Israel's Legal Right To Exist

[Phoenall]

"advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone"

And nothing even remotely Palestinian meets that criteria.

Rocco, you are sooooo full of shit. Who can stand alone with a gun in their face?

Stilll spreading this LIE. Who held a gun to anyones face other than the arab muslims do it all the time

 

[Phoenall]

montelatici, et al,

You are just too funny.

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yeah, you keep saying that. But it is entirely the WRONG interpretation.

ARTICLE I6.

Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.

You post this all the time. Neither the LoN nor the Mandate claimed any sovereignty. The LoN did say who would be the benefactors of their tutelage. They used terms like the people, the inhabitants, the natives, and the indigenous. There was no mention of foreigners.

So who were these people? The treaty of Lausanne spelled that out.

SECTION II .
NATIONALITY.
ARTICLE 30.

Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipsofacto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.​

They were talking about the people who actually lived there being citizens of their respective states. No foreigners were mentioned. The Palestinians have the right to sovereignty on their land as affirmed by subsequent UN resolutions.

(COMMENT)

You get this wrong every single time, as if repeating it over and over again will somehow change it.

• Article 16 is in the first Part and first Section of the Treaty. It is called: "TERRITORIAL CLAUSES."

§ This section deals with the disposition of territory for which the Ottoman Empire/Turkish Republic forfeits. In this case, ALL the territory outside the frontiers of the Turkish Republic. The only exception is territorial arrangements covered by special arrangements arising from some previously honored diplomatic relations.
​

• Article 30 is in the first Part and second Section of the Treaty. It is called "NATIONALITY."

§ This section deals with people who the question of nationality might be considered ambiguous under the operation of its law prior to this treaty. It insures that there si a uniform understanding among the various Mandatories as to how certain people are addressed. Although Article 30 mentions no particular territory, in its application relative to the territory under the Mandate of Palestine applies --- as the nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred: The Government of Palestine. That would be from the Mesopotamian Border to the Mediterranean Sea. The use of the word "State" in this case, insures that the citizenship passes into the follow-on Sovereignty as defined by the Mandatory. In this case, the population East of the Jordan River would become citizens of Trans-Jordan when Britain (the Mandatory) formally recognized the Emirate of Transjordan as a state on 15 May 1923 under the leadership of the first Emir (Abdullah).
​

Section I, Article 16, does not determine citizenship, and Section II, Article 30 does not impact the Rights and Title of the Territory. Article 30 says which citizenship the people are assigned based on the territorial determination on Article 16. In the case of Palestine, that authority was delineated in (first) the Palestine Order in Council --- then the Citizenship Order of 1925.

The Territorial Government drives Nationality, NOT the other way around.

Most Respectfully,
R

As usual, you are full of shit Rocco. The Citizenship Order was enacted by the British Government, not by the (territorial) Government of Palestine. Interestingly, this was the only such citizenship order enacted by Great Britain in any of their mandates or territories at that time.

(COMMENT)

GB did make the Order because it had to deal with the establishment of an National Home and deal with the Emirate of Transjordan.

Yes, the Citizenship Order did come from the Mandatory. And the Government of Palestine was the Mandatory in 1925.

The Government of Palestine was the Mandatory (UK) until 15 May 48 when the UNPC became the Government of Palestine.

Privy Council, to order, and it is hereby ordered, as follows:--​

Part i, Paragraph 1: Definitions

"The High Commissioner" shall include every person for the time being administering the Government of Palestine."
​

PART II. EXECUTIVE. Office of High Commissioner. Paragraph 4.

His Majesty may, by a Commission under His Sign Manual and Signet, appoint a fit person to administer the Government of Palestine under the designation of High Commissioner and Commander-in-Chief or such other designation as His Majesty thinks fit, and the person so appointed is hereinafter referred to as the High Commissioner.
​

Where do you think citizenship is granted?

Most Respectfully,
R

Where does it say that a colonial power has the authority to determine who has rights?

Link?

And so you admit at last that the arab muslim colonial powers dont have any rights in palestine, as they are the ones denying Jews and Christians those rights. And you need to be clear on which rights and when they were negotiated ?

 

[Phoenall]

Bleipriester, et al,

Yeah, this is one-hell-of-a subject. It really kicks in on skills in formal presentations. And this particular question (The Case of the Golan Heights) is a compound and complex question; if nothing else.

In the Original Posting - "Israel's Legal Right To Exist" - the status of the Golan Heights is irrelevant. The Golan Heights Issue that starts from a 1981 timeframe. The question of existance starts from a 1948 timeframe. IF Israel has no "Right" to exist, THEN it has not "Right" to hold any territory. The question, in terms of "Rights" relative to the Golan Heights is moot.

"Rights" + "Title" + "Sovereignty" are all independent concepts in relation to "Reality" (Ground Truth).

The UN now demands that the occupied Golan returns to Syria.

(REFERENCES)

Israel seized 1,200 square kilometers (460 square miles) of the Golan during the Six-Day War of 1967, then annexed it in 1981 in a move never recognized by the international community.

A first group of 127 UN Disengagement Observer Force (UNDOF) peacekeepers returned Monday to a camp on the Syrian-held side of the Golan Heights, two years after withdrawing amid clashes with Al-Qaeda-linked Syrian rebels.
United Nations (United States) (AFP)

The UN demanded that Israel comply with the international legitimacy's resolutions on the occupied Syrian Golan, particularly the Security Council resolution no. 497 of 1981 that declared Israel's decision to impose its laws and jurisdiction on the Golan as "null and void and without international legal effect".
Sign of the Times (SOTT) Wed, 18 Nov 2015
UN demands Israel annul illegal annexation of Syria's Golan Heights

UNSC Resolution 242 (1967) Middle East Conflict (22 Nov)
UNSC Resolution 338 (1973) Israel-Syrian Arab Republic (22 Oct)
UNSC Resolution 485 (1981) Israel-Syrian Arab Republic (22 May)
UNSC Resolution 493 (1981) Israel-Syrian Arab Republic (23 Nov)
UNSC Resolution 497 (1981) Israel-Syrian Arab Republic (17 Dec)

General Assembly A/70/480 (1 DEC 2015) Permanent sovereignty of the Palestinian people in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and of the Arab population in the occupied Syrian Golan over their natural resources

General Assembly severely criticizes the "Occupying Power" (Israel) and leave the issue of Arab Palestinian wrong doing, Jihadism, Deadly Fedayeen Action, Hostile Insurgency Operations, Radicalized Islamic Behaviors, and Asymmetric Violence completely unadressed as a causation for current outcomes.​

(DIRECT OBSERVATION)

View attachment 100557​

(COMMENT)

It is unlikely that anything the UN does will actually change the ground truth. In fact, it is more likely that any enforcement action will trigger open conflict --- which --- will (with greater probability) result (yet again) even greater losses and casualties for the Arab Palestinians to bear. This would even be more likely if the Arab Palestinians ignite violence in the City of Jerusalem or the Golan Heights.

The UNDOF, much like the UNEF in the Sinai, will not act as a barrier - but step aside at the first sign of trouble just like the UNEF did in 1967.

Currently, the only military forces (land, sea, or air) in the region (not currently engaging DAESH, another similar radical islamic movement) are pointed towards Israel. Other than Israel, there are no Allied Forces capable of influencing the battlefield in time to "prevent an armed conflict."

The regional Arab nations (in this DAESH turbulant region) have to exercise some discretion in the ignition of a conflict. Should the conflict start in the significant combat loss in Arab Forces, DAESH will not hesitate to take advantage of any weakness.

Most Respectfully,
R

The definitions of the "right to exist" vary in Israel´s case. For some, it is the right to do anything and the right to not to be criticized. Israel is without mistakes and its actions above human ability to judge, they say.

According to the hate sites and islamonazi propaganda

 

[Bleipriester]

Bleipriester, et al,

Yeah, this is one-hell-of-a subject. It really kicks in on skills in formal presentations. And this particular question (The Case of the Golan Heights) is a compound and complex question; if nothing else.

In the Original Posting - "Israel's Legal Right To Exist" - the status of the Golan Heights is irrelevant. The Golan Heights Issue that starts from a 1981 timeframe. The question of existance starts from a 1948 timeframe. IF Israel has no "Right" to exist, THEN it has not "Right" to hold any territory. The question, in terms of "Rights" relative to the Golan Heights is moot.

"Rights" + "Title" + "Sovereignty" are all independent concepts in relation to "Reality" (Ground Truth).

The UN now demands that the occupied Golan returns to Syria.

(REFERENCES)

Israel seized 1,200 square kilometers (460 square miles) of the Golan during the Six-Day War of 1967, then annexed it in 1981 in a move never recognized by the international community.

A first group of 127 UN Disengagement Observer Force (UNDOF) peacekeepers returned Monday to a camp on the Syrian-held side of the Golan Heights, two years after withdrawing amid clashes with Al-Qaeda-linked Syrian rebels.
United Nations (United States) (AFP)

The UN demanded that Israel comply with the international legitimacy's resolutions on the occupied Syrian Golan, particularly the Security Council resolution no. 497 of 1981 that declared Israel's decision to impose its laws and jurisdiction on the Golan as "null and void and without international legal effect".
Sign of the Times (SOTT) Wed, 18 Nov 2015
UN demands Israel annul illegal annexation of Syria's Golan Heights

UNSC Resolution 242 (1967) Middle East Conflict (22 Nov)
UNSC Resolution 338 (1973) Israel-Syrian Arab Republic (22 Oct)
UNSC Resolution 485 (1981) Israel-Syrian Arab Republic (22 May)
UNSC Resolution 493 (1981) Israel-Syrian Arab Republic (23 Nov)
UNSC Resolution 497 (1981) Israel-Syrian Arab Republic (17 Dec)

General Assembly A/70/480 (1 DEC 2015) Permanent sovereignty of the Palestinian people in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and of the Arab population in the occupied Syrian Golan over their natural resources

General Assembly severely criticizes the "Occupying Power" (Israel) and leave the issue of Arab Palestinian wrong doing, Jihadism, Deadly Fedayeen Action, Hostile Insurgency Operations, Radicalized Islamic Behaviors, and Asymmetric Violence completely unadressed as a causation for current outcomes.​

(DIRECT OBSERVATION)

View attachment 100557​

(COMMENT)

It is unlikely that anything the UN does will actually change the ground truth. In fact, it is more likely that any enforcement action will trigger open conflict --- which --- will (with greater probability) result (yet again) even greater losses and casualties for the Arab Palestinians to bear. This would even be more likely if the Arab Palestinians ignite violence in the City of Jerusalem or the Golan Heights.

The UNDOF, much like the UNEF in the Sinai, will not act as a barrier - but step aside at the first sign of trouble just like the UNEF did in 1967.

Currently, the only military forces (land, sea, or air) in the region (not currently engaging DAESH, another similar radical islamic movement) are pointed towards Israel. Other than Israel, there are no Allied Forces capable of influencing the battlefield in time to "prevent an armed conflict."

The regional Arab nations (in this DAESH turbulant region) have to exercise some discretion in the ignition of a conflict. Should the conflict start in the significant combat loss in Arab Forces, DAESH will not hesitate to take advantage of any weakness.

Most Respectfully,
R

The definitions of the "right to exist" vary in Israel´s case. For some, it is the right to do anything and the right to not to be criticized. Israel is without mistakes and its actions above human ability to judge, they say.

According to the hate sites and islamonazi propaganda

According to people who have discussed it with people like you.

 

[Phoenall]

was it only the Jewish national home legally created under international law

Unsubstantiated Israeli talking point.

No proven historical fact as every nation that was under a LoN mandate was legally created out of the former Ottoman Empire. And in the case of trans Jordan this led to the arab muslims having a rider added to the mandate that banned Jews from living in trans Jordan and non Jews from living in the Jewish national home. Remember posting the link that told you this last week ?

 

[Phoenall]

Projecting doesn't make you appear any less moronic. The Egyptians are from Egypt, the Syrians are from Syria and the Lebanese are from Lebanon. The Palestinians are from Palestine and the Jews came from Europe invaded Palestine and are now squatting on Christian and Muslim land. Those are the facts.

The problem with your hypocritical point of view, monte, is a Lebanese who moves to Palestine magically becomes a Palestinian whose "ancestors have been living there for thousands of years" while a Jew whose ancestors actually have been there for thousands of years somehow transforms into a European invader.

Not more than a month or so, your partner in crime posted a story about a poor "Palestinian" family who turned out to be Lebanese.

The real facts are that there has been a great deal of immigration into the geographical area known as Palestine in the past two hundred years or so. Before that, there was an Arab Muslim conquest. And before that were the indigenous Jewish people.

The descendants of indigenous people, that practiced Judaism, Samaritanism, Roman, Caanite religions etc., are still in Palestine, they happen to follow the Christian and Muslim faiths today. The European Jews were from Europe and were Europeans.

Surprise: Ashkenazi Jews Are Genetically European
Surprise: Ashkenazi Jews Are Genetically European

Immigration to Palestine over the past 200 years has been overwhelmingly Jewish.


"59. The conclusion is that Arab illegal immigration for the purposes of permanent settlement is insignificant."

A Survey of Palestine Vol 1, page 212, para. 59

A Survey of Palestine Volume 1 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ Stanford University

Conversely:

" It follows that the Jewish population may now include between 50,000 and 60,000 illegal immigrants who have settled in Palestine at any time since 1920 when the first Immigration Ordinance was enacted. "

A Survey of Palestine Vol 1, page 210, para. 54

A Survey of Palestine Volume 1 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ Stanford University

On the other hand:

The Arabs in Palestine | Jewish Virtual Library

A Population Boom
As Hussein foresaw, the regeneration of Palestine, and the growth of its population, came only after Jews returned in massive numbers. The Jewish population increased by 470,000 between World War I and World War II while the non-Jewish population rose by 588,000. In fact, the permanent Arab population increased 120 percent between 1922 and 1947.

This rapid growth was a result of several factors. One was immigration from neighboring states — constituting 37 percent of the total immigration to pre-state Israel — by Arabs who wanted to take advantage of the higher standard of living the Jews had made possible. The Arab population also grew because of the improved living conditions created by the Jews as they drained malarial swamps and brought improved sanitation and health care to the region. Thus, for example, the Muslim infant mortality rate fell from 201 per thousand in 1925 to 94 per thousand in 1945 and life expectancy rose from 37 years in 1926 to 49 in 1943.

The Arab population increased the most in cities with large Jewish populations that had created new economic opportunities. From 19221947, the non-Jewish population increased 290 percent in Haifa, 131 percent in Jerusalem and 158 percent in Jaffa. The growth in Arab towns was more modest: 42 percent in Nablus, 78 percent in Jenin and 37 percent in Bethlehem.

LOL. Jewish Virtual Library a propaganda site, versus an official Anglo-American survey commissioned by the UN. Well done.

And carried out by arab muslims for the lazy Jew haters that made up the commission so they could get drunk every night of the 3 weeks they were there.

 

[Phoenall]

Projecting doesn't make you appear any less moronic. The Egyptians are from Egypt, the Syrians are from Syria and the Lebanese are from Lebanon. The Palestinians are from Palestine and the Jews came from Europe invaded Palestine and are now squatting on Christian and Muslim land. Those are the facts.

The problem with your hypocritical point of view, monte, is a Lebanese who moves to Palestine magically becomes a Palestinian whose "ancestors have been living there for thousands of years" while a Jew whose ancestors actually have been there for thousands of years somehow transforms into a European invader.

Not more than a month or so, your partner in crime posted a story about a poor "Palestinian" family who turned out to be Lebanese.

The real facts are that there has been a great deal of immigration into the geographical area known as Palestine in the past two hundred years or so. Before that, there was an Arab Muslim conquest. And before that were the indigenous Jewish people.

The descendants of indigenous people, that practiced Judaism, Samaritanism, Roman, Caanite religions etc., are still in Palestine, they happen to follow the Christian and Muslim faiths today. The European Jews were from Europe and were Europeans.

Surprise: Ashkenazi Jews Are Genetically European
Surprise: Ashkenazi Jews Are Genetically European

Immigration to Palestine over the past 200 years has been overwhelmingly Jewish.


"59. The conclusion is that Arab illegal immigration for the purposes of permanent settlement is insignificant."

A Survey of Palestine Vol 1, page 212, para. 59

A Survey of Palestine Volume 1 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ Stanford University

Conversely:

" It follows that the Jewish population may now include between 50,000 and 60,000 illegal immigrants who have settled in Palestine at any time since 1920 when the first Immigration Ordinance was enacted. "

A Survey of Palestine Vol 1, page 210, para. 54

A Survey of Palestine Volume 1 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ Stanford University

On the other hand:

The Arabs in Palestine | Jewish Virtual Library

A Population Boom
As Hussein foresaw, the regeneration of Palestine, and the growth of its population, came only after Jews returned in massive numbers. The Jewish population increased by 470,000 between World War I and World War II while the non-Jewish population rose by 588,000. In fact, the permanent Arab population increased 120 percent between 1922 and 1947.

This rapid growth was a result of several factors. One was immigration from neighboring states — constituting 37 percent of the total immigration to pre-state Israel — by Arabs who wanted to take advantage of the higher standard of living the Jews had made possible. The Arab population also grew because of the improved living conditions created by the Jews as they drained malarial swamps and brought improved sanitation and health care to the region. Thus, for example, the Muslim infant mortality rate fell from 201 per thousand in 1925 to 94 per thousand in 1945 and life expectancy rose from 37 years in 1926 to 49 in 1943.

The Arab population increased the most in cities with large Jewish populations that had created new economic opportunities. From 19221947, the non-Jewish population increased 290 percent in Haifa, 131 percent in Jerusalem and 158 percent in Jaffa. The growth in Arab towns was more modest: 42 percent in Nablus, 78 percent in Jenin and 37 percent in Bethlehem.

LOL. Jewish Virtual Library a propaganda site, versus an official Anglo-American survey commissioned by the UN. Well done.

And carried out by arab muslims for the lazy Jew haters that made up the commission so they could get drunk every night of the 3 weeks they were there.

 

[Phoenall]

Bleipriester, et al,

Yeah, this is one-hell-of-a subject. It really kicks in on skills in formal presentations. And this particular question (The Case of the Golan Heights) is a compound and complex question; if nothing else.

In the Original Posting - "Israel's Legal Right To Exist" - the status of the Golan Heights is irrelevant. The Golan Heights Issue that starts from a 1981 timeframe. The question of existance starts from a 1948 timeframe. IF Israel has no "Right" to exist, THEN it has not "Right" to hold any territory. The question, in terms of "Rights" relative to the Golan Heights is moot.

"Rights" + "Title" + "Sovereignty" are all independent concepts in relation to "Reality" (Ground Truth).

The UN now demands that the occupied Golan returns to Syria.

(REFERENCES)

Israel seized 1,200 square kilometers (460 square miles) of the Golan during the Six-Day War of 1967, then annexed it in 1981 in a move never recognized by the international community.

A first group of 127 UN Disengagement Observer Force (UNDOF) peacekeepers returned Monday to a camp on the Syrian-held side of the Golan Heights, two years after withdrawing amid clashes with Al-Qaeda-linked Syrian rebels.
United Nations (United States) (AFP)

The UN demanded that Israel comply with the international legitimacy's resolutions on the occupied Syrian Golan, particularly the Security Council resolution no. 497 of 1981 that declared Israel's decision to impose its laws and jurisdiction on the Golan as "null and void and without international legal effect".
Sign of the Times (SOTT) Wed, 18 Nov 2015
UN demands Israel annul illegal annexation of Syria's Golan Heights

UNSC Resolution 242 (1967) Middle East Conflict (22 Nov)
UNSC Resolution 338 (1973) Israel-Syrian Arab Republic (22 Oct)
UNSC Resolution 485 (1981) Israel-Syrian Arab Republic (22 May)
UNSC Resolution 493 (1981) Israel-Syrian Arab Republic (23 Nov)
UNSC Resolution 497 (1981) Israel-Syrian Arab Republic (17 Dec)

General Assembly A/70/480 (1 DEC 2015) Permanent sovereignty of the Palestinian people in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and of the Arab population in the occupied Syrian Golan over their natural resources

General Assembly severely criticizes the "Occupying Power" (Israel) and leave the issue of Arab Palestinian wrong doing, Jihadism, Deadly Fedayeen Action, Hostile Insurgency Operations, Radicalized Islamic Behaviors, and Asymmetric Violence completely unadressed as a causation for current outcomes.​

(DIRECT OBSERVATION)

View attachment 100557​

(COMMENT)

It is unlikely that anything the UN does will actually change the ground truth. In fact, it is more likely that any enforcement action will trigger open conflict --- which --- will (with greater probability) result (yet again) even greater losses and casualties for the Arab Palestinians to bear. This would even be more likely if the Arab Palestinians ignite violence in the City of Jerusalem or the Golan Heights.

The UNDOF, much like the UNEF in the Sinai, will not act as a barrier - but step aside at the first sign of trouble just like the UNEF did in 1967.

Currently, the only military forces (land, sea, or air) in the region (not currently engaging DAESH, another similar radical islamic movement) are pointed towards Israel. Other than Israel, there are no Allied Forces capable of influencing the battlefield in time to "prevent an armed conflict."

The regional Arab nations (in this DAESH turbulant region) have to exercise some discretion in the ignition of a conflict. Should the conflict start in the significant combat loss in Arab Forces, DAESH will not hesitate to take advantage of any weakness.

Most Respectfully,
R

The definitions of the "right to exist" vary in Israel´s case. For some, it is the right to do anything and the right to not to be criticized. Israel is without mistakes and its actions above human ability to judge, they say.

According to the hate sites and islamonazi propaganda

According to people who have discussed it with people like you.

No as we dont discus such things we are on a much higher level and discus such things as why dont the arab muslims employ international law to lift the blockade and occupation.........

 

[Phoenall]

Poor Holly is bewildered.

Poor freddy is in breach of the rules, and will go into meltdown when he is censured

 

[Phoenall]

1. Is it the "lie" that the Jewish Palestinians have the same rights to self-determination as the Arab Palestinians?

Yes, but not at the expense of other people.

The Palestinians rightly refused to accept the transfer of Europeans to Palestine as it would naturally eliminate their ability to achieve self-determination as a people as a whole.

2. Is it the "lie" that the Jewish Palestinians fulfilled their obligations to be able to "stand alone"?

Yes, by expelling hundreds of thousands of Christians and Muslims. Contrary to the terms of the Mandate.

3. Is it the "lie" that the Jewish Palestinians declared and were internationally recognized for their sovereign independence?

Again, through the expulsion and elimination by other means of the Christians and Muslims, contrary to the terms of the Mandate.

4. Or is it the "lie" that the Arab Palestinians have still (!) failed to fulfill their obligations?

The British prevented the Christians and Muslims from fulfilling their obligations earlier and now the Israelis are an occupying power that prevents any possibility self-determination.

Which isnt happening, and never has

So how did that work, when 50,000 arab muslim terrorists were evicted as being enemies of the state which is legal under the UN charter and international laws.

How did that work as they were recognised as being able to stand alone, not on your fantasy of them having evicted thousands of non Jews. The numbers of Christians pre war of independence was the same as post war of independence showing that once again you LIE

How did this happen as all they needed to do was stand up and declare their intentions. The only way to stop that would be to silence every voice, and that would have been headline news for years after. You need to brush up on exactly what self determination is, and how it is achieved

 

[Phoenall]

So wait a minute, hold on. Just to make sure I understand:

You agree that the Jewish people have a right to self-determination on that territory.

You believe that self-determination does NOT include the right to invite or control immigration.

You believe that the mere presence of other people with rights to self-determination restricts or removes your ability to self-govern or have self-determination?

And you believe "occupation" prevents developing self-determination?

Stupid or what ? He is arguing now for the sake of argument because he has been evicted from all the other boards he posts on because of his spamming.

 

[Phoenall]

No, I am saying that the European Jews had no right to self-determination on a territory inhabited by other people with a right to self-determination.

Then the arab muslims from Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Jordan and Saudi also dont have the right to self determination on territory inhabited by other people who are legally palestinians.

 

[Phoenall]

No, I am saying that the European Jews had no right to self-determination on a territory inhabited by other people with a right to self-determination.

But the Jewish Palestinians have the right to self-determination, yes?

Which includes those from Europe who were made palestinians under international laws

 

[Phoenall]

Bleipriester, et al,

You may make this claim; but what impact does it have.

The definitions of the "right to exist" vary in Israel´s case. For some, it is the right to do anything and the right to not to be criticized. Israel is without mistakes and its actions above human ability to judge, they say.

(COMMENT)

The Israelis generally believe that every --- universally --- have the very same rights. The idea is that the Rights of one group cannot deprive the Rights of another group.

Most Respectfully,
R

There is no Palestine so this idea apparently didn´t make it to the government.

There has been an area called palestine since the Romans named it so in the 1C C.E. It did not become a nation until 1988 when the arab muslims declared it as such. The way they are performing they will lose even this small prize

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yeah, you keep saying that. But it is entirely the WRONG interpretation.

ARTICLE I6.

Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.

You post this all the time. Neither the LoN nor the Mandate claimed any sovereignty. The LoN did say who would be the benefactors of their tutelage. They used terms like the people, the inhabitants, the natives, and the indigenous. There was no mention of foreigners.

So who were these people? The treaty of Lausanne spelled that out.

SECTION II .
NATIONALITY.
ARTICLE 30.

Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipsofacto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.​

They were talking about the people who actually lived there being citizens of their respective states. No foreigners were mentioned. The Palestinians have the right to sovereignty on their land as affirmed by subsequent UN resolutions.

(COMMENT)

You get this wrong every single time, as if repeating it over and over again will somehow change it.

• Article 16 is in the first Part and first Section of the Treaty. It is called: "TERRITORIAL CLAUSES."

§ This section deals with the disposition of territory for which the Ottoman Empire/Turkish Republic forfeits. In this case, ALL the territory outside the frontiers of the Turkish Republic. The only exception is territorial arrangements covered by special arrangements arising from some previously honored diplomatic relations.
​

• Article 30 is in the first Part and second Section of the Treaty. It is called "NATIONALITY."

§ This section deals with people who the question of nationality might be considered ambiguous under the operation of its law prior to this treaty. It insures that there si a uniform understanding among the various Mandatories as to how certain people are addressed. Although Article 30 mentions no particular territory, in its application relative to the territory under the Mandate of Palestine applies --- as the nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred: The Government of Palestine. That would be from the Mesopotamian Border to the Mediterranean Sea. The use of the word "State" in this case, insures that the citizenship passes into the follow-on Sovereignty as defined by the Mandatory. In this case, the population East of the Jordan River would become citizens of Trans-Jordan when Britain (the Mandatory) formally recognized the Emirate of Transjordan as a state on 15 May 1923 under the leadership of the first Emir (Abdullah).
​

Section I, Article 16, does not determine citizenship, and Section II, Article 30 does not impact the Rights and Title of the Territory. Article 30 says which citizenship the people are assigned based on the territorial determination on Article 16. In the case of Palestine, that authority was delineated in (first) the Palestine Order in Council --- then the Citizenship Order of 1925.

The Territorial Government drives Nationality, NOT the other way around.

Most Respectfully,
R

As usual, you are full of shit Rocco. The Citizenship Order was enacted by the British Government, not by the (territorial) Government of Palestine. Interestingly, this was the only such citizenship order enacted by Great Britain in any of their mandates or territories at that time.

Are you for real, what was seen as the Government of palestine from 1922 to 1948. There was no arab muslim Government in place was there, no Jewish government and no Christian government. Just the appointed mandatory Government of palestine

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore,

It is Article 22.

but was not a sovereign State because it had not fulfilled the obligations required, under treaty, to "self-govern and stand alone".

Unsubstantiated Israeli talking point.

(COMMENT)

Excerpts:

"inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves"
"best method of giving practical effect to this principle is that the tutelage of such peoples should be entrusted to advanced nations"
"advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone"

And nothing even remotely Palestinian meets that criteria. But, it makes no difference now. The Arab Palestinians have made themselves such a threat, that it will be decades before they and can exercise self-governance and stand alone.

Most Respectfully,
R

You are a disgusting racist Rocco. The British made it impossible for the Christians and Muslims to "stand by themselves" by refusing to negotiate or give any standing to the Christian and Muslim leadership. They only negotiated with the Zionist Organization.

The Palestinians were far more capable to self-govern in 1922 than any other former Ottoman territory. They were better educated, secular than any other former Turkish Arab territory.

It was the intent of the British to prevent any self government of the Christians and Muslims until they could flood the country with European Jews.

For starters it was the arab muslims that refused to negotiate with the LoN or its mandatory, this was a show of arab muslim free determination. If they had the ability to stand alone then they would have been granted the lands, as it was even Jordan took until 1946 before it was deemed to stand alone.

Another of your unsubstantiated LIES as the majority of arab muslims could not read or write, they were too busy following the work as the crops ripened.


Yet another unsubstantiated LIE that you refuse to prove.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore,

It is Article 22.

but was not a sovereign State because it had not fulfilled the obligations required, under treaty, to "self-govern and stand alone".

Unsubstantiated Israeli talking point.

(COMMENT)

Excerpts:

"inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves"
"best method of giving practical effect to this principle is that the tutelage of such peoples should be entrusted to advanced nations"
"advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone"

And nothing even remotely Palestinian meets that criteria. But, it makes no difference now. The Arab Palestinians have made themselves such a threat, that it will be decades before they and can exercise self-governance and stand alone.

Most Respectfully,
R

You are a disgusting racist Rocco. The British made it impossible for the Christians and Muslims to "stand by themselves" by refusing to negotiate or give any standing to the Christian and Muslim leadership. They only negotiated with the Zionist Organization.

The Palestinians were far more capable to self-govern in 1922 than any other former Ottoman territory. They were better educated, secular than any other former Turkish Arab territory.

It was the intent of the British to prevent any self government of the Christians and Muslims until they could flood the country with European Jews.

The British made nothing impossible. The Arabs-Moslems simply didn't have, and still don't have, the ability to take the steps necessary to establish a functioning government and enable self-determination. You can make all the excuses you can muster to blame external entities for Arab-Moslem failures but you would then have to find excuses for the continued failures of Arabs-Moslems to form workable societies.

You have been reading too much of Rocco's crap.

NO it is you that has been reading too much islamonazi propaganda crap and hate site LIES

 

[Phoenall]

when it gave the arab muslims trans Jordan

Where does it say that?

LoN minutes for the mandate of palestine. And the mandate of palestine
Links given many hundreds of times in the past so you are at fault for not taking them on board

 

[Phoenall]

The Palestinians have the right to sovereignty on their land as affirmed by subsequent UN resolutions.

Yep. The Jewish Palestinians and the Arab Christian and Muslim Palestinians BOTH have the right to sovereignty over a portion of the land.

Can we get on with negotiating the borders now?

Link?

The same one you use to show that arab muslims have the only right to rule palestine

Which Arab Muslims are you talking about?

The ones you claim are the only ones to have any rights of course

 

[Phoenall]

Where do you think citizenship is granted?

Well, it shouldn't be imposed by foreigners at the point of a gun.

It wasnt, it was offered as a gift. It was the arab muslims that held all the guns