Man kills pastor during church service

[Gunny]

Wow. So the solution is to turn churches into free fire zones? This sounds like one of the conspiracy theorists who demand to know why the second plane wasn't shot down on 9/11. Let's not bother with the fact real world events in real time were happening faster than most people can react.

He pulls out a gun and shoots the pastor. Someone is fast enough, and can do situation assessment fast enough to draw a concealed weapon and stop him from killing the pastor? I think not.

If you're as mentally sharp as a samurai sword he will have already turned that gun on the crowd, and you, before you can react.

Nah. It WAS lucky the gun jammed.

 

[Modbert]

It's pure speculation on your part. Do you think he would have walked into the church if he had known someone else might have a gun? We don't know. He fired several times. Did he miss? Would that have given someone time to take him out? We don't know. You would be surprised how fast people can draw a firearm. Someone might have been able to take him out after the first shot. Would that have made a difference? We don't know.

The fact is, we don't know. That includes you.

That's alot of IFs there Xsited, isn't that a Liberal tactic?

Though seriously, I don't trust half the people to go to church with simple things, never mind protecting my ass in firing a gun. So yeah, let them go packing in a church so when shit like this happens, they all accidently shoot each other because you want people going into church packing.

 

[Modbert]

I do. And unlike Article 15, I am quite certain I could take that guy out after the first shot possibly saving the Pastor's life.

Hope you're a good shot and don't miss while hitting the pastor yourself.

 

[Gunny]

I do. And unlike Article 15, I am quite certain I could take that guy out after the first shot possibly saving the Pastor's life.

Hope you're a good shot and don't miss while hitting the pastor yourself.

That isn't the problem. Most people who are adequately-or-better trained could take the shot without hitting anyone else. The problem here is reaction time. At best, you could draw and shoot before he managed to shoot anyone in addition to the pastor. That's if you can draw fast enough, are an excellent marksman, and the stones to stand in front of someone shooting at you and calmly dispatch them.

 

[Missourian]

How many of you carry your guns to church? Just curious.

My brother takes his everywhere. (concealed of course)
My sister does too,in her purse.

In Missouri, places of worship are restricted areas for legally concealed weapons as are schools, colleges, concerts, sporting events, police stations, any establishment whose primary income is derived from the sale of alcohol and polling locations. As a responsible and law abiding gun owner, I obey those restrictions religiously...no pun intended.

So,,,,,,, you're saying no guns allowed in these places, unless you're planning on shooting up the place? So maybe THAT'S why we hear so much about shootings taking place in the no gun zones.

Yes.

Really, how does one protect themselves and their familes from the crazies if you can't carry?

Good question.

I wonder if I can take my blow gun to church and school?

It has the word 'gun' in it, beware zero tolerance.

 

[Modbert]

That isn't the problem. Most people who are adequately-or-better trained could take the shot without hitting anyone else. The problem here is reaction time. At best, you could draw and shoot before he managed to shoot anyone in addition to the pastor. That's if you can draw fast enough, are an excellent marksman, and the stones to stand in front of someone shooting at you and calmly dispatch them.

Sure it is a problem. Take a bunch of people in a somewhat large area, someone pulls out a gun and begins to fire; chaos erupts and people begin to pull out guns. Now since the pastor is right there, I'm willing to bet some people will think that somebody else is firing at the pastor and will turn their gun on the audience which will set off a chain reaction.

Too many stupid people in this world with guns, I'm not knocking the responsible gun owners but I think we can agree that there are too many stupid people in this world who are packing.

And that's another factor you have to take into consideration. Sure, everybody here who has a gun could fire, but how many are willing to act like Paul Kersey and fire that gun?

 

[WillowTree]

Wow. So the solution is to turn churches into free fire zones? This sounds like one of the conspiracy theorists who demand to know why the second plane wasn't shot down on 9/11. Let's not bother with the fact real world events in real time were happening faster than most people can react.

He pulls out a gun and shoots the pastor. Someone is fast enough, and can do situation assessment fast enough to draw a concealed weapon and stop him from killing the pastor? I think not.

If you're as mentally sharp as a samurai sword he will have already turned that gun on the crowd, and you, before you can react.

Nah. It WAS lucky the gun jammed.

he shot several people after he shot the pastor,, those are the people who may have been saved..

 

[Article 15]

Wow. So the solution is to turn churches into free fire zones? This sounds like one of the conspiracy theorists who demand to know why the second plane wasn't shot down on 9/11. Let's not bother with the fact real world events in real time were happening faster than most people can react.

He pulls out a gun and shoots the pastor. Someone is fast enough, and can do situation assessment fast enough to draw a concealed weapon and stop him from killing the pastor? I think not.

If you're as mentally sharp as a samurai sword he will have already turned that gun on the crowd, and you, before you can react.

Nah. It WAS lucky the gun jammed.

he shot several people after he shot the pastor,, those are the people who may have been saved..

No he didn't. What the hell are you talking about?

 

[Modbert]

he shot several people after he shot the pastor,, those are the people who may have been saved..

Actually no, but try again since you failed miserably.

Only the pastor died, the other two got injured due to being near the knife the guy was trying to kill himself with.

 

[Modbert]

No he didn't. What the hell are you talking about?

Willow is so use to lying about Obama and Liberals that she forgot to turn off that mindset here when it comes to even the most obvious of facts.

 

[WillowTree]

Wow. So the solution is to turn churches into free fire zones? This sounds like one of the conspiracy theorists who demand to know why the second plane wasn't shot down on 9/11. Let's not bother with the fact real world events in real time were happening faster than most people can react.

He pulls out a gun and shoots the pastor. Someone is fast enough, and can do situation assessment fast enough to draw a concealed weapon and stop him from killing the pastor? I think not.

If you're as mentally sharp as a samurai sword he will have already turned that gun on the crowd, and you, before you can react.

Nah. It WAS lucky the gun jammed.

he shot several people after he shot the pastor,, those are the people who may have been saved..

No he didn't. What the hell are you talking about?

An Illinois pastor used the Bible he was reading from to shield himself from bullets being pumped at him from an unknown gunman who opened fire during Sunday services at the First Baptist Church in Maryville, Ill.

[B]Senior Pastor Fred Winters was preaching during the 8:15 a.m. service when a man entered the church, walked down the aisle and started shooting, a parishioner told FOX News. Four others were also reportedly shot.[/B]

The .45 caliber semi-automatic pistol then jammed and the suspect started stabbing himself with a knife, Ralph Timmins of the Illinois State Police told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.


FOXNews.com - Pastor Dead After Shooting at a First Baptist Church in Illinois - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News

 

[WillowTree]

No he didn't. What the hell are you talking about?

Willow is so use to lying about Obama and Liberals that she forgot to turn off that mindset here when it comes to even the most obvious of facts.

 

[Article 15]

he shot several people after he shot the pastor,, those are the people who may have been saved..

No he didn't. What the hell are you talking about?

An Illinois pastor used the Bible he was reading from to shield himself from bullets being pumped at him from an unknown gunman who opened fire during Sunday services at the First Baptist Church in Maryville, Ill.

[B]Senior Pastor Fred Winters was preaching during the 8:15 a.m. service when a man entered the church, walked down the aisle and started shooting, a parishioner told FOX News. Four others were also reportedly shot.[/B]

The .45 caliber semi-automatic pistol then jammed and the suspect started stabbing himself with a knife, Ralph Timmins of the Illinois State Police told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.


FOXNews.com - Pastor Dead After Shooting at a First Baptist Church in Illinois - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News

It would have been a lot more honest of you to post that link before or when you said that.

 

[Article 15]

Oh, and I happen to agree with you, Willow.

One thing I will agree with or put forward is that if someone else had a gun in the church it could prevent further loss of life. But that Pastor never had a chance.

 

[Missourian]

Sure it is a problem. Take a bunch of people in a somewhat large area, someone pulls out a gun and begins to fire; chaos erupts and people begin to pull out guns. Now since the pastor is right there, I'm willing to bet some people will think that somebody else is firing at the pastor and will turn their gun on the audience which will set off a chain reaction.

Too many stupid people in this world with guns, I'm not knocking the responsible gun owners but I think we can agree that there are too many stupid people in this world who are packing.

And that's another factor you have to take into consideration. Sure, everybody here who has a gun could fire, but how many are willing to act like Paul Kersey and fire that gun?

I'm not sure your supposition holds water based on the only situation similar to what you are describing that I am personally aware of.

David Zaback, Master Criminal Found this on Snopes, figured you would all enjoy it.

On 3 February 1990, David Zaback attempted to hold up H&J Leather & Firearms Ltd., a gun shop located in Renton Highlands near Seattle, Washington.

About 4:40 p.m. that day, he entered the crowded shop and announced his intention to rob it by telling everyone to put their hands on the counter and saying if anybody moved, he'd kill them. He then spotted a uniformed policeman having coffee with Wendall Woodall, the shop's owner. What happened next is less than clear in terms of who shot first, but there was an exchange of gunfire between David Zaback, the would-be robber; Timothy Lally, an 18-year veteran of the King County police force; and Danny Morris, one of the shop's clerks.

Zaback's weapon was a .38-caliber semiautomatic pistol, The clerk, Morris, fired a 10mm semiautomatic pistol, the policeman, Lally, fired a 9mm semiautomatic pistol. As for the participation of others, according to Renton police Capt. Don Persson, although several other customers had guns and pulled them, they did not shoot — the only ones involved in the exchange of lead were Zaback, Lally, and Morris.

The robber was pronounced dead at the scene by Paramedics. Crime scene investigators located 47 expended cartridge cases in the shop. The subsequent autopsy revealed 23 gunshot wounds. Ballistics identified rounds from 7 different weapons. It's unclear how many shots were fired, in part because some of the suspect's shots struck ammunition on a counter, causing the ammunition to explode.

"There were slugs all over that place," Persson said. Zaback, who had fired three times, was shot three times in the chest and once in the arm. He died in the hospital about four hours after the shooting. No one else was injured during the incident, and no charges were subsequently laid against Lally or Morris. Renton police Capt. Don Persson said, "The surprising thing is that the man had to walk right past a marked police car to get in the front door."

 

[Gunny]

That isn't the problem. Most people who are adequately-or-better trained could take the shot without hitting anyone else. The problem here is reaction time. At best, you could draw and shoot before he managed to shoot anyone in addition to the pastor. That's if you can draw fast enough, are an excellent marksman, and the stones to stand in front of someone shooting at you and calmly dispatch them.

Sure it is a problem. Take a bunch of people in a somewhat large area, someone pulls out a gun and begins to fire; chaos erupts and people begin to pull out guns. Now since the pastor is right there, I'm willing to bet some people will think that somebody else is firing at the pastor and will turn their gun on the audience which will set off a chain reaction.

Too many stupid people in this world with guns, I'm not knocking the responsible gun owners but I think we can agree that there are too many stupid people in this world who are packing.

And that's another factor you have to take into consideration. Sure, everybody here who has a gun could fire, but how many are willing to act like Paul Kersey and fire that gun?

Your scenario is no more realistic than the quickdraw one. Natural reaction for most people will be to freeze while their brain tries to catch up to real event. Next reaction will be to dive behind a pew or try to head for the door. That would include almost everyone CCW. Most people are more interested in saving their own asses than someone else's.

In this case, where his gun jammed, the damage was done before anyone could have gotten off a shot.

 

[Gunny]

Sure it is a problem. Take a bunch of people in a somewhat large area, someone pulls out a gun and begins to fire; chaos erupts and people begin to pull out guns. Now since the pastor is right there, I'm willing to bet some people will think that somebody else is firing at the pastor and will turn their gun on the audience which will set off a chain reaction.

Too many stupid people in this world with guns, I'm not knocking the responsible gun owners but I think we can agree that there are too many stupid people in this world who are packing.

And that's another factor you have to take into consideration. Sure, everybody here who has a gun could fire, but how many are willing to act like Paul Kersey and fire that gun?

I'm not sure your supposition holds water based on the only situation similar to what you are describing that I am personally aware of.

David Zaback, Master Criminal Found this on Snopes, figured you would all enjoy it.

On 3 February 1990, David Zaback attempted to hold up H&J Leather & Firearms Ltd., a gun shop located in Renton Highlands near Seattle, Washington.

About 4:40 p.m. that day, he entered the crowded shop and announced his intention to rob it by telling everyone to put their hands on the counter and saying if anybody moved, he'd kill them. He then spotted a uniformed policeman having coffee with Wendall Woodall, the shop's owner. What happened next is less than clear in terms of who shot first, but there was an exchange of gunfire between David Zaback, the would-be robber; Timothy Lally, an 18-year veteran of the King County police force; and Danny Morris, one of the shop's clerks.

Zaback's weapon was a .38-caliber semiautomatic pistol, The clerk, Morris, fired a 10mm semiautomatic pistol, the policeman, Lally, fired a 9mm semiautomatic pistol. As for the participation of others, according to Renton police Capt. Don Persson, although several other customers had guns and pulled them, they did not shoot — the only ones involved in the exchange of lead were Zaback, Lally, and Morris.

The robber was pronounced dead at the scene by Paramedics. Crime scene investigators located 47 expended cartridge cases in the shop. The subsequent autopsy revealed 23 gunshot wounds. Ballistics identified rounds from 7 different weapons. It's unclear how many shots were fired, in part because some of the suspect's shots struck ammunition on a counter, causing the ammunition to explode.

"There were slugs all over that place," Persson said. Zaback, who had fired three times, was shot three times in the chest and once in the arm. He died in the hospital about four hours after the shooting. No one else was injured during the incident, and no charges were subsequently laid against Lally or Morris. Renton police Capt. Don Persson said, "The surprising thing is that the man had to walk right past a marked police car to get in the front door."

Heh. Some people are just to stupid to be alive.

 

[Harry Dresden]

o fuck me willow.excuse me...only a sane mother fucker would shot the damn pastor....in church....like even a pagan knows that is most likely a one way ticket to hell.

so if i kill a pastor in church,in "GODS" eyes, this is worse than if i killed him out by the dumpster?......

i dont know how you god would react...but my goddess would be upset..if someone gunned down a priest or priestess in a house of worship...just saying..and yea...just like its worse to murder an infant than a scum sucking muslims...location does matter

WTF.....if a god says IT IS WRONG TO KILL,AND IF YOU DO YOU WILL BE PUNISHED.... by being thrown into the pits of hell.....but hey if you kill someone in the house of worship,i will throw you into the hotter part of hell.......O....K....

 

[Gunny]

Oh, and I happen to agree with you, Willow.

One thing I will agree with or put forward is that if someone else had a gun in the church it could prevent further loss of life. But that Pastor never had a chance.

Don't you just love it when people who agree with you are jumping all over you anyway?

 

[Gunny]

so if i kill a pastor in church,in "GODS" eyes, this is worse than if i killed him out by the dumpster?......

i dont know how you god would react...but my goddess would be upset..if someone gunned down a priest or priestess in a house of worship...just saying..and yea...just like its worse to murder an infant than a scum sucking muslims...location does matter

WTF.....if a god says IT IS WRONG TO KILL,AND IF YOU DO YOU WILL BE PUNISHED.... by being thrown into the pits of hell.....but hey if you kill someone in the house of worship,i will throw you into the hotter part of hell.......O....K....

I happen to agree with SB on this one. Not that I think the punishment is worse ... there's just something S-O-O-O wrong if not even hypocritical about carrying weapons of violence into the Lord's house.