Obama Activates 50 year old Aircraft to Fight ISIL

[westwall]

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Enough with you.

"I was reclassified....and shipped to the States within 24 hours"

For folks reading this that don't know, in Air Force parlance, he got fired for being incompetent. A FAC's first and foremost job is to know where the friendlies are AT ALL TIMES. Being yanked out of theater and shipped home within 24 hours in time of war denotes a serious screw up--and not the first.

You are assuming that it happened in Vietnam. Wrong. It was part of our own little war to the west of Vietnam where the Army and Marines were not invited. Those grunts weren't supposed to be there. If you knew anything about the terrain then you would know that you could be 10 yds away and not be aware of the other person. My vantage point was to see up the Trail, not down the trail. Something I was told over and over while being asigned to a Shrink stateside, "They weren't supposed to be there, it wasn't your fault". Yes, I was fired from that job. But not long after that I made two grades on minimum time and got two cream assignments. Officially, I wasn't supposed to be there either. But the AF Command Post knew I was. How the hell could anyone foresee this event. None of us knew for certain that the convoy was going to be either. Luck was involved. In the Army, I would have been part of the 50% club and seperated. The AF didn't play that stupid game. If we could be fixed we got fixed. The AF Doctors didn't really understand PTSD yet but we could not be seperated even had we wanted to be. As far as I can see, the Army is still playing the 50% club game and that should be criminal.

Let me be blunt, I notice your nym is willie pete. That's an Army's common term. That means you were NOT USAF. You can try and squirm on that one but WP rounds are only used in the USAF on Gunships and only on specific missions. Those little excursions were too many and sometimes on purpose. While the AF was overlooked by the news media, there were too many news reports of the Army crossing the border. Direct result was, Kent State and the denouncement of the War by Walter Kronkite. Slick Move, there Exlacs.

In a word....bullshit. I actually know Raven 2. What you are asserting simply did not, and could not happen. You are sounding more and more like a Walter Mitty type every day.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Enough with you.

"I was reclassified....and shipped to the States within 24 hours"

For folks reading this that don't know, in Air Force parlance, he got fired for being incompetent. A FAC's first and foremost job is to know where the friendlies are AT ALL TIMES. Being yanked out of theater and shipped home within 24 hours in time of war denotes a serious screw up--and not the first.

You are assuming that it happened in Vietnam. Wrong. It was part of our own little war to the west of Vietnam where the Army and Marines were not invited. Those grunts weren't supposed to be there. If you knew anything about the terrain then you would know that you could be 10 yds away and not be aware of the other person. My vantage point was to see up the Trail, not down the trail. Something I was told over and over while being asigned to a Shrink stateside, "They weren't supposed to be there, it wasn't your fault". Yes, I was fired from that job. But not long after that I made two grades on minimum time and got two cream assignments. Officially, I wasn't supposed to be there either. But the AF Command Post knew I was. How the hell could anyone foresee this event. None of us knew for certain that the convoy was going to be either. Luck was involved. In the Army, I would have been part of the 50% club and seperated. The AF didn't play that stupid game. If we could be fixed we got fixed. The AF Doctors didn't really understand PTSD yet but we could not be seperated even had we wanted to be. As far as I can see, the Army is still playing the 50% club game and that should be criminal.

Let me be blunt, I notice your nym is willie pete. That's an Army's common term. That means you were NOT USAF. You can try and squirm on that one but WP rounds are only used in the USAF on Gunships and only on specific missions. Those little excursions were too many and sometimes on purpose. While the AF was overlooked by the news media, there were too many news reports of the Army crossing the border. Direct result was, Kent State and the denouncement of the War by Walter Kronkite. Slick Move, there Exlacs.

In a word....bullshit. I actually know Raven 2. What you are asserting simply did not, and could not happen. You are sounding more and more like a Walter Mitty type every day.

I knew more than a few Ravens. But I wasn't a raven. They took a leave of absense from the AF. We didn't. We were special operations and enlisted. Just quick in and quick out. Nothing real dangerous about it. No hero here.

And you still won't accept responsability for anything. You Grunts stepped over the line once to often and and caused a lot of grief both in SEA and the States. It got hot enough from you idiots that we were asked to leave by whatever government was temporarily in charge that day.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

^^^
“You speak an infinite deal of nothing.”
― William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice

You have no idea what you're talking about and you're not briefed in as to what's going on.

When did a ground bound support guy from a tanker unit become an expert on CAS?

"...it can actually land and pickup the Aircrew by itself in a Sandy operation. We haven't had that capability since the OV-10 was retired or the A1E was given away."

Step away from the video games. The SPAD was picking up downed aircrew from jungle paths and clearings in SEA?

Go out to the local airfield. Learn to fly. Gain some credibility. Then you can see how silly your posts are. No pilot would post your rubish.

Somewhere along the line, you convinced yourself you're an expert on something you know absolutely nothing about. You're making a fool of yourself.

I didn't say the Spad did it. I said it was capable to do it. And it had the space in the back since it was designed to carry 8 Paratroopers. The OV-10 could handle 5 or 6 paratroopers and even drop them. One of the mods that was considered was increasing the OV-10s Airframe to handle up to 10 Paratroopers and calling an Armed Transport. The OV-1 had the same capability. But you can't use this capability for Sandy Pickup in a Jungle and rice paddy environment. You can use this in the Middle East.

I suggest you get a copy of Janes and actually look up what you are harping about. Most of us old hands have a special fondness to the OVs.

The SPAD was the A-1 Skyraider, which was a Navy Korean War relic. It had a crew of one and carried no passengers. I think you are extremely confused.

Actually, there is one time that an A-1E landed and picked up a pilot. The Skyraider by many names did all kinds of things and was a single seater (AD-4), then there was the two seater, then the 3 seater (electronics, and more) and then there was the one I am listing below with the larger canopy. The AD-5 was adopted by the AF. It was given away by the Navy as they just got their newest toy, the A-4 and A-7. The AD-5/A1E had tandem seating with dual controls. In the back, it could handle all kinds of electronics and when it was empty, it could handle up to 10 passengers.

You must have read about the A-1A thru A-1D which were AD-4s.

Douglas A-1E Skyraider > National Museum of the US Air Force™ > Display

Skyraider, AD-5, A-1E pilot report

The A-1 was one of the most versatile aircraft ever to fly. Even one MOH winner flew one. Of course, he was using the fact that there was extra seating on the A-1E, the Enemy was closing too fast to get the Choppers and other A1-Es into play. So he dropped in, popped the canopy, the rescued pilot bailed in and he took off. His bird was shot to pieces and barely made it home. Of course, any other bird in that bad of shape would never have made it off the ground. The A-1E makes the A-10 look like paper meche for durability.

The part I am not buying is the 10 passenger bullshit.

^^^
“You speak an infinite deal of nothing.”
― William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice

You have no idea what you're talking about and you're not briefed in as to what's going on.

When did a ground bound support guy from a tanker unit become an expert on CAS?

"...it can actually land and pickup the Aircrew by itself in a Sandy operation. We haven't had that capability since the OV-10 was retired or the A1E was given away."

Step away from the video games. The SPAD was picking up downed aircrew from jungle paths and clearings in SEA?

Go out to the local airfield. Learn to fly. Gain some credibility. Then you can see how silly your posts are. No pilot would post your rubish.

Somewhere along the line, you convinced yourself you're an expert on something you know absolutely nothing about. You're making a fool of yourself.

I didn't say the Spad did it. I said it was capable to do it. And it had the space in the back since it was designed to carry 8 Paratroopers. The OV-10 could handle 5 or 6 paratroopers and even drop them. One of the mods that was considered was increasing the OV-10s Airframe to handle up to 10 Paratroopers and calling an Armed Transport. The OV-1 had the same capability. But you can't use this capability for Sandy Pickup in a Jungle and rice paddy environment. You can use this in the Middle East.

I suggest you get a copy of Janes and actually look up what you are harping about. Most of us old hands have a special fondness to the OVs.

The SPAD was the A-1 Skyraider, which was a Navy Korean War relic. It had a crew of one and carried no passengers. I think you are extremely confused.

Actually, there is one time that an A-1E landed and picked up a pilot. The Skyraider by many names did all kinds of things and was a single seater (AD-4), then there was the two seater, then the 3 seater (electronics, and more) and then there was the one I am listing below with the larger canopy. The AD-5 was adopted by the AF. It was given away by the Navy as they just got their newest toy, the A-4 and A-7. The AD-5/A1E had tandem seating with dual controls. In the back, it could handle all kinds of electronics and when it was empty, it could handle up to 10 passengers.

You must have read about the A-1A thru A-1D which were AD-4s.

Douglas A-1E Skyraider > National Museum of the US Air Force™ > Display

Skyraider, AD-5, A-1E pilot report

The A-1 was one of the most versatile aircraft ever to fly. Even one MOH winner flew one. Of course, he was using the fact that there was extra seating on the A-1E, the Enemy was closing too fast to get the Choppers and other A1-Es into play. So he dropped in, popped the canopy, the rescued pilot bailed in and he took off. His bird was shot to pieces and barely made it home. Of course, any other bird in that bad of shape would never have made it off the ground. The A-1E makes the A-10 look like paper meche for durability.

The part I am not buying is the 10 passenger bullshit.

Reality doesn't change just because you made a bone headed statement and are trying to prove it right. No matter how many times you say it, it's still just as boneheaded.

Really? Then show me a source! I think you are the bonehead and the more I look at it, the more I believe it.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

I didn't say the Spad did it. I said it was capable to do it. And it had the space in the back since it was designed to carry 8 Paratroopers. The OV-10 could handle 5 or 6 paratroopers and even drop them. One of the mods that was considered was increasing the OV-10s Airframe to handle up to 10 Paratroopers and calling an Armed Transport. The OV-1 had the same capability. But you can't use this capability for Sandy Pickup in a Jungle and rice paddy environment. You can use this in the Middle East.

I suggest you get a copy of Janes and actually look up what you are harping about. Most of us old hands have a special fondness to the OVs.

The SPAD was the A-1 Skyraider, which was a Navy Korean War relic. It had a crew of one and carried no passengers. I think you are extremely confused.

Actually, there is one time that an A-1E landed and picked up a pilot. The Skyraider by many names did all kinds of things and was a single seater (AD-4), then there was the two seater, then the 3 seater (electronics, and more) and then there was the one I am listing below with the larger canopy. The AD-5 was adopted by the AF. It was given away by the Navy as they just got their newest toy, the A-4 and A-7. The AD-5/A1E had tandem seating with dual controls. In the back, it could handle all kinds of electronics and when it was empty, it could handle up to 10 passengers.

You must have read about the A-1A thru A-1D which were AD-4s.

Douglas A-1E Skyraider > National Museum of the US Air Force™ > Display

Skyraider, AD-5, A-1E pilot report

The A-1 was one of the most versatile aircraft ever to fly. Even one MOH winner flew one. Of course, he was using the fact that there was extra seating on the A-1E, the Enemy was closing too fast to get the Choppers and other A1-Es into play. So he dropped in, popped the canopy, the rescued pilot bailed in and he took off. His bird was shot to pieces and barely made it home. Of course, any other bird in that bad of shape would never have made it off the ground. The A-1E makes the A-10 look like paper meche for durability.

The part I am not buying is the 10 passenger bullshit.

I didn't say the Spad did it. I said it was capable to do it. And it had the space in the back since it was designed to carry 8 Paratroopers. The OV-10 could handle 5 or 6 paratroopers and even drop them. One of the mods that was considered was increasing the OV-10s Airframe to handle up to 10 Paratroopers and calling an Armed Transport. The OV-1 had the same capability. But you can't use this capability for Sandy Pickup in a Jungle and rice paddy environment. You can use this in the Middle East.

I suggest you get a copy of Janes and actually look up what you are harping about. Most of us old hands have a special fondness to the OVs.

The SPAD was the A-1 Skyraider, which was a Navy Korean War relic. It had a crew of one and carried no passengers. I think you are extremely confused.

Actually, there is one time that an A-1E landed and picked up a pilot. The Skyraider by many names did all kinds of things and was a single seater (AD-4), then there was the two seater, then the 3 seater (electronics, and more) and then there was the one I am listing below with the larger canopy. The AD-5 was adopted by the AF. It was given away by the Navy as they just got their newest toy, the A-4 and A-7. The AD-5/A1E had tandem seating with dual controls. In the back, it could handle all kinds of electronics and when it was empty, it could handle up to 10 passengers.

You must have read about the A-1A thru A-1D which were AD-4s.

Douglas A-1E Skyraider > National Museum of the US Air Force™ > Display

Skyraider, AD-5, A-1E pilot report

The A-1 was one of the most versatile aircraft ever to fly. Even one MOH winner flew one. Of course, he was using the fact that there was extra seating on the A-1E, the Enemy was closing too fast to get the Choppers and other A1-Es into play. So he dropped in, popped the canopy, the rescued pilot bailed in and he took off. His bird was shot to pieces and barely made it home. Of course, any other bird in that bad of shape would never have made it off the ground. The A-1E makes the A-10 look like paper meche for durability.

The part I am not buying is the 10 passenger bullshit.

Reality doesn't change just because you made a bone headed statement and are trying to prove it right. No matter how many times you say it, it's still just as boneheaded.

Really? Then show me a source! I think you are the bonehead and the more I look at it, the more I believe it.

Already did. If you can't accept facts then there is no chance. I see this as another "I Hate Obama.....spit on floor" way of thinking. The original OP wanted to place blame on Obama. Facts be damned. Had you been born 10 years earlier then you might have at least stood beside an OV-10D+. So keep throwing those tantrums.

Have a nice day.

 

[longknife]

Do you two absolutely need to turn this thread into a personality contest?

The SPAD was a great aircraft and very versatile. But, what does it have to do with the OP?

 

[westwall]

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Enough with you.

"I was reclassified....and shipped to the States within 24 hours"

For folks reading this that don't know, in Air Force parlance, he got fired for being incompetent. A FAC's first and foremost job is to know where the friendlies are AT ALL TIMES. Being yanked out of theater and shipped home within 24 hours in time of war denotes a serious screw up--and not the first.

You are assuming that it happened in Vietnam. Wrong. It was part of our own little war to the west of Vietnam where the Army and Marines were not invited. Those grunts weren't supposed to be there. If you knew anything about the terrain then you would know that you could be 10 yds away and not be aware of the other person. My vantage point was to see up the Trail, not down the trail. Something I was told over and over while being asigned to a Shrink stateside, "They weren't supposed to be there, it wasn't your fault". Yes, I was fired from that job. But not long after that I made two grades on minimum time and got two cream assignments. Officially, I wasn't supposed to be there either. But the AF Command Post knew I was. How the hell could anyone foresee this event. None of us knew for certain that the convoy was going to be either. Luck was involved. In the Army, I would have been part of the 50% club and seperated. The AF didn't play that stupid game. If we could be fixed we got fixed. The AF Doctors didn't really understand PTSD yet but we could not be seperated even had we wanted to be. As far as I can see, the Army is still playing the 50% club game and that should be criminal.

Let me be blunt, I notice your nym is willie pete. That's an Army's common term. That means you were NOT USAF. You can try and squirm on that one but WP rounds are only used in the USAF on Gunships and only on specific missions. Those little excursions were too many and sometimes on purpose. While the AF was overlooked by the news media, there were too many news reports of the Army crossing the border. Direct result was, Kent State and the denouncement of the War by Walter Kronkite. Slick Move, there Exlacs.

In a word....bullshit. I actually know Raven 2. What you are asserting simply did not, and could not happen. You are sounding more and more like a Walter Mitty type every day.

I knew more than a few Ravens. But I wasn't a raven. They took a leave of absense from the AF. We didn't. We were special operations and enlisted. Just quick in and quick out. Nothing real dangerous about it. No hero here.

And you still won't accept responsability for anything. You Grunts stepped over the line once to often and and caused a lot of grief both in SEA and the States. It got hot enough from you idiots that we were asked to leave by whatever government was temporarily in charge that day.

Sure thing Walter.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

The SPAD was the A-1 Skyraider, which was a Navy Korean War relic. It had a crew of one and carried no passengers. I think you are extremely confused.

Actually, there is one time that an A-1E landed and picked up a pilot. The Skyraider by many names did all kinds of things and was a single seater (AD-4), then there was the two seater, then the 3 seater (electronics, and more) and then there was the one I am listing below with the larger canopy. The AD-5 was adopted by the AF. It was given away by the Navy as they just got their newest toy, the A-4 and A-7. The AD-5/A1E had tandem seating with dual controls. In the back, it could handle all kinds of electronics and when it was empty, it could handle up to 10 passengers.

You must have read about the A-1A thru A-1D which were AD-4s.

Douglas A-1E Skyraider > National Museum of the US Air Force™ > Display

Skyraider, AD-5, A-1E pilot report

The A-1 was one of the most versatile aircraft ever to fly. Even one MOH winner flew one. Of course, he was using the fact that there was extra seating on the A-1E, the Enemy was closing too fast to get the Choppers and other A1-Es into play. So he dropped in, popped the canopy, the rescued pilot bailed in and he took off. His bird was shot to pieces and barely made it home. Of course, any other bird in that bad of shape would never have made it off the ground. The A-1E makes the A-10 look like paper meche for durability.

The part I am not buying is the 10 passenger bullshit.

The SPAD was the A-1 Skyraider, which was a Navy Korean War relic. It had a crew of one and carried no passengers. I think you are extremely confused.

Actually, there is one time that an A-1E landed and picked up a pilot. The Skyraider by many names did all kinds of things and was a single seater (AD-4), then there was the two seater, then the 3 seater (electronics, and more) and then there was the one I am listing below with the larger canopy. The AD-5 was adopted by the AF. It was given away by the Navy as they just got their newest toy, the A-4 and A-7. The AD-5/A1E had tandem seating with dual controls. In the back, it could handle all kinds of electronics and when it was empty, it could handle up to 10 passengers.

You must have read about the A-1A thru A-1D which were AD-4s.

Douglas A-1E Skyraider > National Museum of the US Air Force™ > Display

Skyraider, AD-5, A-1E pilot report

The A-1 was one of the most versatile aircraft ever to fly. Even one MOH winner flew one. Of course, he was using the fact that there was extra seating on the A-1E, the Enemy was closing too fast to get the Choppers and other A1-Es into play. So he dropped in, popped the canopy, the rescued pilot bailed in and he took off. His bird was shot to pieces and barely made it home. Of course, any other bird in that bad of shape would never have made it off the ground. The A-1E makes the A-10 look like paper meche for durability.

The part I am not buying is the 10 passenger bullshit.

Reality doesn't change just because you made a bone headed statement and are trying to prove it right. No matter how many times you say it, it's still just as boneheaded.

Really? Then show me a source! I think you are the bonehead and the more I look at it, the more I believe it.

Already did. If you can't accept facts then there is no chance. I see this as another "I Hate Obama.....spit on floor" way of thinking. The original OP wanted to place blame on Obama. Facts be damned. Had you been born 10 years earlier then you might have at least stood beside an OV-10D+. So keep throwing those tantrums.

Have a nice day.

Do you mean like the OV-10s that were based at NAS Atlanta?

No, you did cite a source for your 10 passenger bullshit. We were talking about the A-1, not the OV-10. Reread your tantrums.

Why not admit you are blowing smoke out of your ass and we can all move on.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Do you two absolutely need to turn this thread into a personality contest?

The SPAD was a great aircraft and very versatile. But, what does it have to do with the OP?

What I tried to show is, when they got rid of the A-1E it left a hole that the OV-10D+ and the A-37 filled. With the loss of those two the A-10 has never been able to fill the roles of and range of the OV-10D+. The A-10 only has a 290 mile Combat Radius. That means it only has a 145 mile outgoing range and still have a decent loadout and have Loiter Time.

The Marines only sent two of their AV-10D+s and they have been very affective so far in CAS, Sandy, Recon and Coin. Then again, that's exactly what they were designed to do. There are better A and F birds out there. There are only two areas that the A-10 wins and that is in Attacking Amour and loadout. Funny, there is a series of complaints that the A-10 is under powered. Well, the same goes for the OV-10D+. Boeing still has the dies and assembly line equipment left over from the manufacture of the OV-10M that got new engines, better avionics and more hard points.

We already know that there is going to be a fly off for a replacement of an Aircraft for Coin, CAS and Sandy. I imagine it will between the AT-6, A-26 and the new upgraded OV-10M. All 3 can, at minimum, can do the job. It will be interesting considering the OV-10 is in combat and the other two have yet to get there. The A-29 is probably not more than a month from combat. There are currently no buyers for the AT-6.

And I agree, it should never be personal.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Actually, there is one time that an A-1E landed and picked up a pilot. The Skyraider by many names did all kinds of things and was a single seater (AD-4), then there was the two seater, then the 3 seater (electronics, and more) and then there was the one I am listing below with the larger canopy. The AD-5 was adopted by the AF. It was given away by the Navy as they just got their newest toy, the A-4 and A-7. The AD-5/A1E had tandem seating with dual controls. In the back, it could handle all kinds of electronics and when it was empty, it could handle up to 10 passengers.

You must have read about the A-1A thru A-1D which were AD-4s.

Obama Activates 50 year old Aircraft to Fight ISIL

Douglas A-1E Skyraider > National Museum of the US Air Force™ > Display

Skyraider, AD-5, A-1E pilot report

The A-1 was one of the most versatile aircraft ever to fly. Even one MOH winner flew one. Of course, he was using the fact that there was extra seating on the A-1E, the Enemy was closing too fast to get the Choppers and other A1-Es into play. So he dropped in, popped the canopy, the rescued pilot bailed in and he took off. His bird was shot to pieces and barely made it home. Of course, any other bird in that bad of shape would never have made it off the ground. The A-1E makes the A-10 look like paper meche for durability.

The part I am not buying is the 10 passenger bullshit.

Actually, there is one time that an A-1E landed and picked up a pilot. The Skyraider by many names did all kinds of things and was a single seater (AD-4), then there was the two seater, then the 3 seater (electronics, and more) and then there was the one I am listing below with the larger canopy. The AD-5 was adopted by the AF. It was given away by the Navy as they just got their newest toy, the A-4 and A-7. The AD-5/A1E had tandem seating with dual controls. In the back, it could handle all kinds of electronics and when it was empty, it could handle up to 10 passengers.

You must have read about the A-1A thru A-1D which were AD-4s.

Douglas A-1E Skyraider > National Museum of the US Air Force™ > Display

Skyraider, AD-5, A-1E pilot report

The A-1 was one of the most versatile aircraft ever to fly. Even one MOH winner flew one. Of course, he was using the fact that there was extra seating on the A-1E, the Enemy was closing too fast to get the Choppers and other A1-Es into play. So he dropped in, popped the canopy, the rescued pilot bailed in and he took off. His bird was shot to pieces and barely made it home. Of course, any other bird in that bad of shape would never have made it off the ground. The A-1E makes the A-10 look like paper meche for durability.

The part I am not buying is the 10 passenger bullshit.

Reality doesn't change just because you made a bone headed statement and are trying to prove it right. No matter how many times you say it, it's still just as boneheaded.

Really? Then show me a source! I think you are the bonehead and the more I look at it, the more I believe it.

Already did. If you can't accept facts then there is no chance. I see this as another "I Hate Obama.....spit on floor" way of thinking. The original OP wanted to place blame on Obama. Facts be damned. Had you been born 10 years earlier then you might have at least stood beside an OV-10D+. So keep throwing those tantrums.

Have a nice day.

Do you mean like the OV-10s that were based at NAS Atlanta?

No, you did cite a source for your 10 passenger bullshit. We were talking about the A-1, not the OV-10. Reread your tantrums.

Why not admit you are blowing smoke out of your ass and we can all move on.

Read the Subject line.
Obama Activates 50 year old Aircraft to Fight ISIL

We flew them in 'Nam for God's sake! And, is anyone amazed that sometimes the old Tried and True can get done what the New Kids can't? Read the story @ Antiquated aircraft resurrected by Obama administration to fight ISIS

That is what it's all about. Blaming Obama for using a bird that was designed for the Job and using it in that job. It wasn't a decision by Obama. It is a decision by the Marines. And the Coin competition is now on. May the best bird win.

 

[longknife]

Agree completely. The headline was misleading and actually a downright lie. It just goes to show how the media skews things to the way they think/want.

 

[williepete]

The A-10 only has a 290 mile Combat Radius. That means it only has a 145 mile outgoing range and still have a decent loadout and have Loiter Time.

290 miles. Yeah. In the fantasy world where the Air Force operates without tankers or external fuel tanks.

Name us a theater of operations since Vietnam where the Air Force has deployed assets without tanker, AWACs or satellite support.

In 1986, I passed a four ship of A-10's leaving South Korea on their way to Hawaii behind a tanker. Last I checked, Hawaii is more than 290 miles away from South Korea. They made it the whole 4,553 miles.

Range limited only by the endurance of the pilot:

 

[shadow355]

Video - recent ; CNN
Vintage warplane used to bomb ISIS - CNN Video


Shadow 355

 

[williepete]

Loiter time seems to be an issue in this discussion. In modern CAS operations, loiter time is not a factor. A ground or air FAC is fed assets (fighters or artillery) from up the chain only when requested. If there is no activity in a sector, assets aren't sent out to just orbit. The request goes out only when a target is identified.

The FAC puts his attack plan together while the fighters are on the way. Once on station, the FAC will use up a four ship in about 20 minutes then send them on their way. An air FAC flies to an assigned station, coordinates with the TACPs, asks for air, briefs the flight leader as he approaches his IP, clears him down range, shows him the target, works the target then sends the fighters away. If another formation is needed, it arrives as the previous formation is leaving.

If there's no activity in a sector, no assets are sent to it. As one air FAC leaves a station, he passes his replacement coming the other way and briefs him so he shows up on station with a little situational awareness.

CAS is a multi-stage integrated operation involving many levels of coordination and communication. The ground or air FAC is just the most forward set of eyeballs in a large interconnected chain. The loiter time of an aircraft is irrelevant. It's simply one of hundreds of factors fed into a complex and coordinated equation.

 

[westwall]

Loiter time seems to be an issue in this discussion. In modern CAS operations, loiter time is not a factor. A ground or air FAC is fed assets (fighters or artillery) from up the chain only when requested. If there is no activity in a sector, assets aren't sent out just orbit. The request goes out only when a target is identified.

The FAC puts his attack plan together while the fighters are on the way. Once on station, the FAC will use up a four ship in about 20 minutes then send them on their way. An air FAC, flies to an assigned station, coordinates with the TACPs, asks for air, briefs the flight leader as he approached his IP, clears him down range, shows him the target, works the target then sends the fighters away. If another formation was needed, it would arrive as the previous formation was leaving.

If there's no activity in a sector, no assets are sent to it. As one air FAC leaves a station, he passes his replacement coming the other way and briefs him so he shows up on station with a little situational awareness.

CAS is a multi-stage integrated operation involving many levels of coordination and communication. The ground or air FAC is just the most forward set of eyeballs in a large interconnected chain. The loiter time of an aircraft is irrelevant. It's simply one of hundreds of factors fed into a complex and coordinated equation.

Have you heard if they are going to bring back the Fast FAC mission? I know the Misty's did a good job with their F-100's. Just imagine if they had had A-10's.

 

[williepete]

^^^Haven't heard.^^^

Most say a dedicated platform is too expensive. Others demand one. The budget will decide in the end as usual. This year's CAS summit and the ongoing work of the new CAS Integration Group at Nellis may offer some clues. It will be an interesting topic to follow.

From last year:

USAF Eyes New Era Of Close Air Support

"...the Air Force is examining ideas for future CAS weapon systems, including, potentially, a dedicated platform. This is only in a study phase, but Carlisle says careful review is needed not for capability as much as potentially fielding extra tails to augment the dwindling numbers of fighters."

USAF Eyes New Era Of Close Air Support




-----------

 

[westwall]

^^^Haven't heard.^^^

Most say a dedicated platform is too expensive. Others demand one. The budget will decide in the end as usual. This year's CAS summit and the ongoing work of the new CAS Integration Group at Nellis may offer some clues. It will be an interesting topic to follow.

From last year:

USAF Eyes New Era Of Close Air Support

"...the Air Force is examining ideas for future CAS weapon systems, including, potentially, a dedicated platform. This is only in a study phase, but Carlisle says careful review is needed not for capability as much as potentially fielding extra tails to augment the dwindling numbers of fighters."

USAF Eyes New Era Of Close Air Support




-----------

Thanks for the link.

I am friends with the OPFOR pilots who fly against the Navy out at Fallon NAS, so am relatively current on the A/A component, but they don't do a tremendous amount of A/G work out there. Dixie Valley has quite a few APC's and other AFV types scattered about, but they are mainly used for photo recon work.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Agree completely. The headline was misleading and actually a downright lie. It just goes to show how the media skews things to the way they think/want.

These are hate baiters. One thing I can see is it's coming primarily from one group and that is the TP types. I remember when the TP was first formed. It had such high ideals. And then was hijacked.

 

[I amso IR]

Hey Daryl, I see you are still fighting the war of words. I have read this exchange and once again see and understand the logic you present. As a grunt, my position is that this pissing contest as to what aircraft will do and can't do, is getting very old. If the Air Force has or had a defensible position involving CAS it would be an important subject. Since the Air Force has no position nor desire to be involved in CAS the subject should not even exist. It would not take a hell of a lot to assign CAS to the Army and Marine Corp and leave the Navy way out there with the Air Force. There are numerous aircraft, both old and new which would do a fantastic CAS job and the OV10 is one example. And you are 100% correct, the big and ugly A10 was designed with the hoards of Soviet armor in mind. It would have performed poorly in Viet Nam and been of little value other than making holes in the Ho Chi Min Super Hiway. Hardly the operating ground for massed Soviet armor.

Were the powers to be, intrested in the individual soldier, the Army and Marine Corps would have that mission and would be equipped with a turbo propped, muti engined, aircraft with an extended loiter capability, with an air speed in the 300 mph ability. It would be armed with a .50 cal minigun, a 7.62 cal minigun, carry 100 lb bombs and air to ground rockets. It should be capable of in flight refueling from the CH47 helicopter or it's replacement should one ever be designed. The Army and Marine Corp versions would be interchangeable. At that point, the Air Force and Navy could "go to hell' while playing the "fast mover" game which is of so much importance to the average "grunt'. As a 'grunt' I could not care less about, "fast, star wars, ICBM, travel in outer space, astronaut, aircraft toilet, starry eyed horse shit". We want and need slow fly! My concern is my muddy hole and preventing snuffy from the other side from moving in! Having a few AH64 Apache's in the air helps also. Knowing that a few batteries of 105, 155, 8 inch artillery is available is nice also. Multiple launch rocket systems included. Give the ground forces what they require and let the "Super Forces" play their "Wild Blue Yonder" games. After all, grunts do not need them and we do not play in that space. Grunts have their own sand box, as it should be.

Real life is one thing, video game warfare is another. And you are absolutely correct Daryl, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. All of you sap suckers who challenge that truth, piss off!

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Hey Daryl, I see you are still fighting the war of words. I have read this exchange and once again see and understand the logic you present. As a grunt, my position is that this pissing contest as to what aircraft will do and can't do, is getting very old. If the Air Force has or had a defensible position involving CAS it would be an important subject. Since the Air Force has no position nor desire to be involved in CAS the subject should not even exist. It would not take a hell of a lot to assign CAS to the Army and Marine Corp and leave the Navy way out there with the Air Force. There are numerous aircraft, both old and new which would do a fantastic CAS job and the OV10 is one example. And you are 100% correct, the big and ugly A10 was designed with the hoards of Soviet armor in mind. It would have performed poorly in Viet Nam and been of little value other than making holes in the Ho Chi Min Super Hiway. Hardly the operating ground for massed Soviet armor.

Were the powers to be, intrested in the individual soldier, the Army and Marine Corps would have that mission and would be equipped with a turbo propped, muti engined, aircraft with an extended loiter capability, with an air speed in the 300 mph ability. It would be armed with a .50 cal minigun, a 7.62 cal minigun, carry 100 lb bombs and air to ground rockets. It should be capable of in flight refueling from the CH47 helicopter or it's replacement should one ever be designed. The Army and Marine Corp versions would be interchangeable. At that point, the Air Force and Navy could "go to hell' while playing the "fast mover" game which is of so much importance to the average "grunt'. As a 'grunt' I could not care less about, "fast, star wars, ICBM, travel in outer space, astronaut, aircraft toilet, starry eyed horse shit". We want and need slow fly! My concern is my muddy hole and preventing snuffy from the other side from moving in! Having a few AH64 Apache's in the air helps also. Knowing that a few batteries of 105, 155, 8 inch artillery is available is nice also. Multiple launch rocket systems included. Give the ground forces what they require and let the "Super Forces" play their "Wild Blue Yonder" games. After all, grunts do not need them and we do not play in that space. Grunts have their own sand box, as it should be.

Real life is one thing, video game warfare is another. And you are absolutely correct Daryl, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. All of you sap suckers who challenge that truth, piss off!

First of all, the Army does have one hell of a CAS platform as long as you have either a tanker truck or air to air refueler not far. The AH-64E is one hell of a CAS platform. Like the AF is doing with it's A10, they are always searching for a mission but never quite finding it. So they use it for missions it was never designed for but can do. So some idiot in the AF decided that the capabilities in the olf A-1 wasn't needed since the next "Great" war it wouldn't be needed.

I agree that it should be an Army function. But until they start using the Apache for that mission I don't see any need to worry about it. You Grunts should worry about it but you don't make the doctrines. It's as much an Army's failure as it is the AF.

I remember the old OV-1 Mohawk. It originally came out with enough firepower to do CAS. And it's range was quite good. And there are plenty of them in boneyards since it was in service until 1997. Another good choice like the OV-10 is. Put in fir Scrap because it wouldn't be used for the "Great" next war that never came. The next series of wars, the OV-1 would be priceless. If Obama were to order them back into service it would be a GOOD thing. Ask the Marines that recognize what a 50 year old bird can do.

 

[I amso IR]

Hey Daryl, I see you are still fighting the war of words. I have read this exchange and once again see and understand the logic you present. As a grunt, my position is that this pissing contest as to what aircraft will do and can't do, is getting very old. If the Air Force has or had a defensible position involving CAS it would be an important subject. Since the Air Force has no position nor desire to be involved in CAS the subject should not even exist. It would not take a hell of a lot to assign CAS to the Army and Marine Corp and leave the Navy way out there with the Air Force. There are numerous aircraft, both old and new which would do a fantastic CAS job and the OV10 is one example. And you are 100% correct, the big and ugly A10 was designed with the hoards of Soviet armor in mind. It would have performed poorly in Viet Nam and been of little value other than making holes in the Ho Chi Min Super Hiway. Hardly the operating ground for massed Soviet armor.

Were the powers to be, intrested in the individual soldier, the Army and Marine Corps would have that mission and would be equipped with a turbo propped, muti engined, aircraft with an extended loiter capability, with an air speed in the 300 mph ability. It would be armed with a .50 cal minigun, a 7.62 cal minigun, carry 100 lb bombs and air to ground rockets. It should be capable of in flight refueling from the CH47 helicopter or it's replacement should one ever be designed. The Army and Marine Corp versions would be interchangeable. At that point, the Air Force and Navy could "go to hell' while playing the "fast mover" game which is of so much importance to the average "grunt'. As a 'grunt' I could not care less about, "fast, star wars, ICBM, travel in outer space, astronaut, aircraft toilet, starry eyed horse shit". We want and need slow fly! My concern is my muddy hole and preventing snuffy from the other side from moving in! Having a few AH64 Apache's in the air helps also. Knowing that a few batteries of 105, 155, 8 inch artillery is available is nice also. Multiple launch rocket systems included. Give the ground forces what they require and let the "Super Forces" play their "Wild Blue Yonder" games. After all, grunts do not need them and we do not play in that space. Grunts have their own sand box, as it should be.

Real life is one thing, video game warfare is another. And you are absolutely correct Daryl, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. All of you sap suckers who challenge that truth, piss off!

First of all, the Army does have one hell of a CAS platform as long as you have either a tanker truck or air to air refueler not far. The AH-64E is one hell of a CAS platform. Like the AF is doing with it's A10, they are always searching for a mission but never quite finding it. So they use it for missions it was never designed for but can do. So some idiot in the AF decided that the capabilities in the olf A-1 wasn't needed since the next "Great" war it wouldn't be needed.

I agree that it should be an Army function. But until they start using the Apache for that mission I don't see any need to worry about it. You Grunts should worry about it but you don't make the doctrines. It's as much an Army's failure as it is the AF.

I remember the old OV-1 Mohawk. It originally came out with enough firepower to do CAS. And it's range was quite good. And there are plenty of them in boneyards since it was in service until 1997. Another good choice like the OV-10 is. Put in fir Scrap because it wouldn't be used for the "Great" next war that never came. The next series of wars, the OV-1 would be priceless. If Obama were to order them back into service it would be a GOOD thing. Ask the Marines that recognize what a 50 year old bird can do.