Obedient to the Will of God

[Foxfyre]

I know what it is to be obedient to God and, unfortunately, I know first hand what it is to be disobedient. (I don't recommend the latter. )

Jeremiah, I do not in any way question your faith, your love for God, or that you are truly blessed as one of his disciples. But I have to say that I just can't agree that God gave us Obama. He probably allowed it because you are right that we have become a stiff necked and rebellious people, but I just can't believe that he put us all here with no ability to change the course of our own history. I cannot see how that would not make us pre-programmed marionettes with our lives already mapped out and no choice or will to repent or change our ways.

We as a people have become increasing hedonistic, rebellious, uncaring, and even contentious in our relationship with God, and the Bible is full of the histories that there are and will be consequences for that. But I have to believe that he also gave us free will and the power to love and the ability to choose to change our course and the outcome.[/QUOTE

And Jeremiah responded:

I stand corrected, Foxfyre. You are right. I can agree with you that God "permitted it" vs. chose this for us because truthfully we put ourselves in this mess by the very definition you have given - increasing hedonistic, rebellious, uncaring and even contentious in our relationship with God. I see myself as undone here this morning. I have been helping a family member ( actually two) I should not have been helping and God opened my eyes to it recently and it is very painful to realize I was working against Him. Here God is trying to answer my prayers for them by bringing them to their knees and I am sending money which is the equivalent of putting a pillow under their head!

Last night He gave me the scripture the way of the transgressor is hard. I was about to send them more money! I tell my husband and he says God gave me that scripture twice yesterday, I didn't want to tell you. So these people who I was trying to help have caused me to sin against God! I am confessing my sins here because I'm sure I am not the only one who has been blindsided by their emotions before. Besides it might help someone here realize it isn't always the will of God for you to bail someone out of something. It is the same reason on a larger scale that God is not bailing America out of this mess. It is 2 Chronicles 7: 14 but I was putting that scripture in reverse by my own actions. I could not figure out the will of God in that matter until He saw I was willing to do it. Am I more merciful than God? God forbid I ever act like it. I was actively hindering His plan and my own prayers. On a larger scale I think America has done the same thing!

I sorta think God probably gave you a gold star for a) being compassionate and b) for understanding his counsel that our idea of compassion and his idea of compassion aren't always the same thing. I just wish on a larger scale that those folks running our welfare system could learn that truth.

I do wish some of those those coming into this thread were more open minded, tolerant, and interested in the topic than being hell bent on attacking the Christian faith and/or disrespecting you.

It isn't rocket science. One doesn't have to be a 'believer' to get into the spirit of it. All one has to do to participate constructively rather than be a mean spirited troll is to go with the question: "IF God exists, how would he go about disciplining his people?

Jeremiah has give us an interesting topic. All we need is some interesting people to discuss it.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Delta, personal attacks are not considered comments on a religion forum thread. That is what the flame zone or badlands forum are for. Respect my thread or go.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

That is an interesting question, Foxfyre. How does God discipline His people? How does he get the attention of those who are not yet believers? I have always felt with unbelievers it is His kindness that leads them to repentance. I would never not help a neighbors children because their father refused to work. I would see myself as helping the children and would do whatever I could for them no matter what their parents did or didn't do. With my particular case the family member has no one but themself to take care of. With no rent for a year. My sending alot of money and no change and recently the person told my son I don't want to hear anything about God. In other words, just keep sending money and let me keep heading towards hell so I can enjoy myself on the way there. I think God got my attention first with my husband saying I do not think you are helping this person! Then I had no peace about it and the Lord gave me that scripture about the way of the transgressor being hard. This made me realize I am hindering my own prayers for this person because in this particular case I was not led by the Spirit but rather by my own emotions of sympathy. I do not like to see people suffer but if we think about our own walk with God can surely remember times when we learned from the LORD by our suffering. Even Jesus learned obedience by the things He suffered. That is in scripture. Jesus learned obedience by the things He suffered. That is how we learn to obey God and our parents even growing up. We disobey and suffer a consequence. Still I am a person who waits a long, long time ( too long most times ) before I say something after I see it. I saw it some time ago if I really think back on it. I just waited too long. The good news is the person is still alive - where there is life there is hope - always. I believe Delta dislikes my quoting of scripture and testimonies because it is troubling his conscience somehow. I can understand that because the Word of God is the discerner of the heart and exposes what is on the inside.

 

[Foxfyre]

I think we run into trouble when we try too hard to interpret what God says to others. Better for it to just come naturally and not be afraid to give our witness as appropriate as you did.

You became aware that God was putting on your heart to not be so eager to help the folks financially because that was interfering with what God was teaching them. I am not there, have not seen, have no knowledge of the situation, but I have absolutely no reason to disbelieve your testimony about that. And anyway, right or wrong, it harms me in no way to accept your testimony about that at face value.

I get messages from the darndest places and in some of the most unexpected ways sometimes, and after a lengthy life, I am certain of one thing: God doesn't have just one way to do anything and just as we ourselves cannot be God, we also aren't smart enough to figure out how what he will do or how he will do it.

I am reminded that the same Ben Franklin who said this:

“The best thing to give to your enemy is forgiveness; to an opponent, tolerance; to a friend, your heart; to your child, a good example; to a father, deference; to your mother, conduct that will make her proud of you; to yourself, respect; to all men, charity.”​

Also said this:

"I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I traveled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer."​

I think the wisest person can understand how both comments are true and right on target.

 

[Avatar4321]

I don't believe Obama would be in office if the Lord didn't allow it. I don't think this is because of some specific desire for him. But i do think it's because our society is so disobedient the Lord is giving us what we want. We can do so much better. and I think if we were obedient, we would have much better leadership.

More importantly, we wouldn't need leadership if we followed the Lord, He would teach us correct principles and we would govern ourselves.

 

[Foxfyre]

I don't believe Obama would be in office if the Lord didn't allow it. I don't think this is because of some specific desire for him. But i do think it's because our society is so disobedient the Lord is giving us what we want. We can do so much better. and I think if we were obedient, we would have much better leadership.

More importantly, we wouldn't need leadership if we followed the Lord, He would teach us correct principles and we would govern ourselves.

It has been my experience that the Lord rarely intervenes to keep us from choosing to do that which is really stupid. He likely does counsel us not to do it, but too few are listening or paying attention. I put Obama in the category of choosing something that is really stupid. Whether he is a punishment for an increasingly hedonistic, corrupt, stiff necked people, many of who behave like little gods, I can't make that leap of faith. Nor do I reject it as a possibility.

But I also read again and again where God raised up this person or that person for God's purposes and I believe that is still happening to this day. There is so much teaching about spiritual gifts to equip us to carry out the ministries we are called to do, and I have to believe leadership is one of those callings; one of those ministries. Perhaps that is because we are all created as individuals with different tastes, preferences, and abilities and somebody needs to be in charge so that we can function effectively as one body. I don't know.

I think I'll add that question to my list.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I don't believe Obama would be in office if the Lord didn't allow it. I don't think this is because of some specific desire for him. But i do think it's because our society is so disobedient the Lord is giving us what we want. We can do so much better. and I think if we were obedient, we would have much better leadership.

More importantly, we wouldn't need leadership if we followed the Lord, He would teach us correct principles and we would govern ourselves.

I agree with you, Avatar. The Lord definitely allowed it or it would not have happened! On the matter of our disobedience or giving us what we want I believe it is both - remember Samuel when God told him they have asked for a king so go ahead and give them what they asked for - just tell them not to complain about it once they really what they have asked for - ( paraphrasing - not quoting scripture here ) On last comment - doubtful we'd adopt Israel's earlier days of the prophet and hopefully we will not go do a "literal king" but I believe the founding fathers were inspired by God in their drafting of the Constitution - our Bill of Rights - our 3 branches of Government - the problem is a 4th branch - regulations , etc. has usurped the power of the other 3 from operating as they were designed to. We need to return to 3 branches and get rid of the fourth. Return to our Constitution and bill of Rights but seriously I do not believe we will return to our former days.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I think we run into trouble when we try too hard to interpret what God says to others. Better for it to just come naturally and not be afraid to give our witness as appropriate as you did.

You became aware that God was putting on your heart to not be so eager to help the folks financially because that was interfering with what God was teaching them. I am not there, have not seen, have no knowledge of the situation, but I have absolutely no reason to disbelieve your testimony about that. And anyway, right or wrong, it harms me in no way to accept your testimony about that at face value.

I get messages from the darndest places and in some of the most unexpected ways sometimes, and after a lengthy life, I am certain of one thing: God doesn't have just one way to do anything and just as we ourselves cannot be God, we also aren't smart enough to figure out how what he will do or how he will do it.

I am reminded that the same Ben Franklin who said this:

“The best thing to give to your enemy is forgiveness; to an opponent, tolerance; to a friend, your heart; to your child, a good example; to a father, deference; to your mother, conduct that will make her proud of you; to yourself, respect; to all men, charity.”​

Also said this:

"I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I traveled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer."​

I think the wisest person can understand how both comments are true and right on target.

One way I know God was telling me no, Foxfyre, is that I have a perfect peace about it now and in the natural this would be a very uncomfortable situation for me because my inclination in my flesh would be to make people happy! The truth is I thought this was right because I failed to ask God first. So when I was helping I had a troubling feeling about it and was seriously questioning what was going on. I kept asking God about it and that was what I got. Then I obeyed God. Now I have my peace back. The enemy is always searching for some area, some angle, some place he can get you out of the will of God - and when he knows he cannot get you one way he will go for the other. It is the nature of the enemy. The moment I recognize it's him? He's out. I do not care what it is over. I obey God.

 

[sealybobo]

We know the will of God once we determine to be obedient to the will of God. If God discerns that we are determined to do our own will - He is most merciful not to permit us to see His own will because then we'd be in open rebellion. As it is, some are just ignorant as to what they are doing. If we are born again, that should not be. It is not difficult to know the will of God in discerning what He would have us to do concerning authority figures. If you are given a ticket for speeding, you are not at liberty to decide whether or not you will appear in court. If you don't appear, they will come and arrest you. If you do not pay the fine, they will put you in jail until you do pay the fine. With each violation of the law the penalty grows greater and greater until one day you wake up and realize that had you obeyed the law to not speed in the first place - you would never have been pulled over.

Some have prayed - let Obama be removed from office. Let another take his place. He is an unjust ruler. I've thought about this. He is an unjust ruler ruling an unjust, rebellious people. If God had not determined long ago that this was the person He would permit to replace George Bush Jr. he would not be in office today. Yet he is. Another election has come and gone and he is still in office. Now the people say, let us impeach him. No. You won't be impeaching anyone because as it stands? This is the will of God in the matter. While continuing on in greater and greater discontent the people have yet to realize this is a reflection of where we are at as a people. Were we to repent, submit to God, pray for the nation, everything would turn around because God would have no reason to not hear our prayers. He is bound to His own word. If we do it His way, we get His results. If we do not do it His way, we do not get His results.

What is the problem here? We have not been obedient to the will of God. We have tried to force God's Hand to conform to our own will while praying thine will be done. A double minded man will not receive anything from God. Why don't we know the will of God in certain matters? Because we have not been interested in the will of God. We've been interested in our own will which is not the same as God's will. While we are consumed with temporal matters here upon the earth, God is looking at eternal matters that will effect us long after we depart from this earth. It seems like now would be the perfect time to determine to be obedient to the will of God so that we can realize we do not know what is best for us. God knows what is best for us. We need to get off the throne of our own lives. The sooner the better.

See everyone the problem with god and his believers? They are truly stupid and very easily manipulated. Your god sucks.

 

[Foxfyre]

There is no system, Jeremiah but that which each man has decided to live for himself. Rebellion is simply whatever you choose it to be.

I find it amazing that life is extremely short and if your god is found in each living thing then it is not your relationship to god but your relationship to each living thing.

The Christian faith however is based, among other things, on the concept that life is not extremely short but is rather eternal. It is only our mortal existence here and now that is finite. We are all pretty unified in that basic concept.

In your other point, there is less unity of thought, but what seems to be a basic universal sense that God cannot be separated from His Creation. The ancient ones believed that in the beginning, that Creation was unspoiled, perfect in every regard, truly a Utopia for all creatures that lived on it. But it was the willful sin of humankind, created in God's image, that has spoiled that perfect Creation and continues to do so. As the Bible metaphor goes: the sins of the fathers are visited upon the children even unto the fourth and fifth generations. In other words, the consequences of our sin may or may not be noticeable to us, but they will be evident for others on down the line. One way we honor and worship God is to obey his requirements for how to use the wonderful gift of the Earth and universe that he has given us.

So getting back to the OP, perhaps President Obama is the consequence for so many generations of failing to do it God's way.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

There is no system, Jeremiah but that which each man has decided to live for himself. Rebellion is simply whatever you choose it to be.

I find it amazing that life is extremely short and if your god is found in each living thing then it is not your relationship to god but your relationship to each living thing.

The Christian faith however is based, among other things, on the concept that life is not extremely short but is rather eternal. It is only our mortal existence here and now that is finite. We are all pretty unified in that basic concept.

In your other point, there is less unity of thought, but what seems to be a basic universal sense that God cannot be separated from His Creation. The ancient ones believed that in the beginning, that Creation was unspoiled, perfect in every regard, truly a Utopia for all creatures that lived on it. But it was the willful sin of humankind, created in God's image, that has spoiled that perfect Creation and continues to do so. As the Bible metaphor goes: the sins of the fathers are visited upon the children even unto the fourth and fifth generations. In other words, the consequences of our sin may or may not be noticeable to us, but they will be evident for others on down the line. One way we honor and worship God is to obey his requirements for how to use the wonderful gift of the Earth and universe that he has given us.

So getting back to the OP, perhaps President Obama is the consequence for so many generations of failing to do it God's way.

There is no question that life is eternal and will be lived out in one of two places, Foxfyre. Heaven or hell. The Old Testament and the New Testament reveal scripture about hell and about heaven - the throne room of God was seen by Isaiah - Isaiah 700 years or more - prophesied of Jesus Christ and God himself prophesied His plan in Genesis because man lost what he had been given by God in the garden. Through the cross man was given back his dominion authority to rule and reign as Adam had been given originally in Genesis 1: 26, 27 and then again in Psalm 8 King David speaks of this dominion. Man was created in the image of God - is the apex of God's creation and through sin that image was marred. We can honor and worship God through our obedience to him because he is not interested in our sacrifices being a replacement for obedience. The story of Cain and Abel makes that clear.

We've got Christians who think they can use something God said, take it out of context, in order to justify themselves in their rebellion against authority. I recall meeting a Christian years ago who told me they didn't have to pay taxes because of the story of Jesus, Peter and the gold coin. If he doesn't pay his taxes - he will be in jail. Yet he used that as an excuse to justify himself. Another excuse I have heard before was people who run for public office have a personal agenda and want that power to so they can wield it for their own personal advantage against those they do not like. If that be the case, let God handle them, but you still obey the law of the land. In other words, state your case and then drop it. There is nothing more that can be done other than to place such matters into Gods hands.

* I do not believe in generational curses on the born again Christian. It isn't scriptural. The past is gone. All things become new in Christ. If you walk in the Spirit you won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Sin is sin. The Gospel is simple. A child can undestand it. Men complicate things in order to sell books, seminars, and another way that leads both them and the people who follow them into a ditch.

 

[Foxfyre]

I will gently disagree, Jeremiah, that there are no generational 'curses' on the born again Christian. “He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.” – Matthew 5:45. (Or in some translations "on the righteous and on the unrighteous.) The born again Christian suffers under a bad leader like Obama just as the non believer does. The choices made by one generation affect those in subsequent generations regardless of who they are. The circumstances we are born into were decided for us.

We all experience like circumstances, but as Christians we are to rise above our circumstances. We are to make the circumstances better for the next generation. The passage closes with: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” – Matthew 5:48

We don't have to give the next generation another Obama. And I believe God will help us not to do that if we just pay attention.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]