CDZ Let's Take Over Syria!

[Elvis Obama]

This thread is a great example of what liberals consider "clean debate."

Your reply is a good example of hyper-partisan psychosis. What has this thread got to do with political ideology?

Since it's YOUR thread, what does it have to do with ANYTHING?

Middle Easy policy. The value of maintaining the illusion of sovereignty.

You seem to be completely and pointlessly argumentative. If you're not interested in discussing the subject of this post, then don't. I assure you I have no interest in the opinion of someone who is incapable of seeing anything except through the prism of hyper-partisanism.

 

[oldsoul]

And Iraq too. Let's merge them into one country, Syraq.

A silly fantasy, of course. Just food for thought. The only way to make such an idea work is to have China, Russia, the EU and the US on the same page. The we could run it like Berlin after WWII, with each entity in control of its own sector. Or like Japan, except each entity would have control for ten year periods.

I would guess this project would take about two centuries. The goal is to create a stable, economically successful state in the midst of the cesspool that is the Middle East. A haven for all those people in the region who are crushed under religious fanaticism and ruthless dictatorship. To consolidate the talents of the region and accelerated modernization.

Why? Because the Middle East is too much damn trouble. Ninth Century mentalities are tolerable only so long as they stay within their borders and don't bother anyone. The only sure-fire cure for terrorism is a thriving middle-class. Something which provides disaffected youth with an alternative to religious fanaticism. We cannot trust any of the governments of the Middle East to achieve this for their young people. These countries are in desperate need of training wheels.

Maybe The West should just drop 10 Atomic Bombs on ENTIRE Middle East....then this solves ALL problems in entire Middle East, as the region would cease to exist.

Why is it that your answer to so many problems is "nuke 'em". Do you not recall the devastation of the only two A-bombs ever used? Are you unfamiliar with the term fall-out? Do you not understand that the fall-out from such an attack would, likely, change the entire world? This is in addition to the fact that there are allies in the area you are proposing to nuke. What of them? Are you some kind of anti-semite? Do you hate the Egyptians too? What about India? Have you even bothered to consider these things before you go shooting your mouth off?

 

[wrathbone]

And Iraq too. Let's merge them into one country, Syraq.

A silly fantasy, of course. Just food for thought. The only way to make such an idea work is to have China, Russia, the EU and the US on the same page. The we could run it like Berlin after WWII, with each entity in control of its own sector. Or like Japan, except each entity would have control for ten year periods.

I would guess this project would take about two centuries. The goal is to create a stable, economically successful state in the midst of the cesspool that is the Middle East. A haven for all those people in the region who are crushed under religious fanaticism and ruthless dictatorship. To consolidate the talents of the region and accelerated modernization.

Why? Because the Middle East is too much damn trouble. Ninth Century mentalities are tolerable only so long as they stay within their borders and don't bother anyone. The only sure-fire cure for terrorism is a thriving middle-class. Something which provides disaffected youth with an alternative to religious fanaticism. We cannot trust any of the governments of the Middle East to achieve this for their young people. These countries are in desperate need of training wheels.

Maybe The West should just drop 10 Atomic Bombs on ENTIRE Middle East....then this solves ALL problems in entire Middle East, as the region would cease to exist.

It is an option...

 

[oldsoul]

And Iraq too. Let's merge them into one country, Syraq.

A silly fantasy, of course. Just food for thought. The only way to make such an idea work is to have China, Russia, the EU and the US on the same page. The we could run it like Berlin after WWII, with each entity in control of its own sector. Or like Japan, except each entity would have control for ten year periods.

I would guess this project would take about two centuries. The goal is to create a stable, economically successful state in the midst of the cesspool that is the Middle East. A haven for all those people in the region who are crushed under religious fanaticism and ruthless dictatorship. To consolidate the talents of the region and accelerated modernization.

Why? Because the Middle East is too much damn trouble. Ninth Century mentalities are tolerable only so long as they stay within their borders and don't bother anyone. The only sure-fire cure for terrorism is a thriving middle-class. Something which provides disaffected youth with an alternative to religious fanaticism. We cannot trust any of the governments of the Middle East to achieve this for their young people. These countries are in desperate need of training wheels.

Maybe The West should just drop 10 Atomic Bombs on ENTIRE Middle East....then this solves ALL problems in entire Middle East, as the region would cease to exist.

I wonder how it feels to talk about "the west" (AKA the U.S.) from a weak, pussified place such as Europe. You want 10 atomic bombs dropped on the middle east? What offer will you make us in exchange for that happening?

Our Russian friends could do it, Russia is Europa's friend, Washington DC isn't.

Russia, yeah, home of Gulages, forced labor camps, Tzars, Rasputin, Stalinism, Leninism, and good old fashioned communism. Yeah, great friends. I wish to never be invited to your parties.

 

[wrathbone]

Well, what to do when homicidal psycho-paths rape and pillage thousands of people? Give them a sponge bath and slap their asses? Play nice muslim militants.....give me a break....murder is all they know!

 

[oldsoul]

And Iraq too. Let's merge them into one country, Syraq.

A silly fantasy, of course. Just food for thought. The only way to make such an idea work is to have China, Russia, the EU and the US on the same page. The we could run it like Berlin after WWII, with each entity in control of its own sector. Or like Japan, except each entity would have control for ten year periods.

I would guess this project would take about two centuries. The goal is to create a stable, economically successful state in the midst of the cesspool that is the Middle East. A haven for all those people in the region who are crushed under religious fanaticism and ruthless dictatorship. To consolidate the talents of the region and accelerated modernization.

Why? Because the Middle East is too much damn trouble. Ninth Century mentalities are tolerable only so long as they stay within their borders and don't bother anyone. The only sure-fire cure for terrorism is a thriving middle-class. Something which provides disaffected youth with an alternative to religious fanaticism. We cannot trust any of the governments of the Middle East to achieve this for their young people. These countries are in desperate need of training wheels.

Here's what we do well. We can topple a dictator. We can help rebuild regions with a tradition of democracy.

Here's what we cannot seem to do. We cannot institute a democratic government in regions without previous experience in democracy.

We keep trying, but so far, no success on day two after the overthrow of dictators.

How about Japan and Germany after WWII? We took over these countries and managed them, because in the collective view of the world they were incapable of managing themselves. Now they're democracies. What was true for Germany and Japan is a thousand times truer for the countries of the Middle East. They cannot manage themselves, and their ineptitude is simple to destabilizing to be allowed to continue. Both Germany and Japan were much more advanced, industrial nations, though. That's why it would take so much longer in the ME. The alternative is to leave them to their own devices, which isn't working out too well right now.

I agree with you, in theory, however, how would we establish and maintain law and order? Marshal law? That would work for a while, until people started to get used to it, then eventually, revolt, maybe revolution (see Communist China as an example). The answer is to find a way to win the hearts and minds of the youth. That is the ONLY path to a stable and peaceful ME. OMHO.

 

[oldsoul]

Well, what to do when homicidal psycho-paths rape and pillage thousands of people? Give them a sponge bath and slap their asses? Play nice muslim militants.....give me a break....murder is all they know!

True, however, nuking them is not a viable option. We have far more to lose, as a country and as a species, than to gain. We would:

• nullify all nuclear bans.
• create a fall-out cloud that would negatively affect most, if not all, of the globe.
• we could start a nuclear WWIII.
• we would make it so no resources, including oil, could be accessed for years, maybe genrations (I know, there are few besides oil).
• We would obliterate Israel, Egypt, and others.

This is just a partial list of the negatives. There are other options, and those are far less devastating, to the world, than dropping nukes.

 

[wrathbone]

And Iraq too. Let's merge them into one country, Syraq.

A silly fantasy, of course. Just food for thought. The only way to make such an idea work is to have China, Russia, the EU and the US on the same page. The we could run it like Berlin after WWII, with each entity in control of its own sector. Or like Japan, except each entity would have control for ten year periods.

I would guess this project would take about two centuries. The goal is to create a stable, economically successful state in the midst of the cesspool that is the Middle East. A haven for all those people in the region who are crushed under religious fanaticism and ruthless dictatorship. To consolidate the talents of the region and accelerated modernization.

Why? Because the Middle East is too much damn trouble. Ninth Century mentalities are tolerable only so long as they stay within their borders and don't bother anyone. The only sure-fire cure for terrorism is a thriving middle-class. Something which provides disaffected youth with an alternative to religious fanaticism. We cannot trust any of the governments of the Middle East to achieve this for their young people. These countries are in desperate need of training wheels.

Here's what we do well. We can topple a dictator. We can help rebuild regions with a tradition of democracy.

Here's what we cannot seem to do. We cannot institute a democratic government in regions without previous experience in democracy.

We keep trying, but so far, no success on day two after the overthrow of dictators.

How about Japan and Germany after WWII? We took over these countries and managed them, because in the collective view of the world they were incapable of managing themselves. Now they're democracies. What was true for Germany and Japan is a thousand times truer for the countries of the Middle East. They cannot manage themselves, and their ineptitude is simple to destabilizing to be allowed to continue. Both Germany and Japan were much more advanced, industrial nations, though. That's why it would take so much longer in the ME. The alternative is to leave them to their own devices, which isn't working out too well right now.

I agree with you, in theory, however, how would we establish and maintain law and order? Marshal law? That would work for a while, until people started to get used to it, then eventually, revolt, maybe revolution (see Communist China as an example). The answer is to find a way to win the hearts and minds of the youth. That is the ONLY path to a stable and peaceful ME. OMHO.

Well no doubt, educating the masses on how to live civilized is always a timely challenge but ultimate goal indeed. The key is the youth suffering under these oppressors, the affect is pure suffering. But, these militants have to be dealt a heavy hand...

 

[oldsoul]

And Iraq too. Let's merge them into one country, Syraq.

A silly fantasy, of course. Just food for thought. The only way to make such an idea work is to have China, Russia, the EU and the US on the same page. The we could run it like Berlin after WWII, with each entity in control of its own sector. Or like Japan, except each entity would have control for ten year periods.

I would guess this project would take about two centuries. The goal is to create a stable, economically successful state in the midst of the cesspool that is the Middle East. A haven for all those people in the region who are crushed under religious fanaticism and ruthless dictatorship. To consolidate the talents of the region and accelerated modernization.

Why? Because the Middle East is too much damn trouble. Ninth Century mentalities are tolerable only so long as they stay within their borders and don't bother anyone. The only sure-fire cure for terrorism is a thriving middle-class. Something which provides disaffected youth with an alternative to religious fanaticism. We cannot trust any of the governments of the Middle East to achieve this for their young people. These countries are in desperate need of training wheels.

Here's what we do well. We can topple a dictator. We can help rebuild regions with a tradition of democracy.

Here's what we cannot seem to do. We cannot institute a democratic government in regions without previous experience in democracy.

We keep trying, but so far, no success on day two after the overthrow of dictators.

How about Japan and Germany after WWII? We took over these countries and managed them, because in the collective view of the world they were incapable of managing themselves. Now they're democracies. What was true for Germany and Japan is a thousand times truer for the countries of the Middle East. They cannot manage themselves, and their ineptitude is simple to destabilizing to be allowed to continue. Both Germany and Japan were much more advanced, industrial nations, though. That's why it would take so much longer in the ME. The alternative is to leave them to their own devices, which isn't working out too well right now.

I agree with you, in theory, however, how would we establish and maintain law and order? Marshal law? That would work for a while, until people started to get used to it, then eventually, revolt, maybe revolution (see Communist China as an example). The answer is to find a way to win the hearts and minds of the youth. That is the ONLY path to a stable and peaceful ME. OMHO.

Well no doubt, educating the masses on how to live civilized is always a timely challenge but ultimate goal indeed. The key is the youth suffering under these oppressors, the affect is pure suffering. But, these militants have to be dealt a heavy hand...

If by that you mean meet force with force, then yes you are correct. The only way to defeat ISIS, and other militant fundimentalists, is through total destruction. Destruction of the people, not the region. The region is NOT the problem, it is a group (or more accuratly, a group of groups), that is the problem. This calls, IMO, for counter-insurgentcy forces (AKA Guerilla warfare). Small, highly trained, well equiped units of fighters that do not know the definition of failure, and will kill the enemy by ANY means nessicary. Fighters that can, and will strike from anywhere, at any time, and are trained to infiltrate enemy units.

 

[Nosmo King]

And Iraq too. Let's merge them into one country, Syraq.

A silly fantasy, of course. Just food for thought. The only way to make such an idea work is to have China, Russia, the EU and the US on the same page. The we could run it like Berlin after WWII, with each entity in control of its own sector. Or like Japan, except each entity would have control for ten year periods.

I would guess this project would take about two centuries. The goal is to create a stable, economically successful state in the midst of the cesspool that is the Middle East. A haven for all those people in the region who are crushed under religious fanaticism and ruthless dictatorship. To consolidate the talents of the region and accelerated modernization.

Why? Because the Middle East is too much damn trouble. Ninth Century mentalities are tolerable only so long as they stay within their borders and don't bother anyone. The only sure-fire cure for terrorism is a thriving middle-class. Something which provides disaffected youth with an alternative to religious fanaticism. We cannot trust any of the governments of the Middle East to achieve this for their young people. These countries are in desperate need of training wheels.

Here's what we do well. We can topple a dictator. We can help rebuild regions with a tradition of democracy.

Here's what we cannot seem to do. We cannot institute a democratic government in regions without previous experience in democracy.

We keep trying, but so far, no success on day two after the overthrow of dictators.

How about Japan and Germany after WWII? We took over these countries and managed them, because in the collective view of the world they were incapable of managing themselves. Now they're democracies. What was true for Germany and Japan is a thousand times truer for the countries of the Middle East. They cannot manage themselves, and their ineptitude is simple to destabilizing to be allowed to continue. Both Germany and Japan were much more advanced, industrial nations, though. That's why it would take so much longer in the ME. The alternative is to leave them to their own devices, which isn't working out too well right now.

Germany andJapan had a free press, local elections, a tradition of democratic comportment. Where in the Middle East can that be said?

We suck at nation building where the foundation for democracy hasn't already been laid.

 

[wrathbone]

And Iraq too. Let's merge them into one country, Syraq.

A silly fantasy, of course. Just food for thought. The only way to make such an idea work is to have China, Russia, the EU and the US on the same page. The we could run it like Berlin after WWII, with each entity in control of its own sector. Or like Japan, except each entity would have control for ten year periods.

I would guess this project would take about two centuries. The goal is to create a stable, economically successful state in the midst of the cesspool that is the Middle East. A haven for all those people in the region who are crushed under religious fanaticism and ruthless dictatorship. To consolidate the talents of the region and accelerated modernization.

Why? Because the Middle East is too much damn trouble. Ninth Century mentalities are tolerable only so long as they stay within their borders and don't bother anyone. The only sure-fire cure for terrorism is a thriving middle-class. Something which provides disaffected youth with an alternative to religious fanaticism. We cannot trust any of the governments of the Middle East to achieve this for their young people. These countries are in desperate need of training wheels.

Here's what we do well. We can topple a dictator. We can help rebuild regions with a tradition of democracy.

Here's what we cannot seem to do. We cannot institute a democratic government in regions without previous experience in democracy.

We keep trying, but so far, no success on day two after the overthrow of dictators.

How about Japan and Germany after WWII? We took over these countries and managed them, because in the collective view of the world they were incapable of managing themselves. Now they're democracies. What was true for Germany and Japan is a thousand times truer for the countries of the Middle East. They cannot manage themselves, and their ineptitude is simple to destabilizing to be allowed to continue. Both Germany and Japan were much more advanced, industrial nations, though. That's why it would take so much longer in the ME. The alternative is to leave them to their own devices, which isn't working out too well right now.

I agree with you, in theory, however, how would we establish and maintain law and order? Marshal law? That would work for a while, until people started to get used to it, then eventually, revolt, maybe revolution (see Communist China as an example). The answer is to find a way to win the hearts and minds of the youth. That is the ONLY path to a stable and peaceful ME. OMHO.

Well no doubt, educating the masses on how to live civilized is always a timely challenge but ultimate goal indeed. The key is the youth suffering under these oppressors, the affect is pure suffering. But, these militants have to be dealt a heavy hand...

If by that you mean meet force with force, then yes you are correct. The only way to defeat ISIS, and other militant fundimentalists, is through total destruction. Destruction of the people, not the region. The region is NOT the problem, it is a group (or more accuratly, a group of groups), that is the problem. This calls, IMO, for counter-insurgentcy forces (AKA Guerilla warfare). Small, highly trained, well equiped units of fighters that do not know the definition of failure, and will kill the enemy by ANY means nessicary. Fighters that can, and will strike from anywhere, at any time, and are trained to infiltrate enemy units.

I'm all for an armed strategic insurrection, as the enemy has embedded themselves amongst the population. We'll need local forces and coalition forces. Procrastination creates more destabilization.

 

[TNHarley]

LOL yea right.
When are people going to learn?
You cant stabilize the ME.

 

[wrathbone]

LOL yea right.
When are people going to learn?
You cant stabilize the ME.

A moderate stabilization based upon living not dying....

 

[TNHarley]

LOL yea right.
When are people going to learn?
You cant stabilize the ME.

A moderate stabilization based upon living not dying....

Islam is not just a religion, it is a political philosophy and complete way of life.
Go ahead and do it.
Maybe THIS TIME another underground revolution wont be brewing.
Fixing the ME relies in THEIR hands.

 

[oldsoul]

LOL yea right.
When are people going to learn?
You cant stabilize the ME.

A moderate stabilization based upon living not dying....

Islam is not just a religion, it is a political philosophy and complete way of life.
Go ahead and do it.
Maybe THIS TIME another underground revolution wont be brewing.
Fixing the ME relies in THEIR hands.

And that is what we are discussing. Giving them the means to do it themselves, with our help, as needed. This is what we did in Japan, and Germany, and we can do it again. This time we will have to lay the groundwork for it ourselves, that is the only difference.

It almost seems as though you want the ME to stay unstable. Why is it that you think that (if, indeed, you do)?

 

[jwoodie]

This thread is a great example of what liberals consider "clean debate."

Your reply is a good example of hyper-partisan psychosis. What has this thread got to do with political ideology?

Since it's YOUR thread, what does it have to do with ANYTHING?

Middle Easy policy. The value of maintaining the illusion of sovereignty.

You seem to be completely and pointlessly argumentative. If you're not interested in discussing the subject of this post, then don't. I assure you I have no interest in the opinion of someone who is incapable of seeing anything except through the prism of hyper-partisanism.

Actually, I was making an observation about your self-described "silly idea" which quickly devolved into an anti-Trump love fest (Posts 1-5). At that point, it did not appear to be a genuine topic for Clean (i.e., serious) Debate. I am still not convinced it is, but I apologize for my "hyper-partisan" tone.

 

[TNHarley]

LOL yea right.
When are people going to learn?
You cant stabilize the ME.

A moderate stabilization based upon living not dying....

Islam is not just a religion, it is a political philosophy and complete way of life.
Go ahead and do it.
Maybe THIS TIME another underground revolution wont be brewing.
Fixing the ME relies in THEIR hands.

And that is what we are discussing. Giving them the means to do it themselves, with our help, as needed. This is what we did in Japan, and Germany, and we can do it again. This time we will have to lay the groundwork for it ourselves, that is the only difference.

It almost seems as though you want the ME to stay unstable. Why is it that you think that (if, indeed, you do)?

Germans and Asians are different from Islamic Arabs. History is on my side, unfortunately.
Its not about me wanting them stabilized or de-stabilized. Islam is its own system and handles its own problems.
It almost seems as though you want another IS to pop up in due time

 

[oldsoul]

And Iraq too. Let's merge them into one country, Syraq.

A silly fantasy, of course. Just food for thought. The only way to make such an idea work is to have China, Russia, the EU and the US on the same page. The we could run it like Berlin after WWII, with each entity in control of its own sector. Or like Japan, except each entity would have control for ten year periods.

I would guess this project would take about two centuries. The goal is to create a stable, economically successful state in the midst of the cesspool that is the Middle East. A haven for all those people in the region who are crushed under religious fanaticism and ruthless dictatorship. To consolidate the talents of the region and accelerated modernization.

Why? Because the Middle East is too much damn trouble. Ninth Century mentalities are tolerable only so long as they stay within their borders and don't bother anyone. The only sure-fire cure for terrorism is a thriving middle-class. Something which provides disaffected youth with an alternative to religious fanaticism. We cannot trust any of the governments of the Middle East to achieve this for their young people. These countries are in desperate need of training wheels.

Here's what we do well. We can topple a dictator. We can help rebuild regions with a tradition of democracy.

Here's what we cannot seem to do. We cannot institute a democratic government in regions without previous experience in democracy.

We keep trying, but so far, no success on day two after the overthrow of dictators.

How about Japan and Germany after WWII? We took over these countries and managed them, because in the collective view of the world they were incapable of managing themselves. Now they're democracies. What was true for Germany and Japan is a thousand times truer for the countries of the Middle East. They cannot manage themselves, and their ineptitude is simple to destabilizing to be allowed to continue. Both Germany and Japan were much more advanced, industrial nations, though. That's why it would take so much longer in the ME. The alternative is to leave them to their own devices, which isn't working out too well right now.

Germany andJapan had a free press, local elections, a tradition of democratic comportment. Where in the Middle East can that be said?

We suck at nation building where the foundation for democracy hasn't already been laid.

True, and that is because we have refused to do THAT work for ourselves. If we can keep the politicians out of the equation, and that is a big if, and let the real diplomats do thier work, it can, and will work.

First things first though. We have to do what is nessicary to provide for our own security, Take out ISIS, and confront all others who would take their place. At the same time, we need to educate the youth, so they see other options for themselves. This will take two generations (in my opinion), at the least. It may take three, four, five, who knows. The piont is, if we do nothing but fight, we play right into their hand and we will never see a resolution.

 

[TNHarley]

LOL yea right.
When are people going to learn?
You cant stabilize the ME.

A moderate stabilization based upon living not dying....

Islam is not just a religion, it is a political philosophy and complete way of life.
Go ahead and do it.
Maybe THIS TIME another underground revolution wont be brewing.
Fixing the ME relies in THEIR hands.

And that is what we are discussing. Giving them the means to do it themselves, with our help, as needed. This is what we did in Japan, and Germany, and we can do it again. This time we will have to lay the groundwork for it ourselves, that is the only difference.

It almost seems as though you want the ME to stay unstable. Why is it that you think that (if, indeed, you do)?

As a matter of fact, this is more of that "American exceptionalism" from last week. I believe you rated my post a "winner". Did your mind change that fast, or is stabilizing countries an exception?

 

[TNHarley]

People don't seem to understand Islam. Or history for that matter.