Manufacturing Consent on Same Sex Marriage

[bendog]

The polls were wrong about Mitt too.

 

[JakeStarkey]

This thesis "The issue of same sex marriage boils down to adults selfishly seeking to define a right to have children over and above the right of children to intact biological families" is unsustainable.

Children have a right to a family, whether biological or not.

The error is to suggest, without any evidence, that children have a right to "biological" families.

Children have a right and have the need to be loved by 'parents', whether biological or not.

When a couple hires another to help produce a child that child is denied biological parents, and or a mother/father.

So what? So does adoption? No one has made a compelling argument that such is a bad thing. The ASA doesn't think so.

 

[nodoginnafight]

maybe we need an "unskewed" poll.
How did those pan out?

 

[JakeStarkey]

The poster Seawytch, a self avowed lesbian living near San Francisco CA, ground zero for the LGBT cult movement, had an arrangement like that. She said, if I remember correctly, that she had five pregnancies. I think the last was twins.. So that would be six children? Anyway, it was one or two of the babies she arranged to give to a gay male couple. One of which was one of the twin boys. The others, she and her lesbian friend are raising, presumably. Not sure if any of this was on the radar of child protective services. And it dabbles into a grey area of selling children. She did say she exchanged semen service for children which is a sale of sorts.

There are no words to mark.

The hetero-fascists are merely negotiating the extent of their surrender.

The bolder above is close to libel.

 

[bendog]

They've chosen not to ask for terms and go down to the last man. (pun intended)

 

[JakeStarkey]

the Harvey Milk v Utah case has yet to be heard

My friend at the AG's office says there is no such case and that they certainly are not going to mention Harvey Milk, That was shot down in the first hours of discussion at the office with very, very little resistance.

 

[R.D.]

This thesis "The issue of same sex marriage boils down to adults selfishly seeking to define a right to have children over and above the right of children to intact biological families" is unsustainable.

Children have a right to a family, whether biological or not.

The error is to suggest, without any evidence, that children have a right to "biological" families.

Children have a right and have the need to be loved by 'parents', whether biological or not.

When a couple hires another to help produce a child that child is denied biological parents, and or a mother/father.

So what? So does adoption? No one has made a compelling argument that such is a bad thing. The ASA doesn't think so.

Not so. Adoption means the child was already born, not engineered for a gay couple.

 

[nodoginnafight]

When a couple hires another to help produce a child that child is denied biological parents, and or a mother/father.

So what? So does adoption? No one has made a compelling argument that such is a bad thing. The ASA doesn't think so.

Not so. Adoption means the child was already born, not engineered for a gay couple.

so is it the engineering you oppose or just the "for a gay couple" part?

 

[bodecea]

How did the Left gain the upper hand with same sex marriage? A technique identified by Cass Sunstein and Timur Kuran explains the simple, effective process: Availability Cascades.

An AVAILABILITY CASCADE is a self-reinforcing process of collective belief formation by which an expressed perception triggers a chain reaction that give the perception increasing plausibility through its rising availability in public discourse. The driving mechanism involves a combination of informational and reputational motives: Individuals endorse the perception partly by learning from the apparent beliefs of others and partly by distorting their public responses in the interest of maintaining social acceptance. Availability entrepreneurs -- activists who manipulate the content of public discourse -- strive to trigger availability cascades likely to advance their agendas ("Availability Cascades and Risk Regulation," Timur Kuran and Cass Sunstein, Stanford Law Review, 1999).


Articles: Manufacturing Consent on Same Sex Marriage

Reading the authors preface is recommended to those on the left who like play the victim card. Part of it : The issue of same sex marriage boils down to adults selfishly seeking to define a right to have children over and above the right of children to intact biological families.

It's manipulating reality to assert GLBT are just like the rest of us. Of course it is.

But that gay ice skating guy is definitely trying to get me to do a double take. LOL

Except for the gender of those we are attracted to, we are just like the rest of you.

 

[bodecea]

I actually thought it would take another 15 years to swamp the anti-gay sentiment. But it is happening faster than I thought.

Talk to people under 40 - the vast majority of them really don't care at all if someone is gay. I figured it would take 10 or 15 years for enough of the other, older folks who seem so concerned about other people's love life to die off.

But apparently, a lot of them are just changing their minds. I am amazed to see how public opinion on this issue has shifted so dramatically and so quickly.

The truth is no one really cares if someone is gay. But we dont need to hear about it all the time. And we don't need to pretend that two guys playing house are really Tom and Mary.

Nor do we need the FORCED ACCEPTENCE

Who is forcing you to accept my marriage? No one is forcing me to accept your marriage.

 

[Seawytch]

The reason the gay civil rights movement seems to be moving so fast is because of families...and friends and co-workers...they are driving equality because we came out to them. It's really hard to look a loved one in the face and say"you don't deserve the same rights I have".

It's coming out to our families that is driving this movement.

 

[Seawytch]

And Sil, it's five babies, four pregnancies. My partner and I have two children from a known sperm donor. I later was a gestational surrogate, twice, for a gay male couple. I did give birth to twins with the final pregnancy, a boy and a girl...with different fathers.

 

[Silhouette]

No one has made a compelling argument that such is a bad thing. The ASA doesn't think so.

A statement on the ASA Amicus Brief to the 10th district court of appeals and it's era of turmoil when temporal politics was vying at the same time to overcome hard science...at the same time a gay cabal was overtaking the APA... [Jake is referring to the ASA filing an Amicus Brief to the Courts on behalf of the gay vs Utah] The ASA has as its guidelines the softening of science in favor of political fuzzy math that fits "the needs of the people" instead of objective findings... So much for science. I never thought I'd live to see the day where the dissolving of science and factfinding has become vogue . I thought we did away with that in the Dark Ages. They called them the Dark Ages for precisely that reason...

The golden era of the Association reached its zenith in the sixties: a decade of turmoil and crisis for the Association as well as for American society...

...The turmoil was generated by the growth in numbers and activities and by trends toward democratization and equalization that had been operating for, at least, four decades within the Association, and for even longer within the larger society.

In the first half of the decade, the crisis centered on the operation of the Executive Office, relations with regional and affiliated societies, the organization of the Association and the Constitution.

In the second half, the crisis focused on equalizing opportunities within the Association and the profession of women, racial and ethnic minorities, and members employed in non-academic settings...

...In 1963, President Everett C. Hughes outlined a guiding philosophy for the Association as it attempted to cope with the strains of growth: "Since we are a lively and growing organization, none of our problems can be solved once and for all. The best we can do is to seek solutions for the present and near future, with an eye to the direction of change, while remaining true to the goals of a learned and scientific society."... American Sociological Association: Rhoades History Chapter 8

A blurb from an ASA link on how social science research is done; with a link to the APA source, one of others, it uses to form it's conclusions:

http://www.asanet.org/ethics/resources/EthicsBibliography.pdf
...AAUP. 2000. “Institutional Review Boards and Social Science Research.” [IRB]...

...This 200 page volume was written specifically for the voting members of IRBs. It provides background information on the IRB system, the intended focus of IRB discussions, what members should before and during meetings, and summarizes basic guidelines for evaluating specific kinds of studies. It also contains a substantial section on references for additional information, including websites, books, and video recordings.

Azar, Beth. 2002. “Ethics at the Cost of Research?” Monitor on Psychology. 33(2).
American Psychological Association. Ethics at the cost of research? ...

"Ethics at the cost of research"??? So research shouldn't be ethical according to the APA Brazenly, they go into detail here:

Few topics elicit more emotion from psychology researchers than the mention of three simple letters: IRB.

Institutional review boards--those federally mandated ethics committees that evaluate all federally funded and most institutionally sponsored research conducted with humans--are often seen by researchers as synonymous with delays, unreasonable requests and seemingly capricious requirements. Behavioral and social science researchers' major complaint is that many IRBs subject them to regulations written and interpreted through a biomedical lens, with little recognition of the major differences between medical research and what they do. This results, in their view, in unnecessary delays and constraints that impede research but do little to enhance the protection of research participants.

To help facilitate researcher and IRB interactions, APA and other groups are seeking to better educate IRBs about social and behavioral sciences research as well as to teach researchers how they can work more effectively with their IRBs.

"We need to move in a direction where we all come to value issues involved in human protections," says psychologist Michael Fendrich, PhD, a researcher and chair of the social and behavioral sciences IRB at the University of Illinois, Chicago. "We need to see it as a gain for our research--not a burden--that makes the research better."...

...Local interpretations

Although the condemnation of IRBs can get quite strong, even the most vitriolic researcher agrees that, in theory, IRBs serve an important role in ensuring ethical research and maintaining public confidence in the research system.

"I have had some wonderful experiences with IRBs," says Pennsylvania State University developmental psychologist Sheri Berenbaum, PhD, who deals with multiple IRBs because her work spans several institutions. "Penn State's IRB, for example, is a model of how an IRB should operate. [Its members] hold in mind the question of what the risk is to the subject and everything they ask ties back to minimizing that risk. They've recently noticed a problem that I overlooked and I'm grateful for that oversight."...

...APA hopes to help with some of these problems by creating educational documents that could help IRBs better understand the goals and procedures of behavioral research and how federal regulations apply to that work. APA's Board of Scientific Affairs (BSA) has made this issue a top priority this year and hopes to have something to send out to IRBs by fall. "We need to help them think of procedures that are less taxing for them and for us," says University of Rochester social psychologist Harry T. Reis, PhD, chair of BSA....

Ethics at the cost of research?

Yes, actual science can be SO taxing in a research paper the public later relies upon to make important and profound decisions...like, I don't know, maybe an amicus brief to the US Supreme Court on whether or not the Harvey Milk cult should access orphans to adopt by the privelege of marriage?...decisions like that.

Here's a history of how the APA and its sphere of influences [see "ASA"] came to regard politics in favor of science...you know, that pesky, tasking stuff that makes objective conclusions...:

Dr. Nicholas Cummings was President of the APA from 1979 to 1980, and also served as a member of the organization’s Council of Representatives. He served for years as Chief of Mental Health with the Kaiser-Permanente Health Maintenance Organization, and is the author of the book “Destructive Trends in Mental Health: The Well-Intentioned Path to Harm.”...

...The APA “started changing pretty drastically by the late 1980s,” said Cummings. “By the mid 1990s, the Leona Tyler principle was absolutely forgotten, that political stances seemed to override any scientific results. Cherry-picking results became the mode. The gay rights movement sort of captured the APA.”

..Cummings says that the movement for “diversity” in the APA, which he endorsed, had resulted in a lack of diversity regarding heterosexuals. Former president of APA says organization (now) controlled by ‘gay rights’ movement

The Leona Tyler Principle was the guideline for the APA for ages that any stance they take publicly must be based in science. It was in place for many years. Suddenly, it was 'disappeared' and searches for it at the APA website come up empty. The board didn't even vote on disappearing it. It just 'vanished'.

And now you know where the source of viability of the ASA amicus brief comes from...

 

[R.D.]

So what? So does adoption? No one has made a compelling argument that such is a bad thing. The ASA doesn't think so.

Not so. Adoption means the child was already born, not engineered for a gay couple.

so is it the engineering you oppose or just the "for a gay couple" part?

I didn't write the piece. Its his view two men engineering a child is not the same as a mother and a father. Kids need and yearn for both a mom and dad. I happen to agree That was an aside anyway.

As a society redefining marriage is not embraced, votes tell us this. Consent that is manufactured is not real. They haven't won in the arena of ideas: They have won through tactics of manipulation, engineered by social scientists, psychologists, clever political operatives and legions of volunteers.

As such, the moral high ground the Radical Left now seems to enjoy is extremely fragile. Popular support has been fabricated.

 

[Silhouette]

And Sil, it's five babies, four pregnancies. My partner and I have two children from a known sperm donor. I later was a gestational surrogate, twice, for a gay male couple. I did give birth to twins with the final pregnancy, a boy and a girl...with different fathers.

I clearly remember you saying you had twins and gave one of them over to a gay male couple. That's the part that stuck in my mind anyway. Thanks for the correction on the number. However, were the men entitled to just one half of that gestation or both twins? Why would you separate twins at birth and give only half of the gestation up that you contracted out to these gay men and... Did these specific gay men donate the sperm for your other pregnancies? Was there a dollar amount placed on the donation? What were the arrangments legally. Posters here would be very curious to know. I know I am.

 

[Silhouette]

As a society redefining marriage is not embraced, votes tell us this. Consent that is manufactured is not real. They haven't won in the arena of ideas: They have won through tactics of manipulation, engineered by social scientists, psychologists, clever political operatives and legions of volunteers.

As such, the moral high ground the Radical Left now seems to enjoy is extremely fragile. Popular support has been fabricated.

Agreed. It would topple in the instant one of two things were revealed:

1. Their connection with the veneration of Harvey Milk and what his sexuality was all about and

2. The minute housewives otherwise on the fence about gay marriage discovered it means legally the precedent for the extremely quick [it will be lightening-fast] ushering in of another group of "consenting adults in love". Polygamy. Wait until Cheryl Q. Minivan, age 30 something figures out she'll be sharing the love nest with 20 something Susie Comelately and you'll watch that fragile trend take a sharp sharp nosedive...

 

[OKTexas]

gay people have families.

that is why the sentiments are changing in this country .

why do you hate gay people?

Wrong, they are just mentally ill men and women. Doesn't matter if you're born with the illness or acquire it, treatment is needed, not an enabling society.

 

[JakeStarkey]

And Sil, it's five babies, four pregnancies. My partner and I have two children from a known sperm donor. I later was a gestational surrogate, twice, for a gay male couple. I did give birth to twins with the final pregnancy, a boy and a girl...with different fathers.

I clearly remember you saying you had twins and gave one of them over to a gay male couple. That's the part that stuck in my mind anyway. Thanks for the correction on the number. However, were the men entitled to just one half of that gestation or both twins? Why would you separate twins at birth and give only half of the gestation up that you contracted out to these gay men and... Did these specific gay men donate the sperm for your other pregnancies? Was there a dollar amount placed on the donation? What were the arrangments legally. Posters here would be very curious to know. I know I am.

Tell Sil to shut up and stop the implied libel.

And, no, Sil, you have no right to know.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Nonsense to Sil’s opinion about “A statement on the ASA Amicus Brief to the 10th district court of appeals and it's era of turmoil when temporal politics was vying at the same time to overcome hard science...at the same time a gay cabal was overtaking the APA...” is very clear that hard science won out, not Sil’s wannabee beliefs.

"Ethics at the cost of research" means that Sil’s folks think their beliefs outweigh the research.

Any “amicus brief to the US Supreme Court on whether or not the Harvey Milk cult” will be summarily, and rightfully, dismissed, because there is no basis for such a brief.

It is only opinion that “Kids need and yearn for both a mom and dad.”
The hetero-fascists have failed in manufacturing consent. “They haven't won in the arena of ideas”

The mental illness of hetero—fascism of some on this Board is very obvious.

The manufacturing of consent for hetero-fascism is failing.

 

[bodecea]

The reason the gay civil rights movement seems to be moving so fast is because of families...and friends and co-workers...they are driving equality because we came out to them. It's really hard to look a loved one in the face and say"you don't deserve the same rights I have".

It's coming out to our families that is driving this movement.

VP Cheney is an example of that process happening. Sad to see his one daughter try to sell out the other daughter for RW political points tho.