OPINION: Criminal Law 101 - Self-Defense (Rittenhouse versus McMichaels)

[maybelooking]

The issue I'm having with BOTH cases is the prosecutorial discretion used.

In the Wisconsin case the prosecutor strongly suspected self defense but went for murder2 just because the process of defending himself was the punishment the prosecutor felt he wanted to inflict on Kyle...

In the Georgia case again the prosecutor didn't feel like prosecuting a retired police officer even though it really should have had a trial. (But public sentiment changed that)

Both cases in different states that both have horrible prosecutors.

While I dont have an opinion on guilt of those in GA (Ihavent been watching as I have been focussed on Kyle) I will say this

The OPTICS of the GA case is what will make the difference. 3 white men in a truck chasing down a black man........bam........youre screwed before the trial ever starts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kyle is fortunate everyone he shot was white.

 

[maybelooking]

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best meme of the week!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

When they said they are gonna kill you and try to take you gun, no, it's called self defense, commie. The prosecution has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that it was self defense. Their own witnesses proved it. Know you can stop your filthy sham of deceit.

What happened to jeopardy, opportunity & ability? As a former/current corrections officer you're required to know this aren't you.

Filth huh, bring it then

 

[TNHarley]

What difference does his choice of weapon make? He's still underage and I'm not sure about WI but in many states while the legal age to possess a long gun is 18, it's 21 for a handgun. He's be in violation of the law either way.

I'm not sure his alleged good deed offsets two dead bodies, but I guess we'll all see.

It certainly does. He could have been the one dead. But he isnt. Now he will be a hero for defending himself against violent kid fuckers and pinko vermin
Wonder if he is related to joseph mccarthey?

 

[easyt65]

It certainly does. He could have been the one dead. But he isnt. Now he will be a hero for defending himself against violent kid fuckers and pinko vermin
Wonder if he is related to joseph mccarthey?

I don't know about 'hero', but he isn't dead and probably won't go to jail.

 

[jc456]

In other words, you cannot antagonize someone or draw them into taking a swing at you so that you can shoot them and then turn around and claim self-defense even though we see this being allowed over and over again.

neither party did this.

 

[jc456]

What difference does his choice of weapon make? He's still underage and I'm not sure about WI but in many states while the legal age to possess a long gun is 18, it's 21 for a handgun. He's be in violation of the law either way.

I'm not sure his alleged good deed offsets two dead bodies, but I guess we'll all see.

forget all of your previous stipulations, Kyle was there, did have a gun, at the point of the rosenbaum encounter, what was Kyle's options? Are you saying he should have died? hahahahahhahhahaha yeah jack.

 

[TNHarley]

I don't know about 'hero', but he isn't dead and probably won't go to jail.

I went full sarcasm mode in that post after the joseph joke popped in my head lol

 

[JohnDB]

While I dont have an opinion on guilt of those in GA (Ihavent been watching as I have been focussed on Kyle) I will say this

The OPTICS of the GA case is what will make the difference. 3 white men in a truck chasing down a black man........bam........youre screwed before the trial ever starts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kyle is fortunate everyone he shot was white.

I have no opinion on the Georgia case either...the video isn't exactly the clearest.

But it needed a trial and hasn't had one...that's the whole reason for the outrage. And that outrage is deserving...it's a Shakey case that the prosecutor didn't want to have so they never charged anyone with anything because of who the people involved were. Justice wasn't blind that day...

Now, finally, years later there's charges brought and a trial like should have happened originally. That's the reason why it's important.

 

[jc456]

yo, still waiting for some rosenbaum racist lover to explain why he was after Kyle?

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

You seem to be trying to make excuses for poorly made fatal choices of his attackers, attempting to lay blame on their chosen victim.

No, I just seem to be the only person who paid attention in my training classes. Before they ever allowed us on the range we had to demonstrate our understanding and knowledge of many aspects of handling and carrying a firearm, ,most importantly when you can lawfully shoot and claim self-defense.

Our instructors were very adamant that when you start carrying a firearm, you have to change your behavior if you don't want the emotional and financial expenses of being tried for UNLAWFULLY killing someone, if you're successful, and/or the possible loss of life and/or freedom if not.

You don't insert yourself into volatile situations, you put your ego in check and walk away from a lot of things that are nothing but stupidity and words which can only hurt your pride. You don't insert yourself into other people's conflicts and you learn how to deescalate certain situation if possible, if you can't, then just remove yourself from the situation. Protests can turn into riots or other dangerous situations not just from the rioters but from law enforcement as well if they can't distinguish you from the rioters, vandals looters, etc.

Kyle has no one to blame but himself for the situation he's in now. This is what happens when people with no background, training or knowledge of the law think it's okay to pick up a weapon (unlawfully) and travel across state lines with it (unlawfully) and join in "the fun".

People who don't possess the knowledge or common sense to keep their own selves safe, yet for some reason some of you think that it's not only lawful but a good idea for these same people to attempt to detain and//or arrest others for violations of laws. That is insane on it's face.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

So has Wisconsin adopted the Model Penal Code? From what I have read, their law allows you to point a gun at anyone you believe is committing an "unlawful interference".

Anyway, KR is claiming the other guy pointed a gun at him first which the other guys seems to have admitted to, so I am not sure your facts comport with the testimony.

Aren't there two dead people prior to this one who lived to testify?

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

So has Wisconsin adopted the Model Penal Code? From what I have read, their law allows you to point a gun at anyone you believe is committing an "unlawful interference".

Anyway, KR is claiming the other guy pointed a gun at him first which the other guys seems to have admitted to, so I am not sure your facts comport with the testimony.

An "unlawful interference" with what?

 

[Dekster]

Aren't there two dead people prior to this one who lived to testify?

They have dead people testifying? No wonder this case is griping the nation.

 

[Dekster]

An "unlawful interference" with what?

His right to not have a gun pointed at him to begin with perhaps....

 

[Muhammed]

What difference does his choice of weapon make? He's still underage and I'm not sure about WI but in many states while the legal age to possess a long gun is 18, it's 21 for a handgun. He's be in violation of the law either way.

I'm not sure his alleged good deed offsets two dead bodies, but I guess we'll all see.

Actually the Wisconsin law has an exception that allows someone under the age of 18 to possess a firearm under adult supervision. Kyle was under adult supervision. He was with several adults, including his shooting instructor who actually owned the gun that the violent criminals tried to take from Kyle during their armed robbery attempts.

And that's a moot point anyways because the U.S. constitution supersedes Wisconsin state law. When Wisconsin joined the union they agreed that the U.S. constitution is the supreme law of the land.

The 2nd amendment of the U.S. says that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. That includes Kyle.

And the video evidence proves that Kyle shot in self-defense. He never shot at anyone who was not attacking him.

 

[theHawk]

I honestly don't understand how so many people who apparently carry weapons are unable to understand that if you point a gun at someone and they respond to this act with violence, particularly non-deadly violence, then you are unable to claim lawfully self-defense.

In other words, you cannot antagonize someone or draw them into taking a swing at you so that you can shoot them and then turn around and claim self-defense even though we see this being allowed over and over again.

There are currently two cases being tried in which the defendant is claiming self-defense. In the Rittenhouse case, he shouldn't have been armed in the first place due to his age, while in the case of the McMichaels they didn't just initiate the confrontation that led to the shooting, they chased Arbery according to the prosecution for 5 minutes before finally cornering him "like a rat" according to one of the defendants.

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"Ascertain the four elements required for self-defense.
To successfully claim self-defense, the defendant must prove four elements. First, with exceptions, the defendant must prove that he or she was confronted with an unprovoked attack. Second, the defendant must prove that the threat of injury or death was imminent. Third, the defendant must prove that the degree of force used in self-defense was objectively reasonable under the circumstances. Fourth, the defendant must prove that he or she had an objectively reasonable fear that he or she was going to be injured or killed unless he or she used self-defense. The Model Penal Code defines self-defense in § 3.04(1) as “justifiable when the actor believes that such force is immediately necessary for the purpose of protecting himself against the use of unlawful force by such other person on the present occasion.”

Provocation​

In general, if the defendant initiates an attack against another, the defendant cannot claim self-defense (State v. Williams, 2010). This rule has two exceptions. The defendant can be the initial aggressor and still raise a self-defense claim if the attacked individual responds with excessive force under the circumstances, or if the defendant withdraws from the attack and the attacked individual persists.

Excessive Force Exception​

In some jurisdictions, an individual cannot respond to the defendant’s attack using excessive force under the circumstances (State v. Belgard, 2010). For example, an individual cannot use deadly force when the defendant initiates an attack using nondeadly force"

Entire article here: 5.2 Self-Defense | Criminal Law

You’re trying to claim a minor doesn’t have the right to use deadly force to defend themselves?

 

[Indeependent]

Perhaps they see anyone exercising their right to bear arms as a threat to them because the weapons they are carrying makes it harder for them to kill this person if they choose to do so.

Hmmm....

The definition of fascism is that the "Leaders" determine right from wrong.
When there is no one selected by the "Leaders" to keep the peace no one is allowed to become the law without the permission of the "Leaders".
Today's LibBots are fascists and they're so stupid they don't even realize it.

 

[ColonelAngus]

It is a shame that Kyle didn't just hit the 3rd asshole's bicep.

 

[Turtlesoup]

Well I see the trailer trash has come out.

How about I start a fight with you and when you attempt to defend yourself from me (swing a beer bottled at my head, lunge at me with a knife, pull out a firearm, etc.) after having gotten you to take the bait, I respond by pulling out a weapon you didn't know I had and shoot you? You cool with that? After all I'd just be defending myself from someone who "out of nowhere attacked me" because you 'thought' I was a threat to you, when in fact I was not. At least I wasn't until you forced me to shoot you.

See how that works?

What are you babbling about? Kyle didn't start a fight with anyone fool..everyone knew Kyle had the gun--he wasn't concealing it. The felons attacked him, and he shot them for attacking him. The first one said that he was going to kill him, the second one hit him in the head with skateboard and the third tried to shoot him.

I don't drink and I am pretty sure that my abode if far better than you have ever lived in.