Northern nations warming faster than global average

[jc456]

Asked and answered many times wash, rinse, repeat. Do you know it’s spontaneous? Please, post it because scientists say they don’t

For any spontaneous reaction to occur, something had to reduce entropy (add order) between two areas in the first place.

Earth systems are 'powered' by the entropy increase when highly ordered sunlight comes in but disordered infrared leaves. The same amount of energy goes in both directions.

Energy only moves from warm to cool...perhaps you could petition to get the second law of thermodynamics rewritten so that it agrees with you. Let me know how that works out for you.

It was rewritten a hundred years ago. Here s the first google description-
"The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system can never decrease over time. The total entropy of a system and its surroundings can remain constant in ideal cases where the system is in thermodynamicequilibrium, or is undergoing a (fictive) reversible process"

I didnt look very hard but I didn't even see your definition. Could you provide a link?

And still doesn't suggest that energy exchange is a two way process...entropy is the process of energy rolling down hill...and all natural processes are irreversible.

Second Law of Thermodynamics

Your link has four areas covered by the SLoT. Your definition goes to the refrigeration section which then states-

It is important to note that when it is stated that energy will not spontaneously flow from a cold object to a hot object, that statement is referring to net transfer of energy. Energy can transfer from the cold object to the hot object either by transfer of energetic particles or electromagnetic radiation, but the net transfer will be from the hot object to the cold object in any spontaneous process. Work is required to transfer net energy to the hot object

Why do your links always end up as evidence for my position?

says heat transfer.... Restricts the direction of!!!!

 

[Wuwei]

And still doesn't suggest that energy exchange is a two way process.

Entropy allows the exchange of radiation as long as entropy increases between the initial and final state of a system. It doesn't disallow radiation exchange.

.entropy is the process of energy rolling down hill......

Second Law of Thermodynamics

Rolling down hill? Your reference shows nothing of the sort. Are you referring to the picture of a waterfall flowing down? You need to read what you cited.

.

 

[jc456]

And still doesn't suggest that energy exchange is a two way process.

Entropy allows the exchange of radiation as long as entropy increases between the initial and final state of a system. It doesn't disallow radiation exchange.

.entropy is the process of energy rolling down hill......

Second Law of Thermodynamics

Rolling down hill? Your reference shows nothing of the sort. Are you referring to the picture of a waterfall flowing down? You need to read what you cited.

.

show us that example. you know, that observed piece.

 

[SSDD]

Your link has four areas covered by the SLoT. Your definition goes to the refrigeration section which then states-

You think that there are special physics at work that only apply to refrigerators?

It is important to note that when it is stated that energy will not spontaneously flow from a cold object to a hot object, that statement is referring to net transfer of energy. Energy can transfer from the cold object to the hot object either by transfer of energetic particles or electromagnetic radiation, but the net transfer will be from the hot object to the cold object in any spontaneous process. Work is required to transfer net energy to the hot object

I note that that statement is a footnote....it isn't found in the statement of the second law that they provide...it is an opinion, not supported by observed measured evidence...if it were, then it would be within the statement of the second law.

Why do your links always end up as evidence for my position?

They don't....it is your willingness to reinterpret what is said to whatever it needs to say to support you that gives you that impression.

 

[SSDD]

Got any observed, measured evidence? Actual evidence I mean...that would be observations and measurements made with an instrument at ambient temperature?

Didn't think so.

Evaporation. You say energy will never move to an already 'warm' particle but evaporation is the end result of random collisions that impart sufficient speed to an H2O molecule so that it can break free from the liquid, taking its energy with it.

And is the area that it has broken free from warmer or cooler than region it has moved to? Obviously the air is cooler...energy only moves from warmer regions to cooler regions. Sorry ian...evaporation is not an example of energy moving spontaneously from a cool region to a warmer region.

 

[SSDD]

For any spontaneous reaction to occur, something had to reduce entropy (add order) between two areas in the first place.

Earth systems are 'powered' by the entropy increase when highly ordered sunlight comes in but disordered infrared leaves. The same amount of energy goes in both directions.

The ask was the corona and science doesn’t know why the corona is warmer than the surface

Nobody here cares why the corona is warmer.

We care about SSDD's moronic claim that photons can't move from cooler matter to warmer matter.
Do you agree with his moronic claim?
If you do, explain why cooler matter on the Sun's surface can radiate toward the hotter corona.

Nobody here cares why the corona is warmer
Dude, you bring it up almost monthly over the last two years

He brings it up because for some reason he believes the fact that the corona is hotter than the surface that it is an example of energy moving spontaneously from a cooler region to a warmer region. There is no suggestion anywhere that that is the case, but it is what he believes...like he believes that the thermosphere of the earth is a warmer region than the surface of the earth even though you would freeze to death there in moments...sure the individual molecules are very warm, but they are so far apart that you would freeze before you even encounter one of them.

He likes to claim that others have nutty ideas, but those two are off of the top shelf of the nutty ideas store...and then there is the fact that no physical law says that he is correct while the mother of all physical laws, the second law of thermodynamics supports what he calls my nutty idea.

Be definitive. Are you saying that yes, the corona stops some photons from being emitted from the surface. But that the corona is too rarified to cast much of a shadow because the remaining radiation slips through the gaps.

Be specific for a change.

I am saying that science, in no way ever suggested that the corona is an example of energy moving from a cooler region to a warmer region...Toddster holds up the same argument regarding the thermosphere on earth...suggesting that energy from the surface moving through the thermosphere is an example of energy spontaneously moving from a cooler surface to a warmer thermosphere...he is ignorant of the fact that you would freeze to death in the thermosphere should you find yourself there with out protective gear because the molecules are so far apart, that there isn't really any heat there in spite of the fact that individual molecules may be very "hot".

I am simply pointing out that science isn't making the claim that the corona of the sun is an example of energy moving spontaneously from a cool region to a warm region as he believes.

 

[SSDD]

He brings it up because for some reason he believes the fact that the corona is hotter than the surface that it is an example of energy moving spontaneously from a cooler region to a warmer region.

You could explain why it isn't spontaneous. Or you could run away......again.

He once said something to the effect that no process is spontaneous if it involved prior work or if it were man-made. He also said that the sun is not spontaneous, but involves work.

In essence, that would mean nothing is spontaneous. I challenged him once to name a spontaneous process that involved no prior work and he ran away.


.

Spontaneous process is defined as a process that will occur without any energy input from the surroundings. It is a process that will occur on its own.

I never ran from you as much as you would like to believe it to be so...I merely tired of the tedium of trying to explain that simple definition to you in even simpler terms. If any energy input from the surroundings assist a process...it is not spontaneous...sorry that the definition gets in the way of what you choose to believe.

 

[SSDD]

For any spontaneous reaction to occur, something had to reduce entropy (add order) between two areas in the first place.

Earth systems are 'powered' by the entropy increase when highly ordered sunlight comes in but disordered infrared leaves. The same amount of energy goes in both directions.

Energy only moves from warm to cool...perhaps you could petition to get the second law of thermodynamics rewritten so that it agrees with you. Let me know how that works out for you.

It was rewritten a hundred years ago. Here s the first google description-
"The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system can never decrease over time. The total entropy of a system and its surroundings can remain constant in ideal cases where the system is in thermodynamicequilibrium, or is undergoing a (fictive) reversible process"

I didnt look very hard but I didn't even see your definition. Could you provide a link?

And still doesn't suggest that energy exchange is a two way process...entropy is the process of energy rolling down hill...and all natural processes are irreversible.

Second Law of Thermodynamics

Your link has four areas covered by the SLoT. Your definition goes to the refrigeration section which then states-

It is important to note that when it is stated that energy will not spontaneously flow from a cold object to a hot object, that statement is referring to net transfer of energy. Energy can transfer from the cold object to the hot object either by transfer of energetic particles or electromagnetic radiation, but the net transfer will be from the hot object to the cold object in any spontaneous process. Work is required to transfer net energy to the hot object

Why do your links always end up as evidence for my position?

says heat transfer.... Restricts the direction of!!!!

They want and need so badly for energy to move spontaneously in both directions....There is a reason that minds such as Maxwell, Clausius, and Carnot said that the temperature of the atmosphere is due to pressure, atmospheric mass, and conduction rather than radiation...

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The ask was the corona and science doesn’t know why the corona is warmer than the surface

Nobody here cares why the corona is warmer.

We care about SSDD's moronic claim that photons can't move from cooler matter to warmer matter.
Do you agree with his moronic claim?
If you do, explain why cooler matter on the Sun's surface can radiate toward the hotter corona.

Nobody here cares why the corona is warmer
Dude, you bring it up almost monthly over the last two years

He brings it up because for some reason he believes the fact that the corona is hotter than the surface that it is an example of energy moving spontaneously from a cooler region to a warmer region. There is no suggestion anywhere that that is the case, but it is what he believes...like he believes that the thermosphere of the earth is a warmer region than the surface of the earth even though you would freeze to death there in moments...sure the individual molecules are very warm, but they are so far apart that you would freeze before you even encounter one of them.

He likes to claim that others have nutty ideas, but those two are off of the top shelf of the nutty ideas store...and then there is the fact that no physical law says that he is correct while the mother of all physical laws, the second law of thermodynamics supports what he calls my nutty idea.

He brings it up because for some reason he believes the fact that the corona is hotter than the surface that it is an example of energy moving spontaneously from a cooler region to a warmer region.

You could explain why it isn't spontaneous. Or you could run away......again.

when the experts figure it out. name one scientist that says it's spontaneous.

The Sun shining isn't spontaneous?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

For any spontaneous reaction to occur, something had to reduce entropy (add order) between two areas in the first place.

Earth systems are 'powered' by the entropy increase when highly ordered sunlight comes in but disordered infrared leaves. The same amount of energy goes in both directions.

Energy only moves from warm to cool...perhaps you could petition to get the second law of thermodynamics rewritten so that it agrees with you. Let me know how that works out for you.

It was rewritten a hundred years ago. Here s the first google description-
"The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system can never decrease over time. The total entropy of a system and its surroundings can remain constant in ideal cases where the system is in thermodynamicequilibrium, or is undergoing a (fictive) reversible process"

I didnt look very hard but I didn't even see your definition. Could you provide a link?

And still doesn't suggest that energy exchange is a two way process...entropy is the process of energy rolling down hill...and all natural processes are irreversible.

Second Law of Thermodynamics

Your link has four areas covered by the SLoT. Your definition goes to the refrigeration section which then states-

It is important to note that when it is stated that energy will not spontaneously flow from a cold object to a hot object, that statement is referring to net transfer of energy. Energy can transfer from the cold object to the hot object either by transfer of energetic particles or electromagnetic radiation, but the net transfer will be from the hot object to the cold object in any spontaneous process. Work is required to transfer net energy to the hot object

Why do your links always end up as evidence for my position?

says heat transfer.... Restricts the direction of!!!!

I don't see the word "photon" in that diagram......

 

[jc456]

Nobody here cares why the corona is warmer.

We care about SSDD's moronic claim that photons can't move from cooler matter to warmer matter.
Do you agree with his moronic claim?
If you do, explain why cooler matter on the Sun's surface can radiate toward the hotter corona.

Nobody here cares why the corona is warmer
Dude, you bring it up almost monthly over the last two years

He brings it up because for some reason he believes the fact that the corona is hotter than the surface that it is an example of energy moving spontaneously from a cooler region to a warmer region. There is no suggestion anywhere that that is the case, but it is what he believes...like he believes that the thermosphere of the earth is a warmer region than the surface of the earth even though you would freeze to death there in moments...sure the individual molecules are very warm, but they are so far apart that you would freeze before you even encounter one of them.

He likes to claim that others have nutty ideas, but those two are off of the top shelf of the nutty ideas store...and then there is the fact that no physical law says that he is correct while the mother of all physical laws, the second law of thermodynamics supports what he calls my nutty idea.

He brings it up because for some reason he believes the fact that the corona is hotter than the surface that it is an example of energy moving spontaneously from a cooler region to a warmer region.

You could explain why it isn't spontaneous. Or you could run away......again.

when the experts figure it out. name one scientist that says it's spontaneous.

The Sun shining isn't spontaneous?

is it?

 

[jc456]

Energy only moves from warm to cool...perhaps you could petition to get the second law of thermodynamics rewritten so that it agrees with you. Let me know how that works out for you.

It was rewritten a hundred years ago. Here s the first google description-
"The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system can never decrease over time. The total entropy of a system and its surroundings can remain constant in ideal cases where the system is in thermodynamicequilibrium, or is undergoing a (fictive) reversible process"

I didnt look very hard but I didn't even see your definition. Could you provide a link?

And still doesn't suggest that energy exchange is a two way process...entropy is the process of energy rolling down hill...and all natural processes are irreversible.

Second Law of Thermodynamics

Your link has four areas covered by the SLoT. Your definition goes to the refrigeration section which then states-

It is important to note that when it is stated that energy will not spontaneously flow from a cold object to a hot object, that statement is referring to net transfer of energy. Energy can transfer from the cold object to the hot object either by transfer of energetic particles or electromagnetic radiation, but the net transfer will be from the hot object to the cold object in any spontaneous process. Work is required to transfer net energy to the hot object

Why do your links always end up as evidence for my position?

says heat transfer.... Restricts the direction of!!!!

I don't see the word "photon" in that diagram......

nope it doesn't. It concerns heat and transfer of it. you wish to prove photons move, show observed two way flow. I'm all game here.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The ask was the corona and science doesn’t know why the corona is warmer than the surface

Nobody here cares why the corona is warmer.

We care about SSDD's moronic claim that photons can't move from cooler matter to warmer matter.
Do you agree with his moronic claim?
If you do, explain why cooler matter on the Sun's surface can radiate toward the hotter corona.

Nobody here cares why the corona is warmer
Dude, you bring it up almost monthly over the last two years

He brings it up because for some reason he believes the fact that the corona is hotter than the surface that it is an example of energy moving spontaneously from a cooler region to a warmer region. There is no suggestion anywhere that that is the case, but it is what he believes...like he believes that the thermosphere of the earth is a warmer region than the surface of the earth even though you would freeze to death there in moments...sure the individual molecules are very warm, but they are so far apart that you would freeze before you even encounter one of them.

He likes to claim that others have nutty ideas, but those two are off of the top shelf of the nutty ideas store...and then there is the fact that no physical law says that he is correct while the mother of all physical laws, the second law of thermodynamics supports what he calls my nutty idea.

Be definitive. Are you saying that yes, the corona stops some photons from being emitted from the surface. But that the corona is too rarified to cast much of a shadow because the remaining radiation slips through the gaps.

Be specific for a change.

I am saying that science, in no way ever suggested that the corona is an example of energy moving from a cooler region to a warmer region...Toddster holds up the same argument regarding the thermosphere on earth...suggesting that energy from the surface moving through the thermosphere is an example of energy spontaneously moving from a cooler surface to a warmer thermosphere...he is ignorant of the fact that you would freeze to death in the thermosphere should you find yourself there with out protective gear because the molecules are so far apart, that there isn't really any heat there in spite of the fact that individual molecules may be very "hot".

I am simply pointing out that science isn't making the claim that the corona of the sun is an example of energy moving spontaneously from a cool region to a warm region as he believes.

I am simply pointing out that science isn't making the claim that the corona of the sun is an example of energy moving spontaneously from a cool region to a warm region

Still running away...….

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Nobody here cares why the corona is warmer
Dude, you bring it up almost monthly over the last two years

He brings it up because for some reason he believes the fact that the corona is hotter than the surface that it is an example of energy moving spontaneously from a cooler region to a warmer region. There is no suggestion anywhere that that is the case, but it is what he believes...like he believes that the thermosphere of the earth is a warmer region than the surface of the earth even though you would freeze to death there in moments...sure the individual molecules are very warm, but they are so far apart that you would freeze before you even encounter one of them.

He likes to claim that others have nutty ideas, but those two are off of the top shelf of the nutty ideas store...and then there is the fact that no physical law says that he is correct while the mother of all physical laws, the second law of thermodynamics supports what he calls my nutty idea.

He brings it up because for some reason he believes the fact that the corona is hotter than the surface that it is an example of energy moving spontaneously from a cooler region to a warmer region.

You could explain why it isn't spontaneous. Or you could run away......again.

when the experts figure it out. name one scientist that says it's spontaneous.

The Sun shining isn't spontaneous?

is it?

You don't know? Ask SSDD.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It was rewritten a hundred years ago. Here s the first google description-
"The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system can never decrease over time. The total entropy of a system and its surroundings can remain constant in ideal cases where the system is in thermodynamicequilibrium, or is undergoing a (fictive) reversible process"

I didnt look very hard but I didn't even see your definition. Could you provide a link?

And still doesn't suggest that energy exchange is a two way process...entropy is the process of energy rolling down hill...and all natural processes are irreversible.

Second Law of Thermodynamics

Your link has four areas covered by the SLoT. Your definition goes to the refrigeration section which then states-

It is important to note that when it is stated that energy will not spontaneously flow from a cold object to a hot object, that statement is referring to net transfer of energy. Energy can transfer from the cold object to the hot object either by transfer of energetic particles or electromagnetic radiation, but the net transfer will be from the hot object to the cold object in any spontaneous process. Work is required to transfer net energy to the hot object

Why do your links always end up as evidence for my position?

says heat transfer.... Restricts the direction of!!!!

I don't see the word "photon" in that diagram......

nope it doesn't. It concerns heat and transfer of it. you wish to prove photons move, show observed two way flow. I'm all game here.

you wish to prove photons move,

Photons don't move?

 

[IanC]

I am simply pointing out that science isn't making the claim that the corona of the sun is an example of energy moving spontaneously from a cool region to a warm region as he believes.

You are the one who said photons cannot be emitted in the direction towards a warmer object. Repeatedly.

Why is the Sun's surface visible if it cannot radiate outwards towards the corona? That is Todd's question, although it has been repeated so often that it is meaningless. If you ever gave him a cogent answer, I must have missed it.

Why does the Sun's surface emit towards the hotter corona, contradicting your bizarroland interpretation of the second law? Be specific.

 

[IanC]

It was rewritten a hundred years ago. Here s the first google description-
"The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system can never decrease over time. The total entropy of a system and its surroundings can remain constant in ideal cases where the system is in thermodynamicequilibrium, or is undergoing a (fictive) reversible process"

I didnt look very hard but I didn't even see your definition. Could you provide a link?

And still doesn't suggest that energy exchange is a two way process...entropy is the process of energy rolling down hill...and all natural processes are irreversible.

Second Law of Thermodynamics

Your link has four areas covered by the SLoT. Your definition goes to the refrigeration section which then states-

It is important to note that when it is stated that energy will not spontaneously flow from a cold object to a hot object, that statement is referring to net transfer of energy. Energy can transfer from the cold object to the hot object either by transfer of energetic particles or electromagnetic radiation, but the net transfer will be from the hot object to the cold object in any spontaneous process. Work is required to transfer net energy to the hot object

Why do your links always end up as evidence for my position?

says heat transfer.... Restricts the direction of!!!!

I don't see the word "photon" in that diagram......

They assume that those looking at it have at least a 3rd grade education...do you think a photon is something other than energy?

I see three branches; heat, heat transfer, and entropy. None of them mentions energy let alone photons.

 

[jc456]

He brings it up because for some reason he believes the fact that the corona is hotter than the surface that it is an example of energy moving spontaneously from a cooler region to a warmer region. There is no suggestion anywhere that that is the case, but it is what he believes...like he believes that the thermosphere of the earth is a warmer region than the surface of the earth even though you would freeze to death there in moments...sure the individual molecules are very warm, but they are so far apart that you would freeze before you even encounter one of them.

He likes to claim that others have nutty ideas, but those two are off of the top shelf of the nutty ideas store...and then there is the fact that no physical law says that he is correct while the mother of all physical laws, the second law of thermodynamics supports what he calls my nutty idea.

He brings it up because for some reason he believes the fact that the corona is hotter than the surface that it is an example of energy moving spontaneously from a cooler region to a warmer region.

You could explain why it isn't spontaneous. Or you could run away......again.

when the experts figure it out. name one scientist that says it's spontaneous.

The Sun shining isn't spontaneous?

is it?

You don't know? Ask SSDD.

you implied you knew when science doesn't. so what is it?

 

[jc456]

And still doesn't suggest that energy exchange is a two way process...entropy is the process of energy rolling down hill...and all natural processes are irreversible.

Second Law of Thermodynamics

Your link has four areas covered by the SLoT. Your definition goes to the refrigeration section which then states-

It is important to note that when it is stated that energy will not spontaneously flow from a cold object to a hot object, that statement is referring to net transfer of energy. Energy can transfer from the cold object to the hot object either by transfer of energetic particles or electromagnetic radiation, but the net transfer will be from the hot object to the cold object in any spontaneous process. Work is required to transfer net energy to the hot object

Why do your links always end up as evidence for my position?

says heat transfer.... Restricts the direction of!!!!

I don't see the word "photon" in that diagram......

nope it doesn't. It concerns heat and transfer of it. you wish to prove photons move, show observed two way flow. I'm all game here.

you wish to prove photons move,

Photons don't move?

do they? post up the observed photon movement

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

He brings it up because for some reason he believes the fact that the corona is hotter than the surface that it is an example of energy moving spontaneously from a cooler region to a warmer region.

You could explain why it isn't spontaneous. Or you could run away......again.

when the experts figure it out. name one scientist that says it's spontaneous.

The Sun shining isn't spontaneous?

is it?

You don't know? Ask SSDD.

you implied you knew when science doesn't. so what is it?

I know the Sun's surface shines toward the hotter corona.
That seems to contradict SSDD's claims about the 2nd Law.