MIT professor: global warming is a ‘religion’

[Toddsterpatriot]

The only thing that matters is the infrastructure of our civilization. Our farms, cities, population centers, shore homes, etc.

We located all of that stuff based on climate (most importantly water availability) and sea level.

AGW causes ice melt which raises sea level. It also changes the distribution of precipitation. In other words, weather.

The IPCC is charged with the science of predicting both of those variables as a function of atmospheric green house gas concentration.

They are certain that increased GHG concentrations warm the climate. They do not have yet the ability to make long term weather predictions especially in a changing, less stable climate.

They are certain that if dumping new CO2 in the atmosphere stopped tomorrow the decline in concentration would be very slow.

As an example of the complexity: We know we are losing ice and snow mass today, every year. How many decades would that continue for if the climate warmed no more? What would sea level be at that point? What kind of urban relocation or diking would be required when and where from that sea level increase to prevent what cost storm damage?

Science is the only avenue open for making those predictions and we have a very long way to go.

But, we know fossil fuel supply is limited so sustainable energy is a requirement no matter AGW.

Bottom line. What rate of change to sustainable energy is the lowest total cost?

For sure it is not ignoring the problem and future.

AGW causes ice melt which raises sea level. It also changes the distribution of precipitation. In other words, weather.

So would natural GW.

The IPCC is charged with the science of predicting both of those variables as a function of atmospheric green house gas concentration.

And yet the politicians are in charge.

They are certain that increased GHG concentrations warm the climate.

Assume the US doesn't spend the tens of trillions you wish, what are CO2 levels in 2080?
Assume we do, what are CO2 levels in 2080?

But, we know fossil fuel supply is limited

How many years usage do we have left?

What rate of change to sustainable energy is the lowest total cost?

The rate the private market determines, without government mandates and tens of trillions in politically motivated spending.

You seem not to understand that the difference between natural and anthropogenic GW is we control what we do. To whatever degree stopping causing the problem is cost effective, we can do it.

Whatever can be known about what we're facing will come from the IPCC, not from Rush or Glenn Beck or the boobs and boobies on Fox. Whatever we do will need years to accomplish so whatever insight or foresight we can have is worth a lot.

You also are bat blind about business. Corporations optimise only each company. Their one rule is make more money regardless of the cost to others. There is not the slightest chance in hell that thousands of companies optimizing themselves will fall into an optimized energy system.

The government has a role, private investors have a role, companies have a role, entrepreneurs have a role, the International community has a role.

No matter what Rush tells you.

You seem not to understand that the difference between natural and anthropogenic GW is we control what we do.

Great. Since 1900, what % of the rise was us and how much was natural?
Be as precise as you can.

To whatever degree stopping causing the problem is cost effective, we can do it.

Assume the US doesn't spend the tens of trillions you wish, what are CO2 levels in 2080?
Assume we do, what are CO2 levels in 2080?

Whatever can be known about what we're facing will come from the IPCC

The scientists who do the work, the scientists who are ignored, or the politicians who decide what to include in the report?

not from Rush or Glenn Beck or the boobs and boobies on Fox.

And not from Al Gore, Rachel Maddow, Ed Schultz or the boobs on NBC, CBS and CNN.

There is not the slightest chance in hell that thousands of companies optimizing themselves will fall into an optimized energy system.

Thousands of companies using the ever scarcer (LOL!) fossil fuels will do a better job than the government throwing billions of dollars at cronies.

I must have missed it when you mentioned how many years of fossil fuels remain.

 

[PMZ]

I see now.

Your recommendations are to get rid of the IPCC and government. Let big oil do what they want. Wait until fossil fuels are gone or we are, whichever comes first.

No wonder conservatives are being fired from government in droves.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I see now.

Your recommendations are to get rid of the IPCC and government. Let big oil do what they want. Wait until fossil fuels are gone or we are, whichever comes first.

No wonder conservatives are being fired from government in droves.

Your recommendations are to get rid of the IPCC and government.

Those are my recommendations? Where did you read that?

Wait until fossil fuels are gone

You keep saying that but you never say when.
When will they be gone?

Try to put your feelings aside and think. For once.

 

[PMZ]

I'm sure that conversations like today's make the problem clear to lots more people. It's not just about climate change. It's about working towards a better future. The conservative singular focus on doing nothing and hoping for the past to return would be the end of mankind's progress as we've known it. We've always had conservatives but except for rare years like the McCarthy era, and the Confederacy, we haven't had to deal with anti-American extremists. Now we do.

The power of media persuasion has been growing for decades. We thought that all that was at risk from that was to make us more materialistic. That was offset however by the ability to have what some consider a higher standard of living.

But, opening Pandora's box had ramifications beyond materialism. Now democracy is at risk as media conservatives have been led to long for the return of the wealthy white male run plutocracy our founders desired.

Congress has been rendered impotent. Businesses have forgotten how to grow. The concept of the same civil rights for everyone is being questioned yet again. The Bush policies have us $17T in debt instead of debt free as the CBO anticipated at the end of the Clinton era. All on top of the conservative war on government, science and knowledge and education. And the idea that we ignore climate change and dwindling fossil fuels and just suffer the consequences because we aren't, in their view, smart enough to solve problems.

These are fundamental changes to the fabric of America. We can hope that taking back America that began in 2008 will continue to grow as it has. That our democracy will be stronger than the pull of evangelical media propagandists chipping away at government.

America has always risen to every challenge. Mostly external threats. Now we have to rise to internal threat. And we can.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I'm sure that conversations like today's make the problem clear to lots more people. It's not just about climate change. It's about working towards a better future. The conservative singular focus on doing nothing and hoping for the past to return would be the end of mankind's progress as we've known it. We've always had conservatives but except for rare years like the McCarthy era, and the Confederacy, we haven't had to deal with anti-American extremists. Now we do.

The power of media persuasion has been growing for decades. We thought that all that was at risk from that was to make us more materialistic. That was offset however by the ability to have what some consider a higher standard of living.

But, opening Pandora's box had ramifications beyond materialism. Now democracy is at risk as media conservatives have been led to long for the return of the wealthy white male run plutocracy our founders desired.

Congress has been rendered impotent. Businesses have forgotten how to grow. The concept of the same civil rights for everyone is being questioned yet again. The Bush policies have us $17T in debt instead of debt free as the CBO anticipated at the end of the Clinton era. All on top of the conservative war on government, science and knowledge and education. And the idea that we ignore climate change and dwindling fossil fuels and just suffer the consequences because we aren't, in their view, smart enough to solve problems.

These are fundamental changes to the fabric of America. We can hope that taking back America that began in 2008 will continue to grow as it has. That our democracy will be stronger than the pull of evangelical media propagandists chipping away at government.

America has always risen to every challenge. Mostly external threats. Now we have to rise to internal threat. And we can.

It's not just about climate change. It's about working towards a better future.

Excellent! You want to spend tens of trillions of dollars, I want to spend zero.

How much better is your future?
Tell me how much lower CO2 will be in your better future, how many parts per million reduction do we get for the tens of trillions?
Show me your better future. Numbers only, not your feelings.

 

[PMZ]

I see now.

Your recommendations are to get rid of the IPCC and government. Let big oil do what they want. Wait until fossil fuels are gone or we are, whichever comes first.

No wonder conservatives are being fired from government in droves.

Your recommendations are to get rid of the IPCC and government.

Those are my recommendations? Where did you read that?

Wait until fossil fuels are gone

You keep saying that but you never say when.
When will they be gone?

Try to put your feelings aside and think. For once.

Science isn't about feelings, it's about facts. Establishing the facts about our energy and climate future is what the IPCC was established to do. Everything that I've posted has been in support of the IPCC doing it's job, and using that insight to find the least cost path to a sustainable future.

Everything you've posted is about sticking our collective heads in the nearest dark place and hoping for a happy ending. That's thinking with your feelings.

 

[PMZ]

I'm sure that conversations like today's make the problem clear to lots more people. It's not just about climate change. It's about working towards a better future. The conservative singular focus on doing nothing and hoping for the past to return would be the end of mankind's progress as we've known it. We've always had conservatives but except for rare years like the McCarthy era, and the Confederacy, we haven't had to deal with anti-American extremists. Now we do.

The power of media persuasion has been growing for decades. We thought that all that was at risk from that was to make us more materialistic. That was offset however by the ability to have what some consider a higher standard of living.

But, opening Pandora's box had ramifications beyond materialism. Now democracy is at risk as media conservatives have been led to long for the return of the wealthy white male run plutocracy our founders desired.

Congress has been rendered impotent. Businesses have forgotten how to grow. The concept of the same civil rights for everyone is being questioned yet again. The Bush policies have us $17T in debt instead of debt free as the CBO anticipated at the end of the Clinton era. All on top of the conservative war on government, science and knowledge and education. And the idea that we ignore climate change and dwindling fossil fuels and just suffer the consequences because we aren't, in their view, smart enough to solve problems.

These are fundamental changes to the fabric of America. We can hope that taking back America that began in 2008 will continue to grow as it has. That our democracy will be stronger than the pull of evangelical media propagandists chipping away at government.

America has always risen to every challenge. Mostly external threats. Now we have to rise to internal threat. And we can.

It's not just about climate change. It's about working towards a better future.

Excellent! You want to spend tens of trillions of dollars, I want to spend zero.

How much better is your future?
Tell me how much lower CO2 will be in your better future, how many parts per million reduction do we get for the tens of trillions?
Show me your better future. Numbers only, not your feelings.

"Excellent! You want to spend tens of trillions of dollars, I want to spend zero."

Describe for us this no cost alternative.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I'm sure that conversations like today's make the problem clear to lots more people. It's not just about climate change. It's about working towards a better future. The conservative singular focus on doing nothing and hoping for the past to return would be the end of mankind's progress as we've known it. We've always had conservatives but except for rare years like the McCarthy era, and the Confederacy, we haven't had to deal with anti-American extremists. Now we do.

The power of media persuasion has been growing for decades. We thought that all that was at risk from that was to make us more materialistic. That was offset however by the ability to have what some consider a higher standard of living.

But, opening Pandora's box had ramifications beyond materialism. Now democracy is at risk as media conservatives have been led to long for the return of the wealthy white male run plutocracy our founders desired.

Congress has been rendered impotent. Businesses have forgotten how to grow. The concept of the same civil rights for everyone is being questioned yet again. The Bush policies have us $17T in debt instead of debt free as the CBO anticipated at the end of the Clinton era. All on top of the conservative war on government, science and knowledge and education. And the idea that we ignore climate change and dwindling fossil fuels and just suffer the consequences because we aren't, in their view, smart enough to solve problems.

These are fundamental changes to the fabric of America. We can hope that taking back America that began in 2008 will continue to grow as it has. That our democracy will be stronger than the pull of evangelical media propagandists chipping away at government.

America has always risen to every challenge. Mostly external threats. Now we have to rise to internal threat. And we can.

It's not just about climate change. It's about working towards a better future.

Excellent! You want to spend tens of trillions of dollars, I want to spend zero.

How much better is your future?
Tell me how much lower CO2 will be in your better future, how many parts per million reduction do we get for the tens of trillions?
Show me your better future. Numbers only, not your feelings.

"Excellent! You want to spend tens of trillions of dollars, I want to spend zero."

Describe for us this no cost alternative.

Tell me how much lower CO2 will be in your better future, how many parts per million reduction do we get for the tens of trillions?

 

[PMZ]

It's not just about climate change. It's about working towards a better future.

Excellent! You want to spend tens of trillions of dollars, I want to spend zero.

How much better is your future?
Tell me how much lower CO2 will be in your better future, how many parts per million reduction do we get for the tens of trillions?
Show me your better future. Numbers only, not your feelings.

"Excellent! You want to spend tens of trillions of dollars, I want to spend zero."

Describe for us this no cost alternative.

Tell me how much lower CO2 will be in your better future, how many parts per million reduction do we get for the tens of trillions?

Describe for us this no cost alternative.

 

[PMZ]

Does the no cost alternative include free gasoline until we run out? If it does, I'm going to sell the Prius and get an old Dodge 426 hemi. WTF.

 

[daveman]

I see now.

Your recommendations are to get rid of the IPCC and government. Let big oil do what they want. Wait until fossil fuels are gone or we are, whichever comes first.

No wonder conservatives are being fired from government in droves.

You see shit. He said nothing like that, you arrogant prick.

You don't have any expertise. You don't have any answers. You don't have anything to merit your unmerited arrogance.

All you have is internet access and a raging case of impotence, Skippy.

And I know you can't comprehend this, but I laugh at people like you.

 

[PMZ]

Just think. Bush spent all of those trillions and all of those lives protecting America's oil supply and I don't think that we've seen a drop of Iraqi oil since. Good conservative problem solving.

This no cost alternative must mean that we can disband all of the military we now need to keep that liquid gold flowing for free. Right?

 

[PMZ]

I see now.

Your recommendations are to get rid of the IPCC and government. Let big oil do what they want. Wait until fossil fuels are gone or we are, whichever comes first.

No wonder conservatives are being fired from government in droves.

You see shit. He said nothing like that, you arrogant prick.

You don't have any expertise. You don't have any answers. You don't have anything to merit your unmerited arrogance.

All you have is internet access and a raging case of impotence, Skippy.

And I know you can't comprehend this, but I laugh at people like you.

Oh look. The little cowboy is all tough and stuff.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

"Excellent! You want to spend tens of trillions of dollars, I want to spend zero."

Describe for us this no cost alternative.

Tell me how much lower CO2 will be in your better future, how many parts per million reduction do we get for the tens of trillions?

Describe for us this no cost alternative.

It's all about cost/benefit.
You want to spend tens of trillions, show me the benefit.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Does the no cost alternative include free gasoline until we run out? If it does, I'm going to sell the Prius and get an old Dodge 426 hemi. WTF.

Free gasoline? That's something a liberal would push for, conservatives are all about the market.

When are we going to run of of hydrocarbons again?

Shocking that you drive a Prius. What fossil fuel generates your electrons?

 

[Abraham3]

show me the benefit.

Your children's children won't have to move away from the coast on foot... with a shopping cart for their belongings.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Just think. Bush spent all of those trillions and all of those lives protecting America's oil supply and I don't think that we've seen a drop of Iraqi oil since. Good conservative problem solving.

This no cost alternative must mean that we can disband all of the military we now need to keep that liquid gold flowing for free. Right?

Obama doesn't even want to build a pipeline to keep Canadian oil flowing.
I guess we don't need jobs or oil in Obama's world.

 

[daveman]

I'm sure that conversations like today's make the problem clear to lots more people. It's not just about climate change. It's about working towards a better future. The conservative singular focus on doing nothing and hoping for the past to return would be the end of mankind's progress as we've known it. We've always had conservatives but except for rare years like the McCarthy era, and the Confederacy, we haven't had to deal with anti-American extremists. Now we do.

The power of media persuasion has been growing for decades. We thought that all that was at risk from that was to make us more materialistic. That was offset however by the ability to have what some consider a higher standard of living.

But, opening Pandora's box had ramifications beyond materialism. Now democracy is at risk as media conservatives have been led to long for the return of the wealthy white male run plutocracy our founders desired.

Congress has been rendered impotent. Businesses have forgotten how to grow. The concept of the same civil rights for everyone is being questioned yet again. The Bush policies have us $17T in debt instead of debt free as the CBO anticipated at the end of the Clinton era. All on top of the conservative war on government, science and knowledge and education. And the idea that we ignore climate change and dwindling fossil fuels and just suffer the consequences because we aren't, in their view, smart enough to solve problems.

These are fundamental changes to the fabric of America. We can hope that taking back America that began in 2008 will continue to grow as it has. That our democracy will be stronger than the pull of evangelical media propagandists chipping away at government.

America has always risen to every challenge. Mostly external threats. Now we have to rise to internal threat. And we can.

And there it is, folks -- PMS's "solution" to global warming: Democrat totalitarianism.

When fascism comes to America, it will be carrying a protest sign and screeching "It's for the children!!"

What's your solution to conservatism, PMS? Is it a Final one?

I expect so. Progressivism always winds up bathed in lakes of blood.

Always.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

show me the benefit.

Your children's children won't have to move away from the coast on foot... with a shopping cart for their belongings.

Maybe you can help with some actual numbers?

After we spend tens of trillions on all the green wish list, how much lower will CO2 be in 2080 compared to the level if we give the greens nothing?

 

[PMZ]

I see now.

Your recommendations are to get rid of the IPCC and government. Let big oil do what they want. Wait until fossil fuels are gone or we are, whichever comes first.

No wonder conservatives are being fired from government in droves.

You see shit. He said nothing like that, you arrogant prick.

You don't have any expertise. You don't have any answers. You don't have anything to merit your unmerited arrogance.

All you have is internet access and a raging case of impotence, Skippy.

And I know you can't comprehend this, but I laugh at people like you.

This is the best description that I've seen of the emotional basis of conservatism. Whenever anyone is tempted to risk everything that America is and stands for by voting one of these into government, think of this post.