ok. I will ask. SunniMan.....

[emilynghiem]

Jesus says love your neighbour several times in the new testament, but he also says love your enemies.

Lu:6:27: But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

Also Matthew 5:44

One pastor explained to love someone is to care for someone's soul.
So you can personally dislike someone and not want anything to do with them personally
and still pray and care for their soul with love just like anyone else on the planet.
You would want them to be well, to be freed from sickness anger or delusion, so they do not cause themselves or others to suffer.

Dajjal: Can you cite the exact verse where Mohammad or Islam teaches
that no man is a believer who does not want for others what he wants for himself?

Also, do you know the scripture or teaching that if one does not make peace with
others, then acts of goodness or charity mean nothing?

This is similar to the Bible about making peace with a brother BEFORE offering anything up to God on the altar.

But in Islam it is given differently. putting an emphasis on making peace with others first.
do you know what verse that is, if it is the hadith or bidda (?)

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear DT: Thank you for bringing up a good point. I replied before, previously on the other thread, pointing out that under our Constitutional laws which give Corporations equal personhood, we still allow for slave labor in other countries and buy this with our consumerism.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...slim-and-i-hate-terrorism-14.html#post7157685
So we would not throw out Christian law for the same reason we would not throw out Constitutional laws that also allowed people to practice slavery
until legal abolition or reform under the civil authorities.

However, since your question merits a more specific answer about Jesus and the Bible:
1. Jesus did say we cannot put Mammon or material gain before God or spiritual value.
So this would trump any kind of slavery based on material wealth and profit before human value. His whole message was about ending slavery, but starting spiritually first as the key.
2. Jesus did debate with Pharisees in the temple, so he may have addressed them on their part in this. If the system of slavery is under the state laws, then to change that system requires evolving to the point where the people change the laws. If this is under civil laws, then these are not in the Bible, but left to later generations as we can see our Constitutional system reformed this.
3. Jesus did say to sell off or give away all possessions, take up the cross and follow him.
So in this way, becoming completely detached from material controls, then slavery is not an issue on the level of living that he is addressing.
The Bible says there is no male or female Jew or Gentile BOND NOR FREE but all are one in Christ Jesus. So the spiritual truth sets one free of worldly conditions; this happens in spirit first, and then the society structures change after the people change priorities. The first step is to be liberated in spirit, so this was the focus on the Kingdom of God.

This may be similar to how Buddha liberated people's thinking about castes in Hinduism, where it used to be that people thought once you were born into a station in life you were stuck; but Buddha taught that one could transcend and rise above these spiritual castes and karma. Likewise Jesus was teaching people of the Kingdom of God and spiritual salvation.

Gracie, why not ask if all Jews have to abide by Talmudic law in order to be Jews? Do all Hindus have to abide by Vedic law? Do all Christians have to abide by Mosiac law?

The answer is not in the least. Those ancient laws have been superceded. Certainly individuals can choose to live by them as long as they do not clash with civil laws. Under the laws of Moses you were allowed to not only own slaves but also to kill them. Do you expect modern Christians to agree with those laws?

Christians never ever have had to abide by those laws in the OT.

Jesus did not repeal the Mosiac laws regarding slavery. There are NT verses pertaining to how Christian slaves must obey and serve their masters and how Christian masters must treat their slaves.

Ephesians 6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ,

Colossians 4:1 Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.

1 Peter 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust.

Colossians 3:22 Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.

Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.

1 Timothy 6:1-2 Let all who are under a yoke as slaves regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the ground that they are brothers; rather they must serve all the better since those who benefit by their good service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these things.

But you lie about the OT

Own slaves and kill them? What law by the Lord was that?

Exodus 21:20-21 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money."

In other words if you only mortally wound your slave and he takes more than 24 hours to die then there is no punishment because it was the slave owners money that was lost.

Now having read the good book more than once I know you are a liar or stupid beyond.

Perhaps you should try reading it yet again since you seem to have missed all of those verses on every attempt.

 

[emilynghiem]

As a discussion regarding Sharia Law is broader in focus than honor killing or the opinion of one poster, the European Court of Human Rights has clearly set forth their opinion about this subject.

"...in 2004 the European Court of Human Rights "found that sharia was incompatible with the fundamental principles of democracy… It considered that “sharia, which faithfully reflects the dogmas and divine rules laid down by religion, is stable and invariable. Principles such as pluralism in the political sphere or the constant evolution of public freedoms have no place in it. According to the Court, it was difficult to declare one’s respect for democracy and human rights while at the same time supporting a regime based on sharia, which clearly diverged from Convention values, particularly with regard to its criminal law and criminal procedure, its rules on the legal status of women and the way it intervened in all spheres of private and public life in accordance with religious precepts.”

Council of Europe - Conseil de l'Europe

I can assure you that muslims do not give a rat's ass what a European/Western court has to say about Sharia or other associated Islamic issues.

True story.......

Dear Sunni and Indored:
A. Can you please specify what is meant by Shariah?
A1. The head of CAIR said there is no Shariah Law, but only the practices in Islam called Shariah including giving of charity, and traditions for the prayer and dress.
A2. but people keep using this to mean when the govts are taken over by religious authorities who use the secular positions of govt to IMPOSE or regulate these religious customs by mixing with state institutions and mandatory laws etc.
Doesn't this clearly go against the teaching about no compulsion?
That any practice should be chosen and exercised freely, not forced by the state?
Even where one is compelled to follow God to avoid bad consequences of selfish evil,
this is still by free choice when it comes to religion.

Can you please specify how to distinguish the difference between
A1. FREELY CHOSEN practices required in Islam such as giving charity
A2. and MANDATORY regulations when govts adopt or enforce rules relating to religion.

B. Also Sunni can you please answer the other question
in the previous post,
that if the 10 commandments are universal for Jews Christians and Muslims
then how can these be "on the same level of Shariah" that is only for Muslims.
Also isn't the Shariah interpreted FROM the Quran wehre the Quran is the original source not Shariah which is
law derived from Quranic scripture. So again, how can Shariah be on the same level as original scripture if it is derived from it?

And if Shariah differs from one country to another,
how can that be like the 10 commandments that are uniform and do not change,
they are given as written, and any adaptation is different and separate from the
original 10 commandments.

C. Also would you consent to live in a country where the govt would enforce
having your hand chopped off if you were found guilty of theft.
Do you really agree to that, or do you insist on having Constitutional due process
enforced so this is indeed necessary in order to protect human rights.

Would you trust a country or govt to practice Islam or Shariah
without being under the same Constitutional principles as in the US?
Would you agree to live in that country equally as you support others to live under Shariah enforced by govt?
If you do not support Shariah enforced by govt, then how do you propose to change this, with or without US help?

Thank youSunni!

 

[amrchaos]

Christians never ever have had to abide by those laws in the OT.

But you lie about the OT

Own slaves and kill them? What law by the Lord was that?

Now having read the good book more than once I know you are a liar or stupid beyond.

That's bullshit.

You seem to forget all about the "Dark Ages".

Yeah...so...that was ages ago.
This is now.
You notice Sunni didn't really answer any questions specifically.

Such as....if he knew of a group of men stoned a girl to her death because she had an affair touting Sharia law. Would he or not - turn those men in for murder?
Simple question that requires a single word to answer.

I have a question now


Are you saying that Christianity and its practice "evolved", or was there "enlightened inspiration" that led Christianity away from the dark practices of enslavement, harsh practices and torture as was instituted by inquisitors?

 

[Dajjal]

Dajjal: Can you cite the exact verse where Mohammad or Islam teaches
that no man is a believer who does not want for others what he wants for himself?

You have me beaten there, I cannot recall such a verse.

 

[amrchaos]

Hey Sunni Man, How the hell did you end up as a muslim in the first place, and why are you still one when you have read my posts pointing out the qurans obvious flaws?

The quran obviously says the earth is flat, and the sun orbits it in a semi circle and is reset every dawn.
See sura 36.38

The Quran has no flaws in either content or description of the universe.

The problem is that you are using a translation from arabic to english in order to make your case.

And no, the Quran does't say the earth is flat and the other nonsense you claim.

I have addressed this issue before.......

Actually, a flaw" would be the use of St Thomas

 

[Sunni Man]

It is a Hadith: (recorded words of Muhammad)

The Messenger of Allah said: “None of you truly believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself.”

 

[CMike]

Jesus says love your neighbour several times in the new testament, but he also says love your enemies.

Lu:6:27: But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

Right. Which is greater? To know what Jesus said or to be doing what Jesus said?

The reason I ask is because I do see the Israelis have loved their enemies and done good to those who hated them without a cause - they take them into their hospitals and give them medical care without any biast. They show love, care and concern for those who have been caught in the middle of this conflict concerning Gaza - Hamas - Israel - they seek to find understanding and dialogue where others would have given up long ago.

To me this is the evidence they are fulfilling that command without ever bringing any attention to themselves. It is to me very Christlike behavior and if I had to measure our own response collectively ( by actual historical accounts ) to such trials it wouldn't measure up to theirs. imo.

We have alot to learn yet.

I appreciate your kind words.

However, the Torah doesn't tell us we have to love our enemies.

In fact, it says that if you know someone is coming to kill you, you should kill him first.

 

[Sunni Man]

However, the Torah doesn't tell us we have to love our enemies.

In fact, it says that if you know someone is coming to kill you, you should kill him first.

Chapter and verse please.

Thanks ..

 

[amrchaos]

Sunni, the book of Imran is flawed because your prophet refers to Mary the Mother of Jesus as Moses sister ( Miriam ) it is quite clear in the text that he is speaking about Aaron and his sister yet he goes into Moses sister having an angel appear to her to tell her she'd have a child. Jesus! There is a 1600 yr gap. So yes, that was a very obvious mistake. - Jeri

Au contraire Mon ami; The Quran was sent down to correct obvious mistakes in the Torah and the Bible.......

So according to the Prophet Mohammad, Moses sister ( Miriam ) was Jesus mother. Who would have known?

Thank you so much for enlightening me concerning the book of Imran. I could have sworn that Miriam lived about 1600 years prior to Mary - mother of Jesus being born.

As you say the Qur'an was sent to correct obvious mistakes the Torah and NT made so the Jews are probably about as grateful as I am for your clarifying this mystery for us. Thank you, Sunni. Your honesty is once again truly appreciated.


Are you reading this today, Mike?

- Jeri

First thing First--you are trying to use "physical realities" to prove or disprove "Metaphysical statements"

For instance, Science implies that it would be impossible for the earth to be formed, cooled, and man come dancing up on it within 6 days--but it is in Genesis and Jews(I maybe mistaken--I really am not an expert on Judaism so you may have to ask Jew this question) believe as part of their faith

Also, there is the case that Jesus died by cruxifiction, laid in a tomb without medical aid for 3 days(?), rose up and was sprightly enough to wear disgusies and avoid detection by all(except his prison guards(??), his mother, some disciples). Scientifically this seems preposterous as well, but yet we are dealing with Metaphysical statements here.

Thus, to assume that Jesus mother was not Moses sister and that she could not have been resurrected 1600 years later is not a true "Metaphysical statement" is itself not taken in account the following statement about Metaphysics in the Judaic/Christian/Islamic belief system:::"Through God, all things are possible"

Therefore, using the truth of the Metaphysical, Moses sister could very well have been Jesus mother.

Now I am an Atheist--and I find it "disturbing"(not really--laughable is more the wrod choice here!!) when "believers" use the arguement of "physical realities"(science) to discredit others belief but then turn around and discard the argument of "physical realities"(science) when examining their own.

Come to think about it--it is down right hypocritical, unless you don't believe in any metaphysical statements that proposes preposterous events onto reality.

Careful now--that is the dividing line between believer and non-believer.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Au contraire Mon ami; The Quran was sent down to correct obvious mistakes in the Torah and the Bible.......

So according to the Prophet Mohammad, Moses sister ( Miriam ) was Jesus mother. Who would have known?

Thank you so much for enlightening me concerning the book of Imran. I could have sworn that Miriam lived about 1600 years prior to Mary - mother of Jesus being born.

As you say the Qur'an was sent to correct obvious mistakes the Torah and NT made so the Jews are probably about as grateful as I am for your clarifying this mystery for us. Thank you, Sunni. Your honesty is once again truly appreciated.


Are you reading this today, Mike?

- Jeri

First thing First--you are trying to use "physical realities" to prove or disprove "Metaphysical statements"

For instance, Science implies that it would be impossible for the earth to be formed, cooled, and man come dancing up on it within 6 days--but it is in Genesis and Jews(I maybe mistaken--I really am not an expert on Judaism so you may have to ask Jew this question) believe as part of their faith

Purely rhetorical question springs to mind. If the "6 day creation" myth in Genesis is fundamental to Judaism then why is it only Christian zealots who are trying to impose it on public school children?

 

[amrchaos]

So according to the Prophet Mohammad, Moses sister ( Miriam ) was Jesus mother. Who would have known?

Thank you so much for enlightening me concerning the book of Imran. I could have sworn that Miriam lived about 1600 years prior to Mary - mother of Jesus being born.

As you say the Qur'an was sent to correct obvious mistakes the Torah and NT made so the Jews are probably about as grateful as I am for your clarifying this mystery for us. Thank you, Sunni. Your honesty is once again truly appreciated.


Are you reading this today, Mike?

- Jeri

First thing First--you are trying to use "physical realities" to prove or disprove "Metaphysical statements"

For instance, Science implies that it would be impossible for the earth to be formed, cooled, and man come dancing up on it within 6 days--but it is in Genesis and Jews(I maybe mistaken--I really am not an expert on Judaism so you may have to ask Jew this question) believe as part of their faith

Purely rhetorical question springs to mind. If the "6 day creation" myth in Genesis is fundamental to Judaism then why is it only Christian zealots who are trying to impose it on public school children?

Remember this--Judaism is Fundemental to Christianity--without it, what you have left is the pagan philosophies of Plato/Aristotle/Socrates(namely, ethics) and parts/plagarized remnants of other religions.

Add in the concept that Christians tend to think that everything that is good/beneficial is of god, therefore Jesus. therefore the byproduct of christianity and therefore subject to christian control, it is no surprise to see Fundies trying to dictate what children should be taught.

The only problem I have with my own opinion(as it actually is) is that we do not see Fundies trying to control even more things including the interpretation of the constitution,as according to the Bible, the dictation of American lifestyles, the criminalization of ususry(interests) and so forth.

Or maybe they are, and I am not that observant!!

 

[koshergrl]

What utter garbage.

 

[koshergrl]

So according to the Prophet Mohammad, Moses sister ( Miriam ) was Jesus mother. Who would have known?

Thank you so much for enlightening me concerning the book of Imran. I could have sworn that Miriam lived about 1600 years prior to Mary - mother of Jesus being born.

As you say the Qur'an was sent to correct obvious mistakes the Torah and NT made so the Jews are probably about as grateful as I am for your clarifying this mystery for us. Thank you, Sunni. Your honesty is once again truly appreciated.


Are you reading this today, Mike?

- Jeri

First thing First--you are trying to use "physical realities" to prove or disprove "Metaphysical statements"

For instance, Science implies that it would be impossible for the earth to be formed, cooled, and man come dancing up on it within 6 days--but it is in Genesis and Jews(I maybe mistaken--I really am not an expert on Judaism so you may have to ask Jew this question) believe as part of their faith

Purely rhetorical question springs to mind. If the "6 day creation" myth in Genesis is fundamental to Judaism then why is it only Christian zealots who are trying to impose it on public school children?

Because we are sick of loons passing off their theories, which are long on assumption and short on actual evidence, as "science". If schools are going to teach crap creation theories, they might as well teach our creation theory along with them.

Otherwise, quit teaching your crap as "fact".

 

[Derideo_Te]

First thing First--you are trying to use "physical realities" to prove or disprove "Metaphysical statements"

For instance, Science implies that it would be impossible for the earth to be formed, cooled, and man come dancing up on it within 6 days--but it is in Genesis and Jews(I maybe mistaken--I really am not an expert on Judaism so you may have to ask Jew this question) believe as part of their faith

Purely rhetorical question springs to mind. If the "6 day creation" myth in Genesis is fundamental to Judaism then why is it only Christian zealots who are trying to impose it on public school children?

Remember this--Judaism is Fundemental to Christianity--without it, what you have left is the pagan philosophies of Plato/Aristotle/Socrates(namely, ethics) and parts/plagarized remnants of other religions.

Add in the concept that Christians tend to think that everything that is good/beneficial is of god, therefore Jesus. therefore the byproduct of christianity and therefore subject to christian control, it is no surprise to see Fundies trying to dictate what children should be taught.

The only problem I have with my own opinion(as it actually is) is that we do not see Fundies trying to control even more things including the interpretation of the constitution,as according to the Bible, the dictation of American lifestyles, the criminalization of ususry(interests) and so forth.

Or maybe they are, and I am not that observant!!

The attempts to obstruct gay marriage and outlaw abortion fit into the category of trying to interpret the "constitution,as according to the Bible, the dictation of American lifestyles" in my opinion.

 

[koshergrl]

Bullshit. Using that same crap reasoning, you could argue that laws against murder are biblical *interpretation*.

Grow the fuck up and argue for real. Stop boring us with this juvenile bullshit. My god you people are so stupid. No wonder our country is screwed.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Bullshit. Using that same crap reasoning, you could argue that laws against murder are biblical *interpretation*.

Grow the fuck up and argue for real. Stop boring us with this juvenile bullshit. My god you people are so stupid. No wonder our country is screwed.

Does anyone besides KG know which posts she is throwing hissyfits about in this thread?

 

[koshergrl]

The post directly above my response.

Like I said. Juvenile. And stupid.

 

[CMike]

However, the Torah doesn't tell us we have to love our enemies.

In fact, it says that if you know someone is coming to kill you, you should kill him first.

Chapter and verse please.

Thanks ..

"If someone comes to kill you, get up and kill him first" (Talmud Bavli, Berachot 5a based on Exodus 22:1).



Exodus 22



1. If, while breaking in, the thief is discovered, and he is struck and dies, [it is as if] he has no blood.


Rashi's commentary

If, while breaking in: [I.e.,] when he was breaking into the house.
he has no blood: [This signifies that] this is not [considered] murder. It is as though he [the thief] was [considered] dead from the start. Here the Torah teaches you [the lesson]: If someone comes to kill you, kill him first. And this one [the thief] has come to kill you, because he knows that no one [can] hold himself back and remain silent when he sees people taking his money. Therefore, he [the thief] has come with the acknowledgement that if the owner of the property were to stand up against him, he [the owner] would kill him [the thief]. -[From Sanh. 72a]

 

[Derideo_Te]

The post directly above my response.

Like I said. Juvenile. And stupid.

That would be your own post where you said "What utter garbage" so I agree that post was both "Juvenile. And stupid".

http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/290950-ok-i-will-ask-sunniman-post7164916.html#poststop

What is so difficult about using the

option?