Iwo Jima- Uncommon Valor and wasted lives

[whitehall]

We are coming up on the 68th anniversary of the 36 day battle of Iwo Jima on Feb. 19th. The shocking casualty statistics were overshadowed by the Uncommon Valor of the US Marines. Almost 7,000 Marines killed and about 26,000 wounded in 36 days. The amazing Joe Rosenthal photo of the Flag raising on Mt Suribachi was the most copied photo in history but the event was just the beginning of the battle. In a week several of the Flag raisers would be killed. The big question has always been, was it worth it. You have to consider that the original mission was to take the airfield and suppress Japanese fighter planes from harassing US bombers. After the shocking statistics became evident the government revised the original mission parameters and claimed that the intent was to use Iwo Jima as a landing site for crippled bombers. Either US intelligence was profoundly faulty about Japanese resistance or the Marine assault was a training experiment for the invasion of the mainland or the Navy Dept didn't give a damn how many Marine lives it would take so that crippled Bomber crews would have a convenient landing site. Either way the Marines got the shitty end of the stick.

 

[TheOldSchool]

Coordination between troops because of the limitations in communications could have been to blame. But I'm sure command at the time was not fucking around.

 

[mudwhistle]

We are coming up on the 68th anniversary of the 36 day battle of Iwo Jima on Feb. 19th. The shocking casualty statistics were overshadowed by the Uncommon Valor of the US Marines. Almost 7,000 Marines killed and about 26,000 wounded in 36 days. The amazing Joe Rosenthal photo of the Flag raising on Mt Suribachi was the most copied photo in history but the event was just the beginning of the battle. In a week several of the Flag raisers would be killed. The big question has always been, was it worth it. You have to consider that the original mission was to take the airfield and suppress Japanese fighter planes from harassing US bombers. After the shocking statistics became evident the government revised the original mission parameters and claimed that the intent was to use Iwo Jima as a landing site for crippled bombers. Either US intelligence was profoundly faulty about Japanese resistance or the Marine assault was a training experiment for the invasion of the mainland or the Navy Dept didn't give a damn how many Marine lives it would take so that crippled Bomber crews would have a convenient landing site. Either way the Marines got the shitty end of the stick.

Don't they always?

No other outfit could take that island. It was literally Hell on Earth for both sides.

I seriously don't think it would have been taken that way today. Nobody would have the stomach for it.

 

[Redbone]

Do not think that we do not have that kind of Marine today. We do but just nowhere near that many. The ever increasing intrusion of political social engineering with the military has changed the foundation so greatly that we could not field that size , equipped and well trained army as quickly now as we did in World War Two.
Those men were the greatest generation.

 

[Mr. H.]

When I was a kid, we had a neighbor that was a Marine Iwo Jima. He never said a word of it to his family.
His boys were the meanest mother scratchers ever. Like it was instinctive. Sucker punching, foul mouthed bastards. One of them called my mother "Mrs. Shit". LOL. Good people tho. Today we're good friends with his kids. He died a while back.

 

[Oldguy]

Do not think that we do not have that kind of Marine today. We do but just nowhere near that many. The ever increasing intrusion of political social engineering with the military has changed the foundation so greatly that we could not field that size , equipped and well trained army as quickly now as we did in World War Two.
Those men were the greatest generation.

Of course we could field a force that big again if we needed to. Heck, we could double it if the situation warranted because we now have twice the population.

We haven't done so since WWII only because there hasn't been the need for a force that large.

As for that "Greatest Generation" label? LOL Remember...it was they who raised the beatniks and hippies! They may have been great soldiers, but I'm not so sure about their parenting skills.

 

[Oldguy]

We are coming up on the 68th anniversary of the 36 day battle of Iwo Jima on Feb. 19th. The shocking casualty statistics were overshadowed by the Uncommon Valor of the US Marines. Almost 7,000 Marines killed and about 26,000 wounded in 36 days. The amazing Joe Rosenthal photo of the Flag raising on Mt Suribachi was the most copied photo in history but the event was just the beginning of the battle. In a week several of the Flag raisers would be killed. The big question has always been, was it worth it. You have to consider that the original mission was to take the airfield and suppress Japanese fighter planes from harassing US bombers. After the shocking statistics became evident the government revised the original mission parameters and claimed that the intent was to use Iwo Jima as a landing site for crippled bombers. Either US intelligence was profoundly faulty about Japanese resistance or the Marine assault was a training experiment for the invasion of the mainland or the Navy Dept didn't give a damn how many Marine lives it would take so that crippled Bomber crews would have a convenient landing site. Either way the Marines got the shitty end of the stick.

You may well ask that same question about the entire Pacific campaign and many have. Most, of it all, those island fortresses could have been bypassed as well as assaulted. But, politics reared its head early on.

First of all, in the years before the war, the Marine Corps was in danger of being disbanded because it was seen as a superfluous force. Why did we need two ground components? The original need for Marines was past history. So, in order to save their force, the Marines came up with a new reason for being: They designated themselves as amphibious experts and sold that to Congress, in spite of the fact that the Army had been conducting amphibious operations since at least the War of 1812 and, even today, have mounted far more and far larger operations.

Additionally, the Navy insisted that they did not want to serve under the Army in the Pacific. While they accepted McArthur as the over-all commander, they successfully sold FDR on the idea of a two-pronged assault on Japan in order to use their forces in the manner which they saw fit. The result was that the Army had the primary responsibility for the liberation of the Philippines and the Navy would take off across the central Pacific, reducing or bypassing Japanese strongholds along the way. Looking back, it's possible to see that the Navy's campaign was perfectly useless. McArthur knew it at the time, but was over-ruled in Washington.

The Navy needed to find a target to prove their new doctrine and the first opportunity was Tarawa. Instead of adopting the lessons learned from generations of Army amphibious operations, they wrote their own and the results were little short of a total disaster. Yes, they took the island, but questions were raised as to whether or not it was worth it. Those questions would be asked after every major invasion in the central Pacific because the casualty figures were invariably compared to the succession of Army assaults on the way to Manila and the Navy's casualty figures far exceeded the Army's in every instance.

Why it continued for another 2 years is politics, pure and simple.

 

[Sunni Man]

My now deceased uncle was a marine who fought on Iwo Jima.

He hated the japanese until the day he died.

And would curse and swear using the term "sons of Tojo" when he got angry.

Good guy, but hard core and tough as nails.

 

[Redbone]

My now deceased uncle was a marine who fought on Iwo Jima.

He hated the japanese until the day he died.

And would curse and swear using the term "sons of Tojo" when he got angry.

Good guy, but hard core and tough as nails.

He had just cause for his attitude. After having fought the Japanese he had insight that most Americans do not have. I have no doubt about his being a good guy, hard core and tough as nails. For that has been my experience with the ones I have met.

 

[Redbone]

Do not think that we do not have that kind of Marine today. We do but just nowhere near that many. The ever increasing intrusion of political social engineering with the military has changed the foundation so greatly that we could not field that size , equipped and well trained army as quickly now as we did in World War Two.
Those men were the greatest generation.

Of course we could field a force that big again if we needed to. Heck, we could double it if the situation warranted because we now have twice the population.

We haven't done so since WWII only because there hasn't been the need for a force that large.

As for that "Greatest Generation" label? LOL Remember...it was they who raised the beatniks and hippies! They may have been great soldiers, but I'm not so sure about their parenting skills.

I meant a force that large with that kind of spirit and determination. I just do not see it happening today because of the current idiocy of the education system in this country.

 

[editec]

We are coming up on the 68th anniversary of the 36 day battle of Iwo Jima on Feb. 19th. The shocking casualty statistics were overshadowed by the Uncommon Valor of the US Marines. Almost 7,000 Marines killed and about 26,000 wounded in 36 days. The amazing Joe Rosenthal photo of the Flag raising on Mt Suribachi was the most copied photo in history but the event was just the beginning of the battle. In a week several of the Flag raisers would be killed. The big question has always been, was it worth it. You have to consider that the original mission was to take the airfield and suppress Japanese fighter planes from harassing US bombers. After the shocking statistics became evident the government revised the original mission parameters and claimed that the intent was to use Iwo Jima as a landing site for crippled bombers. Either US intelligence was profoundly faulty about Japanese resistance or the Marine assault was a training experiment for the invasion of the mainland or the Navy Dept didn't give a damn how many Marine lives it would take so that crippled Bomber crews would have a convenient landing site. Either way the Marines got the shitty end of the stick.

Per usual, I note.

 

[Oldguy]

Do not think that we do not have that kind of Marine today. We do but just nowhere near that many. The ever increasing intrusion of political social engineering with the military has changed the foundation so greatly that we could not field that size , equipped and well trained army as quickly now as we did in World War Two.
Those men were the greatest generation.

Of course we could field a force that big again if we needed to. Heck, we could double it if the situation warranted because we now have twice the population.

We haven't done so since WWII only because there hasn't been the need for a force that large.

As for that "Greatest Generation" label? LOL Remember...it was they who raised the beatniks and hippies! They may have been great soldiers, but I'm not so sure about their parenting skills.

I meant a force that large with that kind of spirit and determination. I just do not see it happening today because of the current idiocy of the education system in this country.

I think you're wrong. Grit and determination aren't a product of the school system. As evidence, I'd point to the fact that most members of the armed forces during WWII had little formal education. A great many were like my Dad, who didn't even make it to high school.

 

[Mad Scientist]

I think you're wrong. Grit and determination aren't a product of the school system. As evidence, I'd point to the fact that most members of the armed forces during WWII had little formal education. A great many were like my Dad, who didn't even make it to high school.

The education system was much better back then and many more people were raised in a rural area, not a city.

Plus, there were far fewer broken families and out of wedlock babies back then. No, I'm not saying that the Depression Era was a completely moral time but they were certainly more Civil And Moral than people of today.

 

[regent]

There were a number of blunders in WWII, another was MacArthur returning to the Phillipines. All those men lost so that Dougout could gain fame and keep his promise to return. A number of blunders were just that but some were not, some were errors in judgement and inexperience and some were the chance to gain fame.

 

[Oldguy]

I think you're wrong. Grit and determination aren't a product of the school system. As evidence, I'd point to the fact that most members of the armed forces during WWII had little formal education. A great many were like my Dad, who didn't even make it to high school.

The education system was much better back then and many more people were raised in a rural area, not a city.

Plus, there were far fewer broken families and out of wedlock babies back then. No, I'm not saying that the Depression Era was a completely moral time but they were certainly more Civil And Moral than people of today.

The education system was BETTER? I'd like to know by what measurement!

And, no, people were no more civil or moral back then than they've been in any period of history. Human nature has always been human nature.

 

[Oldguy]

There were a number of blunders in WWII, another was MacArthur returning to the Phillipines. All those men lost so that Dougout could gain fame and keep his promise to return. A number of blunders were just that but some were not, some were errors in judgement and inexperience and some were the chance to gain fame.

America really had no choice but to liberate the Philippines. It was ours. So was Guam. We couldn't let the Japanese hold American territory without a challenge. And, both places were on the route to Japan. And, don't underestimate the propaganda value of Douglas McArthur.

As for lapses in judgment, errors and a chance to gain fame? Every war has that because wars are fought by human beings. Rank doesn't make one immune from folly or avarice or pride. Probably the most egregious example of that was Mark Clark's decision to liberate Rome, rather than cut off and trap the Germans retreating from the Cassino line in Italy. He got the glory, but the war in Italy went on right up to the very end because of it.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

There is no way that we would have defeated the Japanese by 1945 if we did not Island hop. Hell it took Mac Aurthur till late 44 to take the Philippines back.

We needed a base close enough to bomb Japan from and that was Tinian next to Saipan.

We did not have the modern equipment, doctrine or technology to go straight to Tinian and Saipan.

Further the naval Battles those island campaign caused gutted the Japanese Naval, Naval Air and Airforce. Another needed ingredient.

Some of you need to actually read the history of the Pacific War. Every Island we took was needed as a chain to allow us to take Tinian and Saipan. After that they were needed to protect the Bombers or in the case of Okinawa, give us a base close enough to invade Japan.

Even after 2 Atomic Bombs, the gutting of their industry, the inability to feed their people, the inability to provide fuel for winter fires, the Japanese Army REFUSED to surrender.

The ONLY reason Japan surrendered is that after the second Atomic Bomb the Emperor demanded a surrender. Even at that, the order from what they considered a "living God" the Army attempted a Coup to prevent the Emperor from surrendering.

And do not even start on the bullshit claim that the bombs were not needed. I have SOURCE documents to back up what I just said.

As for the Army in the Pacific, they were timid and half hearted up until Okinawa. Hell Mac Aurthur used the Australians for the tough jobs in his drive..

One Army General was relieved of Command at Makin ( Tarawa) for refusing to advance on an island abandoned by the Japanese. His timid and ineffective use of his troops tied up the back up forces for Tarawa.

 

[Redbone]

I think you're wrong. Grit and determination aren't a product of the school system. As evidence, I'd point to the fact that most members of the armed forces during WWII had little formal education. A great many were like my Dad, who didn't even make it to high school.

The education system was much better back then and many more people were raised in a rural area, not a city.

Plus, there were far fewer broken families and out of wedlock babies back then. No, I'm not saying that the Depression Era was a completely moral time but they were certainly more Civil And Moral than people of today.

The education system was BETTER? I'd like to know by what measurement!

And, no, people were no more civil or moral back then than they've been in any period of history. Human nature has always been human nature.

You are correct it was a lot more than just the education system back then that gave us such men. The greater influence was family. Family values and the fact that people were taught to embrace sacrifice for the greater good and to accomplish seemingly impossible goals with grit, determination and sacrifice. That coupled with the left over pioneer spirit and hardy nature gave us men of exceptional prowess, spirit and courage.

 

[Oldguy]

There is no way that we would have defeated the Japanese by 1945 if we did not Island hop. Hell it took Mac Aurthur till late 44 to take the Philippines back.

We needed a base close enough to bomb Japan from and that was Tinian next to Saipan.

We did not have the modern equipment, doctrine or technology to go straight to Tinian and Saipan.

Further the naval Battles those island campaign caused gutted the Japanese Naval, Naval Air and Airforce. Another needed ingredient.

Some of you need to actually read the history of the Pacific War. Every Island we took was needed as a chain to allow us to take Tinian and Saipan. After that they were needed to protect the Bombers or in the case of Okinawa, give us a base close enough to invade Japan.

Even after 2 Atomic Bombs, the gutting of their industry, the inability to feed their people, the inability to provide fuel for winter fires, the Japanese Army REFUSED to surrender.

The ONLY reason Japan surrendered is that after the second Atomic Bomb the Emperor demanded a surrender. Even at that, the order from what they considered a "living God" the Army attempted a Coup to prevent the Emperor from surrendering.

And do not even start on the bullshit claim that the bombs were not needed. I have SOURCE documents to back up what I just said.

As for the Army in the Pacific, they were timid and half hearted up until Okinawa. Hell Mac Aurthur used the Australians for the tough jobs in his drive..

One Army General was relieved of Command at Makin ( Tarawa) for refusing to advance on an island abandoned by the Japanese. His timid and ineffective use of his troops tied up the back up forces for Tarawa.

Marine-written revisionist history, except for the part about the A-bombs and the attempted coup.

 

[regent]

There is no way that we would have defeated the Japanese by 1945 if we did not Island hop. Hell it took Mac Aurthur till late 44 to take the Philippines back.

We needed a base close enough to bomb Japan from and that was Tinian next to Saipan.

We did not have the modern equipment, doctrine or technology to go straight to Tinian and Saipan.

Further the naval Battles those island campaign caused gutted the Japanese Naval, Naval Air and Airforce. Another needed ingredient.

Some of you need to actually read the history of the Pacific War. Every Island we took was needed as a chain to allow us to take Tinian and Saipan. After that they were needed to protect the Bombers or in the case of Okinawa, give us a base close enough to invade Japan.

Even after 2 Atomic Bombs, the gutting of their industry, the inability to feed their people, the inability to provide fuel for winter fires, the Japanese Army REFUSED to surrender.

The ONLY reason Japan surrendered is that after the second Atomic Bomb the Emperor demanded a surrender. Even at that, the order from what they considered a "living God" the Army attempted a Coup to prevent the Emperor from surrendering.

And do not even start on the bullshit claim that the bombs were not needed. I have SOURCE documents to back up what I just said.

As for the Army in the Pacific, they were timid and half hearted up until Okinawa. Hell Mac Aurthur used the Australians for the tough jobs in his drive..

One Army General was relieved of Command at Makin ( Tarawa) for refusing to advance on an island abandoned by the Japanese. His timid and ineffective use of his troops tied up the back up forces for Tarawa.

MacArthur believed the Australians were not good troops and used them as little as possible, in fact, after Australian New Guinea was taken they were no longer used in the drive to Japan. The army and Marine Corps fought differently, as hated as MacArthur was his casualty rates were low and he did, perhaps because he had the room, avoid taking islands like Iwo and Tarawa. I think even Howlin Mad suggested Tarawa was an error. And the Palaus a total waste.