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you do understand that this is neither refutation of my evidence or presentation of your own, right?
just because someone puts a headline on their webpage doesn't make it true. i've presented you with the notice and the section of the INA that grants the power to make such changes in policy to the secretaries of state and homeland security. i've shown where such changes have been made before using the same powers - and i've shown that the supreme court has found such delegation not only constitutional but necessary.
do you have any evidence to suggest that this particular change is somehow different and therefore illegal and unconstitutional? do you offer anything other than articles that make the same accusations you do without any reasoning behind them?
Now....when I prove it.....should I await your apology?
you prove it and i'll be happy to admit i was wrong.
however, what i believe will happen is one of two things - you'll link to an article that links back to the daily caller that says only what you've been saying from the beginning and offers no reasoning or evidence, or you'll post articles I and II of the constitution - neither of which are proof.
so yeah, if you can prove it by all means please do.
so what's the lesson here?
first, do some research. even a cursory google search shows that there is no executive order. that should at least let you know that there are issues with your source.
and speaking of sources, choose something reputable. go to the original if possible. spend the extra time corroborating with an unbiased sourced what you've found on your favorite yellow journalism site.
third, if you're going to make wild claims of illegal acts and unconstitutionality be prepared to back them up with facts. be able to tell us why you make that claim, and why examples of similar actions are in fact not applicable. put yourself in the position to make an argument other than a vague 'because the constitution!'
fourth, please post coherently. just because you believe you've laid your argument out logically by randomly inserting numbers and ellipses doesn't mean that the rest of us can follow your particular train of thought. give us your opinion, in your own words, with the evidence clearly laid out to support it. source your quotes and articles and group them together in a logical fashion.
and finally, we learned that when politicalchic is completely and utterly destroyed she runs away.
Now....when I prove it.....should I await your apology?
you prove it and i'll be happy to admit i was wrong.
however, what i believe will happen is one of two things - you'll link to an article that links back to the daily caller that says only what you've been saying from the beginning and offers no reasoning or evidence, or you'll post articles I and II of the constitution - neither of which are proof.
so yeah, if you can prove it by all means please do.
… and any other activity or association falling within the scope of … desire to assist any terrorist organization or terrorist activity; (e) Has not … and Immigration Services (USCIS), in consultation with U.S. Immigration and Customs …
A Notice by the Homeland Security Department and the State Department on 02/05/2014
https://www.federalregister.gov/art...=immigration+terrorist+associations&commit=Go
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2014-02-05/pdf/2014-02357.pdf
you prove it and i'll be happy to admit i was wrong.
however, what i believe will happen is one of two things - you'll link to an article that links back to the daily caller that says only what you've been saying from the beginning and offers no reasoning or evidence, or you'll post articles I and II of the constitution - neither of which are proof.
so yeah, if you can prove it by all means please do.
and any other activity or association falling within the scope of desire to assist any terrorist organization or terrorist activity; (e) Has not and Immigration Services (USCIS), in consultation with U.S. Immigration and Customs
A Notice by the Homeland Security Department and the State Department on 02/05/2014
https://www.federalregister.gov/art...=immigration+terrorist+associations&commit=Go
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2014-02-05/pdf/2014-02357.pdf
what did we say about ellipses?
waiting for the proof. or did you somehow believe that after posting a link to the notice in my first response in this thread your job was to prove that the notice existed?and any other activity or association falling within the scope of desire to assist any terrorist organization or terrorist activity; (e) Has not and Immigration Services (USCIS), in consultation with U.S. Immigration and Customs
A Notice by the Homeland Security Department and the State Department on 02/05/2014
https://www.federalregister.gov/art...=immigration+terrorist+associations&commit=Go
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2014-02-05/pdf/2014-02357.pdf
what did we say about ellipses?
Here is a rule so simple that even you will be able to understand it.
I post as I wish.
You read what you wish.
Waiting for the apology.
waiting for the proof. or did you somehow believe that after posting a link to the notice in my first response in this thread your job was to prove that the notice existed?what did we say about ellipses?
Here is a rule so simple that even you will be able to understand it.
I post as I wish.
You read what you wish.
Waiting for the apology.
you are to back up your claim of illegality and unconstitutionality. that is your task.
i've provided the notice, the law that grants the power, and example of that power being used similarly before, and a supreme court decision that allows for delegation.
what have you provided to support your claims?
never once did i dispute that the changes were made. they are a matte of record. your claim was that such changes were illegal and unconstitutional. i disputed that. i presented you with evidence for my point of view, evidence which includes the notice, the law that allows for such powers, an example of those powers being used before in a similar fashion, and a supreme court case that found delegation constitutional. i believe that the evidence is clear that your assertion that the changes were illegal and unconstitutional is completely without merit - so much so that it is only slightly less evident than your claim that the changes were made by executive order.waiting for the proof. or did you somehow believe that after posting a link to the notice in my first response in this thread your job was to prove that the notice existed?Here is a rule so simple that even you will be able to understand it.
I post as I wish.
You read what you wish.
Waiting for the apology.
you are to back up your claim of illegality and unconstitutionality. that is your task.
i've provided the notice, the law that grants the power, and example of that power being used similarly before, and a supreme court decision that allows for delegation.
what have you provided to support your claims?
The link posts the entire series of changes, exactly as stated in the OP.
You promised an apology if proof was provided.
You are a lying waste of time.
Be gone.
never once did i dispute that the changes were made. they are a matte of record. your claim was that such changes were illegal and unconstitutional. i disputed that. i presented you with evidence for my point of view, evidence which includes the notice, the law that allows for such powers, an example of those powers being used before in a similar fashion, and a supreme court case that found delegation constitutional. i believe that the evidence is clear that your assertion that the changes were illegal and unconstitutional is completely without merit - so much so that it is only slightly less evident than your claim that the changes were made by executive order.waiting for the proof. or did you somehow believe that after posting a link to the notice in my first response in this thread your job was to prove that the notice existed?
you are to back up your claim of illegality and unconstitutionality. that is your task.
i've provided the notice, the law that grants the power, and example of that power being used similarly before, and a supreme court decision that allows for delegation.
what have you provided to support your claims?
The link posts the entire series of changes, exactly as stated in the OP.
You promised an apology if proof was provided.
You are a lying waste of time.
Be gone.
you have proven nothing, and if either of us is a waste of time it is you for playing games with what you know to be the issue at hand - or do i give you too much credit?
never once did i dispute that the changes were made. they are a matte of record. your claim was that such changes were illegal and unconstitutional. i disputed that. i presented you with evidence for my point of view, evidence which includes the notice, the law that allows for such powers, an example of those powers being used before in a similar fashion, and a supreme court case that found delegation constitutional. i believe that the evidence is clear that your assertion that the changes were illegal and unconstitutional is completely without merit - so much so that it is only slightly less evident than your claim that the changes were made by executive order.The link posts the entire series of changes, exactly as stated in the OP.
You promised an apology if proof was provided.
You are a lying waste of time.
Be gone.
you have proven nothing, and if either of us is a waste of time it is you for playing games with what you know to be the issue at hand - or do i give you too much credit?
In post #33 you said:
"....first, do some research. even a cursory google search shows that there is no executive order. that should at least let you know that there are issues with your source.
and speaking of sources, choose something reputable. go to the original if possible. spend the extra time corroborating with an unbiased sourced what you've found on your favorite yellow journalism site."
You had a chance to behave honorably.....you lied.
Beat it, slime.
never once did i dispute that the changes were made. they are a matte of record. your claim was that such changes were illegal and unconstitutional. i disputed that. i presented you with evidence for my point of view, evidence which includes the notice, the law that allows for such powers, an example of those powers being used before in a similar fashion, and a supreme court case that found delegation constitutional. i believe that the evidence is clear that your assertion that the changes were illegal and unconstitutional is completely without merit - so much so that it is only slightly less evident than your claim that the changes were made by executive order.
you have proven nothing, and if either of us is a waste of time it is you for playing games with what you know to be the issue at hand - or do i give you too much credit?
In post #33 you said:
"....first, do some research. even a cursory google search shows that there is no executive order. that should at least let you know that there are issues with your source.
and speaking of sources, choose something reputable. go to the original if possible. spend the extra time corroborating with an unbiased sourced what you've found on your favorite yellow journalism site."
You had a chance to behave honorably.....you lied.
Beat it, slime.
wow. you don't understand what an executive order is. executive orders come from the president. they are listed on a white house website. they carry the presidential signature.
what you have posted is a notice of determination. it does not carry the president's signature, it is not listed on the page of executive orders... therefore your claim in the op that "Obama, by executive order, change the rules of immigration so that those who had known contact with terrorists" is not true. factually, demonstrably , and completely false.
your claim that i lied is also not true. if anyone is owed an apology it is this 'slime'
In post #33 you said:
"....first, do some research. even a cursory google search shows that there is no executive order. that should at least let you know that there are issues with your source.
and speaking of sources, choose something reputable. go to the original if possible. spend the extra time corroborating with an unbiased sourced what you've found on your favorite yellow journalism site."
You had a chance to behave honorably.....you lied.
Beat it, slime.
wow. you don't understand what an executive order is. executive orders come from the president. they are listed on a white house website. they carry the presidential signature.
what you have posted is a notice of determination. it does not carry the president's signature, it is not listed on the page of executive orders... therefore your claim in the op that "Obama, by executive order, change the rules of immigration so that those who had known contact with terrorists" is not true. factually, demonstrably , and completely false.
your claim that i lied is also not true. if anyone is owed an apology it is this 'slime'
You're a liar.
You attempted to case aspersions throughout the thread, and when I proved that the OP was totally correct, you tap-danced and attempted to move the goalposts.
The link provided- exactly what you asked for- proved my allegations.
So you remain, at the least, two faced.
Step off, slime.
Another problem solved by Obama!
Clearly there weren't enough terrorist associates in America.
Where will they all rush to for employment?
They might get the wrong idea when they see the name 'Target' at the mall.
Another problem solved by Obama!
Clearly there weren't enough terrorist associates in America.
Where will they all rush to for employment?
They might get the wrong idea when they see the name 'Target' at the mall.
Interesting PC.
So all people who associated with Terrorist groups should be kicked out?
Like say, those who associated with the IRA or the Stern Gang?
That's going to close down a lot of bars and delis.
But we will be safe!
This is good, we can show loose association with a lot of "Christians" and Health Care Clinic bombers and murders of doctors.
And we can associate all NRA members with Tim McVey.
Buh-bye, nutters.
List them.
Let's start with these:
March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida was fatally shot during a protest. He had been the subject of wanted-style posters distributed by Operation Rescue in the summer of 1992. Michael F. Griffin was found guilty of Gunn's murder and was sentenced to life in prison.
July 29, 1994: Dr. John Britton and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside another facility, the Ladies Center, in Pensacola. Rev. Paul Jennings Hill was charged with the killings. Hill received a death sentence and was executed on September 3, 2003. The clinic in Pensacola had been bombed before and was also bombed subsequently, in 1984 and 2012.
December 30, 1994: Two receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts. John Salvi was arrested and confessed to the killings. He died in prison and guards found his body under his bed with a plastic garbage bag tied around his head. Salvi had also confessed to a non-lethal attack in Norfolk, Virginia days before the Brookline killings.
January 29, 1998: Robert Sanderson, an off-duty police officer who worked as a security guard at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, was killed when his workplace was bombed. Eric Robert Rudolph, who was also responsible for the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing, was charged with the crime and received two life sentences as a result.
October 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot to death with a high-powered rifle at his home in Amherst, New York.[10] His was the last in a series of similar shootings against providers in Canada and northern New York state which were all likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp was convicted of Slepian's murder after finally being apprehended in France in 2001.
May 31, 2009: Dr. George Tiller was shot and killed by Scott Roeder as Tiller served as an usher at church in Wichita, Kansas.[11]
[edit] Attempted murder, assault, and kidnappingAccording to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.[12] Attempted murders in the U.S. included:[8][13][14]
August 19, 1993: Dr. George Tiller was shot outside of an abortion facility in Wichita, Kansas. Shelley Shannon was charged with the crime and received an 11-year prison sentence (20 years were later added for arson and acid attacks on clinics).
July 29, 1994: June Barret was shot in the same attack which claimed the lives of James Barrett, her husband, and Dr. John Britton.
December 30, 1994: Five individuals were wounded in the shootings which killed Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols.
October 28, 1997: Dr. David Gandell of Rochester, New York was injured by flying glass when a shot was fired through the window of his home.[15]
January 29, 1998: Emily Lyons, a nurse, was severely injured, and lost an eye, in the bombing which also killed Robert Sanderson.
December 25, 1984: An abortion clinic and two physicians' offices in Pensacola, Florida were bombed in the early morning of Christmas Day by a quartet of young people (Matt Goldsby, Jimmy Simmons, Kathy Simmons, Kaye Wiggins) who later called the bombings "a gift to Jesus on his birthday."[18][19][20] The clinic, the Ladies Center, would later be the site of the murder of Dr. John Britton and James Barrett in 1994 and a firebombing in 2012.
May 21, 1998: Three people were injured when acid was poured at the entrances of five abortion clinics in Miami, Florida.[21]
October 1999: Martin Uphoff set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, causing US$100 worth of damage. He was later sentenced to 60 months in prison.[22]
May 28, 2000: An arson at a clinic in Concord, New Hampshire resulted in several thousand dollars' worth of damage. The case remains unsolved.[23][24][25] This was the second arson at the clinic.[26]
September 30, 2000: John Earl, a Catholic priest, drove his car into the Northern Illinois Health Clinic after learning that the FDA had approved the drug RU-486. He pulled out an ax before being forced to the ground by the owner of the building, who fired two warning shots from a shotgun.[27]
June 11, 2001: An unsolved bombing at a clinic in Tacoma, Washington destroyed a wall, resulting in $6,000 in damages.[22][28]
July 4, 2005: A clinic Palm Beach, Florida was the target of an arson. The case remains open.[22]
December 12, 2005: Patricia Hughes and Jeremy Dunahoe threw a Molotov cocktail at a clinic in Shreveport, Louisiana. The device missed the building and no damage was caused. In August 2006, Hughes was sentenced to six years in prison, and Dunahoe to one year. Hughes claimed the bomb was a "memorial lamp" for an abortion she had had there.[29]
September 11, 2006 David McMenemy of Rochester Hills, Michigan, crashed his car into the Edgerton Women's Care Center in Davenport, Iowa. He then doused the lobby in gasoline and started a fire. McMenemy committed these acts in the belief that the center was performing abortions; however, Edgerton is not an abortion clinic.[30] Time magazine listed the incident in a "Top 10 Inept Terrorist Plots" list.[31]
April 25, 2007: A package left at a women's health clinic in Austin, Texas, contained an explosive device capable of inflicting serious injury or death. A bomb squad detonated the device after evacuating the building. Paul Ross Evans (who had a criminal record for armed robbery and theft) was found guilty of the crime.[32]
May 9, 2007: An unidentified person deliberately set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Virginia Beach, Virginia.[33]
December 6, 2007: Chad Altman and Sergio Baca were arrested for the arson of Dr. Curtis Boyd's clinic in Albuquerque. Baca's girlfriend had scheduled an appointment for an abortion at the clinic.[34][35]
January 22, 2009 Matthew L. Derosia, 32, who was reported to have had a history of mental illness[36] rammed an SUV into the front entrance of a Planned Parenthood clinic in St. Paul, Minnesota.[37]
January 1, 2012 Bobby Joe Rogers, 41, firebombed the American Family Planning Clinic in Pensacola, Florida with a Molotov cocktail; the fire gutted the building. Rogers told investigators that he was motivated to commit the crime by his opposition to abortion, and that what more directly prompted the act was seeing a patient enter the clinic during one of the frequent anti-abortion protests there. The clinic had previously been bombed at Christmas in 1984 and was the site of the murder of Dr. John Britton and James Barrett in 1994.[38]
April 1, 2012 A bomb exploded on the windowsill of a Planned Parenthood clinic in Grand Chute, Wisconsin, resulting in a fire that damaged one of the clinic's examination rooms. No injuries were reported. On April 3, the FBI arrested 50-year-old Francis Grady on charges of "arson of a building used in interstate commerce" and "intentionally damaging the property of a facility that provides reproductive health services".[39]
November 2001: After the genuine 2001 anthrax attacks, Clayton Waagner mailed hoax letters containing a white powder to 554 clinics. On December 3, 2003, Waagner was convicted of 51 charges relating to the anthrax scare.
Griffin - not supported by his pro life group.
Body Politic Feature - Shelly Shannon - II
Paul Jennings Hill - The Army of God - a fragmented fringe group whose members never met or assembled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_God_(United_States)
John Salvi - another schizophrenic
John Salvi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Eric Rudolph - not a Christian
Eric Rudolph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp - 'Likely' doesn't cut it
Roeder - a schizophrenic
Assassination of George Tiller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Shelly Shannon - not reported to be a Christian, did not join the fringe group until she was incarcerated
The following from your own stolen list do not state anyone was ever accused of them -therefore you cannot claim they were perpetrated by Christians:
From your stolen wiki post
Matt Goldsby, Jimmy Simmons, Kathy Simmons, Kaye Wiggins-three were members of the First Assembly of God, and Wiggins of the Amazing Grace Tabernacle Church[7] — led to the acts
Those churches are Mormon churches.
May 21, 1998: Three people were injured when acid was poured at the entrances of five abortion clinics in Miami, Florida.[21]- non one named as the perp
Martin Uphoff - his affiliation is not listed anywhere that I can find.
Again no one named:
May 28, 2000: An arson at a clinic in Concord, New Hampshire resulted in several thousand dollars' worth of damage. The case remains unsolved.[23][24][25] This was the second arson at the clinic.[26]
From your stolen wiki page
John Earl, a Catholic priest - the clinic was unoccupied and no one was killed. Vandalism. A lot of peole are vandals
June 11, 2001: An unsolved bombing at a clinic in Tacoma, Washington destroyed a wall, resulting in $6,000 in damages.[22][28] - no proof it was a Christian
July 4, 2005: A clinic Palm Beach, Florida was the target of an arson. The case remains open.[22] - another unresolved
December 12, 2005: Patricia Hughes and Jeremy Dunahoe threw a Molotov cocktail at a clinic in Shreveport, Louisiana. The device missed the building and no damage was caused. In August 2006, Hughes was sentenced to six years in prison, and Dunahoe to one year. Hughes claimed the bomb was a "memorial lamp" for an abortion she had had there.[29] - personal grudge, and no religious afficiation is mentioned anywhere
David McMenemy - no place does he claim he is a Christian. And your link doesn't even state that he is.
Paul Ross Evans - another from the fragmented Army of God fringe group
May 9, 2007: An unidentified person deliberately set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Virginia Beach, Virginia.[33] - if they are unidentified you don't know if they were Christian, Muslim or what.
December 6, 2007: Chad Altman and Sergio Baca were arrested for the arson of Dr. Curtis Boyd's clinic in Albuquerque. Baca's girlfriend had scheduled an appointment for an abortion at the clinic.[34][35] - again this was a personal grudge, not religious
January 22, 2009 Matthew L. Derosia, 32, who was reported to have had a history of mental illness[36] rammed an SUV into the front entrance of a Planned Parenthood clinic in St. Paul, Minnesota.[37] - Chrsitian terrorist negated in your own post
Bobby Joe Rodgers - a homeless man, no religious affiliation:
Bobby Joe Rogers Sentenced To 10 Years For Firebombing Abortion Clinic In Pensacola
Bobby Joe Rogers, 41, pleaded guilty in July to charges of arson and damaging a reproductive health facility.
The fire gutted Pensacola's American Family Planning Clinic. The building's charred shell has since been razed.
Rogers, a transient with a lengthy criminal history, told detectives he had been living in a parking lot near the clinic and decided to set the fire because he was upset that abortions were performed there.
Bobby Joe Rogers Sentenced To 10 Years For Firebombing Abortion Clinic In Pensacola
Francis Grady - no religious affiliation listed. Claimed by the Army of God - but that means nothing. I could claim you as my father if I wanted.
Clayton Lee Waagner (born August 25, 1956) is a convicted bank robber and anti-abortion activist. He was born Roger Waagner in North Dakota. He was an escaped fugitive during the spring, summer and fall of 2001 and was the FBI's 467th fugitive to be placed on the Ten Most Wanted list for carjackings, firearms violations, and bank robbery on September 21, 2001. He was placed on the United States Marshals Service Top 15 Fugitives list for sending more than 280 letters that claimed to contain anthrax, which he mailed to Planned Parenthood with return addresses of the Marshals Service and the Secret Service beginning in October 2001.[1] He is currently in prison.
Clayton Waagner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
OK, there, I answered every last one of them. You did nothing but copy and past a wiki page on abortion clinic bombers, and even that page which you stole by not citing your source does not list them as Christians. Not only that, many are unsolved which I have pointed out and only an idiot would post unsolved cases and claim they were perpetrated by a Christian unless he knows personally who the perps are. Do you?
And lastly the link you SHOULD have cited from wiki is : Anti-abortion violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
politicalchic, your op is a mess. before you go handing out english lessons perhaps you should learn to post coherently and how to attribute quotes to their source.
that said, the majority of your post seems to be from an article on a conservative website that quotes a conservative organization. not exactly unbiased.
here is the published notice in the federal register
https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2014/02/05/2014-02357/exercise-of-authority-under-section-212d3bi-of-the-immigration-and-nationality-act
and here's a link to Michael Chertoff using the same powers in 2007.
ilink | USCIS
and finally a link and quote of the pertinent part of the INA that grants the power to make such a change
ilink | USCISINA Section 212(d)(3)(B)(i) said:(B) (i) 20b/ 20c/ The Secretary of State, after consultation with the Attorney General and the Secretary of Homeland Security, or the Secretary of Homeland Security, after consultation with the Secretary of State and the Attorney General, may determine in such Secretary's sole unreviewable discretion that subsection (a)(3)(B) shall not apply with respect to an alien within the scope of that subsection or that subsection (a)(3)(B)(vi)(III) shall not apply to a group within the scope of that subsection, except that no such wa iver may be extended to an alien who is within the scope of subsection (a)(3)(B)(i)(II), no such waiver may be extended to an alien who is a member or representative of, has voluntarily and knowingly engaged in or endorsed or espoused or persuaded others to endorse or espouse or support terrorist activity on behalf of, or has voluntarily and knowingly received military-type training from a terrorist organization that is described in subclause (I) or (II) of subsection (a)(3)(B)(vi), and no such waiver may b e extended to a group that has engaged terrorist activity against the United States or another democratic country or that has purposefully engaged in a pattern or practice of terrorist activity that is directed at civilians. Such a determination shall neither prejudice the ability of the United States Government to commence criminal or civil proceedings involving a beneficiary of such a determination or any other person, nor create any substantive or procedural right or benefit for a beneficiary of such a d etermination or any other person. Notwithstanding any other provision of law (statutory or nonstatutory), including section 2241 of title 28, or any other habeas corpus provision, and sections 1361 and 1651 of such title, no court shall have jurisdiction to review such a determination or revocation except in a proceeding for review of a final order of removal pursuant to section 1252 of this title, and review shall be limited to the extent provided in section 1252(a)(2)(D). The Secretary of State may not ex ercise the discretion provided in this clause with respect to an alien at any time during which the alien is the subject of pending removal proceedings under section 1229a of this title.
so, do you have anything other than your biased source to back up your claim that this is an abuse of powers, illegal, unconstitutional, or in any way improper?
You have done nothing to refute PC's claim. All you've done is talk like you have a paper asshole while trying to shift the burden of proof to PC.
She posted it, the burden is on you to disprove it.
Or better yet, just shut the fuck up.
That would be the smart play for you right now
Cat Stevens on a no fly? I mean ... really.
