More overrated: JFK or Reagan?

[xotoxi]

More overrated: JFK or Reagan?

I prefer Dulles or Laguardia.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

I know a retired secret service agent who has absolutely nothing good to say about Reagan. Says that he was a two-faced lying phony who wouldn't give anyone the time of day unless he somehow stood to gain from the relationship. Conversely, he has nothing bad to say about Bush Sr. Says he was a true gentleman who honestly cared about everyone, right down to the indigent pan-handler.

The Bush Family has a long-history of professionalism; i.e. covering-up their trackshttp://www.usvetdsp.com/story46.htm.​

 

[Bfgrn]

1300 men killed by the actions of John F. Kennedy, why did Kennedy allow the Bay of Pigs to happen. Was Kennedy arrogant, the invasion was leaked to the public in newspapers, did Kennedy think Castro could not get a paper translated.

Arrogant or callous indifference to the "Latin" fighters.

Who thinks 1300 men can destroy an army of 200,000

#4: Kennedy's Failure at the Bay of Pigs (Top 10 Mistakes by U.S. Presidents) | Britannica Blog

Somehow, word of the plan leaked to the press. On January 10, 1961, the New York Times ran a front page story under the headline, “U.S. HELPS TRAIN AN ANTI-CASTRO FORCE AT SECRET GUATEMALAN BASE.” The fact that the CIA’s secret mission to overthrow Castro was no longer a secret troubled no one in Washington. On March 11, 1961, Kennedy invited to the White House CIA Director Allen Dulles and Richard Bissell, the CIA’s chief of operations; JFK wanted to know, in detail, the plans for the invasion of Cuba. Dulles and Bissell explained that after U.S. aircraft had run bombing missions over the Bay of Pigs area, Cubans recruited from exiles living in Miami would take the beach. The CIA men expected that the invasion would inspire anti-Castro Cubans to rise up and overthrow the dictator.

Kennedy didn’t like the idea of beginning the invasion with air strikes. “Too spectacular,” he said. “It sounds like D-Day. You have to reduce the noise level of the this thing.”

Arrogant or callous indifference to the "Latin" fighters.

None of the above...he was new, and he was green. The plan started under Eisenhower. I can only speculate that Kennedy may have assumed if a former 5 star general was OK with it, then maybe he knew something Kennedy didn't.

the invasion was leaked to the public in newspapers

Leaked by WHOM? One has to wonder if the CIA had a hand in it. Dulles and Bissell NEVER TOLD the Commander in Chief the invasion had NO CHANCE of success unless the US military got involved in a major way. Kennedy warned Dulles and Bissell that he would not fully intervene. So blame Dulles and Bissell for the 1300 deaths. They knew the invasion would fail without full US intervention, and they knew Kennedy said he would not fully intervene. They thought the young President would cave in in the heat of battle...he DIDN'T

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Dammit!

I forgot how reasonable RW can be.

Not that bad of a predition though, only one person has gone out of pattern.

I was asked to choose between the two. I do not refute that both have taken over more legend than fact and both are overrated

WHAT!!!

Reagan is the greatest leader of all time and all time to come!! He's so great everyone thinks he invented sliced bread!!

He was great, the way Lil' Dumbya was competent....the way Karl Rove would expect Sarah Palin to be effective; i.e. stay-the-Hell outta-the-way, and let the designated-hitters run-the-show.​

"It must have been a shock. Clinton thought he was inheriting a $360 billion federal budget deficit when it was in fact twice as much. He thought he was inheriting a nation with a $5.6 trillion debt and it turns out to be a $14 trillion debt.

By April he had learned of the Grand Bushonian Fraud -- how the Bush Cabal denuded the Social Security General Trust Fund and 43 other public trust funds out of $5 trillion and then stuffed them full of worthless non-marketable US Treasury securities. This is the time when Clinton began to talk extensively with Alan Greenspan. He understood that something had to be done because we were virtually in a crisis.

Like most people in Washington, Clinton understood that Ronald Reagan was a figurehead and that it was really the Bush Cabal, which was running things for all of those 12 years. He also understood that the Bush Cabal had perpetrated the greatest fraud ever committed against the American people and that the Bush Cabal had essentially destroyed the economy of the United States - which in fact they had."

 

[Mr. Shaman]

You are right about Kennedy but wrong about Reagan. Reagan destroyed this US economy, and because of his admin, is one of the biggest reasons why there are no factory jobs anymore. The only circles that talk about his integrity, are the ones you run in.

Reagan was also out of touch with the "common" man and definitely seemed to have a dislike for the poor.

One thing about Kennedy's short time in office, though, he instilled an enthusiasm for life, and there was a new vitality in DC which hadn't been there. I was a teenager at the time, and could see the difference from the Eisenhower administration. He also got people moving, and paying more attention to physical fitness. That's really when people started jogging and exercising, and they focused more on physical fitness in the schools. There was a greater emphasis on the arts and literature at the same time.

what on earth do you base that on? Because you sound a bit kooky.

You'd need to be old-enough, to have (actually) been there, to know such things, Skippy.

Go play.....​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Oh Luissa, please explain how Reagan destroyed the US economy. I'm all ears.

LOL!

Your youth, inexperience & Huggies are showing......

​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Dammit!

I forgot how reasonable RW can be.

Not that bad of a predition though, only one person has gone out of pattern.

I was asked to choose between the two. I do not refute that both have taken over more legend than fact and both are overrated

Given your logic, I see where your conclusion comes from. but the only thing I would say is there is a whole generation of people running around trying to be Reagan... when even Reagan didn't govern the way his rhetoric went.

So in that regard, I want to say Reagan is more overrated. But I also happen to believe that if Kennedy had served two terms and not been assassinated, he would be viewed far more critically, particularly given his upping Vietnam and his failure with the Bay of Pigs.

There's a really-good-chance, his assassination KEPT us in 'Nam.....​

April 6, 1954​

"I am frankly of the belief that no amount of American military assistance in Indochina can conquer an enemy which is everywhere and at the same time nowhere, "an enemy of the people" which has the sympathy and covert support of the people."

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT90Qu55O4U&feature=related[/ame]
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[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erf52WGnM4g&feature=related[/ame]
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[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdMhaypD5wU&feature=related[/ame]

We pretty-much SCREWED the Vietnamese, after WWII (by handing them back-over, to the French)....and, eventually, our Karma caught-up to us....​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

"1. President Reagan’s economic policies stimulated the economy, creating 17 million new jobs. One-fourth of the new jobs were created in 68 consecutive months. Black unemployment was cut in half.

Reagan Administration Accomplishments 1981-1989 — The Forerunner

"My name is Jay Rogers. I grew up in Framingham, Massachusetts. I attended UMASS/Amherst, where I double majored in English and Psychology. While taking continuing education courses to get my teacher certification at UMASS, I became a Christian at the age of 23. I joined a campus church at UMASS and took part in many evangelistic outreaches.

From 1988 to 1989, I worked as a high school English teacher in Beverly, Massachusetts. During that time, I was recommended by my pastor for a full-time writing and management position with The Forerunner, a nationally distributed university campus newspaper published by Maranatha Ministries in Gainesville, Florida. I served as the managing editor from 1989 to 1993."

Gee.....friends o' the Contras (and, other such fundamentalist-hustles)....who'd have guessed it??

​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

JFK was a great man who got us into space, as well as did a great deal of work towards civil rights and equality.

Reagan made us one of the most hated nations, expanded the war on drugs (remember "just say no"), as well as damn near broke the Navy with his 500 ship navy dream.

Reagan stinks on ice.

What kind of fucking moron quotes "Just say no." as a bad thing?

Since you must be a total moron, I will inform you that "Just say No" came from Nancy, the First Lady.

....And, THAT effort really snowballed (down the rat-hole of wasteful Republican-$pending).

​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

JFK was a great man who got us into space, as well as did a great deal of work towards civil rights and equality.

Reagan made us one of the most hated nations, expanded the war on drugs (remember "just say no"), as well as damn near broke the Navy with his 500 ship navy dream.

Reagan stinks on ice.

What kind of fucking moron quotes "Just say no." as a bad thing?

Since you must be a total moron, I will inform you that "Just say No" came from Nancy, the First Lady.

This was a fun thread until you opened your mouth and removed all doubt.

Either way, it didn't work.
The moment Nixon started the drug war, and Reagan increased funding the drug problem has just gotten worse. While Reagan was making his speeches on the War on Drugs, crack use was exploding in the US, and CIA agents were helping the heroin industry.

Let's hear it, for OLLIE NORTH!!!!!

​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Both men were great public speakers that could motivate the public.

Both achieved great things. so this is little more than peoples opinions.

I liked JFK, and the Dems that were around then. You had to admire a group that followed a man that said; "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country!"

Now that the dems have devolved into a group that demands the government take care of them and thier health care...

JFK is over hyped, b/c the dems that followed that dream are dead. Many conservatives still like Reaganomics. Fix what went wrong and apply it again, and we will have growth once more.

The only thing that had 'devolved' is conservatives have made a concerted effort to own words and language and use it as a weapon against liberals.

So your definition of 'dems' is the same reflex reaction that Pavlov saw in his dogs.

OK wizkid, please explain how you went form;

"Don't ask what your country....

to

Gimmie my free healthcare NOW.

Maybe devolution was too kind of a word.

.....Especially when your primary-concern should be copyright-infringement.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

JFK was a great man who got us into space, as well as did a great deal of work towards civil rights and equality.

Reagan made us one of the most hated nations, expanded the war on drugs (remember "just say no"), as well as damn near broke the Navy with his 500 ship navy dream.

Reagan stinks on ice.

What kind of fucking moron quotes "Just say no." as a bad thing?

Since you must be a total moron, I will inform you that "Just say No" came from Nancy, the First Lady.

This was a fun thread until you opened your mouth and removed all doubt.

It's ironic, conservatives scream, cry and groan about BIG government, warn about the dire peril of government intervention, and most of all; 'unintended consequences' of the same...

....Especially when they had the FACTS, in-hand, that they'd commissioned!!!!!!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coEPrJuVyWI&feature=related[/ame]​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

What kind of fucking moron quotes "Just say no." as a bad thing?

Since you must be a total moron, I will inform you that "Just say No" came from Nancy, the First Lady.

This was a fun thread until you opened your mouth and removed all doubt.

Reagan had Alzheimer's. Based on the research done by MANY medical types, Alzheimer's can be delayed by smoking cannabis. Cannabis has many other medical uses other than just Alzheimer's by the way.

Try again 2 Dumb, "just say no" was primarily against the "gateway drug" cannabis. And the ramping up of the war on drugs only ended up blowing a bunch of money.

Maybe you will tell me. How did you democrats go from "Ask what you can do for your country" do becoming nothing more than beggars that demand more and more entitlements?

What was Republicans' incentive, for becoming

BLATANT-LIARS?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYI7JXGqd0o[/ame]​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

JFK is greatly overrated for a simple emotional reason... an assassinated president being looked back upon fondly... he's praised like a saint, which he definitely was not.... he made plenty of blunders, made some good moves and was pretty shrewd... certainly not one of the greatest, but not one of the worst either...

I tell you one thing... I would much rather have a Kennedy again than 1 more single day of Obama

Yeah, but that's directly-related to your racism.

Save it! ​

 

[JBeukema]

Both were powerful speakers...
Both were shot

Given Reagans 8 years to Kennedys 3 years, I would have to go with JFK being the more overrated. Reagan had more accomplishments while JFK was more of what might have been

U.S. National Debt Graph + Amazing YouTube Story of the Debt

 

[JBeukema]

google: reagen deficit to see where this country started going seriously wrong


trickle down...

 

[JBeukema]

Reagan was a pink commie lover who wanted to disarm America and leave us vulnerable...

 

[JBeukema]

Don't pay attention to Always a Babbling Bitch...........she quotes her "facts" from ultra right wing blogs and FAUX Nooze.

It'd be nice if you posted an actual rebuttal instead of an attack.

 

[JBeukema]

Don't you think it is strange before the 80's you could buy a home, and easily pay it off?
How about sending your child to college?
Buying a car?
And before the 80's people did this on one income.

I didn't grow up in Idaho, where I was born thanks to Reagan and the "great" economy in the 80's. The driving force for the economy in the town I was born in, was a factory. When we left in 85's the town was dead and my parents had to take a loss on our house. We then moved to Spokane, which has been on a steady decline since the 80's, thanks to most of the factories closing.

The solution:

protective tariffs and fair trade laws than ban imported goods produced in sweatshops to reduce the exploitation of the poor and make 'outsourcing' less attractive and keeps jobs and manufacturing inside the United States, with trade being supplementing rather than replacing American production and invention. Two birds, one stone.

But neither party seems up to it.

A plague on both their houses.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

I know a retired secret service agent who has absolutely nothing good to say about Reagan. Says that he was a two-faced lying phony who wouldn't give anyone the time of day unless he somehow stood to gain from the relationship. Conversely, he has nothing bad to say about Bush Sr. Says he was a true gentleman who honestly cared about everyone, right down to the indigent pan-handler.

Bush Sr. is one of the most under-rated presidents of our time. Easily.

....As-long-as character isn't a consideration.....

​

"There is also the sticky subject of Bush's longtime affiliation with the incarcerated former Panamanian dictator Gen. Manuel Antonio Noriega.

The connection between the two men goes back to 1976 when each directed his country's intelligence service and Noriega was on the payroll of the CIA. The two had lunch together in Washington in late 1976 and met again in Panama in December 1983.

Former CIA Director Stansfield Turner told UPI in 1988 that he had removed Noriega from the agency payroll in 1977 because he was an "unscrupulous character," but Bush later reinstated him.

Turner said that after Bush became vice president in 1981, he "met with Noriega and put him back on the payroll" as an intelligence source.

As early as 1972, questions were raised within the U.S. government about Gen. Noriega's complicity in the drug trade."