Northern nations warming faster than global average

[Toddsterpatriot]

.

You're lying. Not a single source backs up your claim that photons only flow one way.

So do provide a single observation and measurement of spontaneous two way energy exchange between objects of different temperatures.

. After IR is absorbed by GHGs, it's conducted to other molecules in the atmosphere.
There would be a lot less energy to conduct without GHGs.

And the IR is emitted after the surface of the earth is warmed by short wave radiation...but it isn't short wave that is being emitted by the surface...just like it isn't IR that is warming the air...mental masturbation is never going to get IR to warm the air...you need conduction to make that happen and where the energy comes from is completely irrelevant...when it is warming the air...it isn't IR...just like when it is emitting from the surface of the earth, it isn't short wave any longer.

. I don't need to defend any portion of the AGW idiocy in order to notice, and mock, your errors.

Translates as you can't, so you will toss out an ad hom or two in an attempt to deflect from the fact that you can't..

. You got one right. Did someone hijack your account?[p/quote]

And by the same logic, the energy that is warming the air is no longer IR...which excludes the possibility of a radiative greenhouse effect.

. The IR energy is captured when a GHG molecule absorbs the IR photon.

No...the energy captured is not IR...It might have been when it was captured, but once it was captured, it was no longer IR...the energy it lost due to collision was just energy...not IR...any more than the energy the surface emits is short wave...

So do provide a single observation and measurement of spontaneous two way energy exchange between objects of different temperatures.

Your source agreed with me, what more do you want?

Now how about your source that says, explicitly, one way only......
Should be easy for you.​

just like it isn't IR that is warming the air

just like it is IR that is warming the air

you need conduction to make that happen

Nah. The CO2, or other GHG, when it absorbs IR is heated.
Whether it conducts the heat away or not.


And the IR is emitted after the surface of the earth is warmed by short wave radiation

Damn right.

but it isn't short wave that is being emitted by the surface..

Nobody said it was. Photons converted into kinetic energy, heat, just like IR heating the GHGs.

Translates as you can't

Translates into, I don't have to defend the fraud that is AGW in order to point out your many, many errors.

the energy that is warming the air is no longer IR..

Who ever claimed that a photon after it's absorbed is still a photon?
Is it jc? DURR.

No...the energy captured is not IR...

What is it, UV? Xrays? Radio waves?

It might have been when it was captured,

Thanks for playing. Here's your participation trophy.

but once it was captured, it was no longer IR...the energy it lost due to collision was just energy...not IR...

Yup. What was IR is now heat. Welcome to the party, pal.

 

[SSDD]

Asked and answered many times wash, rinse, repeat. Do you know it’s spontaneous? Please, post it because scientists say they don’t

For any spontaneous reaction to occur, something had to reduce entropy (add order) between two areas in the first place.

Earth systems are 'powered' by the entropy increase when highly ordered sunlight comes in but disordered infrared leaves. The same amount of energy goes in both directions.

Energy only moves from warm to cool...perhaps you could petition to get the second law of thermodynamics rewritten so that it agrees with you. Let me know how that works out for you.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Let me know if you find a source that supports SSDD's claim. He needs your help.
Every source he posts ends up refuting his claims.

So do quote the physical law that states that energy exchange is a two way proposition. This should be good. The second law says that energy can only move spontaneously from warm too cool...the SB law describes a one way energy flow...there is no derivation of the Planck law that describes two way energy flow...so lets see it...lets see the physical law that states that energy flows spontaneously in two directions...from warm to cool and from cool to warm...

Stefan-Boltzmann law, statement that the total radiant heat energy emitted from a surface is proportional to the fourth power of its absolute temperature. …

No exception given for dialing back emitted energy due to nearby matter or matter a billion light years away.

Maybe if you had a source that supports your dimmer switch theory you'd be taken more seriously?

I doubt that S-B would have been aware of the rules that science would later apply to photons...I didn't make them up, I just pointed them out and what the ramifications of those rules are.

I didn't make them up, I just pointed them out and what the ramifications of those rules are.

When you claimed that matter won't emit a photon if the target of the photon, a billion light years away, is warmer than the emitter.....you did make them up.

You can still redeem yourself with a real source that agrees with your "one way only photons", "dimmer switch emitters" and "no radiating at all at equilibrium", but you never ever do. Weird.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Asked and answered many times wash, rinse, repeat. Do you know it’s spontaneous? Please, post it because scientists say they don’t

For any spontaneous reaction to occur, something had to reduce entropy (add order) between two areas in the first place.

Earth systems are 'powered' by the entropy increase when highly ordered sunlight comes in but disordered infrared leaves. The same amount of energy goes in both directions.

Energy only moves from warm to cool...perhaps you could petition to get the second law of thermodynamics rewritten so that it agrees with you. Let me know how that works out for you.

Energy only moves from warm to cool...

Except when it moves from cool to warm (cough...sun's surface to corona...cough)

 

[SSDD]

Your source agreed with me, what more do you want?

Exactly what I said I wanted...an observation and measurement of spontaneous two way energy exchange between objects of different temperatures...not a line drawing depicting an unmeasurable, unobservable, untestable mathematical model.

Now how about your source that says, explicitly, one way only......
Should be easy for you.

No problem...the best source there is...the second law of thermodynamics...the mother of all physical laws. It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Which part of that do you think suggests that it is possible for energy to move spontaneously in two directions?​

just like it is IR that is warming the air

Got a source that says that when a thing is being heated by conduction, that IR is doing the heating? Didn't think so...

Nah. The CO2, or other GHG, when it absorbs IR is heated.
Whether it conducts the heat away or not.

Got a single observed measurement that establishes a coherent relationship between the absorption of IR by a gas and warming in the atmosphere?

Didn't think so.

Who ever claimed that a photon after it's absorbed is still a photon?
Is it jc? DURR.

You are the one claiming that IR warms the air...now you are saying that it doesn't? Which is it?

Yup. What was IR is now heat. Welcome to the party, pal.

What a spectacular failure of logic...but it was damned funny to watch...and predictable as midnight...

 

[SSDD]

When you claimed that matter won't emit a photon if the target of the photon, a billion light years away, is warmer than the emitter.....you did make them up.

What do you think it means when science says that a photon exists simultaneously along every point of its path?

You can still redeem yourself with a real source that agrees with your "one way only photons", "dimmer switch emitters" and "no radiating at all at equilibrium", but you never ever do. Weird.

Which part of this statement do you think suggests that energy can flow spontaneously in two directions between two objects of different temperatures?

It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Asked and answered many times wash, rinse, repeat. Do you know it’s spontaneous? Please, post it because scientists say they don’t

For any spontaneous reaction to occur, something had to reduce entropy (add order) between two areas in the first place.

Earth systems are 'powered' by the entropy increase when highly ordered sunlight comes in but disordered infrared leaves. The same amount of energy goes in both directions.

Energy only moves from warm to cool...perhaps you could petition to get the second law of thermodynamics rewritten so that it agrees with you. Let me know how that works out for you.

Energy only moves from warm to cool...

Except when it moves from cool to warm (cough...sun's surface to corona...cough)

Sorry that you aren't bright enough to grasp the concept of spontaneity. It isn't difficult, but you clearly just can't get it.

Sorry that you aren't bright enough to grasp the concept of spontaneity.

Educate me. Speak slowly. Explain precisely why cooler matter on the Sun's surface is allowed
to emit toward the hotter corona, unlike every other bit of cooler matter in the universe that you said is not allowed to emit toward hotter targets.

Tell me why those emitted solar photons are not spontaneous.

You can do it.....unless you're gonna run away instead?????

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

When you claimed that matter won't emit a photon if the target of the photon, a billion light years away, is warmer than the emitter.....you did make them up.

What do you think it means when science says that a photon exists simultaneously along every point of its path?

You can still redeem yourself with a real source that agrees with your "one way only photons", "dimmer switch emitters" and "no radiating at all at equilibrium", but you never ever do. Weird.

Which part of this statement do you think suggests that energy can flow spontaneously in two directions between two objects of different temperatures?

It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object

What do you think it means when science says that a photon exists simultaneously along every point of its path?

Does it mean a photon knows where every bit of matter will be across the universe in a billion years?
Does it mean a photon knows the temperature of every bit of matter across the universe in a billion years?

Which part of this statement do you think suggests that energy can flow spontaneously in two directions between two objects of different temperatures?

Which part of this Law says..."unless there is warmer matter somewhere in the Universe"?


Stefan-Boltzmann law, statement that the total radiant heat energy emitted from a surface is proportional to the fourth power of its absolute temperature. ... The law applies only to blackbodies, theoretical surfaces that absorb all incident heat radiation.

It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow.

What kinds of work would allow cold to warm flow? Post a list.

 

[MisterBeale]

View attachment 253589

 

[IanC]

Heat continuously tries to diffuse in all directions. By conduction and radiation. Convection is a different process.

So now you are going to try and claim back conduction as well?

In a gas? Of course there is.

The speed and direction of molecules in a cohort of gas is random. Any chosen slice through the gas will see molecules passing in both directions, travelling at different speeds.

Your twisted version of thermodynamics would stop a fast moving molecule migrating from the cooler side to the warmer side. By some unknown mechanism, controlled by some unknown entity.

 

[IanC]

Asked and answered many times wash, rinse, repeat. Do you know it’s spontaneous? Please, post it because scientists say they don’t

For any spontaneous reaction to occur, something had to reduce entropy (add order) between two areas in the first place.

Earth systems are 'powered' by the entropy increase when highly ordered sunlight comes in but disordered infrared leaves. The same amount of energy goes in both directions.

Energy only moves from warm to cool...perhaps you could petition to get the second law of thermodynamics rewritten so that it agrees with you. Let me know how that works out for you.

It was rewritten a hundred years ago. Here s the first google description-
"The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system can never decrease over time. The total entropy of a system and its surroundings can remain constant in ideal cases where the system is in thermodynamicequilibrium, or is undergoing a (fictive) reversible process"

I didnt look very hard but I didn't even see your definition. Could you provide a link?

 

[SSDD]

Heat continuously tries to diffuse in all directions. By conduction and radiation. Convection is a different process.

So now you are going to try and claim back conduction as well?

In a gas? Of course there is.

The speed and direction of molecules in a cohort of gas is random. Any chosen slice through the gas will see molecules passing in both directions, travelling at different speeds.

Your twisted version of thermodynamics would stop a fast moving molecule migrating from the cooler side to the warmer side. By some unknown mechanism, controlled by some unknown entity.

Got any observed, measured evidence? Actual evidence I mean...that would be observations and measurements made with an instrument at ambient temperature?

Didn't think so.

 

[SSDD]

Asked and answered many times wash, rinse, repeat. Do you know it’s spontaneous? Please, post it because scientists say they don’t

For any spontaneous reaction to occur, something had to reduce entropy (add order) between two areas in the first place.

Earth systems are 'powered' by the entropy increase when highly ordered sunlight comes in but disordered infrared leaves. The same amount of energy goes in both directions.

Energy only moves from warm to cool...perhaps you could petition to get the second law of thermodynamics rewritten so that it agrees with you. Let me know how that works out for you.

It was rewritten a hundred years ago. Here s the first google description-
"The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system can never decrease over time. The total entropy of a system and its surroundings can remain constant in ideal cases where the system is in thermodynamicequilibrium, or is undergoing a (fictive) reversible process"

I didnt look very hard but I didn't even see your definition. Could you provide a link?

And still doesn't suggest that energy exchange is a two way process...entropy is the process of energy rolling down hill...and all natural processes are irreversible.

Second Law of Thermodynamics

 

[SSDD]

Asked and answered many times wash, rinse, repeat. Do you know it’s spontaneous? Please, post it because scientists say they don’t

For any spontaneous reaction to occur, something had to reduce entropy (add order) between two areas in the first place.

Earth systems are 'powered' by the entropy increase when highly ordered sunlight comes in but disordered infrared leaves. The same amount of energy goes in both directions.

The ask was the corona and science doesn’t know why the corona is warmer than the surface

Nobody here cares why the corona is warmer.

We care about SSDD's moronic claim that photons can't move from cooler matter to warmer matter.
Do you agree with his moronic claim?
If you do, explain why cooler matter on the Sun's surface can radiate toward the hotter corona.

Nobody here cares why the corona is warmer
Dude, you bring it up almost monthly over the last two years

He brings it up because for some reason he believes the fact that the corona is hotter than the surface that it is an example of energy moving spontaneously from a cooler region to a warmer region. There is no suggestion anywhere that that is the case, but it is what he believes...like he believes that the thermosphere of the earth is a warmer region than the surface of the earth even though you would freeze to death there in moments...sure the individual molecules are very warm, but they are so far apart that you would freeze before you even encounter one of them.

He likes to claim that others have nutty ideas, but those two are off of the top shelf of the nutty ideas store...and then there is the fact that no physical law says that he is correct while the mother of all physical laws, the second law of thermodynamics supports what he calls my nutty idea.

 

[IanC]

Asked and answered many times wash, rinse, repeat. Do you know it’s spontaneous? Please, post it because scientists say they don’t

For any spontaneous reaction to occur, something had to reduce entropy (add order) between two areas in the first place.

Earth systems are 'powered' by the entropy increase when highly ordered sunlight comes in but disordered infrared leaves. The same amount of energy goes in both directions.

Energy only moves from warm to cool...perhaps you could petition to get the second law of thermodynamics rewritten so that it agrees with you. Let me know how that works out for you.

It was rewritten a hundred years ago. Here s the first google description-
"The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system can never decrease over time. The total entropy of a system and its surroundings can remain constant in ideal cases where the system is in thermodynamicequilibrium, or is undergoing a (fictive) reversible process"

I didnt look very hard but I didn't even see your definition. Could you provide a link?

And still doesn't suggest that energy exchange is a two way process...entropy is the process of energy rolling down hill...and all natural processes are irreversible.

Second Law of Thermodynamics

Your link has four areas covered by the SLoT. Your definition goes to the refrigeration section which then states-

It is important to note that when it is stated that energy will not spontaneously flow from a cold object to a hot object, that statement is referring to net transfer of energy. Energy can transfer from the cold object to the hot object either by transfer of energetic particles or electromagnetic radiation, but the net transfer will be from the hot object to the cold object in any spontaneous process. Work is required to transfer net energy to the hot object

Why do your links always end up as evidence for my position?

 

[IanC]

Got any observed, measured evidence? Actual evidence I mean...that would be observations and measurements made with an instrument at ambient temperature?

Didn't think so.

Evaporation. You say energy will never move to an already 'warm' particle but evaporation is the end result of random collisions that impart sufficient speed to an H2O molecule so that it can break free from the liquid, taking its energy with it.

 

[IanC]

Asked and answered many times wash, rinse, repeat. Do you know it’s spontaneous? Please, post it because scientists say they don’t

For any spontaneous reaction to occur, something had to reduce entropy (add order) between two areas in the first place.

Earth systems are 'powered' by the entropy increase when highly ordered sunlight comes in but disordered infrared leaves. The same amount of energy goes in both directions.

The ask was the corona and science doesn’t know why the corona is warmer than the surface

Nobody here cares why the corona is warmer.

We care about SSDD's moronic claim that photons can't move from cooler matter to warmer matter.
Do you agree with his moronic claim?
If you do, explain why cooler matter on the Sun's surface can radiate toward the hotter corona.

Nobody here cares why the corona is warmer
Dude, you bring it up almost monthly over the last two years

He brings it up because for some reason he believes the fact that the corona is hotter than the surface that it is an example of energy moving spontaneously from a cooler region to a warmer region. There is no suggestion anywhere that that is the case, but it is what he believes...like he believes that the thermosphere of the earth is a warmer region than the surface of the earth even though you would freeze to death there in moments...sure the individual molecules are very warm, but they are so far apart that you would freeze before you even encounter one of them.

He likes to claim that others have nutty ideas, but those two are off of the top shelf of the nutty ideas store...and then there is the fact that no physical law says that he is correct while the mother of all physical laws, the second law of thermodynamics supports what he calls my nutty idea.

Be definitive. Are you saying that yes, the corona stops some photons from being emitted from the surface. But that the corona is too rarified to cast much of a shadow because the remaining radiation slips through the gaps.

Be specific for a change.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Asked and answered many times wash, rinse, repeat. Do you know it’s spontaneous? Please, post it because scientists say they don’t

For any spontaneous reaction to occur, something had to reduce entropy (add order) between two areas in the first place.

Earth systems are 'powered' by the entropy increase when highly ordered sunlight comes in but disordered infrared leaves. The same amount of energy goes in both directions.

The ask was the corona and science doesn’t know why the corona is warmer than the surface

Nobody here cares why the corona is warmer.

We care about SSDD's moronic claim that photons can't move from cooler matter to warmer matter.
Do you agree with his moronic claim?
If you do, explain why cooler matter on the Sun's surface can radiate toward the hotter corona.

Nobody here cares why the corona is warmer
Dude, you bring it up almost monthly over the last two years

He brings it up because for some reason he believes the fact that the corona is hotter than the surface that it is an example of energy moving spontaneously from a cooler region to a warmer region. There is no suggestion anywhere that that is the case, but it is what he believes...like he believes that the thermosphere of the earth is a warmer region than the surface of the earth even though you would freeze to death there in moments...sure the individual molecules are very warm, but they are so far apart that you would freeze before you even encounter one of them.

He likes to claim that others have nutty ideas, but those two are off of the top shelf of the nutty ideas store...and then there is the fact that no physical law says that he is correct while the mother of all physical laws, the second law of thermodynamics supports what he calls my nutty idea.

He brings it up because for some reason he believes the fact that the corona is hotter than the surface that it is an example of energy moving spontaneously from a cooler region to a warmer region.

You could explain why it isn't spontaneous. Or you could run away......again.

 

[Wuwei]

He brings it up because for some reason he believes the fact that the corona is hotter than the surface that it is an example of energy moving spontaneously from a cooler region to a warmer region.

You could explain why it isn't spontaneous. Or you could run away......again.

He once said something to the effect that no process is spontaneous if it involved prior work or if it were man-made. He also said that the sun is not spontaneous, but involves work.

In essence, that would mean nothing is spontaneous. I challenged him once to name a spontaneous process that involved no prior work and he ran away.


.

 

[jc456]

For any spontaneous reaction to occur, something had to reduce entropy (add order) between two areas in the first place.

Earth systems are 'powered' by the entropy increase when highly ordered sunlight comes in but disordered infrared leaves. The same amount of energy goes in both directions.

The ask was the corona and science doesn’t know why the corona is warmer than the surface

Nobody here cares why the corona is warmer.

We care about SSDD's moronic claim that photons can't move from cooler matter to warmer matter.
Do you agree with his moronic claim?
If you do, explain why cooler matter on the Sun's surface can radiate toward the hotter corona.

Nobody here cares why the corona is warmer
Dude, you bring it up almost monthly over the last two years

He brings it up because for some reason he believes the fact that the corona is hotter than the surface that it is an example of energy moving spontaneously from a cooler region to a warmer region. There is no suggestion anywhere that that is the case, but it is what he believes...like he believes that the thermosphere of the earth is a warmer region than the surface of the earth even though you would freeze to death there in moments...sure the individual molecules are very warm, but they are so far apart that you would freeze before you even encounter one of them.

He likes to claim that others have nutty ideas, but those two are off of the top shelf of the nutty ideas store...and then there is the fact that no physical law says that he is correct while the mother of all physical laws, the second law of thermodynamics supports what he calls my nutty idea.

He brings it up because for some reason he believes the fact that the corona is hotter than the surface that it is an example of energy moving spontaneously from a cooler region to a warmer region.

You could explain why it isn't spontaneous. Or you could run away......again.

when the experts figure it out. name one scientist that says it's spontaneous.