Mubarak stepping down.

[Ropey]

You refuse to define to this "sake of Allah". I am asking a clear definition.

Incorrect. If the answer I provided didn't live up to your standards of clarity then please help me by pointing out which part you didn't understand.

You can't define your own beliefs statement (sake of Allah)?

So are your prayers repeated. Does yesterday's prayers from a book that someone else wrote make less meaning Kalam. You obfuscate.

I pointed out an inaccuracy on your part. Had that been all I said in response, you'd be correct. But it wasn't and you aren't.

And by pointing out what you see as an innacuracy you side-stepped the question. Kalam, this IS obfuscation.

In a speech delivered in Cologne earlier this month, Erdoğan said Turks there should learn German but not give up their Turkish identity, highlighting differences between Turkish and German leaders concerning integration. The prime minister also called assimilation a "crime against humanity."

On Friday Germany's Interior Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble, a key supporter of Merkel, said the meaningful translation of the Turkish word used by Erdoğan should have been "forced assimilation." (from Today's Zaman)​

In his full quote he notes the difference between integration and what has been translated as "assimilation." Moreover, he was discussing Turkish cultural identity and not Islam. But your reliance on biased weblogs tells me that you're far more interested in advancing an agenda than you are in presenting facts accurately.

This is simple restructuring of past statements. I know that this speech of Erdogan's will not be found easily as the time goes on.

Still you cling to this naive notion that territorial control somehow equates to power.

Me and the entire militarism of the world. Me and those who attempt to control countries.

Just you and those who control no land seem to think that this control of countries land and military powers means nothing. That's simply too funny.

We have no land, therefore it means that land is not necessary.

Which country does your man Usama control?

The countries that send him money. The countries that give him security whilst hiding. The countries that allow his act and actors movement. But He is your man. He is Muslim. Not a Jew. Your man.

Frankly, it doesn't make much of a difference to me whether or not you believe reform will occur.

I didn't ask if you cared or not so why do you state this? To facilitate conversation? That's the antithesis of communication.

I point out what is reliable and what is not. If you contend that this blog is a reliable source of information, please explain why.

...And hopefully realized that many of the positions I've taken and things I've said in the past have no bearing on our present discussion and that engaging in this sort of ad hominem nonsense is not something I'm interest in.

If this is simply an ad hominem game to you. I will end my part of it.

You admit that your intention was to belittle and now you imply that it was a genuine compliment? Shenanigans.

I belittle any idea that simply comes to the mind to counteract actual happenings on the ground. Yes, indeed I do and it is not shenanigans. It is reality. Works Kalam. Where are they? Oh, right, you could care less if I believe reform will come or not. So this thread of discussion is also over it would seem.

Most who want to see it "modernized" really want to see it neutered and reduced to a meaningless set of once-a-week rituals like much of today's Western Christianity. The religious commandments themselves are static because they're the revelations of God and it isn't our place to change them to conform to ever-changing and meaningless human notions of "modernity." Technology advances and changes over time and we adapt to this. The Truth is always the Truth.

Truth interspersed with lies is always truth interspersed with lies. You know what most think? OK

I thought that's what those who you espouse were trying to create? A modern Islamic society?

Again, "modern" in what sense?

Look to the dictionary Kalam.

I am saying that Israel had to recreate itself from nothing. Those you espouse for this "correct" version of Islam can't even do it with one of the current 57 Muslim countries?

That's what I say.

Nu?

Islam has had a caliphate for most of its history. Yet we're now supposed to believe that reviving this institution is impossible since one doesn't presently exist...

Not impossible, just not existent except in your words. Sorry, I put forwards that your words about an institution that does not exist yet has 57 countries enforcing another pattern of existence shows that which you espouse to be very weak.

Yes, you see it as strong. I say show us the works Kalam...

I see none.

 

[Ropey]

No. My love belongs to Canada. My love was created by Canada. I know, you don't understand Jos.

Ah so there is no truth to the rumor that your actual heart is a replacement one taken from goyim?

My heart is the one G-d gave me. Rumor? The one you just started?

 

[saveliberty]

So now Mubarak "WANTS" to step down, but is afraid of the power vaccum that would result.

Its like truthmatters or shaman is his spin agent.

 

[Kalam]

You refuse to define to this "sake of Allah". I am asking a clear definition.

Incorrect. If the answer I provided didn't live up to your standards of clarity then please help me by pointing out which part you didn't understand.

You can't define your own beliefs statement (sake of Allah)?

I did.

And by pointing out what you see as an innacuracy you side-stepped the question. Kalam, this IS obfuscation.

I pointed it out after addressing your question.

"This is a form of red herring unless you can point to specific examples of his supposed discouragement of assimilation."

You provided what you thought to be an example. I responded to that. Yet here you are accusing me of obfuscation.

This is simple restructuring of past statements. I know that this speech of Erdogan's will not be found easily as the time goes on.

You point to Erdogan as if he's an authority on the Islamic religion, quote a statement of his that has nothing to do with Islam, and now imply that he meant to say something else and I'm supposed to take you at your word...

"OK."

Me and the entire militarism of the world. Me and those who attempt to control countries.

Just you and those who control no land seem to think that this control of countries land and military powers means nothing. That's simply too funny.

Means nothing? I've never said this. What I say is that using the amount of territory an entity controls (and nothing else) as a measure of their power is foolish. It would imply that that the government of Chad, for example, is a more influential institution than the papacy.

We have no land, therefore it means that land is not necessary.

"You have no land, therefore you have no influence."

The countries that send him money. The countries that give him security whilst hiding. The countries that allow his act and actors movement.

Oh, I see. Countries with disloyal elements that work in a non-state entity's favor can be considered the territory of that entity. Pakistan and much of Central Asia belong to the movement for the khilafah in that case.

But He is your man. He is Muslim. Not a Jew. Your man.

Yet I think nothing of him while you invoke him at every turn...

I didn't ask if you cared or not so why do you state this? To facilitate conversation? That's the antithesis of communication.

I belittle any idea that simply comes to the mind to counteract actual happenings on the ground. Yes, indeed I do and it is not shenanigans. It is reality. Works Kalam. Where are they?

Islamist militant groups all seek to establish control over territory through military conquest. Many have succeeded at some level, but the Taliban alone were successful in establishing was could rightfully be called a functioning state and their victory was short-lived. Islamist political parties field candidates in an attempt to gradually change their respective countries' governments from within. The least visible organizations are those which attempt to establish power through bloodless coups. They attempt to gain influence by appealing to the political and military elite within a certain country until they've infiltrated the government to such an extent that they can destroy it from within rather abruptly.

Pointing to examples of their progress can be difficult since they work in secrecy.

Truth interspersed with lies is always truth interspersed with lies.

There are no lies in the Word of God.

You know what most think? OK

It is my impression and reflects my own experiences. I'm sorry if it bothers you.

Look to the dictionary Kalam.

But I'm not having a discussion with the dictionary. I'm more interested in what you meant.

Not impossible, just not existent except in your words. Sorry, I put forwards that your words about an institution that does not exist yet has 57 countries enforcing another pattern of existence shows that which you espouse to be very weak.

Yes, you see it as strong. I say show us the works Kalam...

I see none.

Neither did Abu Jahl...

It might not occur during your lifetime or mine, but this is a part of our history that has already been written. Its arrival is as certain as the Last Day.

 

[Ropey]

You point to Erdogan as if he's an authority on the Islamic religion, quote a statement of his that has nothing to do with Islam, and now imply that he meant to say something else and I'm supposed to take you at your word...

"OK."

"The mosques are our barracks, the domes are our helmets, the minarets are our swords, and the faithful are our army."

Turkey's Erdogan: "The Minarets Are Our Swords" | EuropeNews

On Friday, prosecutors in the southeastern city of Diyarbakir filed charges against Mayor Reccep Tayip Erdogan of Istanbul, in connection with a speech he made in the nearby town of Siirt last year. In that speech, Mr. Erdogan, who is a leader of the Islamic-oriented Welfare Party, said, ''The mosques are our barracks, the domes are our helmets, the minarets are our swords, and the faithful are our army.''

Turkey Charges Leading Politicians as Threat to Nation's Unity - NYTimes.com

Clearly this is getting us nowhere. He was taken to task for these words long ago, and it seems as if he has won. It is clear, even if you do not see it.

 

[Kalam]

Clearly this is getting us nowhere. He was taken to task for these words long ago, and it seems as if he has won. It is clear, even if you do not see it.

I was referring to his statement regarding assimilation. The Welfare Party was banned and it's quite apparent that imprisonment persuaded Erdogan to adopt a more "moderate" stance since his policies are in no way those of an "Islamist." It is clear, even if you do not see it.

 

[Ropey]

Clearly this is getting us nowhere. He was taken to task for these words long ago, and it seems as if he has won. It is clear, even if you do not see it.

I was referring to his statement regarding assimilation. The Welfare Party was banned and it's quite apparent that imprisonment persuaded Erdogan to adopt a more "moderate" stance since his policies are in no way those of an "Islamist." It is clear, even if you do not see it.

Persuaded being the definitive word. Persuaded to adopt a more moderate stance until...

Not Islamist. A Muslim leader says this on the world stage and is not an Islamist. I see it. Oh yes, I see it.

And it worries me more than you may think. I see it as an Islamic statement. You don't, but I do.

It's not all that important anyway. We both know that the tides and sands of time will bring about the correct conclusion on time that is not ours to control.

 

[Kalam]

Not Islamist. A Muslim leader says this on the world stage and is not an Islamist. I see it. Oh yes, I see it.

Only God knows a person's beliefs unless they manifest themselves as words or actions. How can you claim to know what he truly believes?

And it worries me more than you may think. I see it as an Islamic statement. You don't, but I do.

Why?

 

[Ropey]

Not Islamist. A Muslim leader says this on the world stage and is not an Islamist. I see it. Oh yes, I see it.

Only God knows a person's beliefs unless they manifest themselves as words or actions. How can you claim to know what he truly believes?

I don't and never have claimed to know. I know what he says and does though. Their works, remember? That's enough for discussion, as history has shown that loud and charismatic leaders show their hand, so this worry is of the ones who have no problem saying what they truly believe.

And it worries me more than you may think. I see it as an Islamic statement. You don't, but I do.

Why?

Because I see intolerance in that speech. I know that Muslim intolerance speaks to Israel as well.