Judaism 101

[cnelsen]

Matthew 6:6...
No Churches according to Matthew.

This is a fine example of taking a button and using it to knit a sweater that doesn't even match the button!

Reading the whole of Matthew we learn there is a time for public prayer, a time for private prayer, a time for group prayer/worship, a time for personal prayer/worship. Personal prayer time should take place in a closet, not out in public. Community prayer takes place in a large area or out in the open where there is room for all. Both types of prayer/worship are encouraged--it is not an either/or proposition.

Show where the Gospels advocate public prayer.

On the cross, when Jesus looked to Heaven and said My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

 

[Meriweather]

Paul was addressing his audience face to face; there was no room for foreshadowing.

You're looking at this from a 21st century perspective.

Paul wrote letters. That's not to say he didn't speak with his audience face-to-face, but all we have of Paul to go on are the letters he wrote to the Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, and Timothy. We expect that what Paul said to them face-to-face matches what he wrote to them. There is no indication at all that Paul spoke to them about Matthew's Gospel. In the first place, Many of Paul's letters were written before Matthew wrote his Gospel. Paul does not reference Matthew.

 

[Meriweather]

Prophecy as prediction is purely a Christian concept.
There are no predictions in TJS.
There is God communicating to avoid punishment.

It is believed by many scholars that Paul wrote the Gospels According to...

As I explained, Catholics teach that prophecy is about speaking for God, not about prediction. I don't know where you got the idea that all Christians see it as prediction, when only a very small minority do.

You should probably check other scholars. Not only are the writing styles different, Matthew's Gospel is thought to have been written between 80-100 A.D. Unless you believe Paul also rose from the dead, he couldn't have written the Gospel of Matthew. Matthew was clearly a Gentile (most believe), whereas Paul was both a Jew and a Roman citizen.

Calling Matthew, "Paul" or Paul "Matthew" would be like someone calling Jonah "Isaiah" or Isaiah "Jonah."

 

[Indeependent]

Matthew 6:6...
No Churches according to Matthew.

This is a fine example of taking a button and using it to knit a sweater that doesn't even match the button!

Reading the whole of Matthew we learn there is a time for public prayer, a time for private prayer, a time for group prayer/worship, a time for personal prayer/worship. Personal prayer time should take place in a closet, not out in public. Community prayer takes place in a large area or out in the open where there is room for all. Both types of prayer/worship are encouraged--it is not an either/or proposition.

Show where the Gospels advocate public prayer.

On the cross, when Jesus looked to Heaven and said My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

If you believe God as human screamed out to God as God...whatever.
Then you mock Jews.

 

[Meriweather]

Let's be honest...
The event was predicted and happened as predicted and Paul, in his Gospel According to Matthew, shows what a dunce he is.
No Jew living at the time of the Gospels could take them seriously.

If you wish truth and honesty, you will first have to accept the fact that Paul and Matthew were two very different people. Paul was dead by the time Matthew's Gospel was written.

 

[Indeependent]

Prophecy as prediction is purely a Christian concept.
There are no predictions in TJS.
There is God communicating to avoid punishment.

It is believed by many scholars that Paul wrote the Gospels According to...

As I explained, Catholics teach that prophecy is about speaking for God, not about prediction. I don't know where you got the idea that all Christians see it as prediction, when only a very small minority do.

You should probably check other scholars. Not only are the writing styles different, Matthew's Gospel is thought to have been written between 80-100 A.D. Unless you believe Paul also rose from the dead, he couldn't have written the Gospel of Matthew. Matthew was clearly a Gentile (most believe), whereas Paul was both a Jew and a Roman citizen.

Calling Matthew, "Paul" or Paul "Matthew" would be like someone calling Jonah "Isaiah" or Isaiah "Jonah."

Do I need secular scholars to explain what I know to be nonsense?
I don't think so.
Seriously, if I was an adult in 100AD I'd be laughing my arse off.

 

[Meriweather]

Show where the Gospels advocate public prayer.

The two that immediately come to mind is Jesus looking up to heaven and saying the blessing before feeding the crowd. Jesus was also before a crowd when he asked the Father to glorify his name (John's Gospel).

Group Prayer: The Last Supper, and in the garden following that supper.

 

[Meriweather]

On the cross, when Jesus looked to Heaven and said My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Or, as many believe, Jesus was reminding people of Psalm 22, the Prayer of an Innocent Person.

The closing verses of this Psalm are especially powerful:

My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?
Why so far from my call for help,
from my cries of anguish?
My God, I call by day, but you do not answer;
by night, but I have no relief.

Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the glory of Israel.
In you our fathers trusted;
they trusted and you rescued them.
To you they cried out and they escaped;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
But I am a worm, not a man,
scorned by men, despised by the people.
All who see me mock me;
they curl their lips and jeer;
they shake their heads at me:
“He relied on the LORD—let him deliver him;
if he loves him, let him rescue him.”
10For you drew me forth from the womb,
made me safe at my mother’s breasts.
Upon you I was thrust from the womb;
since my mother bore me you are my God.
Do not stay far from me,
for trouble is near,
and there is no one to help.


Many bulls surround me;
fierce bulls of Bashan encircle me.
They open their mouths against me,
lions that rend and roar.
Like water my life drains away;
all my bones are disjointed.
My heart has become like wax,
it melts away within me.
As dry as a potsherd is my throat;
my tongue cleaves to my palate;
you lay me in the dust of death.

Dogs surround me;
a pack of evildoers closes in on me.

They have pierced my hands and my feet

I can count all my bones.

They stare at me and gloat;

they divide my garments among them;

for my clothing they cast lots.

But you, LORD, do not stay far off;

my strength, come quickly to help me.

Deliver my soul from the sword,

my life from the grip of the dog.

Save me from the lion’s mouth,

my poor life from the horns of wild bulls.


Then I will proclaim your name to my brethren;
in the assembly I will praise you:
“You who fear the LORD, give praise!
All descendants of Jacob, give honor;
show reverence, all descendants of Israel!
For he has not spurned or disdained
the misery of this poor wretch,
Did not turn away from me,
but heard me when I cried out.
I will offer praise in the great assembly;
my vows I will fulfill before those who fear him.
The poor will eat their fill;
those who seek the LORD will offer praise.
May your hearts enjoy life forever!”


All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD;
All the families of nations
will bow low before him.
For kingship belongs to the LORD,
the ruler over the nations.
All who sleep in the earth
will bow low before God;
All who have gone down into the dust
will kneel in homage.
And I will live for the LORD;
my descendants will serve you.

The generation to come will be told of the Lord,
that they may proclaim to a people yet unborn
the deliverance you have brought.

 

[Meriweather]

On the cross, when Jesus looked to Heaven and said My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

If you believe God as human screamed out to God as God...whatever.
Then you mock Jews.[/QUOTE]

Psalm 22

 

[Meriweather]

Matthew 5:21...
Where the heck did this come from?!
That quote doesn't even exist!
And the word is "murder", not "kill".

Exodus 21:12 - Whoever strikes a man a mortal blow...

 

[Indeependent]

On the cross, when Jesus looked to Heaven and said My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

If you believe God as human screamed out to God as God...whatever.
Then you mock Jews.

Psalm 22[/QUOTE]
Since when does David crying out to God prove that God cries out to God?
Do you know the history of Psalms?

 

[Indeependent]

On the cross, when Jesus looked to Heaven and said My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

If you believe God as human screamed out to God as God...whatever.
Then you mock Jews.

Psalm 22[/QUOTE]
Psalms 22 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre
The Church purposely omitted the first verse.
The first verse of every psalm identifies the composer.

 

[yiostheoy]

Paul was addressing his audience face to face; there was no room for foreshadowing.

You're looking at this from a 21st century perspective.

Paul wrote letters. That's not to say he didn't speak with his audience face-to-face, but all we have of Paul to go on are the letters he wrote to the Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, and Timothy. We expect that what Paul said to them face-to-face matches what he wrote to them. There is no indication at all that Paul spoke to them about Matthew's Gospel. In the first place, Many of Paul's letters were written before Matthew wrote his Gospel. Paul does not reference Matthew.

Paul was the first writer of all the New Testament authors.

 

[yiostheoy]

Original Christianity is NOT monotheistic.

In original Christianity there is God The Father (Theos Patyr in the original Greek), the Son of God (Yios Theoy), and the Holy Spirit (Pneuma Agia).

So the Jews could NOT have gotten monotheism from the Christians. That would have to be an anachronism.

They may have had many names and titles for God but Christians developed the Holy Trinity only centuries after Christianity took initially took root.

No, the Romans usurped Christianity and made fundamental changes in belief and practice that reflected a plethora of preexisting pagan beliefs and practices.

There was no such thing as a Jewish mangod or an edible trinity before 325 c.e. but there were already seven sacraments and the centuries old practice of partaking in the divine nature of Mithras by eating consecrated bread.

It was the Christians themselves that adapted their religion to appeal to pagans:

• Removing the need to become a Jew (no circumcision)
• Reinterpreting the Jewish Bible to prophesy the coming of Jesus
• Re-imagining the Jewish messiah as Jesus-like
  
• Arbitrarily putting Jesus' birthday at the time of the winter solstice
• Making Jesus a god with virgin birth stories, miracles, and resurrection

By the time any of that happened anyone who held the keys to the secrets of the kingdom of Heaven had already been slaughtered a very long time ago.

Roman Catholic doctrine traces the keys through the Popes to the present day, starting with St. Peter.

Greek Orthodox doctrine traces the keys through the Patriarchs to the present day, starting with St. Paul.

You don't seem to know very much about Christianity.

 

[shimon]

Victor I am Jewish I will clarify this for you...There is no proof outside the New Testament that the persona Jesus exsisted...Yes there were certain individuals that did exsist to make up some of the stories in the New Testament but they were all combined by the writers of the New Testament to give this “Jesus”a life... Basically their pens gave him breath and life and stories but he as a single human did not exist besides nothing he did would have ever qualified him to be a messiah he failed on all accounts and son of gd is not literal which was a pagan Greek or Roman etc concept...

Actually there is proof and most scholars accept that a Jewish man named Jesus in fact did exist, and in fact did have quite a following. Writers of that time (outside of New Testament authors) were disgusted by the Last Supper and what they thought it represented (cannibalism). They thought people who believed a man could rise from the dead had to be crazy, ignorant--and atheists (for not believing in Roman/Greek gods).

No There is not proof outside of the New testament "Good News"...Most Scholars accept that a jewish man exsisted named Jesus because if you Tell a lie enough people just naturally ASSume that it is true... If they look hard enough they will find nothing but hey since the last Supper is a ripoff of the Babylonian dinner where 12 gods showed up and when the thirteenth showed up one had to die to make it back to the non hated number of 12....Most peoples hated the number 13 that they nearly expunged it....We can still see this today because some places still refuse to have a 13th floor in a building...

 

[shimon]

I will be honest here and as gentle as possible... Jesus is a myth at least what is claimed for him...He was indeed created by the scribes but you must decide that for yourself.. Even the name is bogus as the letter J did not come into exsistance till the 16 th century...In my opinion Rome needed to keep their empire together so they took the concept of the Jewish messiah sprinkled in Greek mythology and took the Gaulish concept of Esus or Hesus who was placed on a tree and ritually pierced with a spear and created or fabricated the persona so that they could continue to expand their empire and control the people in it through their mask of Jesus which closely resembles the 16 crucified saviours from other cultures based on sun/ son worship...It was actually brilliant as instead of sending in garrisons of soldiers and feeding them and looking after them which would be expensive... They sent in missionaries to convert the peoples and the money flowed back to Rome making them incredibly rich and powerful so what if they lost a few missionaries along the way as long as their empire expanded unchecked....

Sorry, Shimon, but as someone who has carefully studied first and second century Roman history, not to mention Greek and Roman mythology, what you are pushing doesn't fly. It would be better to accept that the New Testament does give an accurate description of Jesus' life and teachings, but that his followers were wrong in their conclusions.

It is too easy for scholars to show that Christianity clearly has its roots in Judaism and huge differences in "similarities" people try to find in Greek and Roman mythologies.

I am not arguing that Jews should say Jesus is the messiah, that he rose from the dead, that he is the son of God. I understand the reasons that you don't--and for that matter, cannot. I am saying chasing red herrings and constructing straw men is fruitless, a waste of time, energy, and intelligence. True strength lies (and is best used) in presenting one's own religious beliefs and truths. Stick with that, and ignorance about another religion won't eclipse what you say about Judaism.

By the way, all of us Christians would do well to do the same. Some of the things I am hearing Christians say about Judaism are fully as wrong and ignorant.

Apology not accepted Meriweather.... People are smart enough to figure things out for themselves I left all that information out there for any to google it and make up their own minds since we are in the information age it is all there and cannot be covered up by those with an agenda like you... Further any with an open mind will see the pages and pages and pages of christian Apologists like yourself who try to come upwith fancy silly arguments to cover up the nonsense claimed in the new testament regarding their hero and IDOL Jesus any keeping track will notice that christians twist themselves into pretzels contorting to make Excuses for this and that convoluted logic....I am a firm believer that the truth can stand NAKED on its own merits it does not need to be covered up with pages and pages of excuses making one lie after another to do so....Quite frankly the APOLOGY is insincere and a load of malarky to any who dont have rose coloured glasses on that distorts their view on reality...

 

[Meriweather]

Do I need secular scholars to explain what I know to be nonsense?
I don't think so.
Seriously, if I was an adult in 100AD I'd be laughing my arse off.

All I am suggesting is that it may help to keep the players straight. Two men: Matthew and Paul.

 

[Meriweather]

Since when does David crying out to God prove that God cries out to God?
Do you know the history of Psalms?

I have no interest in proving (in your words) "that God cries out to God." I'm simply saying a man being crucified found comfort in Psalm 22.

 

[Indeependent]

Do I need secular scholars to explain what I know to be nonsense?
I don't think so.
Seriously, if I was an adult in 100AD I'd be laughing my arse off.

All I am suggesting is that it may help to keep the players straight. Two men: Matthew and Paul.

I am fully aware of each one's role.
I was giving credence to perhaps Paul actually recording the Gospel According to...

Doesn't eliminate the seemingly endless misquotes.

 

[Indeependent]

Since when does David crying out to God prove that God cries out to God?
Do you know the history of Psalms?

I have no interest in proving (in your words) "that God cries out to God." I'm simply saying a man being crucified found comfort in Psalm 22.

David is not being crucified.
That's RCC manipulation of the masses.