Israel's Legal Right To Exist

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore,

It is Article 22.

but was not a sovereign State because it had not fulfilled the obligations required, under treaty, to "self-govern and stand alone".

Unsubstantiated Israeli talking point.

(COMMENT)

Excerpts:

"inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves"
"best method of giving practical effect to this principle is that the tutelage of such peoples should be entrusted to advanced nations"
"advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone"

And nothing even remotely Palestinian meets that criteria. But, it makes no difference now. The Arab Palestinians have made themselves such a threat, that it will be decades before they and can exercise self-governance and stand alone.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[montelatici]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yeah, you keep saying that. But it is entirely the WRONG interpretation.

ARTICLE I6.

Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.

You post this all the time. Neither the LoN nor the Mandate claimed any sovereignty. The LoN did say who would be the benefactors of their tutelage. They used terms like the people, the inhabitants, the natives, and the indigenous. There was no mention of foreigners.

So who were these people? The treaty of Lausanne spelled that out.

SECTION II .
NATIONALITY.
ARTICLE 30.

Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipsofacto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.​

They were talking about the people who actually lived there being citizens of their respective states. No foreigners were mentioned. The Palestinians have the right to sovereignty on their land as affirmed by subsequent UN resolutions.

(COMMENT)

You get this wrong every single time, as if repeating it over and over again will somehow change it.

• Article 16 is in the first Part and first Section of the Treaty. It is called: "TERRITORIAL CLAUSES."

§ This section deals with the disposition of territory for which the Ottoman Empire/Turkish Republic forfeits. In this case, ALL the territory outside the frontiers of the Turkish Republic. The only exception is territorial arrangements covered by special arrangements arising from some previously honored diplomatic relations.
​

• Article 30 is in the first Part and second Section of the Treaty. It is called "NATIONALITY."

§ This section deals with people who the question of nationality might be considered ambiguous under the operation of its law prior to this treaty. It insures that there si a uniform understanding among the various Mandatories as to how certain people are addressed. Although Article 30 mentions no particular territory, in its application relative to the territory under the Mandate of Palestine applies --- as the nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred: The Government of Palestine. That would be from the Mesopotamian Border to the Mediterranean Sea. The use of the word "State" in this case, insures that the citizenship passes into the follow-on Sovereignty as defined by the Mandatory. In this case, the population East of the Jordan River would become citizens of Trans-Jordan when Britain (the Mandatory) formally recognized the Emirate of Transjordan as a state on 15 May 1923 under the leadership of the first Emir (Abdullah).
​

Section I, Article 16, does not determine citizenship, and Section II, Article 30 does not impact the Rights and Title of the Territory. Article 30 says which citizenship the people are assigned based on the territorial determination on Article 16. In the case of Palestine, that authority was delineated in (first) the Palestine Order in Council --- then the Citizenship Order of 1925.

The Territorial Government drives Nationality, NOT the other way around.

Most Respectfully,
R

As usual, you are full of shit Rocco. The Citizenship Order was enacted by the British Government, not by the (territorial) Government of Palestine. Interestingly, this was the only such citizenship order enacted by Great Britain in any of their mandates or territories at that time.

 

[montelatici]

P F Tinmore,

It is Article 22.

but was not a sovereign State because it had not fulfilled the obligations required, under treaty, to "self-govern and stand alone".

Unsubstantiated Israeli talking point.

(COMMENT)

Excerpts:

"inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves"
"best method of giving practical effect to this principle is that the tutelage of such peoples should be entrusted to advanced nations"
"advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone"

And nothing even remotely Palestinian meets that criteria. But, it makes no difference now. The Arab Palestinians have made themselves such a threat, that it will be decades before they and can exercise self-governance and stand alone.

Most Respectfully,
R

You are a disgusting racist Rocco. The British made it impossible for the Christians and Muslims to "stand by themselves" by refusing to negotiate or give any standing to the Christian and Muslim leadership. They only negotiated with the Zionist Organization.

The Palestinians were far more capable to self-govern in 1922 than any other former Ottoman territory. They were better educated, secular than any other former Turkish Arab territory.

It was the intent of the British to prevent any self government of the Christians and Muslims until they could flood the country with European Jews.

 

[Hollie]

P F Tinmore,

It is Article 22.

but was not a sovereign State because it had not fulfilled the obligations required, under treaty, to "self-govern and stand alone".

Unsubstantiated Israeli talking point.

(COMMENT)

Excerpts:

"inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves"
"best method of giving practical effect to this principle is that the tutelage of such peoples should be entrusted to advanced nations"
"advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone"

And nothing even remotely Palestinian meets that criteria. But, it makes no difference now. The Arab Palestinians have made themselves such a threat, that it will be decades before they and can exercise self-governance and stand alone.

Most Respectfully,
R

You are a disgusting racist Rocco. The British made it impossible for the Christians and Muslims to "stand by themselves" by refusing to negotiate or give any standing to the Christian and Muslim leadership. They only negotiated with the Zionist Organization.

The Palestinians were far more capable to self-govern in 1922 than any other former Ottoman territory. They were better educated, secular than any other former Turkish Arab territory.

It was the intent of the British to prevent any self government of the Christians and Muslims until they could flood the country with European Jews.

The British made nothing impossible. The Arabs-Moslems simply didn't have, and still don't have, the ability to take the steps necessary to establish a functioning government and enable self-determination. You can make all the excuses you can muster to blame external entities for Arab-Moslem failures but you would then have to find excuses for the continued failures of Arabs-Moslems to form workable societies.

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

You are just too funny.

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yeah, you keep saying that. But it is entirely the WRONG interpretation.

ARTICLE I6.

Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.

You post this all the time. Neither the LoN nor the Mandate claimed any sovereignty. The LoN did say who would be the benefactors of their tutelage. They used terms like the people, the inhabitants, the natives, and the indigenous. There was no mention of foreigners.

So who were these people? The treaty of Lausanne spelled that out.

SECTION II .
NATIONALITY.
ARTICLE 30.

Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipsofacto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.​

They were talking about the people who actually lived there being citizens of their respective states. No foreigners were mentioned. The Palestinians have the right to sovereignty on their land as affirmed by subsequent UN resolutions.

(COMMENT)

You get this wrong every single time, as if repeating it over and over again will somehow change it.

• Article 16 is in the first Part and first Section of the Treaty. It is called: "TERRITORIAL CLAUSES."

§ This section deals with the disposition of territory for which the Ottoman Empire/Turkish Republic forfeits. In this case, ALL the territory outside the frontiers of the Turkish Republic. The only exception is territorial arrangements covered by special arrangements arising from some previously honored diplomatic relations.
​

• Article 30 is in the first Part and second Section of the Treaty. It is called "NATIONALITY."

§ This section deals with people who the question of nationality might be considered ambiguous under the operation of its law prior to this treaty. It insures that there si a uniform understanding among the various Mandatories as to how certain people are addressed. Although Article 30 mentions no particular territory, in its application relative to the territory under the Mandate of Palestine applies --- as the nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred: The Government of Palestine. That would be from the Mesopotamian Border to the Mediterranean Sea. The use of the word "State" in this case, insures that the citizenship passes into the follow-on Sovereignty as defined by the Mandatory. In this case, the population East of the Jordan River would become citizens of Trans-Jordan when Britain (the Mandatory) formally recognized the Emirate of Transjordan as a state on 15 May 1923 under the leadership of the first Emir (Abdullah).
​

Section I, Article 16, does not determine citizenship, and Section II, Article 30 does not impact the Rights and Title of the Territory. Article 30 says which citizenship the people are assigned based on the territorial determination on Article 16. In the case of Palestine, that authority was delineated in (first) the Palestine Order in Council --- then the Citizenship Order of 1925.

The Territorial Government drives Nationality, NOT the other way around.

Most Respectfully,
R

As usual, you are full of shit Rocco. The Citizenship Order was enacted by the British Government, not by the (territorial) Government of Palestine. Interestingly, this was the only such citizenship order enacted by Great Britain in any of their mandates or territories at that time.

(COMMENT)

GB did make the Order because it had to deal with the establishment of an National Home and deal with the Emirate of Transjordan.

Yes, the Citizenship Order did come from the Mandatory. And the Government of Palestine was the Mandatory in 1925.

The Government of Palestine was the Mandatory (UK) until 15 May 48 when the UNPC became the Government of Palestine.

Privy Council, to order, and it is hereby ordered, as follows:--​

Part i, Paragraph 1: Definitions

"The High Commissioner" shall include every person for the time being administering the Government of Palestine."
​

PART II. EXECUTIVE. Office of High Commissioner. Paragraph 4.

His Majesty may, by a Commission under His Sign Manual and Signet, appoint a fit person to administer the Government of Palestine under the designation of High Commissioner and Commander-in-Chief or such other designation as His Majesty thinks fit, and the person so appointed is hereinafter referred to as the High Commissioner.
​

Where do you think citizenship is granted?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

"advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone"

And nothing even remotely Palestinian meets that criteria.

Rocco, you are sooooo full of shit. Who can stand alone with a gun in their face?

 

[P F Tinmore]

montelatici, et al,

You are just too funny.

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yeah, you keep saying that. But it is entirely the WRONG interpretation.

ARTICLE I6.

Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.

You post this all the time. Neither the LoN nor the Mandate claimed any sovereignty. The LoN did say who would be the benefactors of their tutelage. They used terms like the people, the inhabitants, the natives, and the indigenous. There was no mention of foreigners.

So who were these people? The treaty of Lausanne spelled that out.

SECTION II .
NATIONALITY.
ARTICLE 30.

Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipsofacto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.​

They were talking about the people who actually lived there being citizens of their respective states. No foreigners were mentioned. The Palestinians have the right to sovereignty on their land as affirmed by subsequent UN resolutions.

(COMMENT)

You get this wrong every single time, as if repeating it over and over again will somehow change it.

• Article 16 is in the first Part and first Section of the Treaty. It is called: "TERRITORIAL CLAUSES."

§ This section deals with the disposition of territory for which the Ottoman Empire/Turkish Republic forfeits. In this case, ALL the territory outside the frontiers of the Turkish Republic. The only exception is territorial arrangements covered by special arrangements arising from some previously honored diplomatic relations.
​

• Article 30 is in the first Part and second Section of the Treaty. It is called "NATIONALITY."

§ This section deals with people who the question of nationality might be considered ambiguous under the operation of its law prior to this treaty. It insures that there si a uniform understanding among the various Mandatories as to how certain people are addressed. Although Article 30 mentions no particular territory, in its application relative to the territory under the Mandate of Palestine applies --- as the nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred: The Government of Palestine. That would be from the Mesopotamian Border to the Mediterranean Sea. The use of the word "State" in this case, insures that the citizenship passes into the follow-on Sovereignty as defined by the Mandatory. In this case, the population East of the Jordan River would become citizens of Trans-Jordan when Britain (the Mandatory) formally recognized the Emirate of Transjordan as a state on 15 May 1923 under the leadership of the first Emir (Abdullah).
​

Section I, Article 16, does not determine citizenship, and Section II, Article 30 does not impact the Rights and Title of the Territory. Article 30 says which citizenship the people are assigned based on the territorial determination on Article 16. In the case of Palestine, that authority was delineated in (first) the Palestine Order in Council --- then the Citizenship Order of 1925.

The Territorial Government drives Nationality, NOT the other way around.

Most Respectfully,
R

As usual, you are full of shit Rocco. The Citizenship Order was enacted by the British Government, not by the (territorial) Government of Palestine. Interestingly, this was the only such citizenship order enacted by Great Britain in any of their mandates or territories at that time.

(COMMENT)

GB did make the Order because it had to deal with the establishment of an National Home and deal with the Emirate of Transjordan.

Yes, the Citizenship Order did come from the Mandatory. And the Government of Palestine was the Mandatory in 1925.

The Government of Palestine was the Mandatory (UK) until 15 May 48 when the UNPC became the Government of Palestine.

Privy Council, to order, and it is hereby ordered, as follows:--​

Part i, Paragraph 1: Definitions

"The High Commissioner" shall include every person for the time being administering the Government of Palestine."
​

PART II. EXECUTIVE. Office of High Commissioner. Paragraph 4.

His Majesty may, by a Commission under His Sign Manual and Signet, appoint a fit person to administer the Government of Palestine under the designation of High Commissioner and Commander-in-Chief or such other designation as His Majesty thinks fit, and the person so appointed is hereinafter referred to as the High Commissioner.
​

Where do you think citizenship is granted?

Most Respectfully,
R

Where does it say that a colonial power has the authority to determine who has rights?

Link?

 

[Phoenall]

The Palestinians have the right to sovereignty on their land as affirmed by subsequent UN resolutions.

Yep. The Jewish Palestinians and the Arab Christian and Muslim Palestinians BOTH have the right to sovereignty over a portion of the land.

Can we get on with negotiating the borders now?

And the LoN sorted this in 1923 when it gave the arab muslims trans Jordan and the rest to the Jews . The Christians were expected to stay in the Jewish section as full citizens of the Jewish national home.

 

[Phoenall]

The Palestinians have the right to sovereignty on their land as affirmed by subsequent UN resolutions.

Yep. The Jewish Palestinians and the Arab Christian and Muslim Palestinians BOTH have the right to sovereignty over a portion of the land.

Can we get on with negotiating the borders now?

Link?

The same one you use to show that arab muslims have the only right to rule palestine

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore,

It is Article 22.

but was not a sovereign State because it had not fulfilled the obligations required, under treaty, to "self-govern and stand alone".

Unsubstantiated Israeli talking point.

(COMMENT)

Excerpts:

"inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves"
"best method of giving practical effect to this principle is that the tutelage of such peoples should be entrusted to advanced nations"
"advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone"

And nothing even remotely Palestinian meets that criteria. But, it makes no difference now. The Arab Palestinians have made themselves such a threat, that it will be decades before they and can exercise self-governance and stand alone.

Most Respectfully,
R

You are a disgusting racist Rocco. The British made it impossible for the Christians and Muslims to "stand by themselves" by refusing to negotiate or give any standing to the Christian and Muslim leadership. They only negotiated with the Zionist Organization.

The Palestinians were far more capable to self-govern in 1922 than any other former Ottoman territory. They were better educated, secular than any other former Turkish Arab territory.

It was the intent of the British to prevent any self government of the Christians and Muslims until they could flood the country with European Jews.

The British made nothing impossible. The Arabs-Moslems simply didn't have, and still don't have, the ability to take the steps necessary to establish a functioning government and enable self-determination. You can make all the excuses you can muster to blame external entities for Arab-Moslem failures but you would then have to find excuses for the continued failures of Arabs-Moslems to form workable societies.

You have been reading too much of Rocco's crap.

 

[P F Tinmore]

when it gave the arab muslims trans Jordan

Where does it say that?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Palestinians have the right to sovereignty on their land as affirmed by subsequent UN resolutions.

Yep. The Jewish Palestinians and the Arab Christian and Muslim Palestinians BOTH have the right to sovereignty over a portion of the land.

Can we get on with negotiating the borders now?

Link?

The same one you use to show that arab muslims have the only right to rule palestine

Which Arab Muslims are you talking about?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Where do you think citizenship is granted?

Well, it shouldn't be imposed by foreigners at the point of a gun.

 

[P F Tinmore]

"advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone"

Britain did not render advice or assistance to the Palestinians. They kicked the Palestinians to the curb and catered to the foreign Zionist colonial project.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The above is another of the pointless articles you have cut and pasted multiple times across multiple threads. It is as pointless

Well, that explains why you don't know anything.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Now what disagreement is only on the Israeli side as they have constantly asked to live in peace,

They have constantly asked to live in peace on Palestinian land.

How is that supposed to be accepted?

 

[Hollie]

Now what disagreement is only on the Israeli side as they have constantly asked to live in peace,

They have constantly asked to live in peace on Palestinian land.

How is that supposed to be accepted?

The above is another of the pointless articles you have cut and pasted multiple times across multiple threads. It is as pointless

Well, that explains why you don't know anything.

On the contrary, I know that cheap excuses for failure and ineptitude on the part of Islamic terrorists are what maintain people like you.

 

[Hollie]

"advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone"

Britain did not render advice or assistance to the Palestinians. They kicked the Palestinians to the curb and catered to the foreign Zionist colonial project.

Indeed, cheap excuses modeled on "the plight of the poor, oppressed Pal'istanians", are ridiculous. Ultimately, it was the ability and willingness of the Jewish people to self-govern and self-determine that allowed them to rise above the failure and ineptitude of the Islamist squatters / invaders.

In typical Islamist whining, your entire argument is fashioned as one of the the Islamist colonial project requiring it be "given" everything with no ability on their part to self-determine, self-govern. You fail to realize that you define the Arab-Moslem colonists as helpless children, unable to do anything for themselves.

 

[Hollie]

"advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone"

And nothing even remotely Palestinian meets that criteria.

Rocco, you are sooooo full of shit. Who can stand alone with a gun in their face?

Aww, those "poor helpless Islamic terrorists".

 

[Phoenall]

Projecting doesn't make you appear any less moronic. The Egyptians are from Egypt, the Syrians are from Syria and the Lebanese are from Lebanon. The Palestinians are from Palestine and the Jews came from Europe invaded Palestine and are now squatting on Christian and Muslim land. Those are the facts.

The problem with your hypocritical point of view, monte, is a Lebanese who moves to Palestine magically becomes a Palestinian whose "ancestors have been living there for thousands of years" while a Jew whose ancestors actually have been there for thousands of years somehow transforms into a European invader.

Not more than a month or so, your partner in crime posted a story about a poor "Palestinian" family who turned out to be Lebanese.

The real facts are that there has been a great deal of immigration into the geographical area known as Palestine in the past two hundred years or so. Before that, there was an Arab Muslim conquest. And before that were the indigenous Jewish people.

The descendants of indigenous people, that practiced Judaism, Samaritanism, Roman, Caanite religions etc., are still in Palestine, they happen to follow the Christian and Muslim faiths today. The European Jews were from Europe and were Europeans.

Surprise: Ashkenazi Jews Are Genetically European
Surprise: Ashkenazi Jews Are Genetically European

Immigration to Palestine over the past 200 years has been overwhelmingly Jewish.


"59. The conclusion is that Arab illegal immigration for the purposes of permanent settlement is insignificant."

A Survey of Palestine Vol 1, page 212, para. 59

A Survey of Palestine Volume 1 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ Stanford University

Conversely:

" It follows that the Jewish population may now include between 50,000 and 60,000 illegal immigrants who have settled in Palestine at any time since 1920 when the first Immigration Ordinance was enacted. "

A Survey of Palestine Vol 1, page 210, para. 54

A Survey of Palestine Volume 1 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ Stanford University

From your link


But a new study suggests that at least their maternal lineage may derive largely from Europe.

So not all their DNA shows they are European, just about 7%

But depending on whether the lineage gets traced through maternal or paternal DNA or through the rest of the genome, researchers got very different answers for whether Ashkenazi originally came from Europe or the Near Eas

Againit depends on which part of the Genome is used, and using the majority shows they are descended from the Jews stolen by Roman Catholics as slaves between the 1C and 4C

Past research found that 50 percent to 80 percent of DNA from the Ashkenazi Y chromosome, which is used to trace the male lineage, originated in the Near East, Richards said. That supported a story wherein Jews came from Israel and largely eschewed intermarriage when they settled in Europe


So showing that you are manipulating reports to meet with your POV and not being very clever about it. You need to start looking at your links and reading the whole background


But historical documents tell a slightly different tale. Based on accounts such as those of Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, by the time of the destruction of the Second Temple in A.D. 70, as many as 6 million Jews were living in the Roman Empire

So are these to be ignored because they dont meet with your anti semitic islamocatholic views


"The major Jewish communities were outside Judea," Ostrer told LiveScience.

Then the author of your link comes out and admits that the majority of Jews were taken as slaves by the Roman Catholics and were not Europeans at all



The finding should thoroughly debunk one of the most questionable, but still tenacious, hypotheses: that most Ashkenazi Jews can trace their roots to the mysterious Khazar Kingdom that flourished during the ninth century in the region between the Byzantine Empire and the Persian Empire, Richards and Ostrer said.




Then they state that the khazars were not involved in the Jewish spread making your other claims a pack of LIES



Do you want more PUNK, or have you been shown up enough alreadyu ?