A Minor Mystery Of WWII

[PoliticalChic]

Hitler didn't.

Hess did.

End of story.

One can always count on you for specious what-passes-for-thinking.

I suppose you imagine that anyone could simply hop in a 110 and leave Nazi Germany at their will.

So much for your brilliant insights.





Once again we see the lack of learning in a Democrat voter.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Still on the question of Hitler's vis-a-vis England......this from Greg Iles novel, "Spandau Phoenix:"


“Of all Europe, only England still held out against him. The Americans were still a year from entering the war. German U-boats ruled the seas. If Hitler had pressed home the attack against England with all his forces, the British wouldn’t have stood a chance. The Americans would have been denied their staging post for a European invasion, and Hitler could have turned his full might against Russia with his flanks protected.” Natterman held up a long, crooked finger. “But he didn’t invade England. And no one knows why.”


“In 1940 Hitler let the British Army escape at Dunkirk. Why? All through the fall of 1940 and the spring of ‘41 he delayed invading Britain. Why? Operation Sea-Lion—the planned invasion of Britain—was a
joke. Hitler’s best generals have admitted this. Churchill publicly taunted Hitler, yet still he delayed. Why?"



And, of course, the hint is about blood.

 

[Grau]

The question on the floor was why Hitler thought he could persuade the Brits to accept a treaty with him?


So far, none of the back-benchers have offered an appraisal.


Say 'please' and I might help.

Anytime the European theater of WW 2 becomes the topic of discussion I am reminded of George Orwell's observation :

"Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past."
I am shocked at the number of people who believe that only the "other side" used atrocity propaganda to manipulate and deceive people who are unwilling to think for themselves or apply common sense.

The thing about propaganda is that the propaganda of the vanquished dies at the war's end while the propaganda of the victors is rarely retracted and lives on as something "everybody knows" (aka Groupthink)

Re: The question on the floor was why Hitler thought he could persuade the Brits to accept a treaty with him?

Most students of history know the degree to which the English and German royal families intermarried.
England's King George 1, for example, was born in Hanover (Germany) & spoke mainly German.
Briefly put, there was a strong pro German sentiment in England before and even during the war.

Since the feelings were mutual, Hitler ordered his generals to spare the British at Dunkirk.
He said:

"The blood of every single Englishman is too valuable to shed," Hitler said. "Our two people belong together racially and traditionally. That is and always has been my aim, even if our generals can't grasp it." (Kilzer, p.213) (1)

Since news of Communist atrocities concerned many Europeans in the 1920s and 1930s and some historians consider the Spanish Civil War to be the beginning of WW 2, fear of Communism was another factor that led Hitler and Hess to feel that England would be more receptive to this one of many of Hitler's Peace Proposals:


"What the World Rejected: Hitler’s Peace Offers 1933–1940"

Amazon.com

EXCERPT " Written by Germany’s foremost diplomatic historian of the early twentieth century, this work maps out all the numerous times that Adolf Hitler made unconditional offers of peace to all the nations of Europe—and how the major anti-German belligerents, France and Britain, turned down these offers each and every time.

This edition benefits from four new sections which did not appear in the original publication. These are:

- The full text of Hitler’s “Appeal for Peace and Sanity” speech, made before the Reichstag on July 19, 1940, following the fall of France. In that speech, Hitler once again offered unconditional peace to Britain.

This speech was printed in English and dropped by the tens of thousands from German aircraft over Britain. Although nearly half the British cabinet wanted to take up his offer, Churchill’s warmongering put an end to this final offer of peace;"CONTINUED


Finally, it was the British "Cliveden set" that invited Hess to present Hitler's peace proposal to a bellicose and pro war Churchill who was more interested in seizing Germany's colonies and industries than confronting Stalin who somehow marched into the other half of Poland without a whimper of outrage from the Allies.


Thanks,






(1)"Hitler didn't want world war"
http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/hitlernowar.html

EXCERPT "Hitler didn't want a world war, and had no stomach for fighting England, according to Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Louis Kilzer, author of "Churchill's Deception" (Simon & Schuster, 1994).

Rudolph Hess, the Deputy Leader of Nazi Germany, was in contact with the Cliveden group and flew to England May 10, 1941 to negotiate peace. According to Kilzer, Hess had Hitler's complete blessings. CONTINUED

 

[JoeB131]

Yes, but I wanted it acknowledged that it was considered.
It was rejected as you suggest but that doesn't say that it wasn't America's goal!
And then America demonstrated it's goal for the following 80 years.

Not sure why you hate America... The point was, there was a time we had a nuclear monopoly and we didn't use it. Quite the contrary, our first goal was to see if we could find peaceful uses for "atomic" power. IF the Nazis or Soviets came up with the Bomb first, I don't think they'd have been as magnaminous

Trump blew the whistle on America Joe, when he declared that America is to blame for starting the war. Do you have an explanation for why he said that?

Trump did nothing of the sort, and his sucking Putin's cock is hardly admirable. God help us all if he gets back into office.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Anytime the European theater of WW 2 becomes the topic of discussion I am reminded of George Orwell's observation :

"Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past."
I am shocked at the number of people who believe that only the "other side" used atrocity propaganda to manipulate and deceive people who are unwilling to think for themselves or apply common sense.

The thing about propaganda is that the propaganda of the vanquished dies at the war's end while the propaganda of the victors is rarely retracted and lives on as something "everybody knows" (aka Groupthink)




Most students of history know the degree to which the English and German royal families intermarried.
England's King George 1, for example, was born in Hanover (Germany) & spoke mainly German.
Briefly put, there was a strong pro German sentiment in England before and even during the war.

Since the feelings were mutual, Hitler ordered his generals to spare the British at Dunkirk.
He said:

"The blood of every single Englishman is too valuable to shed," Hitler said. "Our two people belong together racially and traditionally. That is and always has been my aim, even if our generals can't grasp it." (Kilzer, p.213) (1)

Since news of Communist atrocities concerned many Europeans in the 1920s and 1930s and some historians consider the Spanish Civil War to be the beginning of WW 2, fear of Communism was another factor that led Hitler and Hess to feel that England would be more receptive to this one of many of Hitler's Peace Proposals:


"What the World Rejected: Hitler’s Peace Offers 1933–1940"

Amazon.com

EXCERPT " Written by Germany’s foremost diplomatic historian of the early twentieth century, this work maps out all the numerous times that Adolf Hitler made unconditional offers of peace to all the nations of Europe—and how the major anti-German belligerents, France and Britain, turned down these offers each and every time.

This edition benefits from four new sections which did not appear in the original publication. These are:

- The full text of Hitler’s “Appeal for Peace and Sanity” speech, made before the Reichstag on July 19, 1940, following the fall of France. In that speech, Hitler once again offered unconditional peace to Britain.

This speech was printed in English and dropped by the tens of thousands from German aircraft over Britain. Although nearly half the British cabinet wanted to take up his offer, Churchill’s warmongering put an end to this final offer of peace;"CONTINUED


Finally, it was the British "Cliveden set" that invited Hess to present Hitler's peace proposal to a bellicose and pro war Churchill who was more interested in seizing Germany's colonies and industries than confronting Stalin who somehow marched into the other half of Poland without a whimper of outrage from the Allies.


Thanks,






(1)"Hitler didn't want world war"
http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/hitlernowar.html

EXCERPT "Hitler didn't want a world war, and had no stomach for fighting England, according to Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Louis Kilzer, author of "Churchill's Deception" (Simon & Schuster, 1994).

Rudolph Hess, the Deputy Leader of Nazi Germany, was in contact with the Cliveden group and flew to England May 10, 1941 to negotiate peace. According to Kilzer, Hess had Hitler's complete blessings. CONTINUED

I really appreciate this well thought out post.


You have taken a certain amount of my thunder, but I hope you will allow me to elucidate in my way.....in the next few posts.

 

[JoeB131]

Still on the question of Hitler's vis-a-vis England......this from Greg Iles novel, "Spandau Phoenix:"


“Of all Europe, only England still held out against him. The Americans were still a year from entering the war. German U-boats ruled the seas. If Hitler had pressed home the attack against England with all his forces, the British wouldn’t have stood a chance. The Americans would have been denied their staging post for a European invasion, and Hitler could have turned his full might against Russia with his flanks protected.” Natterman held up a long, crooked finger. “But he didn’t invade England. And no one knows why.”

Um, everyone knows why he didn't invade England. He didn't have the naval resources to do so. He had a handful of capital ships for the UK's navy, which was still the largest in the world at that time.

His other schemes to take the UK out of the war was to starve it with U-boats (didn't work), Get Spain to join the war and take Gibraltar (Spain wasn't going for it), or try to take Suez in North Africa (Monty beat Rommel)

Then he foolishly calculated he could defeat the USSR quickly, and negotiate world peace on his own terms. Hitler was always happy to leave Asia to Japan, the Americas to the US, and the Middle East and Africa to the British, as long as he got to dominate Europe.

 

[JoeB131]

One can always count on you for specious what-passes-for-thinking.

I suppose you imagine that anyone could simply hop in a 110 and leave Nazi Germany at their will.

View attachment 997208



So much for your brilliant insights.

Once again we see the lack of learning in a Democrat voter.

Except Hess wasn't "anybody", he was the Deputy Fuhrer. No one was going to stop him if he demanded a plane.

 

[PoliticalChic]

"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

Interesting whose quote that is.


This thread is not centered on Hess's flight to Scotland.
That would be an event.
The focus is the idea that was the fundemental idea of Nazism.

Blood.

Used in this way:

"This attitude dovetails with what is known about FDR's views regarding immigrants in general and Asian immigrants in particular.... He recommended that future immigration should be limited to those who had "blood of the right sort." "

 

[AMart]

The question at hand was why Hitler would believe that he could persuade the Brits to join him in a treaty.

I have tried to advance this Socratic Dialogue, but, alas, the earlier participants don't have the requisite background in learning to participate....

....so I need to give this hint.


.…as Martin Amis put it, 'Bolshevism was exportable and produced near-identical results elsewhere. Nazism could not be duplicated. Compared to it, the other fascist states were simply amateurish' (Amis, 2002, p. 91).

This makes communism more dangerous than Nazism.

Nazism was based on blood and nationalism, so, could not be duplicated in nations like America, which is made up of so very many nations.




Now......can you surmise why Hitler imagined the Brits might be susceptible to his gambit?????

Bolshevism is based on blood also, they just lie about it. They get useful idiots to die for the their cause then they take over. It's a part of Jewish philosophy where some of them think they should rule the world and that non Jews are subhuman.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Now, why did Hitler hesitate about attacking England?

Of course he didn't want a two-front war when he attacked Russia......but he was a true believer of the importance of the right sort of blood, and saw that in England.

• Germany, considered mostly as their bete noire, was an important element in England’s and America’s history. In fact, prior to the waves of Hispanics brought and allowed into America, it was those of German origin who were most numerous in our country.
• On another count, the English language itself is a derivative of Teutonic, German, far more so than from any Romance Language.
• Once considered as the most advanced educational nation in the world, the seat of learning, many of our early President had tutors of German origin.
• “. “In 1714, George Louis, elector of Hanover, became the first past 300 years, strong ties have continued to be forged between the English throne and German noble families.” Dw.com

The madman, Hitler, imagined a certain sympatico between Germany and England, and hoped to be able to peruade the English to join him, or at least not impede his fight against Bolshevism and against Jews......
......and there was a strong element in England that hated both communism and Jews.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Bolshevism is based on blood also, they just lie about it. They get useful idiots to die for the their cause then they take over. It's a part of Jewish philosophy where some of them think they should rule the world and that non Jews are subhuman.

If it was, there couldn't be as many countries todaty that have become socialist/communist.

 

[PoliticalChic]

"All right, then. Yes, there was a group of Nazi appeasers-very highly

placed-who wanted to make a deal with Hitler. That's been proved. Or

at least it's being proved, by an Oxford academic. The question is, was

that group sincere? Do you follow me, Stern? Were the members of this

group English fascists who loved the swastika? Or simply war profiteers

out for all the gold they could get? Were they paranoid anticommunists

who wanted peace at any price so that Hitler would be free to crush

Russia? Or d here's the rub-were they patriotic Englishmen leading

Hitler by the nose until it was too late for him to invade England?"
Greg Iles, "Spandau Phoenix"

 

[Donald H]

Not sure why you hate America... The point was, there was a time we had a nuclear monopoly and we didn't use it.

I hate America's foreign policy of aggression, not particularly Americans. And I don't consider it rational to hate real estate. IMO the only reason why America wouldn't use nuclear weapons is because it would effect Americans negatively. And then the possibility slipped away.

Quite the contrary, our first goal was to see if we could find peaceful uses for "atomic" power. IF the Nazis or Soviets came up with the Bomb first, I don't think they'd have been as magnaminous

Americans are taught to hate Russians, Chinese, Iranians, and many others.

Trump did nothing of the sort, and his sucking Putin's cock is hardly admirable. God help us all if he gets back into office.

We will get nowhere if you deny facts that can be proven.

 

[JoeB131]

"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

Interesting whose quote that is.


This thread is not centered on Hess's flight to Scotland.
That would be an event.
The focus is the idea that was the fundemental idea of Nazism.

Blood.

Used in this way:

"This attitude dovetails with what is known about FDR's views regarding immigrants in general and Asian immigrants in particular.... He recommended that future immigration should be limited to those who had "blood of the right sort." "

So he was a product of his time? Look, man, I know you hate that FDR saved America from plutocracy and fascism, but you need to get over it.

There's really no reason why Hess went to England. He was delusional.

 

[AMart]

If it was, there couldn't be as many countries todaty that have become socialist/communist.

Anyone can co-opt the ideology to gain power. I guarantee you Mao had Jewish help, as did the ANC, and Castro. Maybe Chavez also. All of S. America has flirted with Communism or went that way and do you have any idea how many Jews went there in the 1500's? They ran the Atlantic Slave trade. They dominated the Sugar trade. Economic communism is mostly just a grift. Marx never believed in it. It's just a way to gain power. During Waterloo one Rothchild ran England and another ran France. Either way a Jewish Central Banker wins.

 

[PoliticalChic]

So he was a product of his time? Look, man, I know you hate that FDR saved America from plutocracy and fascism, but you need to get over it.

There's really no reason why Hess went to England. He was delusional.

FDR associated America with Bolshevik Russia.

He submitted to nearly every demand Stalin made up to and including putting a communist on as his VP, and subscribing to Stalin's legacy, the United Nationw.


I accurately quoted FDR's views on non-wasps.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Anyone can co-opt the ideology to gain power. I guarantee you Mao had Jewish help, as did the ANC, and Castro. Maybe Chavez also. All of S. America has flirted with Communism or went that way and do you have any idea how many Jews went there in the 1500's? They ran the Atlantic Slave trade. They dominated the Sugar trade. Economic communism is mostly just a grift. Marx never believed in it. It's just a way to gain power. During Waterloo one Rothchild ran England and another ran France. Either way a Jewish Central Banker wins.

I'm gonna pass on your guarantees.

 

[westwall]

Thank you.

Yes, Hitler did say that about his favorite.

But did Hess suddenly go crazy?

Why?

No, he was always crazy.

 

[JoeB131]

I hate America's foreign policy of aggression, not particularly Americans. And I don't consider it rational to hate real estate. IMO the only reason why America wouldn't use nuclear weapons is because it would effect Americans negatively. And then the possibility slipped away.

Hardly. A short nuclear war in 1947 would have devastated the USSR, but the fallout wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the US. (Not that they knew as much about fallout then as we do now. QUite the contrary, what the US did after the War was tried to mind our own business. We downscaled our military and had to rush to rebuild it quickly for Korea.

Americans are taught to hate Russians, Chinese, Iranians, and many others.

We are? That would be a shock to my Chinese wife.

I don't have a problem with any of these folks. Their governments are another matter.

We will get nowhere if you deny facts that can be proven.

Guy, I realize you wingnuts have all become a Hippy Drum circle because Trump appeased Putin and the Taliban, and Kim. But none of this is good.

 

[westwall]

Now, why did Hitler hesitate about attacking England?

Of course he didn't want a two-front war when he attacked Russia......but he was a true believer of the importance of the right sort of blood, and saw that in England.

• Germany, considered mostly as their bete noire, was an important element in England’s and America’s history. In fact, prior to the waves of Hispanics brought and allowed into America, it was those of German origin who were most numerous in our country.
• On another count, the English language itself is a derivative of Teutonic, German, far more so than from any Romance Language.
• Once considered as the most advanced educational nation in the world, the seat of learning, many of our early President had tutors of German origin.
• “. “In 1714, George Louis, elector of Hanover, became the first past 300 years, strong ties have continued to be forged between the English throne and German noble families.” Dw.com

The madman, Hitler, imagined a certain sympatico between Germany and England, and hoped to be able to peruade the English to join him, or at least not impede his fight against Bolshevism and against Jews......
......and there was a strong element in England that hated both communism and Jews.

Hitler felt he could convince the British to join in the fight against what Hitler felt was EUROPES natural enemy, the Asian horde epitomized by the USSR.