Maybe it is the scary looking gun

[Skull Pilot]

What “sport” are they used for ?

You gun nerds failed to answer .

Sport.....3 gun competitions.....in particular, I could care less about sport, they are a self defense rifle.....

So the sport thing is BS . Let's be honest . The self defense is also BS. Way better options for that.

Target shooting
Match shooting
Small game hunting

All s in the category of sporting

And a semiautomatic rifle can be a very good choice for self defense but you have never even held a rifle so you wouldn't know

 

[Skull Pilot]

Your assertion is wrong

The AR frame is not the most popular rifle in the country because of the way it looks

It is the most popular rife frame in the country because it is light, easy to handle, infinitely customizeable accurate and just plain fun to shoot.

I entered first grade in the autumn of 1963. I graduated high school in 1975, got my degree in 1979. There were no school shootings during my matriculation.

Three questions:

When was the AR-15 introduced to the American consumer market?

When did the plague of current mass shootings begin?

Can any correlation be drawn between those two events?

There are 8 million AR-15 civilian rifles, some say even more......and recently, 6 have been used...about that anyway...for mass shootings...while the other 8 million in private hands were not used to commit any crime....

We all know that more crimes are committed that just the 6 mass shootings as you claim.

about 2% of all murders are committed with rifles of any kind that means an even smaller percentage are killed with the black one that you are so scared of

And the black one owns the worst mass killings.

Easy fix make all rifles gray, or red, or camo or pink or green or blue I mean your entire argument is based on how the AR 15 looks right?

 

[francoHFW]

what a bunch legalese gobbledygook. People have never been allowed to have machine guns in my lifetime 66 years except in very very limited areas.

You are a complete moron. We had the right to automatics without restriction up until 1934. Then, we had the right to automatics under a special tax, which we STILL HAVE!!!! We just can't buy any new automatics manufactured after May 1986.

You are ignorant on the topic of guns, their operation, and their laws. GET THE FUCK OUT OF THIS DEBATE. YOU SUCK!!!

Wrong again, s*** head.

what a bunch legalese gobbledygook. People have never been allowed to have machine guns in my lifetime 66 years except in very very limited areas.

You are a complete moron. We had the right to automatics without restriction up until 1934. Then, we had the right to automatics under a special tax, which we STILL HAVE!!!! We just can't buy any new automatics manufactured after May 1986.

You are ignorant on the topic of guns, their operation, and their laws. GET THE FUCK OUT OF THIS DEBATE. YOU SUCK!!!

It's a hell of a lot more complicated than that, brainwashed functional moron.

 

[Skull Pilot]

about 2% of all murders are committed with rifles of any kind that means an even smaller percentage are killed with the black one that you are so scared of

And the black one owns the worst mass killings.

again so what?

Ban the single most popular rifle in the country and then the second most popular rifle will be used nothing will change as long as we just let anyone walk willy nilly into schools

Ban high capacity magazines.

The FL shooter used 10 round magazines

Hardly high capacity

Which one? They have lots of shootings. Link?

moron the last one

Florida school shooter’s AR-15 may have jammed, saving lives, report says

 

[Skull Pilot]

what a bunch legalese gobbledygook. People have never been allowed to have machine guns in my lifetime 66 years except in very very limited areas.

You are a complete moron. We had the right to automatics without restriction up until 1934. Then, we had the right to automatics under a special tax, which we STILL HAVE!!!! We just can't buy any new automatics manufactured after May 1986.

You are ignorant on the topic of guns, their operation, and their laws. GET THE FUCK OUT OF THIS DEBATE. YOU SUCK!!!

Wrong again, s*** head.

what a bunch legalese gobbledygook. People have never been allowed to have machine guns in my lifetime 66 years except in very very limited areas.

You are a complete moron. We had the right to automatics without restriction up until 1934. Then, we had the right to automatics under a special tax, which we STILL HAVE!!!! We just can't buy any new automatics manufactured after May 1986.

You are ignorant on the topic of guns, their operation, and their laws. GET THE FUCK OUT OF THIS DEBATE. YOU SUCK!!!

It's a hell of a lot more complicated than that, brainwashed functional moron.

are you talking to your reflection again?

 

[Nosmo King]

I'm afraid you're missing the point.

I'm not missing the point, since your argument is based on false premise. You're afraid for no reason.

My argument is that perhaps the very styling of the gun is what makes it more attractive as a weapon with which to commit a gun massacre.

What "styling of the gun" you're referring to? Different shootings were done with different guns. Get your facts straight first, since most shootings were done with semi auto handguns.

For example, Columbine shooting was done with Savage-Springfield pump action shotgun, Hi Point 995 carbine, Stevens 311D double-barreled sawed-off shotgun, and TEC-9 SA handgun.
Fort Hood shooting was done with FN Five-Seven and Smith & Wesson revolver .357 magnum.
Virginia Tech was done with Walther P22 SA handgun, .22 caliber, and Glock 19 SA handgun, 9 mm.

But, but, but... AR-15!!!!!!! ReeeEEE....

If other weapons are just as effective in terms of rate of fire and lethality of round trajectory, why aren't those weapons used as often as the military style weapons?

Other weapons are just as effective, as I sampled above.

Also, I'd like you to refer the shooting where military style weapons were used. I heard of only one, and it was the biggest massacre in US history. Waco, Texas, military style weapons were used by the US government.

If cultural aspects like video games and movies can bear blame, why not cultural aspects like the style of the weapon itself?

I don't see a reason why video games should bear blame more than bad parenting, or more than indoctrination is government schools.

It seems that there are unfortunate people much more interested in protecting guns than protecting the public against lunatic gunmen.

Nobody is protecting guns. What is see is protecting of constitutional rights.

Now, since I answered your questions, you answer mine.

If a police officer shoot an unarmed man, do you blame an officer or a gun?

Let us give the benefit of the doubt to the police officer and assume he was not mentally deranged at the time of the shooting. Further, let us assume the situation the policeman faced was chock full of high tension. And let us further assume that the officer used a gun issued by the department. So, given those assumptions, let us blame the cop.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Maybe we can't see the forest for the trees.

Maybe one of the unfortunate reasons "assault style weapons" are used in many gun violence circumstances is the style. If video games and movies can be blamed for gun violence, why not the 'style' of weaponry? Are violent criminals drawn to the menacing look of these weapons more than the technical aspects of firing systems and round speed and lethality of sporting style weapons? Could similar cultural aspects attract those who watch violent movies and play violent video games to violent looking weapons?

Is it just cooler to carry a gun with a long magazine projecting from it? A gun that's all black and blinded up with military styling?

Gun lovers would agree that other sporting style weapons are just as, or more, deadly? Yet we don't see that many mass shootings committed with those sporting style weapons. If they are just as effective for self defense and a military style weapon, why have the military style weapon around?

As gun violence increased, could a corollary be seen in the increase of popularity of military style weapons, the "scary looking" guns?

I may be wrong, but I never heard this point of view proffered.

Maybe one of the unfortunate reasons "assault style weapons" are used in many gun violence circumstances is the style.

nope it is because it has been highly over rated by anti gun nutz

the ar is really nothing more then a sooped up 22

sure it can pump out the rounds but then again any semi auto can

most of my rifles are far more deadly then the ar

You're missing the point. If non military style guns are just as, if not more effective, why are the ARs so prevalent?

You're missing a point. AR is not military style gun. It just looks like it is.

Now that we cleared that up, if there are guns just as, if not more effective, why gun grabbers are pursuing to ban ARs? Shouldn't they go after those more effective first?

after all these days the leftist poster remains willfully ignorant on ars

 

[2aguy]

I would have rather the coach have that deputy's gun.

Would still be many dead. When was last school shooting in the U.K.?

would have save many of the lives that ended up dead. that's on you then.

When was the last school shooting in the U.K.? No dead is better.

Lets ship some of our Negroes from the Democrat controlled shitholes over to the UK. They are the ones that do most of the shootings in the US every year. The ones that are prevented from getting firearms by the same basic State and local anti gun regulations like they have in the UK. Let us then see how their stats will change.

Our school shooters all white...

You mean except for the worst school shooting......Virginia Tech....an asian guy...right? 32 people murdered with 2 pistols.

 

[2aguy]

Would still be many dead. When was last school shooting in the U.K.?

would have save many of the lives that ended up dead. that's on you then.

When was the last school shooting in the U.K.? No dead is better.

22 March 2017 2017 Westminster attack London, England 6 49 A vehicle and knife attack. Islamist terror attack.
22 May 2017 Manchester Arena Bombing Manchester, England 23 400+ Islamist terror attack/suicide attack.[11]
3 June 2017 June 2017 London Bridge attack London, England 8 48 Islamist terror/vehicle and knife attack.[12]

Not school shootings...

Never seemed to be an issue in GB. two incidents 1987 and in 1996.

"Members of the public may own sporting rifles and shotguns, subject to licensing, but handguns were effectively banned after the Dunblane school massacre in 1996 with the exception of Northern Ireland. Dunblane was the UK's first and only school shooting. There has been one spree killing since Dunblane, in June 2010 involving a shotgun and a .22 caliber rifle, both legally-held. Prior to Dunblane though there has only been one mass shooting carried out by a civilian in the entire history of Great Britain, which took place in Hungerford on 19 August 1987.[7]"

Wasn't an issue here in the past. Gun free zones is new, offers up a killing field.

Britain almost had 2 recently....a 19 year old with a glock pistol and an elementary school student with a shotgun...the 19 year old was caught when he posted his planned attack on his former university on social media, and the elementary student changed his mind and called the police on himself...

Dumb luck saved them from having 2 in 2 years, after the ban and confiscation....

 

[2aguy]

bombs fail?

3 families in austin would like to disagree with you lately.

also - the parkland high school shooter ditched his AR. why? it failed him so he ran out with the rest of the kids.

17 dead. Bombs fail often.

with an armed sheriffs deputy standing behind a tree.

Sure killed the good guy with a gun theory.

I would have rather the coach have that deputy's gun.

Would still be many dead. When was last school shooting in the U.K.?

They almost had 2..

Dumb luck stopped the first two...then explain how the guy who walked into the nursery with a gun was stopped by British gun control laws? Dumb luck in 3 events doesn't show that Britain's gun confiscation is working...

British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack



Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.

Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.

As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.

According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.

Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.

The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.

In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”

He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.

====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'


15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.

=======




'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside

Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.

Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.

The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.

He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.

 

[2aguy]

I would have rather the coach have that deputy's gun.

Would still be many dead. When was last school shooting in the U.K.?

would have save many of the lives that ended up dead. that's on you then.

When was the last school shooting in the U.K.? No dead is better.

did you look it up?

When was the last school shooting in the U.K.? No dead is better.

Almost 3.......and none of the 3 was stopped by their gun control laws or their gun confiscation....

British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack



Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.

Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.

As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.

According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.

Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.

The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.

In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”

He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.

====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'


15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.

=======




'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside

Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.

Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.

The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.

He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.

 

[Flash]

Would still be many dead. When was last school shooting in the U.K.?

would have save many of the lives that ended up dead. that's on you then.

When was the last school shooting in the U.K.? No dead is better.

Lets ship some of our Negroes from the Democrat controlled shitholes over to the UK. They are the ones that do most of the shootings in the US every year. The ones that are prevented from getting firearms by the same basic State and local anti gun regulations like they have in the UK. Let us then see how their stats will change.

Our school shooters all white...

You mean except for the worst school shooting......Virginia Tech....an asian guy...right? 32 people murdered with 2 pistols.

These Moon Bats have no concept of reality.

Didn't Black guys shoot up a church and the Navy facility in DC?

Then we have the Muslim terrorists in Florida and California. Not exactly your average white boys.

Of course we all know the greatest number of gun crimes in the US daily in the big city shitholes mostly done by minorities.

 

[2aguy]

Would still be many dead. When was last school shooting in the U.K.?

would have save many of the lives that ended up dead. that's on you then.

When was the last school shooting in the U.K.? No dead is better.

22 March 2017 2017 Westminster attack London, England 6 49 A vehicle and knife attack. Islamist terror attack.
22 May 2017 Manchester Arena Bombing Manchester, England 23 400+ Islamist terror attack/suicide attack.[11]
3 June 2017 June 2017 London Bridge attack London, England 8 48 Islamist terror/vehicle and knife attack.[12]

Not school shootings...

Never seemed to be an issue in GB. two incidents 1987 and in 1996.

"Members of the public may own sporting rifles and shotguns, subject to licensing, but handguns were effectively banned after the Dunblane school massacre in 1996 with the exception of Northern Ireland. Dunblane was the UK's first and only school shooting. There has been one spree killing since Dunblane, in June 2010 involving a shotgun and a .22 caliber rifle, both legally-held. Prior to Dunblane though there has only been one mass shooting carried out by a civilian in the entire history of Great Britain, which took place in Hungerford on 19 August 1987.[7]"

Wasn't an issue here in the past. Gun free zones is new, offers up a killing field.

Then you had these 3....the first two were actual attempted school shootings, stopped by dumb luck, the last one was a guy walking into a nursery school with a gun...he was looking for another guy to shoot, but none of the British gun control laws stopped him from murdering those children...

British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack



Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.

Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.

As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.

According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.

Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.

The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.

In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”

He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.

====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'


15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.

=======




'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside

Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.

Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.

The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.

He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.

 

[2aguy]

would have save many of the lives that ended up dead. that's on you then.

When was the last school shooting in the U.K.? No dead is better.

Lets ship some of our Negroes from the Democrat controlled shitholes over to the UK. They are the ones that do most of the shootings in the US every year. The ones that are prevented from getting firearms by the same basic State and local anti gun regulations like they have in the UK. Let us then see how their stats will change.

Our school shooters all white...

You mean except for the worst school shooting......Virginia Tech....an asian guy...right? 32 people murdered with 2 pistols.

These Moon Bats have no concept of reality.

Didn't Black guys shoot up a church and the Navy facility in DC?

Then we have the Muslim terrorists in Florida and California. Not exactly your average white boys.

Of course we all know the greatest number of gun crimes in the US daily in the big city shitholes mostly done by minorities.

The Long Island Train Shooter, the San Bernadino muslim shooters, the Fort hood muslim shooter, the D.C. snipers, Virginia Tech, the Black Lives matter texas police shooter.......

 

[2aguy]

Mental illness plus scary styled super soldier military weapons equal insane mass shootings.

The AR-15 civilian rifle is not a military rifle and has never been a military rifle....it is no different in the way it functions from the other 15 million semi auto rifles in private hands....

 

[2aguy]

Says the gun dealer LOL. Of course it would. Semi automatics should have a 1 second delay between shots...

We should have full autos like we did before 1986, back before all these mass shootings. The ban CAUSED more violence, for some reason.


Full repeal and open carry of all arms seems to be the only REAL alternative. Chicken-shit pussies can move to France.

When the hell did people have automatics? link? And no you can't move to France unless you are a multi-millionaire or marry a French person. So we want to fix your mess of a GOP NRA America. Great job a holes and silly Dupes.

You keep attacking the NRA...the NRA supports the FIX NICS act....the democrats oppose it.

You keep attacking the NRA...the NRA supports armed security and armed staff in the schools, the democrats oppose it.

The NRA teaches fun safety to millions of children...the democrats fight teaching gun safety to kids.

The NRA supports keeping violent gun offenders in prison, the democrats let violent gun offenders out of jail and pass laws letting them out early.

The NRA doesn't support the PROMISE PROGRAM, of obama, which allowed the shooter to get the gun...the democrats created and support the Promise program...which allowed the shooter to get his gun...

Since those are the facts, the truth and the reality.....

Of the two groups...the democrats are the ones supporting violent murder, not the NRA...

 

[2aguy]

They sure kill a lot of people really fast when a crazy gets one.

Because they are scary looking?

Because they are semi auto with high capacity magazines.

No...neither one has any bearing on casualty rates in mass shootings...you know this, you still post this crap, you are a troll...

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1525107116674926

Large-Capacity Magazines and the Casualty Counts in Mass Shootings: The Plausibility of Linkages by Gary Kleck :: SSRN

Do bans on large-capacity magazines (LCMs) for semiautomatic firearms have significant potential for reducing the number of deaths and injuries in mass shootings?
The most common rationale for an effect of LCM use is that they allow mass killers to fire many rounds without reloading.
LCMs are used is less than 1/3 of 1% of mass shootings.
News accounts of 23 shootings in which more than six people were killed or wounded and LCMs were used, occurring in the U.S. in 1994-2013, were examined.
There was only one incident in which the shooter may have been stopped by bystander intervention when he tried to reload.
In all of these 23 incidents the shooter possessed either multiple guns or multiple magazines, meaning that the shooter, even if denied LCMs, could have continued firing without significant interruption by either switching loaded guns or by changing smaller loaded magazines with only a 2-4 second delay for each magazine change.
Finally, the data indicate that mass shooters maintain slow enough rates of fire such that the time needed to reload would not increase the time between shots and thus the time available for prospective victims to escape.

--------

We did not employ the oft-used definition of “mass murder” as a homicide in which four or more victims were killed, because most of these involve just four to six victims (Duwe 2007), which could therefore have involved as few as six rounds fired, a number that shooters using even ordinary revolvers are capable of firing without reloading.

LCMs obviously cannot help shooters who fire no more rounds than could be fired without LCMs, so the inclusion of “nonaffectable” cases with only four to six victims would dilute the sample, reducing the percent of sample incidents in which an LCM might have affected the number of casualties.

Further, had we studied only homicides with four or more dead victims, drawn from the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Reports, we would have missed cases in which huge numbers of people were shot, and huge numbers of rounds were fired, but three or fewer of the victims died.


For example, in one widely publicized shooting carried out in Los Angeles on February 28, 1997, two bank robbers shot a total of 18 people - surely a mass shooting by any reasonable standard (Table 1).

Yet, because none of the people they shot died, this incident would not qualify as a mass murder (or even murder of any kind).

Exclusion of such incidents would bias the sample against the proposition that LCM use increases the number of victims by excluding incidents with large numbers of victims. We also excluded shootings in which more than six persons were shot over the entire course of the incident but shootings occurred in multiple locations with no more than six people shot in any one of the locations, and substantial periods of time intervened between episodes of shooting. An example is the series of killings committed by Rodrick Dantzler on July 7, 2011.

Once eligible incidents were identified, we searched through news accounts for details related to whether the use of LCMs could have influenced the casualty counts.

Specifically, we searched for

(1) the number of magazines in the shooter’s immediate possession,

(2) the capacity of the largest magazine,

(3) the number of guns in the shooter’s immediate possession during the incident,

(4) the types of guns possessed,

(5) whether the shooter reloaded during the incident,

(6) the number of rounds fired,

(7) the duration of the shooting from the first shot fired to the last, and (8) whether anyone intervened to stop the shooter.

Findings How Many Mass Shootings were Committed Using LCMs?

We identified 23 total incidents in which more than six people were shot at a single time and place in the U.S. from 1994 through 2013 and that were known to involve use of any magazines with capacities over ten rounds.


Table 1 summarizes key details of the LCMinvolved mass shootings relevant to the issues addressed in this paper.

(Table 1 about here) What fraction of all mass shootings involve LCMs?

There is no comprehensive listing of all mass shootings available for the entire 1994-2013 period, but the most extensive one currently available is at the Shootingtracker.com website, which only began its coverage in 2013.

-----

How Often Have Bystanders Intervened While a Mass Shooter Was Trying to Reload?

First, we consider the issue of how many times people have disrupted a mass shooting while the shooter was trying to load a detachable magazine into a semiautomatic gun.

Note that 16 it is irrelevant whether interveners have stopped a shooter while trying to reload some other type of gun, using other kinds of magazines, since we are addressing the potential significance of restrictions on the capacity of detachable magazines which are used only with semiautomatic firearms.

Thus, bystander intervention directed at shooters using other types of guns that take much longer to reload than a semiautomatic gun using detachable magazines could not provide any guidance as to the likelihood of bystander intervention when the shooter was using a semiautomatic gun equipped with detachable magazines that can be reloaded very quickly.

Prospective interveners would presumably be more likely to tackle a shooter who took a long time to reload than one who took only 2-4 seconds to do so.

Likewise, bystander interventions that occurred at a time when the shooter was not reloading (e.g., when he was struggling with a defective gun or magazine) are irrelevant, since that kind of intervention could occur regardless of what kinds of magazines or firearms the shooter was using.


It is the need to reload detachable magazines sooner and more often that differentiates shooters using smaller detachable magazines from those using larger ones.

For the period 1994-2013 inclusive, we identified three mass shooting incidents in which it was claimed that interveners disrupted the shooting by tackling the shooter while he was trying to reload.

In only one of the three cases, however, did interveners actually tackle the shooter while he may have been reloading a semiautomatic firearm.

In one of the incidents, the weapon in question was a shotgun that had to be reloaded by inserting one shotshell at a time into the weapon (Knoxville News Sentinel “Takedown of Alleged Shooter Recounted” July 29, 2008, regarding a shooting in Knoxville, TN on July 27, 2008), and so the incident is irrelevant to the effects of detachable LCMs.


In another incident, occurring in Springfield, Oregon on May 21, 1998, the shooter, Kip Kinkel, was using a semiautomatic gun, and he was tackled by bystanders, but not while he was reloading.

After exhausting the ammunition in one gun, the shooter started 17 firing another loaded gun, one of three firearms he had with him.

The first intervener was shot in the hand in the course of wresting this still-loaded gun away from the shooter (The (Portland) Oregonian, May 23, 1998).


The final case occurred in Tucson, AZ on January 8, 2011.

This is the shooting in which Jared Loughner attempted to assassinate Representative Gabrielle Giffords.

The shooter was using a semiautomatic firearm and was tackled by bystanders, purportedly while trying to reload a detachable magazine.

Even in this case, however, there were important uncertainties.

According to one news account, one bystander “grabbed a full magazine” that the shooter dropped, and two others helped subdue him (Associated Press, January 9, 2011).

It is not, however, clear whether this bystander intervention was facilitated because

(1) the shooter was reloading, or because

(2) the shooter stopping firing when his gun or magazine failed to function properly.

Eyewitness testimony, including that of the interveners, was inconsistent as to exactly why or how the intervention transpired in Giffords shooting.

One intervener insisted that he was sure the shooter had exhausted the ammunition in the first magazine (and thus was about to reload) because he saw the gun’s slide locked back – a condition he believed could only occur with this particular firearm after the last round is fired.

In fact, this can also happen when the guns jams, i.e. fails to chamber the next round (Salzgeber 2014; Morrill 2014).

Complicating matters further, the New York Times reported that the spring on the second magazine was broken, presumably rendering it incapable of functioning.

Their story’s headline and text characterized this mechanical failure as “perhaps the only fortunate event of the day” (New York Times “A Single, Terrifying Moment: Shots, Scuffle, Some Luck,” January 10, 2011, p. A1)

. If the New York Times account was accurate, the shooter would not have been able to continue shooting with that magazine even if no one had stopped him from loading it into his gun.

Detachable magazines of any size can malfunction, which would at least temporarily stop a prospective mass shooter from firing, and thereby provide an opportunity for bystanders to stop the shooter.
It is possible that the bystander intervention in the Tucson case could have occurred regardless of what size magazines the shooter possessed, since a shooter struggling with a defective small-capacity magazine would be just as vulnerable to disruption as one struggling with a defective large-capacity magazine. Thus, it remains unclear whether the shooter was reloading when the bystanders tackled him.
-----
The offenders in LCM-involved mass shootings were also known to have reloaded during 14 of the 23 (61%) incidents with magazine holding over 10 rounds.

The shooters were known to have not reloaded in another two of these 20 incidents and it could not be determined if they reloaded in the remaining seven incidents.

Thus, even if the shooters had been denied LCMs, we know that most of them definitely would have been able to reload smaller detachable magazines without interference from bystanders since they in fact did change magazines.

The fact that this percentage is less than 100% should not, however, be interpreted to mean that the shooters were unable to reload in the other nine incidents.

It is possible that the shooters could also have reloaded in many of these nine shootings, but chose not to do so, or did not need to do so in order to fire all the rounds they wanted to fire. This is consistent with the fact that there has been at most only one mass shootings in twenty years in which reloading a semiautomatic firearm might have been blocked by bystanders intervening and thereby stopping the shooter from doing all the shooting he wanted to do. All we know is that in two incidents the shooter did not reload, and news accounts of seven other incidents did not mention whether the offender reloaded.

----

For example, a story in the Hartford Courant about the Sandy Hook elementary school killings in 2012 was headlined “Shooter Paused, and Six Escaped,” the text asserting that as many as six children may have survived because the shooter paused to reload (December 23, 2012). ''

The author of the story, however, went on to concede that this was just a speculation by an unnamed source, and that it was also possible that some children simply escaped when the killer was shooting other children.

There was no reliable evidence that the pauses were due to the shooter reloading, rather than his guns jamming or the shooter simply choosing to pause his shooting while his gun was still loaded.

The plausibility of the “victims escape” rationale depends on the average rates of fire that shooters in mass shootings typically maintain.

If they fire very fast, the 2-4 seconds it takes to change box-type detachable magazines could produce a slowing of the rate of fire that the shooters otherwise would have maintained without the magazine changes, increasing the average time between rounds fired and potentially allowing more victims to escape during the betweenshot intervals.

On the other hand, if mass shooters fire their guns with the average interval between shots lasting more than 2-4 seconds, the pauses due to additional magazine changes would be no longer than the pauses the shooter typically took between shots even when not reloading.

In that case, there would be no more opportunity for potential victims to escape than there would have been without the additional magazine changes

-----

In sum, in nearly all LCM-involved mass shootings, the time it takes to reload a detachable magazine is no greater than the average time between shots that the shooter takes anyway when not reloading.

Consequently, there is no affirmative evidence that reloading detachable magazines slows mass shooters’ rates of fire, and thus no affirmative evidence that the number of victims who could escape the killers due to additional pauses in the shooting is increased by the shooter’s need to change magazines.

 

[2aguy]

When the hell did people have automatics? link?

Firearm Owners Protection Act - Wikipedia

See, this is why ignorant people should get the fuck out of the gun debate. You don't know what the fuck you are talking about. Let us make the decisions.

You have and we have a mass shooting problem. Countries with strong gun control dont have a mass shooting problem...

No...we don't have a mass shooting problem....those countries in Europe and Australia have public shootings with with fully automatic rifles instead of AR-15s.

 

[2aguy]

No to say that the AR 15 that shoots a 5.56 mm cartridge is more deadly than any other rifle that shoots the same cartridge is stupid

OK, so if the ability to shoot as fast as you can pull the trigger with a large capacity magazine is as good as a single shot that shoots the same caliper.

You people are sooooooooooooooo smart.

then what is your answer?

limit the mag to 10 rounds? make it a fixed mag that can't be swapped out?

great. they have speed loaders that will reload the fixed mag faster than swapping the mag to begin with.

and it's caliber unless you're working on your brakes. it's kinda a good idea to be correct when insulting peoples intelligence.

Ban the semi-automatic rifle that accepts large magazines. Like was done before but your party refused to renew it - killing all those children. NRA money is so wonderful.

Ban large magazibes

There has never been a ban on semiautomatic weapons there has only been a ban on one specific type of semiautomatic weapon and it was allowed to expire because it did nothing to lower the crime or the murder rates

In fact during that ban the wackos from Columbine had no trouble shooting up their school did they?

And FYI the FL wack job was using 10 round magazines hardly high capacity

And those previously banned guns have been used in our worst mass shootings.

No....3 were used out of 8 million....that isn't a problem.....

The problem....over 90% of mass shootings are in gun free zones.....that is more of a problem since we know these mass shooters target gun free zones.

 

[2aguy]

They sure kill a lot of people really fast when a crazy gets one.

Because they are scary looking?

Because they are semi auto with high capacity magazines.

yes average everyday commonplace semiautomatic rifles that have been available in the civilian market for over 100 years and FYI 20 and 30 round magazines are standard capacity not high capacity

They are used for mass killing.

A rental truck murdered 86 people....more people in 5 minutes than in any of our mass shootings....rental trucks are deadlier than guns in mass shootings...