Obama math: under new Common Core, 3 x 4 = 11

[testarosa]

I don't even know what a hundreds chart is.

Five pages back I explained what elementary Common Core is.

That's how you learn double/ triple adding with CC

I ignored it because I know how to do math without charts.

Good for you.

Too bad the next generation won't know how.

 

[idb]

This from a guy that claims to be an astrophysicist.

Tell me something, if you get the wrong answer when you are figuring out where to point the telescope, will the universe give you partial credit? Will the observatory let you have extra time because you got wrote the right equation, but put down the wrong answer?

If the answer to any of those is no, why the fuck should a teacher give a kid partial credit for the wrong answer?

What are you talking about?
Getting the correct result is the consequence of understanding the process.

No it isn't, getting a correct result is a result of doing the math right.

Doing the maths right?
What does that mean?
Doing calculations maybe?
How do you know the right calculations to use or even how to carry them out correctly?
Learning maths includes knowing how to get to correct conclusion.

But I know you know that.

 

[idb]

If you actually understood math, you wouldn't ask that question.

Can you work the differential equations necessary to predict where a thrown ball will land using only the information available from a 2 second video showing the ball after its release?

Does that stop you from catching the ball?

No it doesn't.

What if the object is to catch the ball in a bucket sitting on the floor?
You have to place the bucket where you calculate the ball is going to land.
How do you work it out...rote learning...instinct...?

You need know basic tools to process. You don't write without knowing your alphabet first.

Of course.

 

[idb]

There are all sorts of tricks that you can learn to multiply large numbers.

On the other hand, we could skip teaching kids how to multiply at all, and simply let them add 4+4+4.

So what you're saying is that you have methods for calculating the right answer?

No, what I am saying is there is more than one way to get the right answer. Calculus was invented to make getting the right answer easier, if we did it your way we would be stuck using an abacus and Roman Numerals.

How so?
You make no sense.

 

[idb]

If you actually understood math, you wouldn't ask that question.

Can you work the differential equations necessary to predict where a thrown ball will land using only the information available from a 2 second video showing the ball after its release?

Does that stop you from catching the ball?

No it doesn't.

What if the object is to catch the ball in a bucket sitting on the floor?
You have to place the bucket where you calculate the ball is going to land.
How do you work it out...rote learning...instinct...?

Experience, something you seem to lack.

Riiiiighht.

 

[BobPlumb]

No it doesn't.

What if the object is to catch the ball in a bucket sitting on the floor?
You have to place the bucket where you calculate the ball is going to land.
How do you work it out...rote learning...instinct...?

You need know basic tools to process. You don't write without knowing your alphabet first.

Of course.

If you misspell one word in a 20,000 word essay, then the entire essay must be wrong. Big fat F

 

[dilloduck]

No it doesn't.

What if the object is to catch the ball in a bucket sitting on the floor?
You have to place the bucket where you calculate the ball is going to land.
How do you work it out...rote learning...instinct...?

You need know basic tools to process. You don't write without knowing your alphabet first.

Of course.

So is the problem that kids don't know the processes or that they don't even have the first clue ? Are you going to teach them the process by which the alphabet came about or start with the ABC's ?
People are coming out of school and they're dumb as a box of rocks.

 

[idb]

You need know basic tools to process. You don't write without knowing your alphabet first.

Of course.

If you misspell one word in a 20,000 word essay, then the entire essay must be wrong. Big fat F

Well, if you say so...

 

[testarosa]

Well this thread has been an enlightening and informative discussion on the topic.

Good try Matthew.

 

[BobPlumb]

Of course.

If you misspell one word in a 20,000 word essay, then the entire essay must be wrong. Big fat F

Well, if you say so...

Just applying the same logic as some of the others on this thread!

 

[idb]

You need know basic tools to process. You don't write without knowing your alphabet first.

Of course.

So is the problem that kids don't know the processes or that they don't even have the first clue ? Are you going to teach them the process by which the alphabet came about or start with the ABC's ?
People are coming out of school and they're dumb as a box of rocks.

Of course you need to have a grounding in the basics.
You can't do anything without knowing the basic components...you can't become a Formula 1 driver without knowing which pedals are which and what they do when you press on them.
But you also need that basic knowledge just to get to the shop and back.

 

[idb]

If you misspell one word in a 20,000 word essay, then the entire essay must be wrong. Big fat F

Well, if you say so...

Just applying the same logic as some of the others on this thread!

Sorry Bob...I should recognise sarcasm since I use it enough myself.

 

[testarosa]

You need know basic tools to process. You don't write without knowing your alphabet first.

Of course.

So is the problem that kids don't know the processes or that they don't even have the first clue ? Are you going to teach them the process by which the alphabet came about or start with the ABC's ?
People are coming out of school and they're dumb as a box of rocks.

We teach them how to pass a test. The school test scores gives them money. F no money.
We test them in April for a full school year. The teachers cram them on how to pass the test.

That has nothing to do with CC. That's a different, well this, topic.

 

[testarosa]

The problems with education is not rocket science except for the old ego fogies.

 

[Zoom-boing]

You need both to understand how to do the math and also understand how to to the process. Getting the right answer without understand how you got it really isn't any good; understanding the process then screwing up the basic math isn't any good.

If I know that 3x4 = 12 but do not know to multiply L x W, then I won't get the right answer because I don't understand the process of how.

If I understand to the process and know to multiply L x W (3 x 4) but give 11 as the answer, then I won't get the right answer because I didn't do the math right.

As someone who sucks ... and I mean SUCKS at math ... I struggled with it all through grade school, and summer school before high school, high school and college. Had to take the 'refresher' course before I could take the math I needed for college. Seriously, my brain doesn't do math well at all.

I remember not understanding the process and therefore not getting the right answer, so I got the whole thing wrong. I remember understanding the process (at some point, sometimes, something clicked) then I'd screw it up by doing the basic, simple math part of it wrong. And it would happen again, and again, and again. The nuns marked it wrong. Later, in college, the teachers would give me partial credit.

Thing is, when I was young and I made a dumb math mistake and I'd get the whole answer wrong? I always thought it was because I didn't understand the process ... even when that part was right. If the teachers or my parents went over it with me, I'd see my mistake. But when the next word problem came along? Lather, rinse, repeat.

I can't do math in my head either.

I love calculators.

 

[idb]

You need both to understand how to do the math and also understand how to to the process. Getting the right answer without understand how you got it really isn't any good; understanding the process then screwing up the basic math isn't any good.

If I know that 3x4 = 12 but do not know to multiply L x W, then I won't get the right answer because I don't understand the process of how.

If I understand to the process and know to multiply L x W (3 x 4) but give 11 as the answer, then I won't get the right answer because I didn't do the math right.

As someone who sucks ... and I mean SUCKS at math ... I struggled with it all through grade school, and summer school before high school, high school and college. Had to take the 'refresher' course before I could take the math I needed for college. Seriously, my brain doesn't do math well at all.

I remember not understanding the process and therefore not getting the right answer, so I got the whole thing wrong. I remember understanding the process (at some point, sometimes, something clicked) then I'd screw it up by doing the basic, simple math part of it wrong. And it would happen again, and again, and again. The nuns marked it wrong. Later, in college, the teachers would give me partial credit.

Thing is, when I was young and I made a dumb math mistake and I'd get the whole answer wrong? I always thought it was because I didn't understand the process ... even when that part was right. If the teachers or my parents went over it with me, I'd see my mistake. But when the next word problem came along? Lather, rinse, repeat.

I can't do math in my head either.

I love calculators.

Personally, I have a fairly literal way of understanding things.
I like to be able to visualise something in my head.
If I can work out a way of seeing in my minds eye how an equation works then I can understand it.

Something like quantum mechanics will probably always be a mystery to me because I can't visualise how it works.

 

[Sunshine]

That was a very short piece of a much longer presentation, and I believe that it was taken out of context. Having not seen the complete presentation, I cannot be absolutely sure of the context, but I suspect that 3 times 4 is part of a bigger problem such as the area of a rectangle. A student would be able to score points by explaining that the area of the rectangle is length times width. Perhaps the student might lose points by making a computational error such as 3 x 4 = 11.

The context of the OP would have us believe that common core would accept the answer that 3 x 4 = 11 as long as the student could BS a reason why 3 x 4 should equal 11. I don't believe that is what the speaker is trying to say.

If asked how to find the area of a 3 by 4 rectangle, the students says multiply the length by the width. 3 x 4 = 11 square units. The teacher should congratulate the student on the correct method of doing the problem and being able to explain the correct method, while correcting the student on the incorrect computation.

Perhaps you are looking for a way to justify government standards that make no sense.

Can you tell me of a single time in your life as an adult when getting to the wrong place, even if you read the map, helped? Why should teachers tell students that getting the wrong answer is ever acceptable? I wouldn't treat Forest Gump with that much contempt, and I would bitch slap any teacher who tried to do that with my children.

I had one to tell me that my son's abominable handwriting would not be an issue because computers would fix everything. He is almost 40. This has been going on a LONG time.

 

[Sunshine]

Only 6% of scientists identify as "Republicans" the rest are from the "I feel that 3*4=11" school of science and education, then you wonder why our infrastructure is crumbling

You see no value in understanding process rather than simply rote learning of facts?

I would want the person who is spending hundreds of thousands of my dollars building a house to have had some 'rote teaching of facts.'

 

[idb]

Only 6% of scientists identify as "Republicans" the rest are from the "I feel that 3*4=11" school of science and education, then you wonder why our infrastructure is crumbling

You see no value in understanding process rather than simply rote learning of facts?

I would want the person who is spending hundreds of thousands of my dollars building a house to have had some 'rote teaching of facts.'

Sure, as I said above, you need to know the basics.
But what if each piece of timber delivered is not the exact required length?
How can he work out what length to cut it to to ensure that everything is kept square (or whatever angle is required)?

 

[Sunshine]

You need both to understand how to do the math and also understand how to to the process. Getting the right answer without understand how you got it really isn't any good; understanding the process then screwing up the basic math isn't any good.

If I know that 3x4 = 12 but do not know to multiply L x W, then I won't get the right answer because I don't understand the process of how.

If I understand to the process and know to multiply L x W (3 x 4) but give 11 as the answer, then I won't get the right answer because I didn't do the math right.

As someone who sucks ... and I mean SUCKS at math ... I struggled with it all through grade school, and summer school before high school, high school and college. Had to take the 'refresher' course before I could take the math I needed for college. Seriously, my brain doesn't do math well at all.

I remember not understanding the process and therefore not getting the right answer, so I got the whole thing wrong. I remember understanding the process (at some point, sometimes, something clicked) then I'd screw it up by doing the basic, simple math part of it wrong. And it would happen again, and again, and again. The nuns marked it wrong. Later, in college, the teachers would give me partial credit.

Thing is, when I was young and I made a dumb math mistake and I'd get the whole answer wrong? I always thought it was because I didn't understand the process ... even when that part was right. If the teachers or my parents went over it with me, I'd see my mistake. But when the next word problem came along? Lather, rinse, repeat.

I can't do math in my head either.

I love calculators.

Personally, I have a fairly literal way of understanding things.
I like to be able to visualise something in my head.
If I can work out a way of seeing in my minds eye how an equation works then I can understand it.

Something like quantum mechanics will probably always be a mystery to me because I can't visualise how it works.

If you were my patient in a hospital, I would be able to calculate your IV drip rate, you medicine to the nearest nanogram, and count out all your pills for the day. A lot of nurses these days cannot do any of that. We always gave a math question on our tests. Here was my question:

You are a community health nurse. You have an indigent patient who needs medication but has no insurance. The doctors order reads: Zyprexa 20mg by mouth every night. You have on hand samples of Zyprexa the pharm rep left last visit. Each bottle contains 7 ten milligram pills. It takes 28 days to get the patient on Tenncare. How many bottles will you give him to last until he has insurance. They would turn in two pages of equations and still have the wrong answer.

Another. Doctors order says: Haldol Decanoate 150mg IM every 4 weeks. You have on hand Haldol Decanoate in 100mg/1ml vials. How many ml do you give the patient IM every 4 weeks? I can figure these in my head. But your nurse likely will not be able to solve either one of them.

Scary isn't it?