Jesus on Marriage...

[koshergrl]

Wow, is it a full moon? It must be.

 

[BluePhantom]

Let me give you a perfect example of how completely distorted the messages have become. Take Genesis 38: 6-10 (NIV)

6 Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. 7 But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death.

8 Then Judah said to Onan, “Sleep with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to raise up offspring for your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death also.

Ok let's break it down. Judah was the father of Er and Onan and he provided a wife to his eldest son, but Er died. It's probable that Er died young, probably from an accident of some sort or early onset of disease, as his death is attributed to God's disapproval. This was very common in those days. Lacking the benefit of medical science, death that was seen as "unnatural" could only be explained according to their technology and understanding as the will of God resulting from some foul deed they did. You still see this today, in fact. I know several ultra-religious people with some form of medical disability who are convinced they got their illness because they are being punished for something wicked they have done. It's very sad.

Anyhow...so Er dies and his wife is left childless. Now this is where culture comes in. It was absolutely vital to have sons because they were required to help work the lands and even more importantly it was sons who had the responsibility of taking care of the parents when they became elderly. Without a son there would be no one to care for Er's wife when she got old. Culture demanded that it was the responsibility of Onan, as Er's brother, to provide Er's widow with a son so that she would be cared for. By tradition, however, the child would be considered the offspring of Er and his wife, not Onan's.

So Onan refused to do this and he pulled out before ejaculating so that she would not become pregnant. The verse is specific that his motivation was that he refused to allow his son to be considered his brother's son and not his and because of that he refused to see to it that his brother's widow would be cared for. His reward was an early death as well, again probably due to accident or illness, that they attributed to God's wrath for lack of medical understanding.

The lesson and the point is about making sure that your family is being taken care of. It's about selfishness and it's about allowing someone to be placed in a position where they are not going to be cared for and may in fact die as a result. It's about responsibility.

Now what is the lesson that the Church and the Bible thumpers get from it? Don't jack off and it's an affront to God to use rubbers.

WHAT?!?!? That's the most insane lesson to take from those verses that one could come up with and it totally misses the point....but that is precisely and entirely what the Church's aversion to contraception is based on. It's complete madness.

 

[koshergrl]

The sexual deviants speak.

Obviously, sexual deviancy makes them experts on the bible.

 

[Newby]

I'd rather have sunshine and roses than the continuous judging you usually dish out.

Love is what Jesus is about. Try it.

Except I don't judge. Why do you constantly have to use dishonesty to try to make a 'point'? Or is it your age, and you just don't remember any prior conversations that you have with people? This is why I rarely ever respond to any posts you make, you're one of the most dishonest people on this board.

Jesus was about more than love, he spoke about much, much more than that, but I understand that you only know how to parrot what you see others say, and you haven't really studied or understood that on your own, for yourself. You grasp onto anything or anyone that supports your opinion, and you use dishonesty against anyone that doesn't.

You judge all the time, Newby. You judge liberals, poor people, gays, non-christians. You raise yourself and those who think like you to superior status all the time.

Jeus was about love. His primary message was to love God and love others as ourselves.

The Beatitudes reflect his teaching well.

Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

No, Sky, I just don't accept excuses, especially lame ones. And you can't point to one post where I've judged you or anyone else for being homosexual, we've talked at great length in the past about this. You just choose to forget apparently.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Except I don't judge. Why do you constantly have to use dishonesty to try to make a 'point'? Or is it your age, and you just don't remember any prior conversations that you have with people? This is why I rarely ever respond to any posts you make, you're one of the most dishonest people on this board.

Jesus was about more than love, he spoke about much, much more than that, but I understand that you only know how to parrot what you see others say, and you haven't really studied or understood that on your own, for yourself. You grasp onto anything or anyone that supports your opinion, and you use dishonesty against anyone that doesn't.

You judge all the time, Newby. You judge liberals, poor people, gays, non-christians. You raise yourself and those who think like you to superior status all the time.

Jeus was about love. His primary message was to love God and love others as ourselves.

The Beatitudes reflect his teaching well.

Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

No, Sky, I just don't accept excuses, especially lame ones. And you can't point to one post where I've judged you or anyone else for being homosexual, we've talked at great length in the past about this. You just choose to forget apparently.

What does "blessed are the merciful" mean, Newby? What is mercy to you?

If someone is poor because they are mentally ill and have a substance abuse disorder is that an "excuse"? You forget my work. I have a lot of experience with people who are dual diagnosis, and with people who have domestic violence in their families. Did you know some homeless families are battered women and kids on the run?

Would you judge them?

 

[Newby]

Let me give you a perfect example of how completely distorted the messages have become. Take Genesis 38: 6-10 (NIV)

6 Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. 7 But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death.

8 Then Judah said to Onan, “Sleep with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to raise up offspring for your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death also.

Ok let's break it down. Judah was the father of Er and Onan and he provided a wife to his eldest son, but Er died. It's probable that Er died young, probably from an accident of some sort or early onset of disease, as his death is attributed to God's disapproval. This was very common in those days. Lacking the benefit of medical science, death that was seen as "unnatural" could only be explained according to their technology and understanding as the will of God resulting from some foul deed they did. You still see this today, in fact. I know several ultra-religious people with some form of medical disability who are convinced they got their illness because they are being punished for something wicked they have done. It's very sad.

Anyhow...so Er dies and his wife is left childless. Now this is where culture comes in. It was absolutely vital to have sons because they were required to help work the lands and even more importantly it was sons who had the responsibility of taking care of the parents when they became elderly. Without a son there would be no one to care for Er's wife when she got old. Culture demanded that it was the responsibility of Onan, as Er's brother, to provide Er's widow with a son so that she would be cared for. By tradition, however, the child would be considered the offspring of Er and his wife, not Onan's.

So Onan refused to do this and he pulled out before ejaculating so that she would not become pregnant. The verse is specific that his motivation was that he refused to allow his son to be considered his brother's son and not his and because of that he refused to see to it that his brother's widow would be cared for. His reward was an early death as well, again probably due to accident or illness, that they attributed to God's wrath for lack of medical understanding.

The lesson and the point is about making sure that your family is being taken care of. It's about selfishness and it's about allowing someone to be placed in a position where they are not going to be cared for and may in fact die as a result. It's about responsibility.

Now what is the lesson that the Church and the Bible thumpers get from it? Don't jack off and it's an affront to God to use rubbers.

WHAT?!?!? That's the most insane lesson to take from those verses that one could come up with and it totally misses the point....but that is precisely and entirely what the Church's aversion to contraception is based on. It's complete madness.

Which church tried to teach you that?

 

[Sky Dancer]

Let me give you a perfect example of how completely distorted the messages have become. Take Genesis 38: 6-10 (NIV)

6 Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. 7 But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death.

8 Then Judah said to Onan, “Sleep with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to raise up offspring for your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death also.

Ok let's break it down. Judah was the father of Er and Onan and he provided a wife to his eldest son, but Er died. It's probable that Er died young, probably from an accident of some sort or early onset of disease, as his death is attributed to God's disapproval. This was very common in those days. Lacking the benefit of medical science, death that was seen as "unnatural" could only be explained according to their technology and understanding as the will of God resulting from some foul deed they did. You still see this today, in fact. I know several ultra-religious people with some form of medical disability who are convinced they got their illness because they are being punished for something wicked they have done. It's very sad.

Anyhow...so Er dies and his wife is left childless. Now this is where culture comes in. It was absolutely vital to have sons because they were required to help work the lands and even more importantly it was sons who had the responsibility of taking care of the parents when they became elderly. Without a son there would be no one to care for Er's wife when she got old. Culture demanded that it was the responsibility of Onan, as Er's brother, to provide Er's widow with a son so that she would be cared for. By tradition, however, the child would be considered the offspring of Er and his wife, not Onan's.

So Onan refused to do this and he pulled out before ejaculating so that she would not become pregnant. The verse is specific that his motivation was that he refused to allow his son to be considered his brother's son and not his and because of that he refused to see to it that his brother's widow would be cared for. His reward was an early death as well, again probably due to accident or illness, that they attributed to God's wrath for lack of medical understanding.

The lesson and the point is about making sure that your family is being taken care of. It's about selfishness and it's about allowing someone to be placed in a position where they are not going to be cared for and may in fact die as a result. It's about responsibility.

Now what is the lesson that the Church and the Bible thumpers get from it? Don't jack off and it's an affront to God to use rubbers.

WHAT?!?!? That's the most insane lesson to take from those verses that one could come up with and it totally misses the point....but that is precisely and entirely what the Church's aversion to contraception is based on. It's complete madness.

Which church tried to teach you that?

The RCC is obsessed with masturbation as a sin.

 

[Ravi]

Let me give you a perfect example of how completely distorted the messages have become. Take Genesis 38: 6-10 (NIV)

6 Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. 7 But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death.

8 Then Judah said to Onan, “Sleep with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to raise up offspring for your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death also.

Ok let's break it down. Judah was the father of Er and Onan and he provided a wife to his eldest son, but Er died. It's probable that Er died young, probably from an accident of some sort or early onset of disease, as his death is attributed to God's disapproval. This was very common in those days. Lacking the benefit of medical science, death that was seen as "unnatural" could only be explained according to their technology and understanding as the will of God resulting from some foul deed they did. You still see this today, in fact. I know several ultra-religious people with some form of medical disability who are convinced they got their illness because they are being punished for something wicked they have done. It's very sad.

Anyhow...so Er dies and his wife is left childless. Now this is where culture comes in. It was absolutely vital to have sons because they were required to help work the lands and even more importantly it was sons who had the responsibility of taking care of the parents when they became elderly. Without a son there would be no one to care for Er's wife when she got old. Culture demanded that it was the responsibility of Onan, as Er's brother, to provide Er's widow with a son so that she would be cared for. By tradition, however, the child would be considered the offspring of Er and his wife, not Onan's.

So Onan refused to do this and he pulled out before ejaculating so that she would not become pregnant. The verse is specific that his motivation was that he refused to allow his son to be considered his brother's son and not his and because of that he refused to see to it that his brother's widow would be cared for. His reward was an early death as well, again probably due to accident or illness, that they attributed to God's wrath for lack of medical understanding.

The lesson and the point is about making sure that your family is being taken care of. It's about selfishness and it's about allowing someone to be placed in a position where they are not going to be cared for and may in fact die as a result. It's about responsibility.

Now what is the lesson that the Church and the Bible thumpers get from it? Don't jack off and it's an affront to God to use rubbers.

WHAT?!?!? That's the most insane lesson to take from those verses that one could come up with and it totally misses the point....but that is precisely and entirely what the Church's aversion to contraception is based on. It's complete madness.

OMG! So that's why "pulling out" is a sin to Catholics.

 

[BluePhantom]

So it's all sunshine and roses, huh? No consequences for any behavior, just love for everyone? You study one of the most complex books known to human kind, and that's your take away?

Honestly.....yeah it's pretty much that simple. There are a lot of things that talk about bad shit happening to you in life as a result of shitty things you might do but it's pretty rare that the Bible talks about punishment from God and the places where it does, it's pretty easy to see how technology at the times would contribute to that point of view. I made reference to it in may last post when I discussed the death of Er. They had no idea why he died so they just chalked it up to God and in those days that was pretty common across any religion. If there was a famine it was because the gods were displeased because of something the people had done. If someone got sick it was because he had offended a god or the gods.

But yes....when you take it as a whole there are no references to concepts like hell or eternal torment as punishment, etc. After a lifetime of study, I have generally concluded that God doesn't give a damn what we do. He has given us suggestions regarding how to live a life that is closer with Him and how to find spiritual unity with Him, but if we choose not do go that way I generally feel His attitude is "Oh you don't want to do that? Oh ok, well go do whatever you want then and I hope it works out for you." Much like a parent to an adult child, we can advise the child according to our experience but if they choose a different path we don't say "well fuck you then. I am going to destroy you.", we say "well....ok....I think you are making a mistake, but good luck. I hope it works out." At least most parents are like that.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Let me give you a perfect example of how completely distorted the messages have become. Take Genesis 38: 6-10 (NIV)

6 Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. 7 But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death.

8 Then Judah said to Onan, “Sleep with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to raise up offspring for your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death also.

Ok let's break it down. Judah was the father of Er and Onan and he provided a wife to his eldest son, but Er died. It's probable that Er died young, probably from an accident of some sort or early onset of disease, as his death is attributed to God's disapproval. This was very common in those days. Lacking the benefit of medical science, death that was seen as "unnatural" could only be explained according to their technology and understanding as the will of God resulting from some foul deed they did. You still see this today, in fact. I know several ultra-religious people with some form of medical disability who are convinced they got their illness because they are being punished for something wicked they have done. It's very sad.

Anyhow...so Er dies and his wife is left childless. Now this is where culture comes in. It was absolutely vital to have sons because they were required to help work the lands and even more importantly it was sons who had the responsibility of taking care of the parents when they became elderly. Without a son there would be no one to care for Er's wife when she got old. Culture demanded that it was the responsibility of Onan, as Er's brother, to provide Er's widow with a son so that she would be cared for. By tradition, however, the child would be considered the offspring of Er and his wife, not Onan's.

So Onan refused to do this and he pulled out before ejaculating so that she would not become pregnant. The verse is specific that his motivation was that he refused to allow his son to be considered his brother's son and not his and because of that he refused to see to it that his brother's widow would be cared for. His reward was an early death as well, again probably due to accident or illness, that they attributed to God's wrath for lack of medical understanding.

The lesson and the point is about making sure that your family is being taken care of. It's about selfishness and it's about allowing someone to be placed in a position where they are not going to be cared for and may in fact die as a result. It's about responsibility.

Now what is the lesson that the Church and the Bible thumpers get from it? Don't jack off and it's an affront to God to use rubbers.

WHAT?!?!? That's the most insane lesson to take from those verses that one could come up with and it totally misses the point....but that is precisely and entirely what the Church's aversion to contraception is based on. It's complete madness.

OMG! So that's why "pulling out" is a sin to Catholics.

Don't you know sperm are people too?

 

[BluePhantom]

Let me give you a perfect example of how completely distorted the messages have become. Take Genesis 38: 6-10 (NIV)

6 Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. 7 But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death.

8 Then Judah said to Onan, “Sleep with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to raise up offspring for your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death also.

Ok let's break it down. Judah was the father of Er and Onan and he provided a wife to his eldest son, but Er died. It's probable that Er died young, probably from an accident of some sort or early onset of disease, as his death is attributed to God's disapproval. This was very common in those days. Lacking the benefit of medical science, death that was seen as "unnatural" could only be explained according to their technology and understanding as the will of God resulting from some foul deed they did. You still see this today, in fact. I know several ultra-religious people with some form of medical disability who are convinced they got their illness because they are being punished for something wicked they have done. It's very sad.

Anyhow...so Er dies and his wife is left childless. Now this is where culture comes in. It was absolutely vital to have sons because they were required to help work the lands and even more importantly it was sons who had the responsibility of taking care of the parents when they became elderly. Without a son there would be no one to care for Er's wife when she got old. Culture demanded that it was the responsibility of Onan, as Er's brother, to provide Er's widow with a son so that she would be cared for. By tradition, however, the child would be considered the offspring of Er and his wife, not Onan's.

So Onan refused to do this and he pulled out before ejaculating so that she would not become pregnant. The verse is specific that his motivation was that he refused to allow his son to be considered his brother's son and not his and because of that he refused to see to it that his brother's widow would be cared for. His reward was an early death as well, again probably due to accident or illness, that they attributed to God's wrath for lack of medical understanding.

The lesson and the point is about making sure that your family is being taken care of. It's about selfishness and it's about allowing someone to be placed in a position where they are not going to be cared for and may in fact die as a result. It's about responsibility.

Now what is the lesson that the Church and the Bible thumpers get from it? Don't jack off and it's an affront to God to use rubbers.

WHAT?!?!? That's the most insane lesson to take from those verses that one could come up with and it totally misses the point....but that is precisely and entirely what the Church's aversion to contraception is based on. It's complete madness.

OMG! So that's why "pulling out" is a sin to Catholics.

Yep. That's the only Biblical reference to it. It's based entirely on that section. Insane, huh?

 

[Newby]

You judge all the time, Newby. You judge liberals, poor people, gays, non-christians. You raise yourself and those who think like you to superior status all the time.

Jeus was about love. His primary message was to love God and love others as ourselves.

The Beatitudes reflect his teaching well.

Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

No, Sky, I just don't accept excuses, especially lame ones. And you can't point to one post where I've judged you or anyone else for being homosexual, we've talked at great length in the past about this. You just choose to forget apparently.

What does "blessed are the merciful" mean, Newby? What is mercy to you?

Well, you might have a point if anyone was being 'punished' for their sins by other human kind, and in this case, me personally. Criminals are punished for the crimes they commit against society. I, personally, have never punished anyone other than my own children when they misbehaved. You are certainly free to believe that there will be no punishment in the after life for sins you commit here, and I'm free to believe that there's a good chance that you (the general 'you', not the personal 'you', cause I know that's how you'll take it if I don't say otherwise) will be judged for sins that you don't repent or turn away from. I'm also free to defend that belief, and defending it doesn't mean that I don't have mercy or that I'm personally condemning anyone. No human being has that power, when speaking in terms of religion, only God does.

 

[Sky Dancer]

No, Sky, I just don't accept excuses, especially lame ones. And you can't point to one post where I've judged you or anyone else for being homosexual, we've talked at great length in the past about this. You just choose to forget apparently.

What does "blessed are the merciful" mean, Newby? What is mercy to you?

Well, you might have a point if anyone was being 'punished' for their sins by other human kind, and in this case, me personally. Criminals are punished for the crimes they commit against society. I, personally, have never punished anyone other than my own children when they misbehaved. You are certainly free to believe that there will be no punishment in the after life for sins you commit here, and I'm free to believe that there's a good chance that you (the general 'you', not the personal 'you', cause I know that's how you'll take it if I don't say otherwise) will be judged for sins that you don't repent or turn away from. I'm also free to defend that belief, and defending it doesn't mean that I don't have mercy or that I'm personally condemning anyone. No human being has that power, when speaking in terms of religion, only God does.

You are free to believe whatever you choose to believe. I am free to practice my views as well.

You didn't really answer the question about what is mercy?

Please remember, you are talking to someone who doesn't believe in God, at least, not the God you believe in, or sin.

Punishment is very Judeo Christian. Judgement is Judeo Christian. Sin is Judeo Christian.

Tell me more about what mercy means to you. Please.

 

[Ravi]

Let me give you a perfect example of how completely distorted the messages have become. Take Genesis 38: 6-10 (NIV)

6 Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. 7 But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death.

8 Then Judah said to Onan, “Sleep with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to raise up offspring for your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death also.

Ok let's break it down. Judah was the father of Er and Onan and he provided a wife to his eldest son, but Er died. It's probable that Er died young, probably from an accident of some sort or early onset of disease, as his death is attributed to God's disapproval. This was very common in those days. Lacking the benefit of medical science, death that was seen as "unnatural" could only be explained according to their technology and understanding as the will of God resulting from some foul deed they did. You still see this today, in fact. I know several ultra-religious people with some form of medical disability who are convinced they got their illness because they are being punished for something wicked they have done. It's very sad.

Anyhow...so Er dies and his wife is left childless. Now this is where culture comes in. It was absolutely vital to have sons because they were required to help work the lands and even more importantly it was sons who had the responsibility of taking care of the parents when they became elderly. Without a son there would be no one to care for Er's wife when she got old. Culture demanded that it was the responsibility of Onan, as Er's brother, to provide Er's widow with a son so that she would be cared for. By tradition, however, the child would be considered the offspring of Er and his wife, not Onan's.

So Onan refused to do this and he pulled out before ejaculating so that she would not become pregnant. The verse is specific that his motivation was that he refused to allow his son to be considered his brother's son and not his and because of that he refused to see to it that his brother's widow would be cared for. His reward was an early death as well, again probably due to accident or illness, that they attributed to God's wrath for lack of medical understanding.

The lesson and the point is about making sure that your family is being taken care of. It's about selfishness and it's about allowing someone to be placed in a position where they are not going to be cared for and may in fact die as a result. It's about responsibility.

Now what is the lesson that the Church and the Bible thumpers get from it? Don't jack off and it's an affront to God to use rubbers.

WHAT?!?!? That's the most insane lesson to take from those verses that one could come up with and it totally misses the point....but that is precisely and entirely what the Church's aversion to contraception is based on. It's complete madness.

Which church tried to teach you that?

connect the dots:

from Websters:

Biographical Note for ONANISM
Onan, Biblical character. In the Book of Genesis Onan was commanded by his father to impregnate the widow of his slain brother and to raise the offspring of the union. In order to avoid raising descendants for his late brother, however, Onan engaged in coitus interruptus.

 

[Newby]

You judge all the time, Newby. You judge liberals, poor people, gays, non-christians. You raise yourself and those who think like you to superior status all the time.

Jeus was about love. His primary message was to love God and love others as ourselves.

The Beatitudes reflect his teaching well.

Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

No, Sky, I just don't accept excuses, especially lame ones. And you can't point to one post where I've judged you or anyone else for being homosexual, we've talked at great length in the past about this. You just choose to forget apparently.

What does "blessed are the merciful" mean, Newby? What is mercy to you?

If someone is poor because they are mentally ill and have a substance abuse disorder is that an "excuse"? You forget my work. I have a lot of experience with people who are dual diagnosis, and with people who have domestic violence in their families. Did you know some homeless families are battered women and kids on the run?

Would you judge them?

You know, Sky, I had a niece that was brutally murdered by 6 people two years ago. Those people were the exact type that you describe, mental issues, drugs, bad family life I'm sure. A pack of losers who held no jobs or made any productive contribution to the society they lived in. Are you telling me that they didn't know right from wrong when they tied her up and beat her and forced her to eat her own feces and then drink her own urine, along with other harsh chemicals, raped her, all over a period of two days, and then finally the cut her throat. She was in her 20's and had a mental deficiency all of her life, probably had the mental capacity of a 6 year old, so she didn't recoginze the evil these people projected when they 'befriended' her in order to get her trust and abuse her.

Tell me what mercy they should receive from myself, the rest of her family, or God? Ask me again about how I judge people.

 

[BluePhantom]

Let me give you a perfect example of how completely distorted the messages have become. Take Genesis 38: 6-10 (NIV)

6 Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. 7 But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death.

8 Then Judah said to Onan, “Sleep with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to raise up offspring for your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death also.

Ok let's break it down. Judah was the father of Er and Onan and he provided a wife to his eldest son, but Er died. It's probable that Er died young, probably from an accident of some sort or early onset of disease, as his death is attributed to God's disapproval. This was very common in those days. Lacking the benefit of medical science, death that was seen as "unnatural" could only be explained according to their technology and understanding as the will of God resulting from some foul deed they did. You still see this today, in fact. I know several ultra-religious people with some form of medical disability who are convinced they got their illness because they are being punished for something wicked they have done. It's very sad.

Anyhow...so Er dies and his wife is left childless. Now this is where culture comes in. It was absolutely vital to have sons because they were required to help work the lands and even more importantly it was sons who had the responsibility of taking care of the parents when they became elderly. Without a son there would be no one to care for Er's wife when she got old. Culture demanded that it was the responsibility of Onan, as Er's brother, to provide Er's widow with a son so that she would be cared for. By tradition, however, the child would be considered the offspring of Er and his wife, not Onan's.

So Onan refused to do this and he pulled out before ejaculating so that she would not become pregnant. The verse is specific that his motivation was that he refused to allow his son to be considered his brother's son and not his and because of that he refused to see to it that his brother's widow would be cared for. His reward was an early death as well, again probably due to accident or illness, that they attributed to God's wrath for lack of medical understanding.

The lesson and the point is about making sure that your family is being taken care of. It's about selfishness and it's about allowing someone to be placed in a position where they are not going to be cared for and may in fact die as a result. It's about responsibility.

Now what is the lesson that the Church and the Bible thumpers get from it? Don't jack off and it's an affront to God to use rubbers.

WHAT?!?!? That's the most insane lesson to take from those verses that one could come up with and it totally misses the point....but that is precisely and entirely what the Church's aversion to contraception is based on. It's complete madness.

Which church tried to teach you that?

LOTS of them. Here's two examples.

However, we also discover references to any violation of the unitive-procreative dimensions of marital love and to the divine consequences which followed. In Genesis, we find the story of Onan, the second son of Judah, who married Tamar, the widow of his older brother Er. (The Levirate law of Judaism prescribed that if the oldest brother died, the next oldest, single brother would marry his widow to preserve the family line.) The Bible reads, "Onan, however, knew that the descendants would not be counted as his; so whenever he had relations with his brother's widow, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid contributing offspring for his brother. What he did greatly offended the Lord, and the Lord took his life." (Cf. Genesis 38:1ff). Here is a basic form of contraception � withdrawal, and clearly a sin in the eyes of God.

Contraceptive References in the Bible

God’s enactment of the death penalty for Onan indicates a heightened seriousness in the offense. The only additional element to Onan’s refusal to provide offspring is his choice to make the sexual act deliberately infertile by withdrawal.

What does the Bible say about contraception? | One More Soul

BTW...just so you know I was raised by a devoutly Catholic mother, an Episcopal father, my Grandfather was a Catholic priest with whom I had constant theological discussion and debate, I went to Catholic school as a child...trust me....I know what they teach and what it's based on.

 

[BluePhantom]

Well, you might have a point if anyone was being 'punished' for their sins by other human kind, and in this case, me personally. Criminals are punished for the crimes they commit against society. I, personally, have never punished anyone other than my own children when they misbehaved. You are certainly free to believe that there will be no punishment in the after life for sins you commit here, and I'm free to believe that there's a good chance that you (the general 'you', not the personal 'you', cause I know that's how you'll take it if I don't say otherwise) will be judged for sins that you don't repent or turn away from. I'm also free to defend that belief, and defending it doesn't mean that I don't have mercy or that I'm personally condemning anyone. No human being has that power, when speaking in terms of religion, only God does.

If by any statement I have made, you have drawn the conclusion that I am accusing you specifically of such acts (oppression, condemnation, etc) then you have my apologies. That was not my intent.

My point is that there is a lot of such things out there and they are based on some very problematic evidence and justified according to some really serious misunderstandings of ancient culture and history.

 

[Newby]

Let me give you a perfect example of how completely distorted the messages have become. Take Genesis 38: 6-10 (NIV)



Ok let's break it down. Judah was the father of Er and Onan and he provided a wife to his eldest son, but Er died. It's probable that Er died young, probably from an accident of some sort or early onset of disease, as his death is attributed to God's disapproval. This was very common in those days. Lacking the benefit of medical science, death that was seen as "unnatural" could only be explained according to their technology and understanding as the will of God resulting from some foul deed they did. You still see this today, in fact. I know several ultra-religious people with some form of medical disability who are convinced they got their illness because they are being punished for something wicked they have done. It's very sad.

Anyhow...so Er dies and his wife is left childless. Now this is where culture comes in. It was absolutely vital to have sons because they were required to help work the lands and even more importantly it was sons who had the responsibility of taking care of the parents when they became elderly. Without a son there would be no one to care for Er's wife when she got old. Culture demanded that it was the responsibility of Onan, as Er's brother, to provide Er's widow with a son so that she would be cared for. By tradition, however, the child would be considered the offspring of Er and his wife, not Onan's.

So Onan refused to do this and he pulled out before ejaculating so that she would not become pregnant. The verse is specific that his motivation was that he refused to allow his son to be considered his brother's son and not his and because of that he refused to see to it that his brother's widow would be cared for. His reward was an early death as well, again probably due to accident or illness, that they attributed to God's wrath for lack of medical understanding.

The lesson and the point is about making sure that your family is being taken care of. It's about selfishness and it's about allowing someone to be placed in a position where they are not going to be cared for and may in fact die as a result. It's about responsibility.

Now what is the lesson that the Church and the Bible thumpers get from it? Don't jack off and it's an affront to God to use rubbers.

WHAT?!?!? That's the most insane lesson to take from those verses that one could come up with and it totally misses the point....but that is precisely and entirely what the Church's aversion to contraception is based on. It's complete madness.

Which church tried to teach you that?

LOTS of them. Here's two examples.

However, we also discover references to any violation of the unitive-procreative dimensions of marital love and to the divine consequences which followed. In Genesis, we find the story of Onan, the second son of Judah, who married Tamar, the widow of his older brother Er. (The Levirate law of Judaism prescribed that if the oldest brother died, the next oldest, single brother would marry his widow to preserve the family line.) The Bible reads, "Onan, however, knew that the descendants would not be counted as his; so whenever he had relations with his brother's widow, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid contributing offspring for his brother. What he did greatly offended the Lord, and the Lord took his life." (Cf. Genesis 38:1ff). Here is a basic form of contraception � withdrawal, and clearly a sin in the eyes of God.

Contraceptive References in the Bible

God’s enactment of the death penalty for Onan indicates a heightened seriousness in the offense. The only additional element to Onan’s refusal to provide offspring is his choice to make the sexual act deliberately infertile by withdrawal.

What does the Bible say about contraception? | One More Soul

BTW...just so you know I was raised by a devoutly Catholic mother, an Episcopal father, my Grandfather was a Catholic priest with whom I had constant theological discussion and debate, I went to Catholic school as a child...trust me....I know what they teach and what it's based on.

You have my sympathies... but there are many more churches out there than just Catholic ones who don't teach that meaning.

 

[BluePhantom]

OMG! So that's why "pulling out" is a sin to Catholics.

Don't you know sperm are people too?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk]Every Sperm is Sacred - YouTube[/ame]

 

[theHawk]

If God thought homosexuality was a sin, he wouldn't have created gay people. Once upon a time, the same narrow minded kind of person thought people with left handed dominance were evil. Gays are simliarly demonized. Being gay is just like being left handed with the majority of people born right handed.

So by your logic, God created pedophiles, so it cannot be a sin to rape young boys.