Morality of Wealth Redistribution

[thereisnospoon]

Think about this my friend...

What if half the people in the United States suddenly doubled their net worth?

By looting the other half?

the result would be an economic catastrophe so vast that sufficient words to describe it don't exist.

Yeah, it works so much better when only a few loot the rest.

What do you call it when the Walmart family makes $millions each off of the labor of people they pay so little they qualify for foodstamps?

Umm, I'd call that Bullshit because WalMart's wages are among the highest in the retail business. Not only are Walmart workers well paid, they also receive superior benefits.
To answer your question directly, here is the one thing that people who are like you cannot fathom. The primary function of a business is to achieve a positive return on investment for the owners and or investors.
The mere fact that WalMart is the largest corporation in the world and is one of the largest employers in the world dispels your notion that the company is this evil empire. If workers were so poorly treated there would be very few people willing to work for the company...
Note....there is no such thing as indentured servitude.
And please, don't start that baloney about walmart being the only employer in town and there are not any other jobs. That's nonsense.

 

[DiamondDave]

No it's not that simple. There aren't enough jobs out there. The last time I went looking for a job, when my husband was unemployed, it took me a YEAR. Never before had it ever taken me that long to find a job. I used to think I could get one in a couple of days, I used to be able to but that option isn't out there today. Why? Most of our jobs have been sent overseas and those that remain are being filled by immigrants, both legal and illegal. They don't want Americans. That's why if you get a job at Walmart you HAVE to take it. I'm sure you would rather they be homeless and unemployed but most people WANT to provide for themselves even though our economy and society today make it impossible for many.

It is that simple. It's not society's responsibility, nor government's responsibility, for you to find a job for your own earning needs... That is the fatal flaw in your thinking...

You don't HAVE to take squat... you make the free choice to do what you have to do.. whether it be a job at walmart, a graveyard shift job at the quickie mart, scooping poop, or whatever else...

Oh.. and look at why jobs go overseas... make things a little more friendly here in terms of corporate taxation, and things may change

How 12 Multinational Corporations Avoid Paying Taxes | Economy | AlterNet
How 12 Multinational Corporations Avoid Paying Taxes


U.S. Corporations Not Paying Taxes | WallStNation.com
U.S. Corporations Not Paying Taxes

Jane Devin: Many US Corporations Not Paying Taxes At All


Many US Corporations Not Paying Taxes At All

Corporations not Paying Fair Share | Free Range Longmont

Corporations not Paying Fair Share

and on and on it goes.

Yeah, it's terrible how those corporations are sending jobs overseas because here they aren't paying any taxes at all......

Fair... the word you libs love to use.. subjective as it may be...

And it has been debunked SO many times about 'corporations not paying any taxes'... no matter how many times huffo puffo and other winger sites love to spout it off

The fact is the corporate taxation rate is outrageous, and the loopholes are many... and it makes it more advantageous for companies to set up elsewhere... moving jobs away from American workers... it is that simple

 

[Uncensored2008]

The Damage of Walmart - The Northern Iowan - University of Northern Iowa

There are some serious issues with this article;

First off, instead of offering documentation for claim of subsidies, you offer a similar rant from another leftist who still fails to substantiate the claim.

{Nationwide, Wal-Mart has received $1.008 billion in subsidies} Really? Where are the citations supporting this claim? In the foot notes? Nope - in line using APA or MLA? Nope, just an unsubstantiated claim.

{The average yearly income for a full-time hourly worker at Wal-Mart is $13,861.}

Really? That's $6.66 an hour, less than minimum wage.

Further, looking to a legitimate source, I see that the average wage for an "associate" is actually $25,030

Wal-Mart Associate Salary | Glassdoor.com

Your source openly and outright lied.

A simple google search will net you a long list of similar articles documenting the practice.

No, it will get similar vitriol sans substantiation.

No one really denies that this goes on. Wal-Mart doesn't deny it.

Deny what, specifically?

Yep. That's the part that's wrong. Cities and counties shouldn't be allowed grant special favors to one business while sticking it to everyone else just because that business has lots of money to throw around.

Why not? You seek to remove the freedom of cities to govern themselves? Perhaps Washington DC can set city and county tax rates? Perhaps ACORN can decide what businesses are or are not allowed?

You think it's a 'myth' that if one business gets tax-abatements, free infrastructure support, special carve-out offers from government they'll have an advantage over those who don't?

If you think they do, you're free to file suit.

Heh.. deny it all you want, but I'm not lying. All this is accepted fact. The question is whether it's the kind of government we want.

You're reciting a myth. You are swearing by an urban legend.

You don't see the relevance of constitutionally limited government?

It has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Yes, many of those workers were "forced" to work there through lack of opportunities elsewhere. Yes, I am "forced" to shop there as they are the only store I can find which carries velcro fasten shoes for my adult autistic son.

BTW, the Walmart family INHERITED their wealth. Sam Walton, the man who built up the business on the practice of "made in America" died and I'll bet he's turning over in his grave at what his children have done to the business.

Yeah, the Walmart family is free to do pretty much what they want. Which is why they've gone to court for LOCKING their employees in at night. You really ought to look up their "business practices".

If I had another way to get those velcro shoes, I wouldn't set foot inside a Walmart store the rest of my life.

Wrong

What forced them not to move or work at McDonalds or start a home cleaning service or anything else??

If you don't like that they got an inheritance passed down in the family from others who put in effort.. or that they expanded it even more.. too bad.. too sad... boo freaking hoo

You're angry and don't like it and instead of using your choice, you wish to punish them in other ways thru big mommy government...

Don't like them, don't shop or work there.... simple as that

No it's not that simple. There aren't enough jobs out there. The last time I went looking for a job, when my husband was unemployed, it took me a YEAR. Never before had it ever taken me that long to find a job. I used to think I could get one in a couple of days, I used to be able to but that option isn't out there today. Why? Most of our jobs have been sent overseas and those that remain are being filled by immigrants, both legal and illegal. They don't want Americans. That's why if you get a job at Walmart you HAVE to take it. I'm sure you would rather they be homeless and unemployed but most people WANT to provide for themselves even though our economy and society today make it impossible for many.

Bull crap.....What kind of skills do you have? Have you ever stopped to consider you may be the problem? That you lack the marketable skills to make you a viable candidate for emloyment?
Oh, most of what jobs have been sent overseas?
Look, you don't get to sit there in your self pity, do nothing to make your skills more marketable and whine that jobs for which you are qualified, do not pay enough for you to maintain a lifestyle you think you deserve.
Newsflash....We are all lifestyle limited by our skills and earning power. Our first priority is to strive to improve ourselves to make us more marketable to employers.
Demanding that by government fiat we should all be given some sort of instant increase in wage via unfunded mandate is ludicrous.
Get off your crying whining ass and do something to make yourself so attractive to prospective employer that they may as well shut down the interview process right as they are through with you. Dazzle them with your presentation. This is how one makes themselves irresistible to prospective employers. Oh, one other thing. Learn to deal with disappointment in a level headed manner.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Wrong

What forced them not to move or work at McDonalds or start a home cleaning service or anything else??

If you don't like that they got an inheritance passed down in the family from others who put in effort.. or that they expanded it even more.. too bad.. too sad... boo freaking hoo

You're angry and don't like it and instead of using your choice, you wish to punish them in other ways thru big mommy government...

Don't like them, don't shop or work there.... simple as that

No it's not that simple. There aren't enough jobs out there. The last time I went looking for a job, when my husband was unemployed, it took me a YEAR. Never before had it ever taken me that long to find a job. I used to think I could get one in a couple of days, I used to be able to but that option isn't out there today. Why? Most of our jobs have been sent overseas and those that remain are being filled by immigrants, both legal and illegal. They don't want Americans. That's why if you get a job at Walmart you HAVE to take it. I'm sure you would rather they be homeless and unemployed but most people WANT to provide for themselves even though our economy and society today make it impossible for many.

Bull crap.....What kind of skills do you have? Have you ever stopped to consider you may be the problem? That you lack the marketable skills to make you a viable candidate for emloyment?
Oh, most of what jobs have been sent overseas?
Look, you don't get to sit there in your self pity, do nothing to make your skills more marketable and whine that jobs for which you are qualified, do not pay enough for you to maintain a lifestyle you think you deserve.
Newsflash....We are all lifestyle limited by our skills and earning power. Our first priority is to strive to improve ourselves to make us more marketable to employers.
Demanding that by government fiat we should all be given some sort of instant increase in wage via unfunded mandate is ludicrous.
Get off your crying whining ass and do something to make yourself so attractive to prospective employer that they may as well shut down the interview process right as they are through with you. Dazzle them with your presentation. This is how one makes themselves irresistible to prospective employers. Oh, one other thing. Learn to deal with disappointment in a level headed manner.

Oh no... it's NEVER them... they live in a perpetual state of victimization.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

The essence of liberalism is to find a victim and figure out a way to wrench property away from the perceived victimizer to give to the victim in an effort to right some egregious wrong that never really occurred in the first place.

 

[Againsheila]

It is that simple. It's not society's responsibility, nor government's responsibility, for you to find a job for your own earning needs... That is the fatal flaw in your thinking...

You don't HAVE to take squat... you make the free choice to do what you have to do.. whether it be a job at walmart, a graveyard shift job at the quickie mart, scooping poop, or whatever else...

Oh.. and look at why jobs go overseas... make things a little more friendly here in terms of corporate taxation, and things may change

How 12 Multinational Corporations Avoid Paying Taxes | Economy | AlterNet
How 12 Multinational Corporations Avoid Paying Taxes


U.S. Corporations Not Paying Taxes | WallStNation.com
U.S. Corporations Not Paying Taxes

Jane Devin: Many US Corporations Not Paying Taxes At All


Many US Corporations Not Paying Taxes At All

Corporations not Paying Fair Share | Free Range Longmont

Corporations not Paying Fair Share

and on and on it goes.

Yeah, it's terrible how those corporations are sending jobs overseas because here they aren't paying any taxes at all......

Fair... the word you libs love to use.. subjective as it may be...

And it has been debunked SO many times about 'corporations not paying any taxes'... no matter how many times huffo puffo and other winger sites love to spout it off

The fact is the corporate taxation rate is outrageous, and the loopholes are many... and it makes it more advantageous for companies to set up elsewhere... moving jobs away from American workers... it is that simple

I posted links...where are your debunking the corporations not paying taxes????

The corporation tax rate is almost nil, it has certainly gone down drastically since the 60's and back then they weren't sending our jobs overseas, of course the CEOs didn't make 500 to 1000 times what their workers made either. For some, we are actually PAYING them to be in business (more socialization, but only for the wealthy).

 

[dblack]

There are some serious issues with this article;

Sure yeah, whatever. I didn't even read that article. You ask for examples of something totally obvious so I grabbed the first damn thing that popped up on google. I'm not really interested in debating with you about whether companies like Wal-Mart get special perks in the form tax abatements and special favors from local government. If you're denying that, there's not much more to talk about.

For those not so deluded, I'm curious how we can justify such uneven application of the law. Why is it fair for certain companies to get special 'breaks' simply because they're larger?

 

[DiamondDave]

How 12 Multinational Corporations Avoid Paying Taxes | Economy | AlterNet
How 12 Multinational Corporations Avoid Paying Taxes


U.S. Corporations Not Paying Taxes | WallStNation.com
U.S. Corporations Not Paying Taxes

Jane Devin: Many US Corporations Not Paying Taxes At All


Many US Corporations Not Paying Taxes At All

Corporations not Paying Fair Share | Free Range Longmont

Corporations not Paying Fair Share

and on and on it goes.

Yeah, it's terrible how those corporations are sending jobs overseas because here they aren't paying any taxes at all......

Fair... the word you libs love to use.. subjective as it may be...

And it has been debunked SO many times about 'corporations not paying any taxes'... no matter how many times huffo puffo and other winger sites love to spout it off

The fact is the corporate taxation rate is outrageous, and the loopholes are many... and it makes it more advantageous for companies to set up elsewhere... moving jobs away from American workers... it is that simple

I posted links...where are your debunking the corporations not paying taxes????

The corporation tax rate is almost nil, it has certainly gone down drastically since the 60's and back then they weren't sending our jobs overseas, of course the CEOs didn't make 500 to 1000 times what their workers made either. For some, we are actually PAYING them to be in business (more socialization, but only for the wealthy).

We have gone thru the myth of 'corporations not paying taxes' ad nauseum on this board...

The corporate tax rate is almost nil?? Are you smoking crack?? Try ~39.2% in 2010

And of course... the CEO pay numbers... which of course you want yourself or your government cronies to limit because it makes you feel better... take away from those evil do-nothings

 

[dblack]

The corporate tax rate is almost nil?? Are you smoking crack?? Try ~39.2% in 2010

It's not the rate that's the issue. The rates is actually too high. It's the fact that it's applied unevenly. Company's that get stuck actually paying that much are getting screwed, while those who play the game get off paying hardly anything.

 

[Foxfyre]

The corporate tax rate is almost nil?? Are you smoking crack?? Try ~39.2% in 2010

It's not the rate that's the issue. The rates is actually too high. It's the fact that it's applied unevenly. Company's that get stuck actually paying that much are getting screwed, while those who play the game get off paying hardly anything.

The ones who are paying hardly anything are the ones outsourcing jobs and shifting all their profits to overseas activities and shifting all their costs/expenses to operations here. That's how the megacorporation like G.E. pays nothing in federal corporate taxes. How are punished? The Obama Administration tapped GE exec Inmelt to head his jobs creation advisory counsel. The irony in that is dripping.

And yes, the U.S. corporate tax rate is right up there at the top with Japan without the advantages Japan gives to its corporate entities in other ways.

If the U.S. government really wants a strong U.S. economy that keeps jobs at home, it will initiate policy and regulation that encourages businesses to hire people and make things here. So, since we aren't doing that, but the Administration is calling for policy and regulation that is going to make things much much worse, one wonders how serious they are in making things better here.

Wealth redistribution can also be interpreted as taking U.S. wealth and transferring it to other places.

 

[boedicca]

Hi tax rates in the U.S. punish smaller companies that do not have the international breadth and phalanx of tax lawyers to help them mitigate the damage.

The Mega Corps like this arrangement as it stunts smaller competitors.

 

[Uncensored2008]

How 12 Multinational Corporations Avoid Paying Taxes | Economy | AlterNet
How 12 Multinational Corporations Avoid Paying Taxes


U.S. Corporations Not Paying Taxes | WallStNation.com
U.S. Corporations Not Paying Taxes

Jane Devin: Many US Corporations Not Paying Taxes At All


Many US Corporations Not Paying Taxes At All

Corporations not Paying Fair Share | Free Range Longmont

Corporations not Paying Fair Share

and on and on it goes.

Yeah, it's terrible how those corporations are sending jobs overseas because here they aren't paying any taxes at all......

Notice how the boogeyman of the left, Wal-Mart, isn't on these lists? Notice how the puppet masters holding Obama's strings, General Electric and Goldman Sachs - ARE?

 

[FiscalSanity]

Folks,

The reason a lot of corporations don't pay income taxes is that they make sure that they don't earn a taxable profit. I'm not talking about publicly traded companies, I'm talking about the private family owned companies where every family member has a piece of the company and is carried on the books as an employee. In those situations all of the profits are going to go to "employees" anyway, so they just give bonuses, raises, etc that offset any profit, and thus escape paying the corporate tax on profits. They still have to pay individual income tax on those bonuses and such, but thats far cheaper then having it first taxed as corporate profit and then again as individual income.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Sure yeah, whatever. I didn't even read that article.

That figures, your idea of citation is some crap from a leftist blog that you didn't even bother to read...

kinda says all that needs be said, doesn't it?

 

[dblack]

kinda says all that needs be said, doesn't it?

I suppose it does!

 

[westwall]

I don't despise Wal-mart. They have found a way to thrive and prosper in a very business unfriendly environment and I say power to them. I shop there infrequently, however. And I've never worked for them but I have family members who have (retired school teachers) and they did not find it a bad experience even though they didn't stay all that long. I hope to leave something for my kids too that will increase their ability to do more with their lives that otherwise might not be possible.

But instead of focusing on Wal-Mart as the bad guy, how about focusing on a government who makes a Wal-mart possible and/or even necessary? How about demanding a government that will stop crushing business spirit and initiative and will rather remove onerous tax and regulation policies and provide incentives for more jobs to be created here? More products to be manufactured here?

Labor is a commodity like anything else. And it is worth more the less there is of it. Work to restore full employment in this country and Wal-mart, along with everybody else, will be forced to raise wages and improve benefits to attract and keep good people. Those that continue to work in low paying 'drudge' jobs will be those that simply aren't capable or willing to do anything else. But there needs to be a place for them too.

We have a government that seems gung ho to keep American business oppressed and American labor unemployed and encourages cheaper products made by cheaper labor overseas. Fix that, and you fix all of it.

The problems I have with wallmart are listed above, and to add to them, wallmart regularly buys influence with small governments and they push out the small businesses who can't compete with them. Walmart claims that they increase jobs but they don't. The amount of jobs they create is countered by those they destroy.

The main problem is they have enough money they can get the government to do almost anything they want that will drive out whatever local competition there is. They are using government to destroy small business and that is a crime.

 

[thereisnospoon]

There are some serious issues with this article;

Sure yeah, whatever. I didn't even read that article. You ask for examples of something totally obvious so I grabbed the first damn thing that popped up on google. I'm not really interested in debating with you about whether companies like Wal-Mart get special perks in the form tax abatements and special favors from local government. If you're denying that, there's not much more to talk about.

For those not so deluded, I'm curious how we can justify such uneven application of the law. Why is it fair for certain companies to get special 'breaks' simply because they're larger?

Like when BMW gets a tax break from Greenville and Spartanburg Counties to build not only a large automotive plant there,but also agrees to pay for an expansion of the airport in return for bringing in 10,000 new and very well paying jobs?
Like when Dell gets tax breaks to build a new assembly plant in Greensboro, NC in return for creating 1,500 news jobs?
These deals are made all the time. It's business. In business parties make trades. Everybody wins.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I don't despise Wal-mart. They have found a way to thrive and prosper in a very business unfriendly environment and I say power to them. I shop there infrequently, however. And I've never worked for them but I have family members who have (retired school teachers) and they did not find it a bad experience even though they didn't stay all that long. I hope to leave something for my kids too that will increase their ability to do more with their lives that otherwise might not be possible.

But instead of focusing on Wal-Mart as the bad guy, how about focusing on a government who makes a Wal-mart possible and/or even necessary? How about demanding a government that will stop crushing business spirit and initiative and will rather remove onerous tax and regulation policies and provide incentives for more jobs to be created here? More products to be manufactured here?

Labor is a commodity like anything else. And it is worth more the less there is of it. Work to restore full employment in this country and Wal-mart, along with everybody else, will be forced to raise wages and improve benefits to attract and keep good people. Those that continue to work in low paying 'drudge' jobs will be those that simply aren't capable or willing to do anything else. But there needs to be a place for them too.

We have a government that seems gung ho to keep American business oppressed and American labor unemployed and encourages cheaper products made by cheaper labor overseas. Fix that, and you fix all of it.

The problems I have with wallmart are listed above, and to add to them, wallmart regularly buys influence with small governments and they push out the small businesses who can't compete with them. Walmart claims that they increase jobs but they don't. The amount of jobs they create is countered by those they destroy.

The main problem is they have enough money they can get the government to do almost anything they want that will drive out whatever local competition there is. They are using government to destroy small business and that is a crime.

A typical Wal Mart store employs hundreds of workers. The business that may close as a result may employ a few dozen workers combined.
Lowes.Target, Home Depot and Many other large retailers do the same thing.
This phenomenon did not start with Wal Mart. It started with the invention of the suburban shopping mall.
Wal Mart gets picked on for two reasons. One is it's staunchly anti- union stance. That makes no sense in that the businesses that would close because of the presence of a Wal Mart were non union anyway. Two, Wal Mart has supplanted Exxon/Mobil and GM ( big union) as the largest corporation in the world. People seem to despise old number one.

 

[dblack]

Like when BMW gets a tax break from Greenville and Spartanburg Counties to build not only a large automotive plant there,but also agrees to pay for an expansion of the airport in return for bringing in 10,000 new and very well paying jobs?
Like when Dell gets tax breaks to build a new assembly plant in Greensboro, NC in return for creating 1,500 news jobs?
These deals are made all the time. It's business. In business parties make trades. Everybody wins.

I couldn't disagree more. The government leaders and the businesses involved might 'win'. The rest of us get screwed. In particular, the businesses trying to compete with the companies getting in bed with government get screwed. The corporate state is not something I want to see in my lifetime, and people lauding the view you represent here are inviting just that. We should keep business out of government and government out of business.