John Wayne, War Hero?

[Seymour Flops]

Saw this on Facebook:

Now, I have no idea if any of that is true. It's a Facebook meme. Wikipedia "corroborates" it. I hate to burst any bubbles, but Wiki likely got its information for a user who got it from that same meme. But for the purpose of this post, assume it is true. Is it really a good thing?

This is a Colonel in the Army sending an informant to secretly gather information on a five-star general. On what predicate? That MacArthur was secretly working for the enemy? Embezzling military funds? Abusing troops? Showing cowardice? No.

Because he was "suspected of ignoring the OSS."

Maybe that kind of this is why many people at the time did not consider spying to be a legitimate or ethical part of war. To easy for secret and unaccountable government agencies to go rogue. The Democrats who grew up watching "Spy Kids," in which the children had a higher "level" than the president, so the president did their bidding, may think that is cool. I don't, because I am not a child.

If the proto-type of the CIA was willing to take hostile action against a senior leader who did not show them enough respect, imagine what the fully developed intelligence organizations of the modern day could do to ordinary citizens who express ideas unacceptable to those agencies.

Actually, we don't have to imagine it. We are seeing it play out in real time.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

Not true.

 

[Polishprince]

Sounds like b.s.

The Duke didn't serve in uniform during WW2. He was born in 1907 and was already in his mid 30's when the festivities started. Further, he had to work to support his several children at the time and it would have been too much of a hardship.

However, Mr. Wayne did help in the war effort on the home front, raising the people's spirits and promoting patriotism, much like George Bailey and many other Americans.

Further, for a generation after WW2, he was a tremendous role model for young American men of my generation. Unlike the subsequent generation which adopted Ru Paul as their role model

 

[para bellum]

When I was a kid John Wayne bought me a Roy Rogers in the Canoe Club in Sitka, Alaska. My dad was a part-time bartender there.

The Duke had a converted minesweeper called the Wild Goose, and one year he made a trip to Southeast. When he came into the Canoe Club my dad (who was a big John Wayne fan) called my mom and had her pack up us kids and go meet him.

We ended up touring the boat the next day. I remember how big he was. My dad was 6'1 and the Duke stood over him.

The Wild Goose is still in Newport Beach. I ran a big sportfisher in '03-'04 from AK to Costa Rica, and I stayed at John Wayne's dock in Newport Beach before heading south. The Duke had long since passed, and the house was owned by a guy named Robert (call me RJ) Cohen. Cohen owned the Beverly Hills Four Seasons. He was in the process of building a new house, and we rented the dock for 3 months. Super nice guy, stereotypical hollywood type. Had the Errol Flynn mustache and everything.

John Wayne's house was not that large (considering the owner). Almost what they would call a "bungalow" in hollywood. RJ was tearing it down and building a giant house right to the edges of the property lines. I had a lot of fun in Newport Beach that year, cool place.

The Wild Goose was in charter service then, doing harbor tours. Not sure where it is today...

 

[Mushroom]

Now, I have no idea if any of that is true. It's a Facebook meme. Wikipedia "corroborates" it. I hate to burst any bubbles, but Wiki likely got its information for a user who got it from that same meme. But for the purpose of this post, assume it is true. Is it really a good thing?

This is a Colonel in the Army sending an informant to secretly gather information on a five-star general. On what predicate? That MacArthur was secretly working for the enemy? Embezzling military funds? Abusing troops? Showing cowardice? No.

OK, so Mac is a traitor, and John Wayne was a super-secret spy?

Either this is a script for a really bad WWII version of "Once Upon A Time in Hollywood"? Where instead of a fantasy recreation of the Tate murders, it is a fantasy version of WWII?

 

[Seymour Flops]

OK, so Mac is a traitor, and John Wayne was a super-secret spy?

Either this is a script for a really bad WWII version of "Once Upon A Time in Hollywood"? Where instead of a fantasy recreation of the Tate murders, it is a fantasy version of WWII?

Mac was a traitor in the same sense that Trump is a traitor. Both put America first and both were spied on for not showing respect for intelligence agencies.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Mac was a blowhard full of himself he did not take advice and ignored intel all the time he treated our allies like shit as well. But he was not a traitor.

 

[Synthaholic]

John Wayne was a POS.

 

[Mushroom]

Mac was a blowhard full of himself he did not take advice and ignored intel all the time he treated our allies like shit as well. But he was not a traitor.

Mac was simply a relic, of a time long past and sent out to pasture.

His father was a hero of the Civil War, and he was raised on such on literal "Old West" forts built to protect settlers form Indian raids. From all accounts I have read of Arthur, he was also a flamboyant General, and Douglas even served as his aid for several years. And he started his career as an Engineer, moving to logistics before WWI. At that point he changed his branch to Infantry, where it would remain for the rest of his career.

However, he was no Bradley, Ike, or Patton. His technique was from an earlier era, like his dad on Seminary Ridge, or the trenches of WWI. Simply throw everything you got at the enemy, and hit them over and over again until one side or the other folds. Which ironically was effective against the Japanese, as they fought similarly. And when fighting an enemy that will die rather then retreat, he was the perfect one to use against them.

And yes, he was a megalomaniac. And very much believed that nobody from any other country could teach him anything about war. We are lucky he was in the Pacific, because if he had been in the European Theater he likely would have gotten most of those under him slaughtered. But in the island hopping campaign (which he did not originate - that was actually USMC Major Earl Ellis in 1921) he was a good choice. And once an island was secure the forces could be pulled out, rest and refit before being thrown into the grinder again. A very different combat than the slow push through Italy, France, and Germany.

Germany was too mobile for the kind of fighting Mac did, and isolated islands and the units involved in the island campaign being rotated allowed them time away from the combat. Ironically, he was almost using cavalry tactics by jumping them all over the map, but with infantry. And ships instead of horses. But take them back around 80 years, and he was almost operating like his forces were dragoons.

I admit, my opinion of Mac is not all that high, but he was the right general for that campaign. And he was not a traitor. But he was pigheaded, and now a favorite target of some who see him as something he is not.

 

[DudleySmith]

In other news, I'm still learning new stuff about Eddie Albert, a real hero. Turns out he was also a high wire performer, and touring Mexico as a circus performer and secretly took pictures of German U-boats docking in Mexico for Naval Intelligence just prior to WW II. I knew about his actions during the war and his rescue efforts, but didn't know this stuff until earlier today. His real life was better than a John Wayne movie 10 times over.

 

[DudleySmith]

Mac was simply a relic, of a time long past and sent out to pasture.

His father was a hero of the Civil War, and he was raised on such on literal "Old West" forts built to protect settlers form Indian raids. From all accounts I have read of Arthur, he was also a flamboyant General, and Douglas even served as his aid for several years. And he started his career as an Engineer, moving to logistics before WWI. At that point he changed his branch to Infantry, where it would remain for the rest of his career.

However, he was no Bradley, Ike, or Patton. His technique was from an earlier era, like his dad on Seminary Ridge, or the trenches of WWI. Simply throw everything you got at the enemy, and hit them over and over again until one side or the other folds. Which ironically was effective against the Japanese, as they fought similarly. And when fighting an enemy that will die rather then retreat, he was the perfect one to use against them.

And yes, he was a megalomaniac. And very much believed that nobody from any other country could teach him anything about war. We are lucky he was in the Pacific, because if he had been in the European Theater he likely would have gotten most of those under him slaughtered. But in the island hopping campaign (which he did not originate - that was actually USMC Major Earl Ellis in 1921) he was a good choice. And once an island was secure the forces could be pulled out, rest and refit before being thrown into the grinder again. A very different combat than the slow push through Italy, France, and Germany.

Germany was too mobile for the kind of fighting Mac did, and isolated islands and the units involved in the island campaign being rotated allowed them time away from the combat. Ironically, he was almost using cavalry tactics by jumping them all over the map, but with infantry. And ships instead of horses. But take them back around 80 years, and he was almost operating like his forces were dragoons.

I admit, my opinion of Mac is not all that high, but he was the right general for that campaign. And he was not a traitor. But he was pigheaded, and now a favorite target of some who see him as something he is not.

He did listen to smarter men than himself on occasion, even if he stabbed them in the back later. My father hated him, as did one of my uncles who served in the Pacific. He did a fair job in administrating Japan after the war as well. He gets credit in some histories for his choosing Inchon for a landing, but even that is false, as Marines had already been there, done that in the 19th Century, though on a much smaller scale, scouting mostly, but the Navy knew the waters from their 1871 missions there, and he would have known that bit of history when he made the choice. He might have done better in Korea if his divisions hadn't been so badly under-manned and unsupplied when that war broke out.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

He did listen to smarter men than himself on occasion, even if he stabbed them in the back later. My father hated him, as did one of my uncles who served in the Pacific. He did a fair job in administrating Japan after the war as well. He gets credit in some histories for his choosing Inchon for a landing, but even that is false, as Marines had already been there, done that in the 19th Century, though on a much smaller scale, scouting mostly, but the Navy knew the waters from their 1871 missions there, and he would have known that bit of history when he made the choice. He might have done better in Korea if his divisions hadn't been so badly under-manned and unsupplied when that war broke out.

He would have done better in Korea if he hadn't proclaimed over and over, we were going to invade China.

 

[DudleySmith]

He would have done better in Korea if he hadn't proclaimed over and over, we were going to invade China.

Bad politics to run around saying stuff in public the CiC didn't approve of. Truman was right to sack him, but we should have at least shelled and bombed them on their own side, but that needed UN approval; it would have been better than getting pushed all the way back. We knew they were going to invade. There was also a fairly narrow choke point we might have been able to fortify not that far south of the border as well.

Kissinger wrote in a recent book that we should have done landings on both sides of that choke point, but I don't think he had much of grasp on what our actual force capabilities there were at the time and what was involved re the Korean coastlines and tides.

 

[whitehall]

It's common knowledge that the Duke avoided military service.

 

[Mushroom]

In other news, I'm still learning new stuff about Eddie Albert, a real hero. Turns out he was also a high wire performer, and touring Mexico as a circus performer and secretly took pictures of German U-boats docking in Mexico for Naval Intelligence just prior to WW II. I knew about his actions during the war and his rescue efforts, but didn't know this stuff until earlier today. His real life was better than a John Wayne movie 10 times over.

I almost added him in here, as he actually was an actor, and a spy. He also earned the Bronze Star with Combat V for saving a lot of Marines on Tarawa.

I first became aware of that about 15 years ago when I saw a documentary on Tarawa, and they interviewed several who had been there. And one was simply described as "Ed Albert, Navy". And in the interview they mentioned his saving them, but he did not talk about it at all. In fact, he only discussed it very late in his life.

 

[Mushroom]

He might have done better in Korea if his divisions hadn't been so badly under-manned and unsupplied when that war broke out.

To be fair, all that was in Korea at the time was a small cadre that was mostly involved in training the South Korean Army. Like those in Vietnam in the early days, none of them ever expected to be fighting.

There were only around 7,000 there in 1950 when the North Koreans attacked, down from around 40,000 in 1946. Both the Soviet Union and the US drew down their forces drastically in 1947 and 1948, and President Truman planned on reducing it even further in 1950. And having all US forces out other than a small advisory group of under 1,000 by 1952.

And all there was in Japan were occupation forces. Largely administrators and logistics people helping to put that country back together. Just like the Spanish Inquisition, nobody expected the North Koreans to come storming across the border like they did. It was not until after the Korean War that we had a large military presence in that country. And roughly a Division of Marines on Okinawa, largely staged to respond to something like that.

Interestingly enough, when I was on Okinawa in 1988 I picked up the book "A Rumor of War" by Philip Caputo. A true story about his time in the Marines from 1964-1967. And his unit was the first sent to Vietnam during the buildup in 1965, and he talked about being on the exact same base I was reading his story at 23 years later. But Vietnam was similar, only a small training cadre prior to 1965. However, by then they had a lot of people in the region to quickly move where needed.

 

[whitehall]

Handsome Marine Gunnery Sgt. John "Manila John" Basilone was awarded the Medal of Honor on Guadalcanal and was selected to appear in Bond Drives with Hollywood stars. He could have turned his fame into a movie career but he chose to go back with his guys and was killed in action on Iwo Jima.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

It's common knowledge that the Duke avoided military service.

Why do you lie? Duke was too old, married, and had too many kids to serve. He was also under contract to a movie studio, so he could not volunteer without breaching his contract. He often said his biggest regret in life was not serving in the military. He applied for the Naval Academy, but was not selected. so he attended USC on a football scholarship.

He never "avoided" military service.

 

[Mushroom]

Handsome Marine Gunnery Sgt. John "Manila John" Basilone was awarded the Medal of Honor on Guadalcanal and was selected to appear in Bond Drives with Hollywood stars. He could have turned his fame into a movie career but he chose to go back with his guys and was killed in action on Iwo Jima.

That was common in that era. Most who got that medal and survived and were able to returned to battle. Only those who were so injured they could not be sent back in were spared that. That is why there are two Marines that earned the award twice (in total 14 earned the award for two different actions).

And do not forget, he joined the Marines specifically to fight the Japanese. He had served in the Army from 1934 to 1940. He served in the Philippines, where he got the nickname "Manilla Joe" as he was the all services boxing champion while in the Philippines. In 1940 he did not even have to join, but purposefully enlisted in the Marines as he thought they would get him into the fight the soonest. He spent almost a year on tour, then reenlisted with the promise that he could return to the war. He hated the bond tour, and wanted nothing but to return to combat.

 

[whitehall]

Why do you lie? Duke was too old, married, and had too many kids to serve. He was also under contract to a movie studio, so he could not volunteer without breaching his contract. He often said his biggest regret in life was not serving in the military. He applied for the Naval Academy, but was not selected. so he attended USC on a football scholarship.

He never "avoided" military service.

"Biggest regrets" aside, I guess the Duke was about 33. He had four kids and his marriage was in trouble and ended in 1944. He could have served but he avoided service.