by men. Even so called god's laws mean nothing unless men are willing to grant them. Life in the middle east and muslim world have little meaning as we see everyday in the news.
Talk of palestinian rights mean nothing in most host countries. Even in the PA, rights in the WB and G are quite different, determined when convenient by the political powers. Rights are not equal or guaranteed by any means, past or present.
Rights to vote, work, travel, free speech, even to live are strictly limited in that part of the world.
Palestinians have no more right to land or a state than any other racial or religious group throughout the muslim or third world is given, less so than kurds, armeneans etc.
Women and children deserve more rights than palestinians. When the palestinians recognize Israel and give up the war rhetoric and charter, then they will be deserving of building a state.
ISIS might control land in syria and iraq but the world is not ready to recognize their rights to a state. The world did not recognize the taliban when they controlled Afghanistan.
When palestinians are ready, their rights will be recognized and become law. If they act like animals towards even their own, they deserve no consideration by the world as capable of separate rights as a people or state.

Hasbara propaganda, no one believes it anymore. Why should any people recognize the theft of their land and their expulsion?

HEY Mohamed it is in the same place as your alleged "source documents" are kept, the UN archives. So are you saying that your documents are now ISLAMONAZI PROPAGANDA and no one believes them anymore.

 

[Phoenall]

Then explain the one stood on a rock that does not even flinch when the first rounds are heard. No muzzle flashes from the direction of the vehicles to show that the people there had fired any weapons. And if you look even closer all the alleged IDF soldiers are behind the rear vehicles side panels as at least 6 rounds are fired

This film clip is shot by well meaning amateurs, who after the rounds are heard concentrate on filming the vehicles, oblivious of the fact that the fire is coming from the soldiers you see adopting the prone position at around the 25 second mark in the video to the left of the main group of vehicles. Clearly you have never been around real guns or you would know you can't see muzzle flashes in daylight very easily if at all, especially as most military rifles have flash suppressors fitted. You are more likely to see a small amount gunsmoke (depending on the type of ammo used) or a little dust kicked up in front of the barrel. I am however inclined to agree with your earlier post that some sound effects may have been added for effect, as at that range, gunshots are more likely to sound like snapping twigs and would not be that loud. I think you'll find I mentioned the "bird on the rock" in my last post.

Then you know nothing about fishing in the Med or anywhere else. The nets were of a coarse rope material not monofilament as is usual ( 100 metres of mono gill net costs about £100 sterling, 100 metres of coarse cargo net costs about £1,000 STERLING ) The net seen is cargo netting and is only small, so no good for catching fish but fine for catching boxes of weapons or ammunition.

Most of the netting being reeled in was of the fine mesh variety although there was some nor coarse netting seen for a second or two before the firing started but its unclear if it was part of the actual net being reeled out or had just gotten in the way and was being moved, anyway why shouldn't a fishing boat also have coarse netting on board? The original footage came from the Al Hiwar Satellite TV Channel and is a lot longer than the clip posted. If the Zionist JSIL navy really believed these fishermen were trying to smuggle arms into Gaza, they'd stop the boat and search it. This was just another incident to show the Palestinians who the boss is. Several fishermen have been killed by the IDF in the past and these events are commonplace as part of the ongoing siege.

The rules go out the window when you engage in terrorist activities and then you are placed behind a wall...

So these fishermen are "terrorists" and your evidence for this assertion is?

If they are deliberately going outside the area to incite a reaction then they are acting as terrorists, just as the human shields are acting as terrorists. They do not have to commit an act of violence to be a terrorist, just support the terrorists in some manner.

So that's a resounding NO then, you have no evidence for your assertion. Thanks.

Read my reply again and you will see that they are deliberately inciting a reaction because they have cameras onboard. This is a common Palestinian propaganda trick that fails everytime due to rubbish editing and actual footage not matching the soundtrack. So leaving the proscribed zone to incite a reaction can be seen as an act of terrorism in the eyes of the ICJ if it is done to manipulate the views of others. remember the UN charter demands that no nation use propaganda as a weapon of war or terrorism. Palestine is doing so repeatedly

 

[Phoenall]

Challenger, et al,

I looked at the video several times. I don't see an "attack."

So these fishermen are "terrorists" and your evidence for this assertion is?

(COMMENT)

What I do see is an approach and interdiction by a fast patrol boat. It seems to me to be a pretty standard interdiction. The shots fired were clearly in the water, attempting to warn-off multiple fishing boats attempting to violate the standing Notice to Mariners.

It appears to be an attempt at creating an incident for media shock value.

As soon as you hear the one female camera operator shout that they are in "International Waters," --- you know right away that they are in violation of the block established by the Israeli Navy under the San Remo Manual.

While there is no evidence that the operators were terrorists, there is not obvious evidence that they were engaged in fishing activity. It appears to be a provoked confrontation in order to capture video of an Israel interdiction on restricted waters.

I would not use this video in attempting to prove your point. It doesn't do it very well.

BTW, I think this might be an older video. The Israel Patrol Boat seems to be of the Dubar Class (older series).

Most Respectfully,
R

The Notice to Mariners states that the Gaza Maritime Area extends 20Nm from the coast. If the Palestinian fishermen were within that area the Zionist JSIL navy has no right or reason to open fire on the boats. They could achieve the same effect, i.e. interdiction, using a loud hailer, or other form of signaling. They could order the boat to heave to and be boarded. They would only be "entitled" to fire warning shots if these measures failed. There is no evidence from that film clip of any attempt to communicate other than by opening fire.

Edited out if you bother to look, the footage is disjointed and does not flow. There is no continuity as such and you see the same scene twice in many cases. I heard the command to turn around and the Palestinians refused, so the warning shots in the water were legal as they did not injure any of the fishermen.

 

[Phoenall]

A blockade is an act of war.

Says who and how about some evidence to support your claim from the UN n full as well.

 

[Phoenall]

The Likud Party (founded in 1973 by Menachem Begin --- 6th Prime Minister of the State of Israel and recipient of the 1978 Nobel Peace Prize) is generally considered a right-wing political party in Israel.

The Irgun, unaligned with any political party, was designated a terrorist organization by Britain, the 1946 Zionist Congress, and the Jewish Agency. The Irgun was dissolved and absorbed into the Israeli Defense Force on 1 June 1948. While it is true that Menachem Begin was a terrorist fugitive for nearly a decade, time and changes does seem to heal all wounds - an evolutionary process.

Unless you're Hamas. Then people keep throwing 30 year old quotes in front of your face and completely disregarding more recent statements.

Other than the fact that some members of the Likud Party were former members of the Irgun (Menachem Begin being the most prominent), there is no direct connection between the Irgun (dissolved in 1948) and the Likud Party ...

Other than the fact that some members of the Likud Party were former members of Irgun. Oh no, no direct connection there. Not to mention, one of the biggest terrorists in Irgun, became the Israeli PM.

But in politics, all things are subjective to a degree. The association of the two separate and distinct activities is merely analysis ladened with a hidden agenda.

They're not separate and distinct. The terrorism Irgun did years ago, Israel is still doing today.

There is little question that much of the Western World clearly did not understand why the Arab Palestinian people might vote for a known terrorist organization for its leadership.

Why did Israeli's vote for Ben Gurion and Menachem Begin? Same thing.

Conversely, the Arab Palestinian clearly did not understand the consequences of accepting and supporting a terrorist organization.

I guess "time and changes" do not heal all wounds.

In any event, the Palestinian Leadership --- no matter where you choose to start the timeline, has not advanced the cause of the Palestinians in a way that promotes economic development, entrepreneurship opportunities, and industrial and commercial factors. The Palestinian Leadership, for the last quarter century, has failed to achieve its political agenda (whether right or wrong) that has set the geo-political conditions for a declining financial system and political system that makes it impossible to stand any where close to its own.

That's because the occupation and blockade makes it impossible to have any kind of viable economy that can grow. How can you possibly have an economy when your movements are restricted, imports and exports are routinely frozen and your infrastructure is constantly being bombed by the assholes next door?

One of those set conditions is the support to HAMAS and its associated terrorist affiliations.

What does street improvements have to do with terrorism? Because Hamas does that too. They put in street lights and the IDF comes along a little later and shoots out the lamps at the top. In that situation, which one committed the terrorist act?

The problem is not Hamas, it's Israel. They need to end the occupation and blockade; then shut their fucking mouths on Iran.

I will only say this Nelson Mandella was a convicted terrorist with the blood of thousands of black South Africans on his hands. And the killing in his name and memory is still going on today.

So why are you singling out Israel for special treatment unless you are consumed by RACISM, ANTI SEMITISM and JEW HATRED

 

[docmauser1]

Ya, right Great rebuttal brainwashed sheep

That has nothing to do with being brainwashed, that's the truth.

Does it have anything to with being brainspinned?

 

[docmauser1]

That's because the occupation and blockade makes it impossible to have any kind of viable economy that can grow. How can you possibly have an economy when your movements are restricted, imports and exports are routinely frozen and your infrastructure is constantly being bombed by the assholes next door?

Do palistanians put the cart before the donkey, too?

 

[aris2chat]

even with a detailed timeline he still would not get it

There's a lot of things you don't get, either; much like a neutered dog.

were you cut, crushed, banded or bitten? You speak from experience.

 

[P F Tinmore]

There is little question that much of the Western World clearly did not understand why the Arab Palestinian people might vote for a known terrorist organization for its leadership. Conversely, the Arab Palestinian clearly did not understand the consequences of accepting and supporting a terrorist organization.

Can you name some Palestinian parties who are not considered terrorists by the third grade name callers?

 

[docmauser1]

There is little question that much of the Western World clearly did not understand why the Arab Palestinian people might vote for a known terrorist organization for its leadership. Conversely, the Arab Palestinian clearly did not understand the consequences of accepting and supporting a terrorist organization.

Can you name some Palestinian parties who are not considered terrorists by the third grade name callers?

All of them seem to be braibricked in one way or another.

 

[RoccoR]

Billo_Really, et al,

No matter what you might think, the Israelis tend to grow, expand and develop politically, intellectually and philosophically; the same cannot be said for the Palestinian.

Most of your commentary, about the make believe connection between the Irgun and the Likud was unsubstantiated nonsense and ignored. But even if there were a connection by association, those members of the Irgun, surviving today --- would be 80 years old plus today. Not much of a threat to the Arab Palestinian. But was we address how organizations evolve and develop in western like environments, the character of such organizations, which don't live in a vacuum, do change.

In any event, the Palestinian Leadership --- no matter where you choose to start the timeline, has not advanced the cause of the Palestinians in a way that promotes economic development, entrepreneurship opportunities, and industrial and commercial factors. The Palestinian Leadership, for the last quarter century, has failed to achieve its political agenda (whether right or wrong) that has set the geo-political conditions for a declining financial system and political system that makes it impossible to stand any where close to its own.

That's because the occupation and blockade makes it impossible to have any kind of viable economy that can grow. How can you possibly have an economy when your movements are restricted, imports and exports are routinely frozen and your infrastructure is constantly being bombed by the assholes next door?

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The unproductive Arab Palestinian nearly always base their lack of development on the "occupation." What they don't expound upon is that the "occupation" and the accompanying security containment and quarantine has been established and maintained (and grown tighter) because of the threat the Arab Palestinian presents to local and regional security.

Had the Arab Palestinian concentrated on educational, economic and industrialization --- and the associated necessary improvement in infrastructure --- critical requirements to national prosperity --- then they would have seen a gradual reduction in the security containment and quarantine over the last quarter century. But the fact that the Arab Palestinian demonstrated a coup d'état level effort against the Jordanians (only trying to help them) and a terrorist and insurgency towards Israel (that was working towards normalized relations) --- choosing to invest their capital (monetary and political) in combative engagements, the cordon that wrapped around them only grew stronger (self strangulation).

The Arab Palestinian need to pick themselves up and work towards building a better nation then starting a fight/conflict every time they have two cents to rub together. The world community is not going to continue to pay for the recover of their folly every two - to - three years when they skim donor contributions to buy more weapons, build more tunnels, and attack more civilian targets.

One of those set conditions is the support to HAMAS and its associated terrorist affiliations.

What does street improvements have to do with terrorism? Because Hamas does that too. They put in street lights and the IDF comes along a little later and shoots out the lamps at the top. In that situation, which one committed the terrorist act?

The problem is not Hamas, it's Israel. They need to end the occupation and blockade; then shut their fucking mouths on Iran.

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Interesting. I hadn't heard that there was a critical street light issue.

Actually, Israel will --- eventually begin a gradual relaxation of the security containment and quarantine on the State of Palestine. They will do so at some risk to their own security and may pay a price. If, in the gradual relaxation of the containment and quarantine, the Jihadist and Fedayeen exploit the new conditions, it will demonstrate that the security containment and quarantine needs to be tightened, rather than loosened.

Most Respectfully,
R