Okay, I Have Issues With Christmas

[Big Black Dog]

DarkFury, I recommend you going back on your meds.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Because if He'd stayed dead, it would have been because He was just some guy, which wouldn't have done anything for anyone. It was the fact that He was the Son of God that made His death payable for our sins, and it was resurrection that proved He was the Son of God.

Gods.

Why did you THINK people made a big deal over Jesus?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Wouldn't have worked without the resurrection part.

How come the phrase 'resurrected for your sins' is not used instead? And why was resurrection necessary for his death to have saved you? Enquiring minds want to know.

Because if He'd stayed dead, it would have been because He was just some guy, which wouldn't have done anything for anyone. It was the fact that He was the Son of God that made His death payable for our sins, and it was resurrection that proved He was the Son of God.

no where in what you call the old testament does it say another man can die for your sins that is a pagan concept

The Bible is clear, and it is consistent: one person cannot die for the sins of another. In other words, the sins committed by one person cannot be wiped out by the punishment given to another. In Exodus 32:30-35, Moses asks Gd to punish him for the sin committed by the people in regards to the Golden Calf. Gd tells Moses that the person who committed the sin is the one who must receive the punishment. Then, in Deuteronomy 24:16, Gd simply states this as a basic principle, 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.' This concept is repeated in the Prophets, in Ezekiel 18: 'The soul that sinneth, it shall die... the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.' The prophet Jeremiah looks to the day when the mistaken belief that one man's death atones for another man's sins shall no longer be held by anyone: in Jeremiah 31:29-30, the prophet says: 'In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.'

What Jews Believe: Essay #1: No Vicarious Atonement


Christianity’s famous argument is that Isaiah 53 predicts Jesus. This chapter describes an afflicted “man” who carried the sins of others. They wish to suggest it refers to Jesus. However, one man does not get justly punished for another man’s sins, and nations are not punished for the sins of other nations (Radak, Isaiah, 53:4) as Jeremiah 31:29 says, “…every man will die for his own sin”. How then do we understand Isaiah 53? Let us review the chapter:


Isaiah 53
The Nations’ words:

“1. Who would believe what we had heard? For whom has the arm of G-d been revealed? 2. Formerly he grew like a sapling or like a root from arid ground; he had neither form nor grandeur; we saw him but without such visage that we could desire him. 3. He was despised and isolated from men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness. As one from whom we would hide our faces; he was despised and we had no regard for him. 4. But in truth it was our ills that he bore, and our pains that he carried – but we had regarded him diseased, stricken by G-d, and afflicted. 5. He was pained because of our rebellious sins and oppressed through our iniquities, the chastisement upon him was for our benefit, and through his wounds we were healed. 6. We have all strayed like sheep, each of us turning his own way, and G-d inflicted upon him, the iniquity of us all.7. He was persecuted and afflicted, but he did not open his mouth; like a sheep being led to the slaughter or an ewe that is silent before her shearers, he did not open his mouth. 8. Now that he has been released from captivity and judgment, who could have imagined such a generation? For he had been removed from the land of the living, an affliction upon them that was my people’s sin. 9. He submitted himself to his grave like wicked men; and the wealthy submitted to his executions, for committing no crime, and with no deceit in his mouth. 10. God desired to oppress him and He afflicted him; if his soul would acknowledge guilt, he would see offspring and live long days and the desire of G-d would succeed in his hand.


G-d’s Words:

11. He would see the purpose and be satisfied with his soul’s distress, with his knowledge My servant will vindicate the Righteous One to the multitudes, and their sins does he shoulder. 12. Therefore I will assign him a portion from the multitudes and he will divide the mighty as spoils, in return for having poured out his soul for death and being counted among the wicked, and he carried the sins of the many, and prayed for the sinners.”


Christianity divisively rewrote history. Jesus did not fulfill Isaiah 53’s prophecy, it’s just the opposite: Christianity fabricated the Jesus story, exactly in line with Isaiah 53. What Christianity presents as Jesus fulfilling Isaiah’s words is really the opposite – they plagiarized Isaiah. Christianity found a perfect story in the Torah, Isaiah 53. Here, The description is so pitiful, and evokes such sympathy; Christianity copied it and molded it into their fabrication of Jesus. Christianity, as you will read later in this article, capitalizes on the emotions of pity and suffering to attract adherents, making other transparent plagiarisms.

I don't recall asking. At no time did I say, "What do you think of what Christians believe and what they should believe, Reverend Guno? Oh, please preach to me the true way!"

I stated the Christian doctrine in answer to a question. It is what it is, and it did not contain any invitation or request to critique or correct it.

But now that you've given me this incredibly long, dull sermon on how you believe me to be wrong - which, trust me, I didn't read a word of - I STILL BELIEVE THE SAME THING.

And I still don't give a fat rat's furry arse what you think of it. In fact, I still don't believe that you think.

 

[Meriweather]

no where in what you call the old testament does it say another man can die for your sins that is a pagan concept

The Bible is clear, and it is consistent: one person cannot die for the sins of another. In other words, the sins committed by one person cannot be wiped out by the punishment given to another. In Exodus 32:30-35, Moses asks Gd to punish him for the sin committed by the people in regards to the Golden Calf. Gd tells Moses that the person who committed the sin is the one who must receive the punishment. Then, in Deuteronomy 24:16, Gd simply states this as a basic principle, 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.' This concept is repeated in the Prophets, in Ezekiel 18: 'The soul that sinneth, it shall die... the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.' The prophet Jeremiah looks to the day when the mistaken belief that one man's death atones for another man's sins shall no longer be held by anyone: in Jeremiah 31:29-30, the prophet says: 'In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.'

What Jews Believe: Essay #1: No Vicarious Atonement


Christianity’s famous argument is that Isaiah 53 predicts Jesus. This chapter describes an afflicted “man” who carried the sins of others. They wish to suggest it refers to Jesus. However, one man does not get justly punished for another man’s sins, and nations are not punished for the sins of other nations (Radak, Isaiah, 53:4) as Jeremiah 31:29 says, “…every man will die for his own sin”. How then do we understand Isaiah 53? Let us review the chapter:


Isaiah 53
The Nations’ words:

“1. Who would believe what we had heard? For whom has the arm of G-d been revealed? 2. Formerly he grew like a sapling or like a root from arid ground; he had neither form nor grandeur; we saw him but without such visage that we could desire him. 3. He was despised and isolated from men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness. As one from whom we would hide our faces; he was despised and we had no regard for him. 4. But in truth it was our ills that he bore, and our pains that he carried – but we had regarded him diseased, stricken by G-d, and afflicted. 5. He was pained because of our rebellious sins and oppressed through our iniquities, the chastisement upon him was for our benefit, and through his wounds we were healed. 6. We have all strayed like sheep, each of us turning his own way, and G-d inflicted upon him, the iniquity of us all.7. He was persecuted and afflicted, but he did not open his mouth; like a sheep being led to the slaughter or an ewe that is silent before her shearers, he did not open his mouth. 8. Now that he has been released from captivity and judgment, who could have imagined such a generation? For he had been removed from the land of the living, an affliction upon them that was my people’s sin. 9. He submitted himself to his grave like wicked men; and the wealthy submitted to his executions, for committing no crime, and with no deceit in his mouth. 10. God desired to oppress him and He afflicted him; if his soul would acknowledge guilt, he would see offspring and live long days and the desire of G-d would succeed in his hand.


G-d’s Words:

11. He would see the purpose and be satisfied with his soul’s distress, with his knowledge My servant will vindicate the Righteous One to the multitudes, and their sins does he shoulder. 12. Therefore I will assign him a portion from the multitudes and he will divide the mighty as spoils, in return for having poured out his soul for death and being counted among the wicked, and he carried the sins of the many, and prayed for the sinners.”


Christianity divisively rewrote history. Jesus did not fulfill Isaiah 53’s prophecy, it’s just the opposite: Christianity fabricated the Jesus story, exactly in line with Isaiah 53. What Christianity presents as Jesus fulfilling Isaiah’s words is really the opposite – they plagiarized Isaiah. Christianity found a perfect story in the Torah, Isaiah 53. Here, The description is so pitiful, and evokes such sympathy; Christianity copied it and molded it into their fabrication of Jesus. Christianity, as you will read later in this article, capitalizes on the emotions of pity and suffering to attract adherents, making other transparent plagiarisms.

This is painting with a rather broad brush. Different Christian denominations may vary, but very few denominations teach substitutionary punishment. There is also a difference between rewriting history and Christianity noting that certain events in Jewish history were a foreshadowing of Jesus. Note that foreshadowing need not be an exact replica.

The Passover Lamb was a sacrificial lamb, but its blood was not intended as an atonement for sins, but rather to save from death the Hebrews who had faith in God and His ways. In the same way, Christians see Jesus as a sacrificial lamb who willingly laid down his life to attest and affirm the new covenant he spoke of: That sins are forgiven. Those who believe in Christ and his teachings need not fear death. The sacrifice of an animal, or other sin offering, is no longer needed. We who are baptized into the life and death of Christ and are obedient to the will of God have been assured that sins are forgiven. Christ gave his own blood as the sign of this new covenant.

In addition, Christians have another sign that this is a valid covenant: The resurrection of Christ.

Isn't it true that people of the Jewish faith also believe in repentance (turning from sin and to God) for the forgiveness of sins?

 

[ChrisL]

I'm not religious. I celebrate the holiday. I have no issues with how other people celebrate the holiday. I go to dinner, spend time with family, exchange gifts and have a good time. That's what holidays are for!