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The point is it didn't bother the Right while Bush was doing it and up until now the Right was having a shit fit on the possibility that Obama might weaken the Patriot Act. Now suddenly the P A is worse than Hitler.
Here is Heritage.org asking that Section 215 be made permanent in 2011.
After Bin Laden: Support the PATRIOT Act
Osama bin Ladens death was undoubtedly a major victory for the United States and civilized society. The War on Terrorism, however, is not overal-Qaeda and other terrorist groups will continue to stage plots against the United States, as they have done at least 39 times since 9/11. Successful counterterrorism policies, capable of stopping these threats before they materialize, require tools that empower counterterrorism and law enforcement investigators to track down leads, including in local communities.
Those tools include two provisions of the PATRIOT Act and one in the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004, which provide national security investigators with more extensive means to prevent acts of terrorism. Congress and the Administration should ensure that these tools are made a permanent piece of the nations counterterrorism policy.
2. Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act: Business Record Orders under FISA. Domestic prosecutors routinely rely on business records and other concrete evidence to prove a wide variety of criminal charges from simple theft to homicide. Law enforcement, working with local prosecutors, acquires this evidence throughout the course of an investigation, often through the use of a subpoena. However, national security agents did not have the same authority to acquire similar evidence prior to the passage of Section 215. They had to obtain a court order and were limited to those records held by a business that was a common carrier, public accommodation facility, physical storage facility or vehicle rental facility.
Section 215 eliminated those arbitrary, dangerously narrow and self-limiting provisions but required that the records sought are relevant to an authorized investigation. However, unlike a standard prosecutor-issued subpoena, or even a grand jury subpoena, an order issued under Section 215 requires FISA court approval. In other words, Congress inserted a federal judge between investigators and potential suspects. Furthermore, the law requires substantial congressional oversight.
This provision allows law enforcement, with approval from the FISA court, to require disclosure of documents and other records from businesses and other institutions without a suspects knowledge. Third-party recipients of Section 215 orders can appeal the order to the FISA court.
Section 215 further protects civil liberties by requiring additional approval for document requests that might have the slightest relation to freedom of speech and expression, such as library records.
As Wainstein testified, There is no reason to return to the days when it is easier for prosecutors to secure records in a simple assault prosecution than for national security investigators to obtain records that may help prevent the next 9/11.
Bull shit
Monday 29 August 2005
Patriot Act Support Shrinks with Increased Info
I agree. Way back when, this seemed reasonable to me:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/middle-east-general/1339-something-to-think-about.html#post14040
I'm pretty certain that I later said that while protecting the people was #1, there should be a sundown on the Patriot Act.
I'll state right now, don't think that the idea is wrong for the times we live in, but the accountability and broad scope are more than out of control. There must be a way to cut wheat from chaff, and destroy the irrelevant.
One only needs to look at what the IRS has done, then magnify it with 'terrorism' labeling.
Gee, for months now the Right has been telling us that the administration tried to hide what happened in Benghazi because they were trying to pretend that the war on terror was over, and they'd won.
NOW, the Right is telling us the war on terror is over, which is why we don't need the measures allowed in the Patriot Act, etc.
Flip flop!!
I agree. Way back when, this seemed reasonable to me:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/middle-east-general/1339-something-to-think-about.html#post14040
I'm pretty certain that I later said that while protecting the people was #1, there should be a sundown on the Patriot Act.
I'll state right now, don't think that the idea is wrong for the times we live in, but the accountability and broad scope are more than out of control. There must be a way to cut wheat from chaff, and destroy the irrelevant.
One only needs to look at what the IRS has done, then magnify it with 'terrorism' labeling.
Thanks for the laugh. I predicted when so many of you gave up your freedom in support of the Patriot Act that you would not like it when a Democrat was in office. And here you've proven my point in spades.
That's what comes of being married to your own ideology.
In 2007, then SENATOR Obama expressed an intent to LIMIT the use of National Security Letters and resort to the provisions of the Patriot Act.
What happened?
Wanna read something funny? Obama's words in 2008:
Found at Barack Obama - Homeland Security look for the sub-topic 2008 Campaign Event - PATRIOT Act then click the hyperlink.But I want everyone to understand, I taught constitutional law for ten years, I take the constitution very seriously. The biggest problems we\'re facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through congress at all and that\'s what I intend to reverse when I am President of the United States of America.
He "taught" con. Law? Sort of.
HE takes the Constitution "very seriously?" Apparently NOT.
BRINGING more power to the Executive branch is a BAD thing? Then why the fuck is Obama DOING it? Or maybe it's only "bad" in his pin head when it was Booooosh doing it (allegedly).
He has BEEN President for 4 and a half fucking years. WHEN exactly is the dipshit planning on this alleged "reversal" that supposedly intended to do?
.
In 2007, then SENATOR Obama expressed an intent to LIMIT the use of National Security Letters and resort to the provisions of the Patriot Act.
What happened?
Wanna read something funny? Obama's words in 2008:
Found at Barack Obama - Homeland Security look for the sub-topic 2008 Campaign Event - PATRIOT Act then click the hyperlink.But I want everyone to understand, I taught constitutional law for ten years, I take the constitution very seriously. The biggest problems we\'re facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through congress at all and that\'s what I intend to reverse when I am President of the United States of America.
He "taught" con. Law? Sort of.
HE takes the Constitution "very seriously?" Apparently NOT.
BRINGING more power to the Executive branch is a BAD thing? Then why the fuck is Obama DOING it? Or maybe it's only "bad" in his pin head when it was Booooosh doing it (allegedly).
He has BEEN President for 4 and a half fucking years. WHEN exactly is the dipshit planning on this alleged "reversal" that supposedly intended to do?
.
He'll get right on it after he shuts down GITMO.....
probably the same number as when Bush did it.Who are you calling that makes you so paranoid?
Better question.
How many millions of calls placed with Verizon by American citizens on a daily basis would you believe are terror related for this big of a secret sweep?
What's funny is, Google is collecting more information on you every minute you're on this website than any government agency is doing with your stupid phone records.
Of course that's okay with the inmates, because Google is a corporation.
What's funny is, Google is collecting more information on you every minute you're on this website than any government agency is doing with your stupid phone records.
Of course that's okay with the inmates, because Google is a corporation.
Google isn't buying 1 billion rounds of hollow point ammunition either you fucking tool
I agree. Way back when, this seemed reasonable to me:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/middle-east-general/1339-something-to-think-about.html#post14040
I'm pretty certain that I later said that while protecting the people was #1, there should be a sundown on the Patriot Act.
I'll state right now, don't think that the idea is wrong for the times we live in, but the accountability and broad scope are more than out of control. There must be a way to cut wheat from chaff, and destroy the irrelevant.
One only needs to look at what the IRS has done, then magnify it with 'terrorism' labeling.
Thanks for the laugh. I predicted when so many of you gave up your freedom in support of the Patriot Act that you would not like it when a Democrat was in office. And here you've proven my point in spades.
That's what comes of being married to your own ideology.
Well Ravi if you use your noggin for something other then a hat rack for that gender bender hat on your avatar,
you'll realize that when they implemented the PA we had just been attacked by terrorist so it actually made some sense. And I was rightfully concerned with the possibility of abuse.
Now you have obama expanding it when he just said terrorism is on the run and
were back to a pre 9/11 threat levels.
So which is it? Are we safer? Or is he lying so he looks better?
And when you add obamas abuse of power with the IRS and other alphabet agencies?
He's the last person I want snooping in my business!!
The Patriot Act needs to go,or at least be severely curtailed.
But does anyone here think they would actually stop even if they did get rid of it?
I dont.
In 2007, then SENATOR Obama expressed an intent to LIMIT the use of National Security Letters and resort to the provisions of the Patriot Act.
What happened?
Wanna read something funny? Obama's words in 2008:
Found at Barack Obama - Homeland Security look for the sub-topic 2008 Campaign Event - PATRIOT Act then click the hyperlink.But I want everyone to understand, I taught constitutional law for ten years, I take the constitution very seriously. The biggest problems we\'re facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through congress at all and that\'s what I intend to reverse when I am President of the United States of America.
He "taught" con. Law? Sort of.
HE takes the Constitution "very seriously?" Apparently NOT.
BRINGING more power to the Executive branch is a BAD thing? Then why the fuck is Obama DOING it? Or maybe it's only "bad" in his pin head when it was Booooosh doing it (allegedly).
He has BEEN President for 4 and a half fucking years. WHEN exactly is the dipshit planning on this alleged "reversal" that supposedly intended to do?
.
He'll get right on it after he shuts down GITMO.....
You didn't seem to mind that Bush sent so many thousands to die needlessly by attacking the wrong target yet now you are upset because some members if the IRS acted badly.I agree. Way back when, this seemed reasonable to me:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/middle-east-general/1339-something-to-think-about.html#post14040
I'm pretty certain that I later said that while protecting the people was #1, there should be a sundown on the Patriot Act.
I'll state right now, don't think that the idea is wrong for the times we live in, but the accountability and broad scope are more than out of control. There must be a way to cut wheat from chaff, and destroy the irrelevant.
One only needs to look at what the IRS has done, then magnify it with 'terrorism' labeling.
Thanks for the laugh. I predicted when so many of you gave up your freedom in support of the Patriot Act that you would not like it when a Democrat was in office. And here you've proven my point in spades.
That's what comes of being married to your own ideology.
Well Ravi if you use your noggin for something other then a hat rack for that gender bender hat on your avatar,
you'll realize that when they implemented the PA we had just been attacked by terrorist so it actually made some sense. And I was rightfully concerned with the possibility of abuse.
Now you have obama expanding it when he just said terrorism is on the run and
were back to a pre 9/11 threat levels.
So which is it? Are we safer? Or is he lying so he looks better?
And when you add obamas abuse of power with the IRS and other alphabet agencies?
He's the last person I want snooping in my business!!
The Patriot Act needs to go,or at least be severely curtailed.
But does anyone here think they would actually stop even if they did get rid of it?
I dont.
In 2007, then SENATOR Obama expressed an intent to LIMIT the use of National Security Letters and resort to the provisions of the Patriot Act.
What happened?
Wanna read something funny? Obama's words in 2008:
Found at Barack Obama - Homeland Security look for the sub-topic 2008 Campaign Event - PATRIOT Act then click the hyperlink.
He "taught" con. Law? Sort of.
HE takes the Constitution "very seriously?" Apparently NOT.
BRINGING more power to the Executive branch is a BAD thing? Then why the fuck is Obama DOING it? Or maybe it's only "bad" in his pin head when it was Booooosh doing it (allegedly).
He has BEEN President for 4 and a half fucking years. WHEN exactly is the dipshit planning on this alleged "reversal" that supposedly intended to do?
.
He'll get right on it after he shuts down GITMO.....
Again, it is not the President keeping GITMO opened. HE signed an EO to close it. Congress stopped it.
You didn't seem to mind that Bush sent so many thousands to die needlessly by attacking the wrong target yet now you are upset because some members if the IRS acted badly.Thanks for the laugh. I predicted when so many of you gave up your freedom in support of the Patriot Act that you would not like it when a Democrat was in office. And here you've proven my point in spades.
That's what comes of being married to your own ideology.
Well Ravi if you use your noggin for something other then a hat rack for that gender bender hat on your avatar,
you'll realize that when they implemented the PA we had just been attacked by terrorist so it actually made some sense. And I was rightfully concerned with the possibility of abuse.
Now you have obama expanding it when he just said terrorism is on the run and
were back to a pre 9/11 threat levels.
So which is it? Are we safer? Or is he lying so he looks better?
And when you add obamas abuse of power with the IRS and other alphabet agencies?
He's the last person I want snooping in my business!!
The Patriot Act needs to go,or at least be severely curtailed.
But does anyone here think they would actually stop even if they did get rid of it?
I dont.
Priceless.
As to will it go? Of course not. No president, democrat or republican or even libertarian would ever give up any power granted to them.
Apparently you don't see that sending thousands of soldiers to die with no valid reason is a form of tyranny.You didn't seem to mind that Bush sent so many thousands to die needlessly by attacking the wrong target yet now you are upset because some members if the IRS acted badly.Well Ravi if you use your noggin for something other then a hat rack for that gender bender hat on your avatar,
you'll realize that when they implemented the PA we had just been attacked by terrorist so it actually made some sense. And I was rightfully concerned with the possibility of abuse.
Now you have obama expanding it when he just said terrorism is on the run and
were back to a pre 9/11 threat levels.
So which is it? Are we safer? Or is he lying so he looks better?
And when you add obamas abuse of power with the IRS and other alphabet agencies?
He's the last person I want snooping in my business!!
The Patriot Act needs to go,or at least be severely curtailed.
But does anyone here think they would actually stop even if they did get rid of it?
I dont.
Priceless.
As to will it go? Of course not. No president, democrat or republican or even libertarian would ever give up any power granted to them.
Fighting in the middle east is way different then tyranny at home.
Dont really see how you can compare the two.
And to throw something out there that dems voted for is kinda stupid.
The NSA is targeting numbers dialed from the U.S. to known or suspected terrorists overseas. Who are you calling that makes you so paranoid?
It's sad to know that you believe that.
Who are you calling that makes you so paranoid?
Not a conspiracy theory. It's really happening. The Guardian has a copy of the court order.
I'd heard this on Levin earlier and checked it out. The Guardian (left wing Brit newspaper) is reporting that the NSA is secretly collecting millions of Verizon subscribers phone records.
Check this out.
Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily
Exclusive: Top secret court order requiring Verizon to hand over all call data shows scale of domestic surveillance under Obama
The National Security Agency is currently collecting the telephone records of millions of US customers of Verizon, one of America's largest telecoms providers, under a top secret court order issued in April.
The order, a copy of which has been obtained by the Guardian, requires Verizon on an "ongoing, daily basis" to give the NSA information on all telephone calls in its systems, both within the US and between the US and other countries.
The document shows for the first time that under the Obama administration the communication records of millions of US citizens are being collected indiscriminately and in bulk regardless of whether they are suspected of any wrongdoing.
The secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (Fisa) granted the order to the FBI on April 25, giving the government unlimited authority to obtain the data for a specified three-month period ending on July 19.
Under the terms of the blanket order, the numbers of both parties on a call are handed over, as is location data, call duration, unique identifiers, and the time and duration of all calls. The contents of the conversation itself are not covered.
The disclosure is likely to reignite longstanding debates in the US over the proper extent of the government's domestic spying powers.
Under the Bush administration, officials in security agencies had disclosed to reporters the large-scale collection of call records data by the NSA, but this is the first time significant and top-secret documents have revealed the continuation of the practice on a massive scale under President Obama.
The unlimited nature of the records being handed over to the NSA is extremely unusual. Fisa court orders typically direct the production of records pertaining to a specific named target who is suspected of being an agent of a terrorist group or foreign state, or a finite set of individually named targets.
The Guardian approached the National Security Agency, the White House and the Department of Justice for comment in advance of publication on Wednesday.
All declined. The agencies were also offered the opportunity to raise specific security concerns regarding the publication of the court order.
The court order expressly bars Verizon from disclosing to the public either the existence of the FBI's request for its customers' records, or the court order itself.
More at link:
Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily | World news | The Guardian
So by that logic, all verizon customers are potential terrorists? What?Who are you calling that makes you so paranoid?
Better question.
How many millions of calls placed with Verizon by American citizens on a daily basis would you believe are terror related for this big of a secret sweep?
How is this a better question? How would I know that?
The NSA is collecting numbers to see a pattern of calls to know terrorists. If a pattern develops, the NSA obtains a court order to obtain the name and address of the individual making the calls. Isn't the NSA doing their job?
