Debate Now Issues Now and Ongoing

[JoeB131]

I have lived a long and active life. Long enough to know a lie when I see one. Long enough to be able to add and subtract. Long enough to know when my own eyes and checking account or other experience informs me I am being lied to. Long enough to read and understand blatant bias when I see it.

And I will not defend a lie just because I hate another political party or person.

So where is your evidence that the Border Patrol, ICE, etc. are all lying about the number of migrants who have been apprehended?

 

[Foxfyre]

So where is your evidence that the Border Patrol, ICE, etc. are all lying about the number of migrants who have been apprehended?

Migrants who have been apprehended is immaterial. Migrants who have been allowed into the country at high cost and risk for American citizens is the problem. Try focusing on tha.

 

[JoeB131]

Migrants who have been apprehended is immaterial. Migrants who have been allowed into the country at high cost and risk for American citizens is the problem. Try focusing on tha.

Except we have figures on that as well... and it's not as big a number as you think it is.

Completing an Unprecedented 10 Million Immigration Cases in Fiscal Year 2023, USCIS Reduced Its Backlog for the First Time in Over a Decade | USCIS

Today U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) is releasing end of fiscal year (FY) 2023 data that illustrate the agency’s progress in meeting its strategic priorities. The USCIS workforce has worked tirelessly over the past year to uphold America’s promise as a nation of welcome and...

www.uscis.gov

In FY 2023, USCIS received 10.9 million filings and completed more than 10 million pending cases– both record-breaking numbers in the agency’s history. In doing so, USCIS reduced overall backlogs by 15%. Among USCIS’ record number of case completions in FY 2023, the agency administered the Oath of Allegiance to more than 878,500 new U.S. citizens, including 12,000 members of the military, effectively eliminating the backlog of naturalization applications . The median processing time for naturalization applicants decreased from 10.5 months to 6.1 months by the end of the fiscal year, achieving the agency’s longstanding goal and significantly reducing waiting times for most individuals seeking U.S. citizenship.


But, hey, the government is lying, right, because you have a feeling after you watched some edited footage from Fox News.

 

[Foxfyre]

Except we have figures on that as well... and it's not as big a number as you think it is.

Completing an Unprecedented 10 Million Immigration Cases in Fiscal Year 2023, USCIS Reduced Its Backlog for the First Time in Over a Decade | USCIS

Today U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) is releasing end of fiscal year (FY) 2023 data that illustrate the agency’s progress in meeting its strategic priorities. The USCIS workforce has worked tirelessly over the past year to uphold America’s promise as a nation of welcome and...

www.uscis.gov

In FY 2023, USCIS received 10.9 million filings and completed more than 10 million pending cases– both record-breaking numbers in the agency’s history. In doing so, USCIS reduced overall backlogs by 15%. Among USCIS’ record number of case completions in FY 2023, the agency administered the Oath of Allegiance to more than 878,500 new U.S. citizens, including 12,000 members of the military, effectively eliminating the backlog of naturalization applications . The median processing time for naturalization applicants decreased from 10.5 months to 6.1 months by the end of the fiscal year, achieving the agency’s longstanding goal and significantly reducing waiting times for most individuals seeking U.S. citizenship.


But, hey, the government is lying, right, because you have a feeling after you watched some edited footage from Fox News.

Again you don't seem to differentiate against those invading the country and those using the legal immigration process to come here.

 

[JoeB131]

Again you don't seem to differentiate against those invading the country and those using the legal immigration process to come here.

Because we haven't as a country done the things to differentiate.

National ID and strict workplace enforcement, problem solved.

Most of the undocumented are either sent back or have legitimate asylum claims that should be processed.

 

[Foxfyre]

Bumping this thread to show that so far only one person on the left has had enough courage of his convictions to go on the record on the named issues and only two of the three at that. If that trend continues it is rather telling don't you think?

 

[Foxfyre]

Because we haven't as a country done the things to differentiate.

National ID and strict workplace enforcement, problem solved.

Most of the undocumented are either sent back or have legitimate asylum claims that should be processed.

I don't know ANY Patriots who think a National ID is a good idea. Put a bad totalitarian minded government in place and it makes room for all kinds of ugly mischief. I'm quite happy with the states providing real ID.

And there is no such thing as strict workplace enforcement because it puts an impossible burden on employers. In the 1970's there was a mandate for strict workplace enforcement to ensure that only people in the country legally were required to show a minimum of three documents of ID and residency. It was only a matter of days before cottage industries sprang up producing phony documents and no way employers were equipped to know what documents were real and what were not. And those needing to put someone to work immediately would think they would get the documents later but often did not. It was so unenforceable that the mandate was dropped.

And I would say the data shows the only ones already convicted of serious crimes are being sent back. Nobody allowed in is being deported and court dates assigned are years down the road for millions.

 

[Foxfyre]

And it should be noted that one consideration is that there is a push out there for all of the millions of migrants now in the country and all yet to come to be granted amnesty and a path to citizenship. That definitely in my opinion should be part of the consideration of whatever we choose as our personal opinion on the policy.

 

[JoeB131]

Those seeking asylum should do so in the first country they come to.

Not what our law says. It says they can present themselves at any point of entry. Doesn't matter how many other countries they visited. Do you also want them to say "Simon Says"?

Why are we even considering asylum for at least 27,000 single military age Chinese men?

Why not? Do you think they are going to secretly form a PLA Division and go running amok in the country?

Biden/Harris are deliberating flooding the country with migrants toward the end of making them citizens, all dutiful Democrat voters of course. And my gut tells me that is to so solidify their power that they will achieve the totalitarian government with former Democrats in charge that is the ultimate goal.

Republicans have spent the last 20 years alienating (pun intended) immigrants, legal and illegal alike. I mean, Dubya almost got it, he proposed a sensible path to citizenship, but the Tancredo/Trump wing of the party shot him down. (Oh, I wasn't supposed to mention politicians or parties, but you did it first.)

I don't know ANY Patriots who think a National ID is a good idea. Put a bad totalitarian minded government in place and it makes room for all kinds of ugly mischief. I'm quite happy with the states providing real ID.

I'm a patriot.
I have the DD214 to prove it.

Frankly, other than your paranoia, what logical reason do you have to be against National ID? So the government doesn't know too much about us? Heck, this nitwit who took a pot-shot at Trump's security detail today, we know everything about him in less than five hours. We post what we are eating on the internet. Please don't tell me that a national ID would be "totalitarian"

And there is no such thing as strict workplace enforcement because it puts an impossible burden on employers.

HORSESHIT.

True story - the third shittiest company I ever worked for had these undocumented aliens in the back who used to pack out kits for us. They weren't on our payroll, they were on the payroll of the staffing company. They knew they were illegal, we knew they were illegal. I used to joke I should go out in the warehouse and yell "LA MIGRA!" as loud as I could, just for laughs.

Well, after they downsized me after 6 years of loyal service and cured me of Republican Stupidity, (long story, I've gone into other places) this company was bought out by another company. According to friends who continued to work there, the new company put out a mandate that even if they were contractors, the employment agency had to verify their eligibility.

Away went the Mexicans, and in came a bunch of scary as shit white people with various substance abuse problems. Scared the office ladies so bad they asked to be escorted to their cars. After payday, they'd all get high and not show up the following Monday.

Employers know exactly who they are hiring. The bad ones just don't care.

And it should be noted that one consideration is that there is a push out there for all of the millions of migrants now in the country and all yet to come to be granted amnesty and a path to citizenship. That definitely in my opinion should be part of the consideration of whatever we choose as our personal opinion on the policy.

Sounds like a good reason to fix our immigration and verification systems. But we won't do that because the One Percenters WANT an easily exploited workforce.

 

[Foxfyre]

Not what our law says. It says they can present themselves at any point of entry. Doesn't matter how many other countries they visited. Do you also want them to say "Simon Says"?



Why not? Do you think they are going to secretly form a PLA Division and go running amok in the country?





Republicans have spent the last 20 years alienating (pun intended) immigrants, legal and illegal alike. I mean, Dubya almost got it, he proposed a sensible path to citizenship, but the Tancredo/Trump wing of the party shot him down. (Oh, I wasn't supposed to mention politicians or parties, but you did it first.)



I'm a patriot.
I have the DD214 to prove it.

Frankly, other than your paranoia, what logical reason do you have to be against National ID? So the government doesn't know too much about us? Heck, this nitwit who took a pot-shot at Trump's security detail today, we know everything about him in less than five hours. We post what we are eating on the internet. Please don't tell me that a national ID would be "totalitarian"



HORSESHIT.

True story - the third shittiest company I ever worked for had these undocumented aliens in the back who used to pack out kits for us. They weren't on our payroll, they were on the payroll of the staffing company. They knew they were illegal, we knew they were illegal. I used to joke I should go out in the warehouse and yell "LA MIGRA!" as loud as I could, just for laughs.

Well, after they downsized me after 6 years of loyal service and cured me of Republican Stupidity, (long story, I've gone into other places) this company was bought out by another company. According to friends who continued to work there, the new company put out a mandate that even if they were contractors, the employment agency had to verify their eligibility.

Away went the Mexicans, and in came a bunch of scary as shit white people with various substance abuse problems. Scared the office ladies so bad they asked to be escorted to their cars. After payday, they'd all get high and not show up the following Monday.

Employers know exactly who they are hiring. The bad ones just don't care.



Sounds like a good reason to fix our immigration and verification systems. But we won't do that because the One Percenters WANT an easily exploited workforce.

I was careful not to mention any specific politician/personality or political party. And small anecdotal stories do not even begin to address the actual issue.

 

[JoeB131]

I was careful not to mention any specific politician/personality or political party. And small anecdotal stories do not even begin to address the actual issue.

That wasn't your original parameter. Your original parameter was.

THERE IS ONE RULE FOR THIS THREAD: You cannot mention a political party nor any political personality. The focus is on the issues alone.

Then you specifically said this.

Biden/Harris are deliberating flooding the country with migrants toward the end of making them citizens, all dutiful Democrat voters of course. And my gut tells me that is to so solidify their power that they will achieve the totalitarian government with former Democrats in charge that is the ultimate goal.


Seems to me you couldn't follow your own rule.

So I focused on the issue-

Our immigration system is broken and does not meet the labor needs of the country.

I offered solutions, which is to fix the system and discourage undocumented immigration by removing the incentive to come here.

None of which you like because they would involve more government.

 

[Foxfyre]

That wasn't your original parameter. Your original parameter was.



Then you specifically said this.

Biden/Harris are deliberating flooding the country with migrants toward the end of making them citizens, all dutiful Democrat voters of course. And my gut tells me that is to so solidify their power that they will achieve the totalitarian government with former Democrats in charge that is the ultimate goal.


Seems to me you couldn't follow your own rule.

So I focused on the issue-

Our immigration system is broken and does not meet the labor needs of the country.

I offered solutions, which is to fix the system and discourage undocumented immigration by removing the incentive to come here.

None of which you like because they would involve more government.

You're right and my bad. I honestly thought I was in a different thread. I will try to get the mods to remove that post.

 

[Foxfyre]

Confessing that I asked Aye to remove one of my posts that violated my own rule for this thread. Accidents happen but I definitely screwed up.

 

[candycorn]

This thread is a personal experiment to see if anybody at USMB can think of actual issues outside the framework of political parties or personalities. And to satisfy curiosity if anybody has the courage to actually take a stand on anything.

THERE IS ONE RULE FOR THIS THREAD: You cannot mention a political party nor any political personality. The focus is on the issues alone.

You will get extra credit if you are willing to explain your vote.

Prior to 2015, Immigration was polling at 3% on a Gallup poll

After 2024 or 2028 depending on who wins the election, it will go back down.

its a ginned up issue to motivate bigots and dumb white people.

 

[Foxfyre]

So this thread is now four days old and so far only one leftist has been willing to go on the record to vote on two of the three issues. Not a single other leftist has been willing to go on the record for any position.

Just based on this relatively small sampling of people, it would seem those on the right have much more confidence in the integrity of their positions on these issues.

Meanwhile most polls seem to support the position of those on the right. Google is suppressing a lot of information that had been readily available but:


Most Americans want the migrants deported:

MSN

www.msn.com

Most Americans support requirement of proof of citizenship to register to vote:

Voting laws: Americans support requiring proof of citizenship to vote | YouGov

Looking ahead to the 2022 midterm elections, Americans are more split on whether it will be held fairly: 32% have quite a bit or a great deal of confidence it will be, 23% have a moderate amount of confidence, and 32% have a little or none.

today.yougov.com

In 2021: Amercians overwhelmingly support Voter ID

80% Of Americans Support Voter ID Rules—But Fewer Worried About Fraud, Poll Finds

Americans are divided on whether to make voting easier or more restrictive as state lawmakers and the Senate weigh new voting legislation.

www.forbes.com

 

[Foxfyre]

This thread is now seven days old and to date only one leftist has had the courage of his convictions to mark the poll on two of the three issues.

The news lately however has been full of the massive amounts of ineligible voters still on the rolls in multiple states and early voting is already underway in some states and will be in others as time passes. The Democrats continue to condemn the Republicans for wanting to be sure that only citizens can register to vote and that only eligible citizens can actually vote.

Meanwhile the conventional news reports that migrant crossings are down with a mere 1700 or so crossing on average now. If that number drops below 1500 then the 'crack down'(cough) is lifted and up to 2500 plus 'special cases' will be allowed to cross daily. If you do the math that would be roughly under just one million per year.

And that doesn't count the thousands that are being allowed to fly directly here from Venezuela, Haiti, Cuba and Nicaragua bypassing the CBP entirely.

 

[Foxfyre]

The polls suggest that the majority of voters like Trump policies far better than Harris policies.

Rasmussen's recent telephone poll says voters base their vote on policy more than party or personality.
". . .The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone and online survey finds that 68% of Likely U.S. Voters say that, in deciding their vote for president, the candidate’s policy agenda matters most. Eighteen percent (18%) say the candidate’s personality and character matter most, while 11% say what matters most is the candidate’s party. . ."

Election 2024: Policies Matter Most, Voters Say

Parties and personalities are not the decisive factor in how most voters make their presidential choices.

www.rasmussenreports.com

The problem is that the MSM is falsifying and distorting Trump's stated policies and agenda in a malicious negative way and are not reporting Harris's policies and agenda at all.

And she isn't about to inform the public of her policies and agenda. Just as the leftists, except for one, on this forum won't go on the record with theirs in the short poll for this thread.

When anyone is unwilling to state their political opinions/beliefs/agenda, you can pretty much take it to the bank that those opinions/beliefs/agenda are terrible for America and Americans.

 

[task0778]

Rasmussen's recent telephone poll says voters base their vote on policy more than party or personality.
". . .The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone and online survey finds that 68% of Likely U.S. Voters say that, in deciding their vote for president, the candidate’s policy agenda matters most. Eighteen percent (18%) say the candidate’s personality and character matter most, while 11% say what matters most is the candidate’s party. . ."

I hope this is true but I kinda have my doubts. I think there is a whole lot more voters than 18% who will vote based more on personality and character than on policy agenda. And that is scary IMHO, plus that 11% who believe the political party is more important are really stupid. My understanding is that most of the DNP's agenda is south of 50% and in some cases way south. And yet it appears to be a close race between Harris and Trump.

 

[JoeB131]

The problem is that the MSM is falsifying and distorting Trump's stated policies and agenda in a malicious negative way and are not reporting Harris's policies and agenda at all.

The MSM is doing nothing of the sort.

Here's Trump saying he will deport women and babies.

He has said he will use the military to aid in deportations (which is a violation of federal law).

Rasmussen's recent telephone poll says voters base their vote on policy more than party or personality.

Rasmussen is a political hack. Not surprisingly, he's the only pollster showing Trump leading right now.

 

[Foxfyre]

I hope this is true but I kinda have my doubts. I think there is a whole lot more voters than 18% who will vote based more on personality and character than on policy agenda. And that is scary IMHO, plus that 11% who believe the political party is more important are really stupid. My understanding is that most of the DNP's agenda is south of 50% and in some cases way south. And yet it appears to be a close race between Harris and Trump.

Dang I again violated my own rule for this thread by naming the candidates and political parties. My bad and sorry about that. I will try to not do that again.

But I do think if the voters had good information about the agendas and track record of those running, the one promoting a controlled border, expelling those who have no legal right to be here, promoting integrity of our election process, and an America first agenda of liberty, choices and opportunity to achieve prosperity for all as well as world peace would win in a landslide.

I think even those who say they oppose that do not have strength of their convictions. That's why they would not go public with their opposition in the poll for this thread.