Israel's Legal Right To Exist

[P F Tinmore]

When the Jordanians abandon the territory, what government was in place?

Israeli talking point.

It is the people not a government that has the right to self determination.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel did not annex territory on the basis of "occupation."

Then how did Israel "annex" its territory?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is impossible.

The UN mentions the Palestinians, nobody else.

Do you even hear yourself talk? UNGA 273(III).

Israel is in violation of UNGA 273.

(COMMENT)

UNGA 273 (III) only has one decision in it; admission. Are you twisting something here?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Shusha]

When the Jordanians abandon the territory, what government was in place?

Israeli talking point.

It is the people not a government that has the right to self determination.

No one is arguing that the people don't have a right to self-determination. (Except you).

 

[Shusha]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is impossible.

The UN mentions the Palestinians, nobody else.

Do you even hear yourself talk? UNGA 273(III).

Israel is in violation of UNGA 273.

(COMMENT)

UNGA 273 (III) only has one decision in it; admission. Are you twisting something here?

Most Respectfully,
R

Of course he is. He is going to try to claim that since Israel doesn't abide by the Charter, she is in violation of 273.

Edited to add that Israel can't be in violation of the 273 since 273 is not a conditional two-party agreement but a unilateral pronouncement of one party to the other.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

First, you are attempting to make an implication that some group of people can declare some determination.

When the Jordanians abandon the territory, what government was in place?

Israeli talking point.

It is the people not a government that has the right to self determination.

(COMMENT)

If the people are going to make a determination, then they must have some means to carry it out. But in this case, there was no determination made, and no means to extend sovereignty. Thus, if anyone stopped the right of the Arab Palestinians, it was the Arab Palestinians themselves.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Absolutely no one "prevented" the Arab Palestinians from exercising their right of swkf determination, sovereignty or independence.

You're joking, right?

All of the institutions created by the Palestinians for self determination were shut down by Britain. Their leaders were arrested, exiled, or killed.

You need to read up.

 

[MJB12741]

• The Treaty set the authorization to for Mandatories to develop citizenship procedures.

All of the Mandated territories, except Palestine, developed their citizenship through their local representatives. Palestine's was written by a foreign power against their will.

That is a violation of the Palestinian's right to self determination without external interference.

OMG! You actually wish the Palestinians to have self determination??? Don't that beat all? Even I could never wish such a punishment upon them. No way could I ever support such cruelty on them. They would go back to mass killing each other in a power struggle to rule. And how would they live without sucking off of Israel to provide for them?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is impossible.

The UN mentions the Palestinians, nobody else.

Do you even hear yourself talk? UNGA 273(III).

Israel is in violation of UNGA 273.

(COMMENT)

UNGA 273 (III) only has one decision in it; admission. Are you twisting something here?

Most Respectfully,
R

Of course he is. He is going to try to claim that since Israel doesn't abide by the Charter, she is in violation of 273.

Edited to add that Israel can't be in violation of the 273 since 273 is not a conditional two-party agreement but a unilateral pronouncement of one party to the other.

UNITED NATIONS
General Assembly

A/RES/273 (III)

11 May 1949

------------------------------------------------------------------------

273 (III). Admission of Israel to membership in the United Nations

Having received the report of the Security Council on the application of Israel for membership in the United Nations,1/

Noting that, in the judgment of the Security Council, Israel is a peace-loving State and is able and willing to carry out the obligations contained in the Charter,

Noting that the Security Council has recommended to the General Assembly that it admit Israel to membership in the United Nations,

Noting furthermore the declaration by the State of Israel that it "unreservedly accepts the obligations of the United Nations Charter and undertakes to honour them from the day when it becomes a Member of the United Nations",2/

Recalling its resolutions of 29 November 1947 3/ and 11 December 1948 4/ and taking note of the declarations and explanations made by the representative of the Government of Israel 5/ before the ad hoc Political Committee in respect of the implementation of the said resolutions,

Israel violates the conditions for admittance into UN​

 

[Hollie]

Absolutely no one "prevented" the Arab Palestinians from exercising their right of swkf determination, sovereignty or independence.

You're joking, right?

All of the institutions created by the Palestinians for self determination were shut down by Britain. Their leaders were arrested, exiled, or killed.

You need to read up.

I blame the Jews™. Oh, and the British now, too.

 

[montelatici]

P F Tinmore, et al,

First, you are attempting to make an implication that some group of people can declare some determination.

When the Jordanians abandon the territory, what government was in place?

Israeli talking point.

It is the people not a government that has the right to self determination.

(COMMENT)

If the people are going to make a determination, then they must have some means to carry it out. But in this case, there was no determination made, and no means to extend sovereignty. Thus, if anyone stopped the right of the Arab Palestinians, it was the Arab Palestinians themselves.

Most Respectfully,
R

The Palestinians were stopped by the British. It is clear in the correspondence between the Palestinian Delegation to London and the British Colonial Office. To wit:

The Palestinian request in 1922:

"Whilst the position in Palestine is, as it stands to-day, with the British Government holding authority by an occupying force, and using that authority to impose upon the people against their wishes a great immigration of alien Jews, many of them of a Bolshevik revolutionary type, no constitution which would fall short of giving the People of Palestine full control of their own affairs could be acceptable."

If the British Government would revise their present policy in Palestine, end the Zionist con-dominium, put a stop to all alien immigration and grant the People of Palestine — who by Right and Experience are the best judges of what is good and bad to their country — Executive and Legislative powers, the terms of a constitution could be discussed in a different atmosphere. If to-day the People of Palestine assented to any constitution which fell short of giving them full control of their own affairs they would be in the position of agreeing to an instrument of Government which might, and probably would, be used to smother their national life under a flood of alien immigration."

The Colonial Office's answer:

"Mr. Churchill regrets to observe that his personal explanations have apparently failed to convince your Delegation that His Majesty's Government have no intention "of repudiating the obligations into which they have entered towards the Jewish people. He has informed you on more than one occasion that he cannot discuss the future of Palestine upon any other basis than that of the letter addressed by the Right Honourable A. J. Balfour to Lord Rothschild on the 2nd November, 1917, commonly known as the "Balfour Declaration." You state in your letter that the people of Palestine cannot accept this Declaration as a basis for discussion. Mr. Churchill is unable for the reasons stated above to regard your Delegation as officially representing the People of Palestine."

UK correspondence with Palestine Arab Delegation and Zionist Organization/British policy in Palestine: "Churchill White Paper" - UK documentation Cmd. 1700/Non-UN document (excerpts) (1 July 1922)

The British stopped the Palestinian's from asserting self-determination in order to establish a Jewish colony in Palestine. So Rocco, stop making absurd assertions that have no basis in historical fact.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Absolutely no one "prevented" the Arab Palestinians from exercising their right of swkf determination, sovereignty or independence.

You're joking, right?

All of the institutions created by the Palestinians for self determination were shut down by Britain. Their leaders were arrested, exiled, or killed.

You need to read up.

I blame the Jews™. Oh, and the British now, too.

They were in cahoots.

 

[Shusha]

P F Tinmore

273 (III) reads:

The General Assembly,

Acting in discharge of its functions under Article 4 of the Charter and rule 125 of its rules of procedure,

1. Decides that Israel is a peace-loving State which accepts the obligations contained in the Charter and is able and willing to carry out those obligations;

2. Decides to admit Israel to membership in the United Nations.


There is nothing conditional about this statement. It is a direct and clear statement. There is no way for Israel to violate a statement which says, "The GA decides to admit Israel to membership in the UN."

 

[Hollie]

Absolutely no one "prevented" the Arab Palestinians from exercising their right of swkf determination, sovereignty or independence.

You're joking, right?

All of the institutions created by the Palestinians for self determination were shut down by Britain. Their leaders were arrested, exiled, or killed.

You need to read up.

I blame the Jews™. Oh, and the British now, too.

They were in cahoots.

Conspiracy theories are convenient when facts fail, right?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore

273 (III) reads:

The General Assembly,

Acting in discharge of its functions under Article 4 of the Charter and rule 125 of its rules of procedure,

1. Decides that Israel is a peace-loving State which accepts the obligations contained in the Charter and is able and willing to carry out those obligations;

2. Decides to admit Israel to membership in the United Nations.


There is nothing conditional about this statement. It is a direct and clear statement. There is no way for Israel to violate a statement which says, "The GA decides to admit Israel to membership in the UN."

Recalling its resolutions of 29 November 1947 3/ and 11 December 1948 4/ and taking note of the declarations and explanations made by the representative of the Government of Israel 5/ before the ad hoc Political Committee in respect of the implementation of the said resolutions,
​

BTW, 11 December 1948 is Resolution 194.

 

[Hollie]

P F Tinmore, et al,

First, you are attempting to make an implication that some group of people can declare some determination.

When the Jordanians abandon the territory, what government was in place?

Israeli talking point.

It is the people not a government that has the right to self determination.

(COMMENT)

If the people are going to make a determination, then they must have some means to carry it out. But in this case, there was no determination made, and no means to extend sovereignty. Thus, if anyone stopped the right of the Arab Palestinians, it was the Arab Palestinians themselves.

Most Respectfully,
R

The Palestinians were stopped by the British. It is clear in the correspondence between the Palestinian Delegation to London and the British Colonial Office. To wit:

The Palestinian request in 1922:

"Whilst the position in Palestine is, as it stands to-day, with the British Government holding authority by an occupying force, and using that authority to impose upon the people against their wishes a great immigration of alien Jews, many of them of a Bolshevik revolutionary type, no constitution which would fall short of giving the People of Palestine full control of their own affairs could be acceptable."

If the British Government would revise their present policy in Palestine, end the Zionist con-dominium, put a stop to all alien immigration and grant the People of Palestine — who by Right and Experience are the best judges of what is good and bad to their country — Executive and Legislative powers, the terms of a constitution could be discussed in a different atmosphere. If to-day the People of Palestine assented to any constitution which fell short of giving them full control of their own affairs they would be in the position of agreeing to an instrument of Government which might, and probably would, be used to smother their national life under a flood of alien immigration."

The Colonial Office's answer:

"Mr. Churchill regrets to observe that his personal explanations have apparently failed to convince your Delegation that His Majesty's Government have no intention "of repudiating the obligations into which they have entered towards the Jewish people. He has informed you on more than one occasion that he cannot discuss the future of Palestine upon any other basis than that of the letter addressed by the Right Honourable A. J. Balfour to Lord Rothschild on the 2nd November, 1917, commonly known as the "Balfour Declaration." You state in your letter that the people of Palestine cannot accept this Declaration as a basis for discussion. Mr. Churchill is unable for the reasons stated above to regard your Delegation as officially representing the People of Palestine."

UK correspondence with Palestine Arab Delegation and Zionist Organization/British policy in Palestine: "Churchill White Paper" - UK documentation Cmd. 1700/Non-UN document (excerpts) (1 July 1922)

The British stopped the Palestinian's from asserting self-determination in order to establish a Jewish colony in Palestine. So Rocco, stop making absurd assertions that have no basis in historical fact.

Nothing in that long cut and paste supports your claim that the British prevented the Islamist Entity from seeking self determination for their colonial objectives.

The poor, helpless, hapless Arabs-Moslems were foiled again by their own incompetence and ineptitude.

 

[Shusha]

The British stopped the Palestinian's from asserting self-determination in order to establish a Jewish (National Home) in Palestine.

Ah. No. The British would not endorse a Palestinian national self-determination which denied Jewish national self-determination. This did not prevent the Palestinians from asserting a self-determination in conjunction with Jewish national self-determination.

 

[Shusha]

Recalling its resolutions of 29 November 1947 3/ and 11 December 1948 4/ and taking note of the declarations and explanations made by the representative of the Government of Israel 5/ before the ad hoc Political Committee in respect of the implementation of the said resolutions,​

​

This does not make the actual statement of accepting Israel into the UN conditional. But all this is beside the point anyway, the point of bringing up 273 was to point out that the UN most certainly "mentions" Israel and accepts Israel's right to exist.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The British stopped the Palestinian's from asserting self-determination in order to establish a Jewish (National Home) in Palestine.

Ah. No. The British would not endorse a Palestinian national self-determination which denied Jewish national self-determination. This did not prevent the Palestinians from asserting a self-determination in conjunction with Jewish national self-determination.

Yes it did. Anything and everything Palestinian was shut down.

 

[RoccoR]

P f tinmore, et al,

There is nothing in the Resolution that calls for Israel to do anything in particular. Even if it did, it is not a binding resolution outside the membership.

UNITED NATIONS
General Assembly

A/RES/273 (III)

11 May 1949

------------------------------------------------------------------------

273 (III). Admission of Israel to membership in the United Nations

Having received the report of the Security Council on the application of Israel for membership in the United Nations,1/

Noting that, in the judgment of the Security Council, Israel is a peace-loving State and is able and willing to carry out the obligations contained in the Charter,

Noting that the Security Council has recommended to the General Assembly that it admit Israel to membership in the United Nations,

Noting furthermore the declaration by the State of Israel that it "unreservedly accepts the obligations of the United Nations Charter and undertakes to honour them from the day when it becomes a Member of the United Nations",2/

Recalling its resolutions of 29 November 1947 3/ and 11 December 1948 4/ and taking note of the declarations and explanations made by the representative of the Government of Israel 5/ before the ad hoc Political Committee in respect of the implementation of the said resolutions,

Israel violates the conditions for admittance into UN​

(COMMENT)

1) Your bolded passage merely "recalls" what was discussed in the debate over membership. It does not require Israel to take action of any kind.

2) Membership or the denial of membership in the UN is neither a barrier or a condition of statehood.

Most Respectfully,
R