Let us discuss this openly... What exactly IS the "two states solution"?

[Lipush]

path 1; Destroy all Jews. --> The Arabs will simply move on to the next victim.
path 2; destroy all Palestinians. --> Problem solved.

That's the dumbest plan ever

 

[Humanity]

You are most certainly not alone. The only Team Palestine member who seriously discusses solutions is Coyote. But, in fairness to them, most of them would prefer a one state solution.

I prefer the term "pro-Palestinian", but there's another who I will now mention.

Humanity , care to weigh in here? I know you can post intelligently as well.

teddyearp Hmmm a hot potato if ever there was one...

For me the 2 or 3 state solution feels the best option though I have my doubts this will ever happen...

Land swaps are certainly something that would need to happen. Though, again, this is an option that is never going to be easy to resolve!

What MUST happen, in any attempt to achieve a 2 or 3 state solution would be for groups like Hamas, as an example, to call elections and halt any hostilities... At the same time, Israel to halt all settlement activities...

How the rest is achieved? Sorry, I am only human, I, like most, can only take this so far before it all turns into arguing and rhetoric!

My personal belief, and no, I have nothing to back up this belief, is that Israel will not allow a 2/3 state solution, has no interest other than 'ownership' of the whole area... As I say, I have no proof, no links to provide, just my 'theory'.

There was a good post earlier, sorry, I can't recall who it was, who came up with a 'solution' that, though not perfect and slightly weighted toward the Israel camp, makes as much sense. more sense, than most I have seen here....

Those who choose NOT to answer the question, preferring to just 'spoil' honest comments, should be blocked from threads like this where open thinking people from both sides are trying to have an adult discussion about a very difficult subject!

"Team Palestine" - I find this so the wrong phrase to use... It simply feels wrong... Also, it suggests that Team Palestine is competing against Team Israel and there will be a winner and a loser... At the moment there ONLY losers, and there will continue to be ONLY losers until a satisfactory peaceful solution can be achieved!

More importantly....

STOP KILLING EACH OTHER!!!!

 

[Lipush]

Don't know which solution will come to pass, one thing is clear, it won't come from the joke that is the UN, the Arab league, or even the USA. It can only come from us.

You cannot force us to give away anything against our will. This is not YOUR house or YOUR backyard or YOUR children dying, it's Israelis and Palestinians to pay the price of each failiure, or taste the fruit of success.

 

[Humanity]

Don't know which solution will come to pass, one thing is clear, it won't come from the joke that is the UN, the Arab league, or even the USA. It can only come from us.

You cannot force us to give away anything against our will. This is not YOUR house or YOUR backyard or YOUR children dying, it's Israelis and Palestinians to pay the price of each failiure, or taste the fruit of success.

Absolutely right!

The only ones who can decide on peace are the Israelis and Palestinians!

We can all throw in our thoughts, views and opinions but they are just that and who are we to influence what is ACTUALLY going to happen unless we are Israeli or Palestinian!

I haven't had time to read all of the posts in this thread but I wonder is a 3 state solution may be the best option?

Gaza, Israel and 'free' Palestine... A 'free' Palestine where both Arab and Jew can live and work together under Palestinian 'governance'... Someone suggested not allowing 'dual nationality'... Ok, devil in the detail, but recognise and accept the 'nationality', the identity of both!

An 'army' for 'free' Palestine? How about just a security force? There is no need for an 'army' as such... If a moderate 'free' Palestinian government can work with Israel in creating this 'free' area then it would not be in either interest to start a war!

Cooperation and collaboration is the way forward to creating a 3rd state.

Gaza? Well, sorry, IF Gaza wants to move forward in negotiations then Hamas need to hold free an open elections and, should they win, take a more open, more moderate stance. If this is not possible then they should not have any involvement in the negotiations! Also, if Hamas are unwilling to do either then there should be international pressure put upon Hamas to move to a more moderate stance...

At this time I do not believe 'moderate' is a word that can be used to describe leaders within Gaza or Israel...

 

[Lipush]

Don't know which solution will come to pass, one thing is clear, it won't come from the joke that is the UN, the Arab league, or even the USA. It can only come from us.

You cannot force us to give away anything against our will. This is not YOUR house or YOUR backyard or YOUR children dying, it's Israelis and Palestinians to pay the price of each failiure, or taste the fruit of success.

Absolutely right!

The only ones who can decide on peace are the Israelis and Palestinians!

We can all throw in our thoughts, views and opinions but they are just that and who are we to influence what is ACTUALLY going to happen unless we are Israeli or Palestinian!

I haven't had time to read all of the posts in this thread but I wonder is a 3 state solution may be the best option?

Gaza, Israel and 'free' Palestine... A 'free' Palestine where both Arab and Jew can live and work together under Palestinian 'governance'... Someone suggested not allowing 'dual nationality'... Ok, devil in the detail, but recognise and accept the 'nationality', the identity of both!

An 'army' for 'free' Palestine? How about just a security force? There is no need for an 'army' as such... If a moderate 'free' Palestinian government can work with Israel in creating this 'free' area then it would not be in either interest to start a war!

Cooperation and collaboration is the way forward to creating a 3rd state.

Gaza? Well, sorry, IF Gaza wants to move forward in negotiations then Hamas need to hold free an open elections and, should they win, take a more open, more moderate stance. If this is not possible then they should not have any involvement in the negotiations! Also, if Hamas are unwilling to do either then there should be international pressure put upon Hamas to move to a more moderate stance...

At this time I do not believe 'moderate' is a word that can be used to describe leaders within Gaza or Israel...

I'm not at all sure what's supposed to happen in Gaza. What we want is Israel where there is a majority of Jews and controlled by a democratic Knesset with rights to all its civilians. A free Palestine can have what it wants, I could really care less. They want a democracy, let them have it. They want a king? let them have it.

We just want them out of our hair. As long as there is no war with us, they can knock themselves out for all we care.

 

[Humanity]

Don't know which solution will come to pass, one thing is clear, it won't come from the joke that is the UN, the Arab league, or even the USA. It can only come from us.

You cannot force us to give away anything against our will. This is not YOUR house or YOUR backyard or YOUR children dying, it's Israelis and Palestinians to pay the price of each failiure, or taste the fruit of success.

Absolutely right!

The only ones who can decide on peace are the Israelis and Palestinians!

We can all throw in our thoughts, views and opinions but they are just that and who are we to influence what is ACTUALLY going to happen unless we are Israeli or Palestinian!

I haven't had time to read all of the posts in this thread but I wonder is a 3 state solution may be the best option?

Gaza, Israel and 'free' Palestine... A 'free' Palestine where both Arab and Jew can live and work together under Palestinian 'governance'... Someone suggested not allowing 'dual nationality'... Ok, devil in the detail, but recognise and accept the 'nationality', the identity of both!

An 'army' for 'free' Palestine? How about just a security force? There is no need for an 'army' as such... If a moderate 'free' Palestinian government can work with Israel in creating this 'free' area then it would not be in either interest to start a war!

Cooperation and collaboration is the way forward to creating a 3rd state.

Gaza? Well, sorry, IF Gaza wants to move forward in negotiations then Hamas need to hold free an open elections and, should they win, take a more open, more moderate stance. If this is not possible then they should not have any involvement in the negotiations! Also, if Hamas are unwilling to do either then there should be international pressure put upon Hamas to move to a more moderate stance...

At this time I do not believe 'moderate' is a word that can be used to describe leaders within Gaza or Israel...

I'm not at all sure what's supposed to happen in Gaza. What we want is Israel where there is a majority of Jews and controlled by a democratic Knesset with rights to all its civilians. A free Palestine can have what it wants, I could really care less. They want a democracy, let them have it. They want a king? let them have it.

We just want them out of our hair. As long as there is no war with us, they can knock themselves out for all we care.

Why do you feel that Israel should be majority Jews?

I do think that it's wrong to 'not' care what happens with a 'free Palestine'... Especially considering that a 'free Palestine' would likely incorporate settlements and require some land swap deals... I think it's very important to care what happens!

I agree however, if 'free Palestine' were a democracy or a kingdom is not that relevant PROVIDED that there is a moderate and open policy!

 

[Lipush]

Don't know which solution will come to pass, one thing is clear, it won't come from the joke that is the UN, the Arab league, or even the USA. It can only come from us.

You cannot force us to give away anything against our will. This is not YOUR house or YOUR backyard or YOUR children dying, it's Israelis and Palestinians to pay the price of each failiure, or taste the fruit of success.

Absolutely right!

The only ones who can decide on peace are the Israelis and Palestinians!

We can all throw in our thoughts, views and opinions but they are just that and who are we to influence what is ACTUALLY going to happen unless we are Israeli or Palestinian!

I haven't had time to read all of the posts in this thread but I wonder is a 3 state solution may be the best option?

Gaza, Israel and 'free' Palestine... A 'free' Palestine where both Arab and Jew can live and work together under Palestinian 'governance'... Someone suggested not allowing 'dual nationality'... Ok, devil in the detail, but recognise and accept the 'nationality', the identity of both!

An 'army' for 'free' Palestine? How about just a security force? There is no need for an 'army' as such... If a moderate 'free' Palestinian government can work with Israel in creating this 'free' area then it would not be in either interest to start a war!

Cooperation and collaboration is the way forward to creating a 3rd state.

Gaza? Well, sorry, IF Gaza wants to move forward in negotiations then Hamas need to hold free an open elections and, should they win, take a more open, more moderate stance. If this is not possible then they should not have any involvement in the negotiations! Also, if Hamas are unwilling to do either then there should be international pressure put upon Hamas to move to a more moderate stance...

At this time I do not believe 'moderate' is a word that can be used to describe leaders within Gaza or Israel...

I'm not at all sure what's supposed to happen in Gaza. What we want is Israel where there is a majority of Jews and controlled by a democratic Knesset with rights to all its civilians. A free Palestine can have what it wants, I could really care less. They want a democracy, let them have it. They want a king? let them have it.

We just want them out of our hair. As long as there is no war with us, they can knock themselves out for all we care.

Why do you feel that Israel should be majority Jews?

I do think that it's wrong to 'not' care what happens with a 'free Palestine'... Especially considering that a 'free Palestine' would likely incorporate settlements and require some land swap deals... I think it's very important to care what happens!

I agree however, if 'free Palestine' were a democracy or a kingdom is not that relevant PROVIDED that there is a moderate and open policy!

I want the stateo of Israel be majority of Jews because that's the idea of a Jewish state. we want our values and our behavior and belief to be based on our common history, costums and religion. I don't see the wrong in that. I'm a Zionist and so was my mother, and her mother, and her mother before her. That's the idea behind the right of self definition.

And just like, I don't want them to get involved in our lives, I don't need to get involved in theirs. What I means that in the way to achieve a free palestine we will need to care, of course, but once's we're "free" of THEM, then let them do whatever they want.

 

[montelatici]

Don't know which solution will come to pass, one thing is clear, it won't come from the joke that is the UN, the Arab league, or even the USA. It can only come from us.

You cannot force us to give away anything against our will. This is not YOUR house or YOUR backyard or YOUR children dying, it's Israelis and Palestinians to pay the price of each failiure, or taste the fruit of success.

Absolutely right!

The only ones who can decide on peace are the Israelis and Palestinians!

We can all throw in our thoughts, views and opinions but they are just that and who are we to influence what is ACTUALLY going to happen unless we are Israeli or Palestinian!

I haven't had time to read all of the posts in this thread but I wonder is a 3 state solution may be the best option?

Gaza, Israel and 'free' Palestine... A 'free' Palestine where both Arab and Jew can live and work together under Palestinian 'governance'... Someone suggested not allowing 'dual nationality'... Ok, devil in the detail, but recognise and accept the 'nationality', the identity of both!

An 'army' for 'free' Palestine? How about just a security force? There is no need for an 'army' as such... If a moderate 'free' Palestinian government can work with Israel in creating this 'free' area then it would not be in either interest to start a war!

Cooperation and collaboration is the way forward to creating a 3rd state.

Gaza? Well, sorry, IF Gaza wants to move forward in negotiations then Hamas need to hold free an open elections and, should they win, take a more open, more moderate stance. If this is not possible then they should not have any involvement in the negotiations! Also, if Hamas are unwilling to do either then there should be international pressure put upon Hamas to move to a more moderate stance...

At this time I do not believe 'moderate' is a word that can be used to describe leaders within Gaza or Israel...

I'm not at all sure what's supposed to happen in Gaza. What we want is Israel where there is a majority of Jews and controlled by a democratic Knesset with rights to all its civilians. A free Palestine can have what it wants, I could really care less. They want a democracy, let them have it. They want a king? let them have it.

We just want them out of our hair. As long as there is no war with us, they can knock themselves out for all we care.

Why is it racist (Nazi) for Americans to state that they want to maintain a European majority, while Israelis think it is just normal that they should be able to maintain a Jew majority?

 

[Lipush]

I don't care what Americans say they want. None of my business.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

I'm ready to open this up with the Pro-Palestinians on this board who are willing to have a logal discussion,

Let us talk this rationally. What exactly IS the two states solution? One for Israel and one for the Palestinians? What will be the borders of such states?


.

Rabid Arab Rabble Gets the Same Deal Iran Got

The Paleonasties get a missile base and the Israelis get painted a bullseye so big and flashy that it can be seen from a satelllite. The Israelis get peace, as in Rest in Peace.

 

[P F Tinmore]

All of the "Israeli" solutions deny the rights of over half of the Palestinians.

And when are you going to post your solution as I asked in post #80? In your own words without any cutting and pasting?

It is just that the Palestinians call for equal rights and the Israelis call for expelling and killing.

I think this is indicative of the moral values of the people involved.

I don't think it is that simple.

The Palestinians might be calling for equal rights but many are also unwilling to allow Israeli Jews to remain there in the settlements should that become part of their new state. In other words they are calling for expelling. Likewise...they are and have been killing.

I think it's a mistake to broad brush the moral values of a people in that way - neither the Palestinians nor the Israeli's.

This is a difficult topic to discuss because the truth is untenable. Mentioning the truth brings an onslaught name calling and accusations. We will never achieve peace until the core issues are addressed. When the Palestinians, and others, call Israel 1948 occupied Palestine they are correct. No amount of time or political recognition will change that fact.

Israel is a settler colonial project. Both Britain and the Zionists said this regularly during the mandate period. That is what they called it. That is what it was. The facts on the ground confirm it. Nobody can deny it.

Settler colonialism is not an event it is a process that continues to today. Settler colonialism is the removal of the native population and replacing them with another people. We can see this process before our eyes. It is in the news all the time.

Now, how do we unwind this and fix the problem?

 

[Coyote]

All of the "Israeli" solutions deny the rights of over half of the Palestinians.

And when are you going to post your solution as I asked in post #80? In your own words without any cutting and pasting?

It is just that the Palestinians call for equal rights and the Israelis call for expelling and killing.

I think this is indicative of the moral values of the people involved.

I don't think it is that simple.

The Palestinians might be calling for equal rights but many are also unwilling to allow Israeli Jews to remain there in the settlements should that become part of their new state. In other words they are calling for expelling. Likewise...they are and have been killing.

I think it's a mistake to broad brush the moral values of a people in that way - neither the Palestinians nor the Israeli's.

This is a difficult topic to discuss because the truth is untenable. Mentioning the truth brings an onslaught name calling and accusations. We will never achieve peace until the core issues are addressed. When the Palestinians, and others, call Israel 1948 occupied Palestine they are correct. No amount of time or political recognition will change that fact.

Israel is a settler colonial project. Both Britain and the Zionists said this regularly during the mandate period. That is what they called it. That is what it was. The facts on the ground confirm it. Nobody can deny it.

Settler colonialism is not an event it is a process that continues to today. Settler colonialism is the removal of the native population and replacing them with another people. We can see this process before our eyes. It is in the news all the time.

Now, how do we unwind this and fix the problem?

The problem is, 1948 is 70 years ago. And in the meantime a state has been established. You can't unwind it.

There is also another aspect that is ignored. It's inaccurate to claim it's just the Jews colonizing a foreign land. It isn't just that. It's a bit of land, where multiple peoples live and have a heritage. During the Jewish nationalistic struggle for that bit of land, there was an Arab nationalistic struggle for that same land. But there seems to be a deliberate ignoring of the fact that the Jews were just as much the local people. There are arguments about immigration. You have one side claiming the Palestinians are all foreign squatters and the other claiming the Jews are all foreign invaders. But the truth is - both are native, and both sustained an influx of immigration. Going against the "colonial settlement" model is the fact that Jews were also indiginous. There have always been Jewish people there, even though many more migrated in. Now if you are going to complain about that then why aren't you complaining the Arabs who immigrated into the area and are just as foreign as the Europeans? And - why don't you acknowledge that the Jews also have a right to be there and have as much right to form a state in that period of time as the Palestinian Arabs did?

I don't think your going to fix the problem by "unwinding" history and you can't fix an injustice by creating more injustices. You have to take what is there as it is now and work with it. That means Israel, as a Jewish state, is not going to disappear. It's established, it's proven it can run and hold a state, even though it most certainly has serious issues regarding equality and justice, it's far more democratic, and has a far higher standard of human rights and religious freedom then any of it's neighboring states. So fixing the problem should not be ending Israel's existence as a Jewish state because the Jews have as much right as the Palestinians to be there and to form a state.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

All of the "Israeli" solutions deny the rights of over half of the Palestinians.

And when are you going to post your solution as I asked in post #80? In your own words without any cutting and pasting?

It is just that the Palestinians call for equal rights and the Israelis call for expelling and killing.

I think this is indicative of the moral values of the people involved.

I don't think it is that simple.

The Palestinians might be calling for equal rights but many are also unwilling to allow Israeli Jews to remain there in the settlements should that become part of their new state. In other words they are calling for expelling. Likewise...they are and have been killing.

I think it's a mistake to broad brush the moral values of a people in that way - neither the Palestinians nor the Israeli's.

This is a difficult topic to discuss because the truth is untenable. Mentioning the truth brings an onslaught name calling and accusations. We will never achieve peace until the core issues are addressed. When the Palestinians, and others, call Israel 1948 occupied Palestine they are correct. No amount of time or political recognition will change that fact.

Israel is a settler colonial project. Both Britain and the Zionists said this regularly during the mandate period. That is what they called it. That is what it was. The facts on the ground confirm it. Nobody can deny it.

Settler colonialism is not an event it is a process that continues to today. Settler colonialism is the removal of the native population and replacing them with another people. We can see this process before our eyes. It is in the news all the time.

Now, how do we unwind this and fix the problem?

You haven't proposed any solution to the problem, which was the topic of this thread, and which I myself did earlier in the thread. I presented concrete proposals, which represented an evolution in my views over the years. You just reiterated what you've said a million times before, and confirmed what I've always known--that you're living in the past. With people like you who are unable to move on, that is precisely why a resolution to this conflict is very unlikely.

 

[Sixties Fan]

All of the "Israeli" solutions deny the rights of over half of the Palestinians.

And when are you going to post your solution as I asked in post #80? In your own words without any cutting and pasting?

It is just that the Palestinians call for equal rights and the Israelis call for expelling and killing.

I think this is indicative of the moral values of the people involved.

I don't think it is that simple.

The Palestinians might be calling for equal rights but many are also unwilling to allow Israeli Jews to remain there in the settlements should that become part of their new state. In other words they are calling for expelling. Likewise...they are and have been killing.

I think it's a mistake to broad brush the moral values of a people in that way - neither the Palestinians nor the Israeli's.

This is a difficult topic to discuss because the truth is untenable. Mentioning the truth brings an onslaught name calling and accusations. We will never achieve peace until the core issues are addressed. When the Palestinians, and others, call Israel 1948 occupied Palestine they are correct. No amount of time or political recognition will change that fact.

Israel is a settler colonial project. Both Britain and the Zionists said this regularly during the mandate period. That is what they called it. That is what it was. The facts on the ground confirm it. Nobody can deny it.

Settler colonialism is not an event it is a process that continues to today. Settler colonialism is the removal of the native population and replacing them with another people. We can see this process before our eyes. It is in the news all the time.

Now, how do we unwind this and fix the problem?

The problem is, 1948 is 70 years ago. And in the meantime a state has been established. You can't unwind it.

There is also another aspect that is ignored. It's inaccurate to claim it's just the Jews colonizing a foreign land. It isn't just that. It's a bit of land, where multiple peoples live and have a heritage. During the Jewish nationalistic struggle for that bit of land, there was an Arab nationalistic struggle for that same land. But there seems to be a deliberate ignoring of the fact that the Jews were just as much the local people. There are arguments about immigration. You have one side claiming the Palestinians are all foreign squatters and the other claiming the Jews are all foreign invaders. But the truth is - both are native, and both sustained an influx of immigration. Going against the "colonial settlement" model is the fact that Jews were also indiginous. There have always been Jewish people there, even though many more migrated in. Now if you are going to complain about that then why aren't you complaining the Arabs who immigrated into the area and are just as foreign as the Europeans? And - why don't you acknowledge that the Jews also have a right to be there and have as much right to form a state in that period of time as the Palestinian Arabs did?

I don't think your going to fix the problem by "unwinding" history and you can't fix an injustice by creating more injustices. You have to take what is there as it is now and work with it. That means Israel, as a Jewish state, is not going to disappear. It's established, it's proven it can run and hold a state, even though it most certainly has serious issues regarding equality and justice, it's far more democratic, and has a far higher standard of human rights and religious freedom then any of it's neighboring states. So fixing the problem should not be ending Israel's existence as a Jewish state because the Jews have as much right as the Palestinians to be there and to form a state.

<<But the truth is - both are native, and both sustained an influx of immigration.>>

You seem to miss the meaning of the word Native/Indigenous.

All the tribes living in the Americas and Australia, Hawaii, New Zealand before the 1492 European "discovery" and colonization are the Indigenous, Native people of the land.

The people who had a Nation, culture and history living at the time of the various European invasions, or even the Assyrian invasion, were the Jewish People, also known as the Jewish Nation.

They were there when the Greeks, Romans, Byzantine and the Muslims arrived on that land. It is all recorded in their documents, books, etc

Native = Indigenous = having formed a distinct people whose ancient history happened on that piece of land.

There are the Pagan, Christian and Muslim invaders of the Jewish Homeland, what had been the Nation of Israel.

A new majority due to Muslim and Christian migration to the land does not make that land, or in the Americas, etc.... any less belonging to any of the 500 First Nations, or the Mayans, Aztecs, etc.

All it means is that since that invasion the Indigenous people lost sovereignty over their land.

The Jews worked for and regained sovereignty over some of their land. Only 20% out of 100% of it, as it had been promised.

Muslims are totally against any Muslim conquered land being taken away from them by non Muslims.

THAT, in a nutshell, is the core of the conflict. And why hamas and the PA will never accept any peace treaty with Israel as Egypt and Jordan were forced to do, due to financial considerations for their countries.

Jordan is already a State carved out of Palestine.
Gaza should have become another one once Israel withdrew all Israelis in 2005.
Hamas did not want a State.
Their charter demands the destruction of all of Israel as a Jewish State, and a Muslim one in its place.
It is the same thing with Abbas, the PLO, Fatah.

Defunding those Muslim organizations and UNWRA would be the first step to having those groups accept Israel as a State, and accepting to negotiate a Peace Treaty.

Egypt and Jordan did it.

Now is time for the other Muslims to do the same.

 

[Coyote]

And when are you going to post your solution as I asked in post #80? In your own words without any cutting and pasting?

It is just that the Palestinians call for equal rights and the Israelis call for expelling and killing.

I think this is indicative of the moral values of the people involved.

I don't think it is that simple.

The Palestinians might be calling for equal rights but many are also unwilling to allow Israeli Jews to remain there in the settlements should that become part of their new state. In other words they are calling for expelling. Likewise...they are and have been killing.

I think it's a mistake to broad brush the moral values of a people in that way - neither the Palestinians nor the Israeli's.

This is a difficult topic to discuss because the truth is untenable. Mentioning the truth brings an onslaught name calling and accusations. We will never achieve peace until the core issues are addressed. When the Palestinians, and others, call Israel 1948 occupied Palestine they are correct. No amount of time or political recognition will change that fact.

Israel is a settler colonial project. Both Britain and the Zionists said this regularly during the mandate period. That is what they called it. That is what it was. The facts on the ground confirm it. Nobody can deny it.

Settler colonialism is not an event it is a process that continues to today. Settler colonialism is the removal of the native population and replacing them with another people. We can see this process before our eyes. It is in the news all the time.

Now, how do we unwind this and fix the problem?

The problem is, 1948 is 70 years ago. And in the meantime a state has been established. You can't unwind it.

There is also another aspect that is ignored. It's inaccurate to claim it's just the Jews colonizing a foreign land. It isn't just that. It's a bit of land, where multiple peoples live and have a heritage. During the Jewish nationalistic struggle for that bit of land, there was an Arab nationalistic struggle for that same land. But there seems to be a deliberate ignoring of the fact that the Jews were just as much the local people. There are arguments about immigration. You have one side claiming the Palestinians are all foreign squatters and the other claiming the Jews are all foreign invaders. But the truth is - both are native, and both sustained an influx of immigration. Going against the "colonial settlement" model is the fact that Jews were also indiginous. There have always been Jewish people there, even though many more migrated in. Now if you are going to complain about that then why aren't you complaining the Arabs who immigrated into the area and are just as foreign as the Europeans? And - why don't you acknowledge that the Jews also have a right to be there and have as much right to form a state in that period of time as the Palestinian Arabs did?

I don't think your going to fix the problem by "unwinding" history and you can't fix an injustice by creating more injustices. You have to take what is there as it is now and work with it. That means Israel, as a Jewish state, is not going to disappear. It's established, it's proven it can run and hold a state, even though it most certainly has serious issues regarding equality and justice, it's far more democratic, and has a far higher standard of human rights and religious freedom then any of it's neighboring states. So fixing the problem should not be ending Israel's existence as a Jewish state because the Jews have as much right as the Palestinians to be there and to form a state.

<<But the truth is - both are native, and both sustained an influx of immigration.>>

You seem to miss the meaning of the word Native/Indigenous.

All the tribes living in the Americas and Australia, Hawaii, New Zealand before the 1492 European "discovery" and colonization are the Indigenous, Native people of the land.

The people who had a Nation, culture and history living at the time of the various European invasions, or even the Assyrian invasion, were the Jewish People, also known as the Jewish Nation.

They were there when the Greeks, Romans, Byzantine and the Muslims arrived on that land. It is all recorded in their documents, books, etc

Native = Indigenous = having formed a distinct people whose ancient history happened on that piece of land.

There are the Pagan, Christian and Muslim invaders of the Jewish Homeland, what had been the Nation of Israel.

A new majority due to Muslim and Christian migration to the land does not make that land, or in the Americas, etc.... any less belonging to any of the 500 First Nations, or the Mayans, Aztecs, etc.

All it means is that since that invasion the Indigenous people lost sovereignty over their land.

The Jews worked for and regained sovereignty over some of their land. Only 20% out of 100% of it, as it had been promised.

I totally disagree. Who is or is not "indiginous" in the strict meaning of the term is irrelevent. It's irrelevant in the face of the fact that you have thousands of people who have been living in that region for generations, centuries, millinia including many who were once Jews and converted to invading religions (and this too is documented in history) and in the people's genome. It's irrelevent because you can't just tell people with deep roots and ties that all of a sudden they don't belong there and it does nothing to provide a solution.

 

[Shusha]

Now, how do we unwind this and fix the problem?

Since you are the only one on this thread to frame the problem this way, you are the only one who can answer this question.

So, what do you suggest? Removing the "settler colonists"?

 

[P F Tinmore]

All of the "Israeli" solutions deny the rights of over half of the Palestinians.

And when are you going to post your solution as I asked in post #80? In your own words without any cutting and pasting?

It is just that the Palestinians call for equal rights and the Israelis call for expelling and killing.

I think this is indicative of the moral values of the people involved.

I don't think it is that simple.

The Palestinians might be calling for equal rights but many are also unwilling to allow Israeli Jews to remain there in the settlements should that become part of their new state. In other words they are calling for expelling. Likewise...they are and have been killing.

I think it's a mistake to broad brush the moral values of a people in that way - neither the Palestinians nor the Israeli's.

This is a difficult topic to discuss because the truth is untenable. Mentioning the truth brings an onslaught name calling and accusations. We will never achieve peace until the core issues are addressed. When the Palestinians, and others, call Israel 1948 occupied Palestine they are correct. No amount of time or political recognition will change that fact.

Israel is a settler colonial project. Both Britain and the Zionists said this regularly during the mandate period. That is what they called it. That is what it was. The facts on the ground confirm it. Nobody can deny it.

Settler colonialism is not an event it is a process that continues to today. Settler colonialism is the removal of the native population and replacing them with another people. We can see this process before our eyes. It is in the news all the time.

Now, how do we unwind this and fix the problem?

The problem is, 1948 is 70 years ago. And in the meantime a state has been established. You can't unwind it.

There is also another aspect that is ignored. It's inaccurate to claim it's just the Jews colonizing a foreign land. It isn't just that. It's a bit of land, where multiple peoples live and have a heritage. During the Jewish nationalistic struggle for that bit of land, there was an Arab nationalistic struggle for that same land. But there seems to be a deliberate ignoring of the fact that the Jews were just as much the local people. There are arguments about immigration. You have one side claiming the Palestinians are all foreign squatters and the other claiming the Jews are all foreign invaders. But the truth is - both are native, and both sustained an influx of immigration. Going against the "colonial settlement" model is the fact that Jews were also indiginous. There have always been Jewish people there, even though many more migrated in. Now if you are going to complain about that then why aren't you complaining the Arabs who immigrated into the area and are just as foreign as the Europeans? And - why don't you acknowledge that the Jews also have a right to be there and have as much right to form a state in that period of time as the Palestinian Arabs did?

I don't think your going to fix the problem by "unwinding" history and you can't fix an injustice by creating more injustices. You have to take what is there as it is now and work with it. That means Israel, as a Jewish state, is not going to disappear. It's established, it's proven it can run and hold a state, even though it most certainly has serious issues regarding equality and justice, it's far more democratic, and has a far higher standard of human rights and religious freedom then any of it's neighboring states. So fixing the problem should not be ending Israel's existence as a Jewish state because the Jews have as much right as the Palestinians to be there and to form a state.

You are giving Israel's narrative. Are you saying that we should let injustice slide? What justification can you give for that. Israel has created a massive problem and you want to let them off the hook. Why?

 

[Coyote]

And when are you going to post your solution as I asked in post #80? In your own words without any cutting and pasting?

It is just that the Palestinians call for equal rights and the Israelis call for expelling and killing.

I think this is indicative of the moral values of the people involved.

I don't think it is that simple.

The Palestinians might be calling for equal rights but many are also unwilling to allow Israeli Jews to remain there in the settlements should that become part of their new state. In other words they are calling for expelling. Likewise...they are and have been killing.

I think it's a mistake to broad brush the moral values of a people in that way - neither the Palestinians nor the Israeli's.

This is a difficult topic to discuss because the truth is untenable. Mentioning the truth brings an onslaught name calling and accusations. We will never achieve peace until the core issues are addressed. When the Palestinians, and others, call Israel 1948 occupied Palestine they are correct. No amount of time or political recognition will change that fact.

Israel is a settler colonial project. Both Britain and the Zionists said this regularly during the mandate period. That is what they called it. That is what it was. The facts on the ground confirm it. Nobody can deny it.

Settler colonialism is not an event it is a process that continues to today. Settler colonialism is the removal of the native population and replacing them with another people. We can see this process before our eyes. It is in the news all the time.

Now, how do we unwind this and fix the problem?

The problem is, 1948 is 70 years ago. And in the meantime a state has been established. You can't unwind it.

There is also another aspect that is ignored. It's inaccurate to claim it's just the Jews colonizing a foreign land. It isn't just that. It's a bit of land, where multiple peoples live and have a heritage. During the Jewish nationalistic struggle for that bit of land, there was an Arab nationalistic struggle for that same land. But there seems to be a deliberate ignoring of the fact that the Jews were just as much the local people. There are arguments about immigration. You have one side claiming the Palestinians are all foreign squatters and the other claiming the Jews are all foreign invaders. But the truth is - both are native, and both sustained an influx of immigration. Going against the "colonial settlement" model is the fact that Jews were also indiginous. There have always been Jewish people there, even though many more migrated in. Now if you are going to complain about that then why aren't you complaining the Arabs who immigrated into the area and are just as foreign as the Europeans? And - why don't you acknowledge that the Jews also have a right to be there and have as much right to form a state in that period of time as the Palestinian Arabs did?

I don't think your going to fix the problem by "unwinding" history and you can't fix an injustice by creating more injustices. You have to take what is there as it is now and work with it. That means Israel, as a Jewish state, is not going to disappear. It's established, it's proven it can run and hold a state, even though it most certainly has serious issues regarding equality and justice, it's far more democratic, and has a far higher standard of human rights and religious freedom then any of it's neighboring states. So fixing the problem should not be ending Israel's existence as a Jewish state because the Jews have as much right as the Palestinians to be there and to form a state.

You are giving Israel's narrative. Are you saying that we should let injustice slide? What justification can you give for that. Israel has created a massive problem and you want to let them off the hook. Why?

No...I'm not giving Israel's narrative.

But you can not right an injustice by creating a another - right? So how do you go about fixing it? And in fairness - who is it Israel that created a massive problem? Seems to me it took TWO to tango since at multiple points the Arabs could have accepted that Israel would have a state and they could develop a state alongside. The lack of peace is complicated by a lack of recognition of each for the rights of the other. It's by no means one sided.

 

[Sixties Fan]

It is just that the Palestinians call for equal rights and the Israelis call for expelling and killing.

I think this is indicative of the moral values of the people involved.

I don't think it is that simple.

The Palestinians might be calling for equal rights but many are also unwilling to allow Israeli Jews to remain there in the settlements should that become part of their new state. In other words they are calling for expelling. Likewise...they are and have been killing.

I think it's a mistake to broad brush the moral values of a people in that way - neither the Palestinians nor the Israeli's.

This is a difficult topic to discuss because the truth is untenable. Mentioning the truth brings an onslaught name calling and accusations. We will never achieve peace until the core issues are addressed. When the Palestinians, and others, call Israel 1948 occupied Palestine they are correct. No amount of time or political recognition will change that fact.

Israel is a settler colonial project. Both Britain and the Zionists said this regularly during the mandate period. That is what they called it. That is what it was. The facts on the ground confirm it. Nobody can deny it.

Settler colonialism is not an event it is a process that continues to today. Settler colonialism is the removal of the native population and replacing them with another people. We can see this process before our eyes. It is in the news all the time.

Now, how do we unwind this and fix the problem?

The problem is, 1948 is 70 years ago. And in the meantime a state has been established. You can't unwind it.

There is also another aspect that is ignored. It's inaccurate to claim it's just the Jews colonizing a foreign land. It isn't just that. It's a bit of land, where multiple peoples live and have a heritage. During the Jewish nationalistic struggle for that bit of land, there was an Arab nationalistic struggle for that same land. But there seems to be a deliberate ignoring of the fact that the Jews were just as much the local people. There are arguments about immigration. You have one side claiming the Palestinians are all foreign squatters and the other claiming the Jews are all foreign invaders. But the truth is - both are native, and both sustained an influx of immigration. Going against the "colonial settlement" model is the fact that Jews were also indiginous. There have always been Jewish people there, even though many more migrated in. Now if you are going to complain about that then why aren't you complaining the Arabs who immigrated into the area and are just as foreign as the Europeans? And - why don't you acknowledge that the Jews also have a right to be there and have as much right to form a state in that period of time as the Palestinian Arabs did?

I don't think your going to fix the problem by "unwinding" history and you can't fix an injustice by creating more injustices. You have to take what is there as it is now and work with it. That means Israel, as a Jewish state, is not going to disappear. It's established, it's proven it can run and hold a state, even though it most certainly has serious issues regarding equality and justice, it's far more democratic, and has a far higher standard of human rights and religious freedom then any of it's neighboring states. So fixing the problem should not be ending Israel's existence as a Jewish state because the Jews have as much right as the Palestinians to be there and to form a state.

<<But the truth is - both are native, and both sustained an influx of immigration.>>

You seem to miss the meaning of the word Native/Indigenous.

All the tribes living in the Americas and Australia, Hawaii, New Zealand before the 1492 European "discovery" and colonization are the Indigenous, Native people of the land.

The people who had a Nation, culture and history living at the time of the various European invasions, or even the Assyrian invasion, were the Jewish People, also known as the Jewish Nation.

They were there when the Greeks, Romans, Byzantine and the Muslims arrived on that land. It is all recorded in their documents, books, etc

Native = Indigenous = having formed a distinct people whose ancient history happened on that piece of land.

There are the Pagan, Christian and Muslim invaders of the Jewish Homeland, what had been the Nation of Israel.

A new majority due to Muslim and Christian migration to the land does not make that land, or in the Americas, etc.... any less belonging to any of the 500 First Nations, or the Mayans, Aztecs, etc.

All it means is that since that invasion the Indigenous people lost sovereignty over their land.

The Jews worked for and regained sovereignty over some of their land. Only 20% out of 100% of it, as it had been promised.

I totally disagree. Who is or is not "indiginous" in the strict meaning of the term is irrelevent. It's irrelevant in the face of the fact that you have thousands of people who have been living in that region for generations, centuries, millinia including many who were once Jews and converted to invading religions (and this too is documented in history) and in the people's genome. It's irrelevent because you can't just tell people with deep roots and ties that all of a sudden they don't belong there and it does nothing to provide a solution.

You may have missed somewhere that there are no non Muslims living in what was known in TranJordan today, although they did live in it until 1925 when the British simply gave a recently arrived Arab Muslim clan 77% of the Mandate for Palestine, which was part of the Jewish Homeland and where Jews were going to be allowed to stay and live in it, as they had done for thousands of years.

Or, you missed where there were Jews living in the area of the Gaza Strip for thousands of years, until 1920, when they were expelled by the British for "security" concerns.

Or you missed where all the Jews were expelled from the oldest Jewish town in the area, around 3800 years, in 1929 when they were attacked by Muslims and then expelled by the British (Mandate, anyone?) instead of expelling those who were responsible for the attacks.

Or....you may have missed when Jordan's Hashemite clan invaded Israel, with the help of the British who had just given up their Mandate,after Israel's Independence and murdered and expelled ALL JEWS from ALL of Judea, Samaria and the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem (known, now, to some as "Arab East Jerusalem)


So, your point is that it is irrelevant as to who is the indigenous people, with ancestral rights (like any other ancestral people) to their ancient homeland.

The Muslims disagree.

They do know that the Jews are the ancestral people of that ancestral land. But that is not the point in Islam to many Muslims.
It is about never allowing Jews to be sovereign to even a tiny piece of what is left since the British betrayed the Jews in 1922 and decided to give 77% of the Mandate to Arabs who had just been kicked out of THEIR homeland in Arabia by another Arab clan.

Also, you are assuming, because it has been repeated a Million times by Jew haters, that ALL Jews on that land had converted to Christianity or Islam.

That is totally incorrect. And NO, the Jews who returned to the Jewish homeland (and had always done so in every century since the fall of the Roman Empire) are not "Europeans", as in .....their ancestral homes were in Germany, England, France, Spain, etc, etc.

They are descendants of those Jews who at one point or another did go to Europe, like anyone else and created communities (Italian, English, Spanish, Scottish, etc) somewhere else.

They continue to be descendants from those who came from Asia Minor, from the land of Israel, from the Nation of Israel.

Apaches who moves to Europe for many centuries are still Apaches, their ancient homeland is still where it is in the USA, and no Apache will be telling them that they have no right of return to their homeland.

Jews from Europe, Americas, Mesopotamia, Iran, Syria, Egypt, etc.
All of them have the right to their ancient homeland, and be known as the indigenous people of that land.


Final point:

There are 2.5 Million non-Jews living in Israel, still. None of them were uprooted. They stayed on the land during the Independence war of 1948. They were not asked to leave or expelled by Israel.

Just look at all the expulsions done by Arabs and the British of the Jewish population from 1920 to 1948.

How many Jews are left in Muslim countries?

Saudi Arabia = 0
Jordan = 0
Egypt = 40-50
Iraq = about 7
Yemen =300
Bahrai = 36
Iran = 12,000
Lebanon = 200

Jewish population by country - Wikipedia

The Jewish populations in all of those countries were much larger before 1948. Since then Jews were expelled or forced to escape.
What did they have to do with Israel? They were Jews.

The same thing is happening in Europe where Jews are being forced to leave due to the increase in the Muslim population and their anti Israel/Jewish sentiments.

Increase in Muslim population = increase in attacks on Jews.
Not just Israelis.


No Jews in Gaza.
No Jews in areas A and B or the West Bank (Judea and Samaria)


Just which people have been told that they do not belong and have no roots to the land?
And which people have avoided accepting a partition in 1947, or Peace treaties in 2000 and 2008?

Which people took all of their people out of an area which protected the South of Israel from rocket attacks, only to have the other people continue to attack with about 14,000 rockets and no intent of negotiations for Peace, since 2005?


Think about all the points I made before you answer.

Do you actually believe that Hawaiians, Maoris, Aboriginal tribes, Amazonian tribes, etc, do not care if they are called the Indigenous people of the land, with what that word actually means? And with the endless attempts to take more and more of their land?

 

[P F Tinmore]

It's irrelevent because you can't just tell people with deep roots and ties that all of a sudden they don't belong there and it does nothing to provide a solution.

As Israel does to the Palestinians.