Palestinians demand return of "their" heritage -- Dead Sea Scolls

[Eloy]

I will try not to dwell on your change of the subject concerning the Dead Sea Scrolls. You are writing about Russian pogroms and no-one doubts they happened. I would agree that they represent attempts to destroy Judaism in Russia. To use the persecution of Russian Jews as establishing a right of their ownership of the Dead Sea Scrolls over that of the Palestinian people who are indigenous to Qumran is false. You also overstate the skills of Russian Jews to be able to read and interpret the scholarly ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. It is one of the insults visited upon the Palestinians to be treated like dogs by soldiers of the Israel Defense Force who can hardly understand modern Hebrew as they give orders with thick Russian accents.

The vast majority of Israelis are only a very few generations away from Polish, Ukrainian, Belorussian, etc.. European origin.

I refuse to get into a characterization of people by bogus racist doctrine such as your reference to Cohen-Levi. Unlike Zionists, I reject racism. Like the Nazi's pursuit of racial Aryan purity, it is a dead end, one that can generate torment of completely innocent people such as the children and families of Gaza.

It was You who brought up the 'ethnic purity' (and still do above) not me. Claiming 'Aryan looking Jews'. That was the level You brought to the conversation.
All I do is show that the Jews have everything covered there also.

Nothing original or remotely related to the subject of history and heritage of archaeological artifacts. Your opinions here are irrelevant.

The mere presence of the Hebrew scrolls means the area was Jewish.
Written in Hebrew, talking about Jews and found in Judea.

Do You have better place for Jewish scrolls rather than Judea Jerusalem?

Your whole argument is racist. You are at ease defending a sectarian state. The very concept of Zionism is on the wrong side of history and has within it the source of its own destruction, just as Nazism was destroyed, and racist South Africa. I see nothing but sorrow for a country that was supposed to be a safe home for Jews who have been making the Palestinians pay the price for such an evil doctrine. Next to the unbelievable sectarian racism of Israel, where the Dead Sea Scrolls reside is of little importance.

Nothing racist about discussing language, heritage and history.
Talking about physical appearance and blood as a characterization of Jews was YOUR contribution. You cannot blame me now for trying to speak on Your level, in You terms and language.

I guess You have nothing on the subject except for the old fashioned slogans, and that's why You throw at me ad hominem that has nothing in relation to the SCROLLS.

Naturally, I regret that my analysis and statement of the unpalatable truth about the Zionists has not persuaded you. I am not surprised. I fault you only on your commitment to Zionism, not you personally. It would take a better man than me to undo what you have been conditioned to believe. Forgive me for trying.

So You admit that the sole purpose of Your 'argument' here was to persuade me against Jews having their presence in Israel..
I'm not surprised You barely touched the subject at hand- THE SCROLLS.

You see, Roman would wipe out peoples who rebelled twice. Judea rebelled 3 times and we are still Jewish!.
How funny is the fact that You were even thinking that You had any chance...ON SUCH A SUBJECT.

You see there's nothing new You can throw at 4000 yrs of heritage and knowledge.

Yes I did try to persuade you through the cogency of my argument, in the beginning to accept that all humanity own the Dead Sea Scrolls and that their residence could be anywhere where they could be studied. I mentioned the Vatican on the grounds that Christianity developed from Judaism.

Of course I could see that you were claiming that modern Jews have the greatest claim because they are the writing of a Jewish sect (now extinct) and you further claimed all along that the European Jews, including those who seem very Aryan, were the same people who had lived in Palestine thousands of years ago. You believe that these European Jews are Semites with a claim on the territory of Palestine. I attempted to show you that your argument is almost bizarre and certainly racist and sectarian. I ended by stating that I see things differently from you. I accept that. There can be no meeting of our minds on the fundamental nature of Zionism and, by comparison, the minor matter of the best location for the Dead Sea Scrolls.

 

[Eloy]

Are You lazy on google today?
Search for the borders of Judea tribe in the Torah, match with the maps- done.

I've already given You enough crushing evidences.
No need to address all this speculation and deflection.
I'm not going to change the course and the subject every time You avoid straight questions.

I have thousands of years of residence, heritage and learning from such scriptures.
You have speculation relying on recent modern political games.

You may very well be an expert on Dead Sea Scrolls exegesis and all about them in which case you will know that they were discovered in the West Bank where, in justice, they belong. I granted that they are not so safe there, given the brutal occupation by the Israelis.

Well, Eloy, since you appear obsessed with these scrolls and nothing else going on in the Middle East, why not ask these folks who they would rather see safeguard them?

The Last Days of Christ - First Presbyterian Church

BTW, when these scrolls were written, there were no sign of Arabs in the Holy Land.

Doc's Talk: A TOUR OF PALESTINE; THE YEAR IS 1695

In fact, Eloy, icons from the 2nd to the 4th AD were touring the U.S. St. Catherine's Church in the Sinai was kind enough to send these icons over. From the icons, you can discern that Christians in Egypt were very religious. However, you will not see one Arab in any of the icons since they were still on the Arabian Peninsula.

You are confusing Arab with Arabian. It is like confusing Hispanic with Spaniard.

Has the squawking parrot been on his perch all day? Meanwhile, if you get a chance and the icons are still touring, you will hear viewers make the remark that there are no Arabs depicted in the icons. Those Arabs came later.

History of Jihad against the Egyptian Coptic Christians (640)

You really are too stupid to participate in this conversation. Go away.

Please, that is an unkind remark, montelatici.

 

[montelatici]

Rylah is a good guy. He is reasonable but he is naturally conditioned. The Anglos that conquered Texas and fought at the Alamo thought like Rylah. They were conditioned to believe that they had the right to replace the Mexicans that lived in Texas and take over. Maybe Israel will be successful and 100 years from now they will have eliminated the non-Jew's resistance and will control the area without resistance and when they look at the history they will say, heck we were really wrong, but now everything is better. Somehow I think the demographics are not so positive, but who knows.

If by "naturally conditioned" You mean Jewish education then maybe.
Why would a Jew advocate for the oldest Torah scrolls be held by anyone else than the Jewish homeland?

Your moral judgment of me is even funnier since much of Your values and morals were given You by MY PEOPLE. By the very same scrolls. And You still don't see the circles You run around.

I understand you. You are obviously proud of your heritage. But our heritage and morals were given to us by the fellow who told us that an eye for eye was wrong and that we should turn the other cheek.

 

[rylah]

It was You who brought up the 'ethnic purity' (and still do above) not me. Claiming 'Aryan looking Jews'. That was the level You brought to the conversation.
All I do is show that the Jews have everything covered there also.

Nothing original or remotely related to the subject of history and heritage of archaeological artifacts. Your opinions here are irrelevant.

The mere presence of the Hebrew scrolls means the area was Jewish.
Written in Hebrew, talking about Jews and found in Judea.

Do You have better place for Jewish scrolls rather than Judea Jerusalem?

Your whole argument is racist. You are at ease defending a sectarian state. The very concept of Zionism is on the wrong side of history and has within it the source of its own destruction, just as Nazism was destroyed, and racist South Africa. I see nothing but sorrow for a country that was supposed to be a safe home for Jews who have been making the Palestinians pay the price for such an evil doctrine. Next to the unbelievable sectarian racism of Israel, where the Dead Sea Scrolls reside is of little importance.

Nothing racist about discussing language, heritage and history.
Talking about physical appearance and blood as a characterization of Jews was YOUR contribution. You cannot blame me now for trying to speak on Your level, in You terms and language.

I guess You have nothing on the subject except for the old fashioned slogans, and that's why You throw at me ad hominem that has nothing in relation to the SCROLLS.

Naturally, I regret that my analysis and statement of the unpalatable truth about the Zionists has not persuaded you. I am not surprised. I fault you only on your commitment to Zionism, not you personally. It would take a better man than me to undo what you have been conditioned to believe. Forgive me for trying.

So You admit that the sole purpose of Your 'argument' here was to persuade me against Jews having their presence in Israel..
I'm not surprised You barely touched the subject at hand- THE SCROLLS.

You see, Roman would wipe out peoples who rebelled twice. Judea rebelled 3 times and we are still Jewish!.
How funny is the fact that You were even thinking that You had any chance...ON SUCH A SUBJECT.

You see there's nothing new You can throw at 4000 yrs of heritage and knowledge.

Yes I did try to persuade you through the cogency of my argument, in the beginning to accept that all humanity own the Dead Sea Scrolls and that their residence could be anywhere where they could be studied. I mentioned the Vatican on the grounds that Christianity developed from Judaism.

Of course I could see that you were claiming that modern Jews have the greatest claim because they are the writing of a Jewish sect (now extinct) and you further claimed all along that the European Jews, including those who seem very Aryan, were the same people who had lived in Palestine thousands of years ago. You believe that these European Jews are Semites which a claim on the territory of Palestine. I attempted to show you that your argument is almost bizarre and certainly racist and sectarian. I ended by stating that I see things differently from you. I accept that. There can be no meeting of our minds on the fundamental nature of Zionism and, by comparison, the minor matter of the best location for the Dead Sea Scrolls.

You try to disagree so hard that You have to change what I presented.
The scrolls are historical cultural artifact, and I'm arguing on the basis of heritage and culture.
Then You go and try to inject the OP with other subjects, that you're more familiar with but have no connection to my point.
You see You have very little understanding of Judaism and the Bible- the core issue here. So You re frame it endlessly so You feel more convenient.

So if You want a discussion, first make a clear distinction between what I actually stated and what You think You heard because of Your cultural biases.

 

[Eloy]

Rylah is a good guy. He is reasonable but he is naturally conditioned. The Anglos that conquered Texas and fought at the Alamo thought like Rylah. They were conditioned to believe that they had the right to replace the Mexicans that lived in Texas and take over. Maybe Israel will be successful and 100 years from now they will have eliminated the non-Jew's resistance and will control the area without resistance and when they look at the history they will say, heck we were really wrong, but now everything is better. Somehow I think the demographics are not so positive, but who knows.

You are forgetting what happened in the 20th century. The world is a different place than it was when President Polk made a huge land grab of Mexican territory in the 19th century when it was not illegal to acquire land through war not to move the population of the victors into the land of the vanquished. There will not be peace in an apartheid Israel, not today and not in a hundred years.

If You'd read the scrolls You'd understand that were're not expecting too much calm anyway. Just read the scrolls so You can call Yourself an overall educated person. Knowing the Bible is not a shame, it's a great insight into current geopolitical and cultural conflict.

I do not think trying to study fragments of old scrolls will help change my mind. They seem to be of value only to Biblical scholars and beliefs of the sect who produced them. We are never educated enough.

 

[Eloy]

Your whole argument is racist. You are at ease defending a sectarian state. The very concept of Zionism is on the wrong side of history and has within it the source of its own destruction, just as Nazism was destroyed, and racist South Africa. I see nothing but sorrow for a country that was supposed to be a safe home for Jews who have been making the Palestinians pay the price for such an evil doctrine. Next to the unbelievable sectarian racism of Israel, where the Dead Sea Scrolls reside is of little importance.

Nothing racist about discussing language, heritage and history.
Talking about physical appearance and blood as a characterization of Jews was YOUR contribution. You cannot blame me now for trying to speak on Your level, in You terms and language.

I guess You have nothing on the subject except for the old fashioned slogans, and that's why You throw at me ad hominem that has nothing in relation to the SCROLLS.

Naturally, I regret that my analysis and statement of the unpalatable truth about the Zionists has not persuaded you. I am not surprised. I fault you only on your commitment to Zionism, not you personally. It would take a better man than me to undo what you have been conditioned to believe. Forgive me for trying.

So You admit that the sole purpose of Your 'argument' here was to persuade me against Jews having their presence in Israel..
I'm not surprised You barely touched the subject at hand- THE SCROLLS.

You see, Roman would wipe out peoples who rebelled twice. Judea rebelled 3 times and we are still Jewish!.
How funny is the fact that You were even thinking that You had any chance...ON SUCH A SUBJECT.

You see there's nothing new You can throw at 4000 yrs of heritage and knowledge.

Yes I did try to persuade you through the cogency of my argument, in the beginning to accept that all humanity own the Dead Sea Scrolls and that their residence could be anywhere where they could be studied. I mentioned the Vatican on the grounds that Christianity developed from Judaism.

Of course I could see that you were claiming that modern Jews have the greatest claim because they are the writing of a Jewish sect (now extinct) and you further claimed all along that the European Jews, including those who seem very Aryan, were the same people who had lived in Palestine thousands of years ago. You believe that these European Jews are Semites which a claim on the territory of Palestine. I attempted to show you that your argument is almost bizarre and certainly racist and sectarian. I ended by stating that I see things differently from you. I accept that. There can be no meeting of our minds on the fundamental nature of Zionism and, by comparison, the minor matter of the best location for the Dead Sea Scrolls.

You try to disagree so hard that You have to change what I presented.
The scrolls are historical cultural artifact, and I'm arguing on the basis of heritage and culture.
Then You go and try to inject the OP with other subjects, that you're more familiar with but have no connection to my point.
You see You have very little understanding of Judaism and the Bible- the core issue here. So You re frame it endlessly so You feel more convenient.

So if You want a discussion, first make a clear distinction between what I actually stated and what You think You heard because of Your cultural biases.

Your criticism is unfair.

 

[rylah]

Rylah is a good guy. He is reasonable but he is naturally conditioned. The Anglos that conquered Texas and fought at the Alamo thought like Rylah. They were conditioned to believe that they had the right to replace the Mexicans that lived in Texas and take over. Maybe Israel will be successful and 100 years from now they will have eliminated the non-Jew's resistance and will control the area without resistance and when they look at the history they will say, heck we were really wrong, but now everything is better. Somehow I think the demographics are not so positive, but who knows.

If by "naturally conditioned" You mean Jewish education then maybe.
Why would a Jew advocate for the oldest Torah scrolls be held by anyone else than the Jewish homeland?

Your moral judgment of me is even funnier since much of Your values and morals were given You by MY PEOPLE. By the very same scrolls. And You still don't see the circles You run around.

I understand you. You are obviously proud of your heritage. But our heritage and morals were given to us by the fellow who told us that an eye for eye was wrong and that we should turn the other cheek.

And how did that work for the numbers of Christian population in the ME recently?
Maybe it's because You received a message through the Roman empire that persecuted Christians for centuries. Only to decide later that they had the last word on everything Christian.

An now You claim You have a say, because there's nothing wrong with Romans Catholics dictating Jews and Jewish Christians once again what to do with their heritage?

Thats Chutzpah in its' essence.

 

[Hossfly]

Are You lazy on google today?
Search for the borders of Judea tribe in the Torah, match with the maps- done.

I've already given You enough crushing evidences.
No need to address all this speculation and deflection.
I'm not going to change the course and the subject every time You avoid straight questions.

I have thousands of years of residence, heritage and learning from such scriptures.
You have speculation relying on recent modern political games.

You may very well be an expert on Dead Sea Scrolls exegesis and all about them in which case you will know that they were discovered in the West Bank where, in justice, they belong. I granted that they are not so safe there, given the brutal occupation by the Israelis.

Well, Eloy, since you appear obsessed with these scrolls and nothing else going on in the Middle East, why not ask these folks who they would rather see safeguard them?

The Last Days of Christ - First Presbyterian Church

BTW, when these scrolls were written, there were no sign of Arabs in the Holy Land.

Doc's Talk: A TOUR OF PALESTINE; THE YEAR IS 1695

In fact, Eloy, icons from the 2nd to the 4th AD were touring the U.S. St. Catherine's Church in the Sinai was kind enough to send these icons over. From the icons, you can discern that Christians in Egypt were very religious. However, you will not see one Arab in any of the icons since they were still on the Arabian Peninsula.

You are confusing Arab with Arabian. It is like confusing Hispanic with Spaniard.

Has the squawking parrot been on his perch all day? Meanwhile, if you get a chance and the icons are still touring, you will hear viewers make the remark that there are no Arabs depicted in the icons. Those Arabs came later.

History of Jihad against the Egyptian Coptic Christians (640)

You really are too stupid to participate in this conversation. Go away.

I think the squawking parrot gets off on calling people idiots, morons, stupid, etc. The thing is that by now many of the readers are aware that the reason the squawking parrot spams so much is because he thinks that each day will bring him new readers that will read his demonization of Israel. After all, are the regular readers going to read this same spam over and over?

I guess I will have to throw Polly here a few crackers so he can sit quietly and think up a few more names to people why disagree with him.

 

[rylah]

Rylah is a good guy. He is reasonable but he is naturally conditioned. The Anglos that conquered Texas and fought at the Alamo thought like Rylah. They were conditioned to believe that they had the right to replace the Mexicans that lived in Texas and take over. Maybe Israel will be successful and 100 years from now they will have eliminated the non-Jew's resistance and will control the area without resistance and when they look at the history they will say, heck we were really wrong, but now everything is better. Somehow I think the demographics are not so positive, but who knows.

You are forgetting what happened in the 20th century. The world is a different place than it was when President Polk made a huge land grab of Mexican territory in the 19th century when it was not illegal to acquire land through war not to move the population of the victors into the land of the vanquished. There will not be peace in an apartheid Israel, not today and not in a hundred years.

If You'd read the scrolls You'd understand that were're not expecting too much calm anyway. Just read the scrolls so You can call Yourself an overall educated person. Knowing the Bible is not a shame, it's a great insight into current geopolitical and cultural conflict.

I do not think trying to study fragments of old scrolls will help change my mind. They seem to be of value only to Biblical scholars and beliefs of the sect who produced them. We are never educated enough.

Did I just read a justification for not reading a text that's at the core of our argument?
Then what do You have to add to the subject?

Ignorance is bliss.

 

[Eloy]

Rylah is a good guy. He is reasonable but he is naturally conditioned. The Anglos that conquered Texas and fought at the Alamo thought like Rylah. They were conditioned to believe that they had the right to replace the Mexicans that lived in Texas and take over. Maybe Israel will be successful and 100 years from now they will have eliminated the non-Jew's resistance and will control the area without resistance and when they look at the history they will say, heck we were really wrong, but now everything is better. Somehow I think the demographics are not so positive, but who knows.

You are forgetting what happened in the 20th century. The world is a different place than it was when President Polk made a huge land grab of Mexican territory in the 19th century when it was not illegal to acquire land through war not to move the population of the victors into the land of the vanquished. There will not be peace in an apartheid Israel, not today and not in a hundred years.

If You'd read the scrolls You'd understand that were're not expecting too much calm anyway. Just read the scrolls so You can call Yourself an overall educated person. Knowing the Bible is not a shame, it's a great insight into current geopolitical and cultural conflict.

I do not think trying to study fragments of old scrolls will help change my mind. They seem to be of value only to Biblical scholars and beliefs of the sect who produced them. We are never educated enough.

Did I just read a justification for not reading a text that's at the core of our argument?
Then what do You have to add to the subject?

Ignorance is bliss.

No, the argument was about where the scrolls belong. No-one disputed their origin from a sect of Jews.
I have not once insulted you but you assume the right to insult me more than once. That is no way to win an argument.
I have nothing more to add.

 

[rylah]

Rylah is a good guy. He is reasonable but he is naturally conditioned. The Anglos that conquered Texas and fought at the Alamo thought like Rylah. They were conditioned to believe that they had the right to replace the Mexicans that lived in Texas and take over. Maybe Israel will be successful and 100 years from now they will have eliminated the non-Jew's resistance and will control the area without resistance and when they look at the history they will say, heck we were really wrong, but now everything is better. Somehow I think the demographics are not so positive, but who knows.

You are forgetting what happened in the 20th century. The world is a different place than it was when President Polk made a huge land grab of Mexican territory in the 19th century when it was not illegal to acquire land through war not to move the population of the victors into the land of the vanquished. There will not be peace in an apartheid Israel, not today and not in a hundred years.

If You'd read the scrolls You'd understand that were're not expecting too much calm anyway. Just read the scrolls so You can call Yourself an overall educated person. Knowing the Bible is not a shame, it's a great insight into current geopolitical and cultural conflict.

I do not think trying to study fragments of old scrolls will help change my mind. They seem to be of value only to Biblical scholars and beliefs of the sect who produced them. We are never educated enough.

Did I just read a justification for not reading a text that's at the core of our argument?
Then what do You have to add to the subject?

Ignorance is bliss.

No, the argument was about where the scrolls belong. No-one disputed their origin from a sect of Jews.
I have not once insulted you but you assume the right to insult me more than once. That is no way to win an argument.
I have nothing more to add.

I haven't used any foul word towards but You jumped into discussion ABOUT TORAH SCROLLS with Your comparison of Jews to Aryans.Undermining Jews claiming they have no connection to the Israel or the scrolls.

You're not fooling anyone here playing the victim of insult.

And I won the argument with simple facts and common sense.
But to be fair You tried to support a very vulgar and weak argument from its' inception.

 

[Eloy]

You are forgetting what happened in the 20th century. The world is a different place than it was when President Polk made a huge land grab of Mexican territory in the 19th century when it was not illegal to acquire land through war not to move the population of the victors into the land of the vanquished. There will not be peace in an apartheid Israel, not today and not in a hundred years.

If You'd read the scrolls You'd understand that were're not expecting too much calm anyway. Just read the scrolls so You can call Yourself an overall educated person. Knowing the Bible is not a shame, it's a great insight into current geopolitical and cultural conflict.

I do not think trying to study fragments of old scrolls will help change my mind. They seem to be of value only to Biblical scholars and beliefs of the sect who produced them. We are never educated enough.

Did I just read a justification for not reading a text that's at the core of our argument?
Then what do You have to add to the subject?

Ignorance is bliss.

No, the argument was about where the scrolls belong. No-one disputed their origin from a sect of Jews.
I have not once insulted you but you assume the right to insult me more than once. That is no way to win an argument.
I have nothing more to add.

I haven't used any foul word towards but You jumped into discussion ABOUT TORAH SCROLLS with Your comparison of Jews to Aryans.Undermining Jews claiming they have no connection to the Israel or the scrolls.

You're not fooling anyone here playing the victim of insult.

And I won the argument with simple facts and common sense.
But to be fair You tried to support a very vulgar and weak argument from its' inception.

Have it your own way.

 

[Shusha]

I have never come across the notion that the Palestinians want to erase all Jewish connection with the Holy Land.

Your ignorance is astounding. Here ya go:

There is not [even] the smallest indication of the existence of a Jewish Temple on this place in the past. In the whole city, there is not even a single stone indicating Jewish history... The Jews cannot legitimately claim [the Western] wall, neither religiously nor historically. The Committee of the League of Nations recommended in 1930, to allow the Jews to pray there, in order to keep them quiet. But by no means did it acknowledge that the wall belongs to them.

That was the Mufti of Jerusalem. Want more? I got more. There is LOTS where that came from. Now, that you are enlightened, does that change your point of view at all?

 

[Eloy]

I have never come across the notion that the Palestinians want to erase all Jewish connection with the Holy Land.

Your ignorance is astounding. Here ya go:

There is not [even] the smallest indication of the existence of a Jewish Temple on this place in the past. In the whole city, there is not even a single stone indicating Jewish history... The Jews cannot legitimately claim [the Western] wall, neither religiously nor historically. The Committee of the League of Nations recommended in 1930, to allow the Jews to pray there, in order to keep them quiet. But by no means did it acknowledge that the wall belongs to them.

That was the Mufti of Jerusalem. Want more? I got more. There is LOTS where that came from. Now, that you are enlightened, does that change your point of view at all?

I have no wish nor intention of being rude but since you on a previous topic and two other people in this thread have accused me of being uneducated, ignorant, vulgar, etc., I''m afraid I am at a loss for words. In my life, I have never had a discussion, debate, or an exchange of views with strangers who adopt such an attitude and use such a disrespectful tone. Do you honestly expect a civil answer when you write of my ignorance as you did? Heavens above!

 

[Phoenall]

How can the Palestinian Muslims and Christians, many of whose ancestors previously practiced Judaism and are the native indigenous people of Palestine have less right to the documents than people whose whose ancestors are from other continents?

Because they did not exist at the time the scrolls were written, so how could they have any rights to them. This is like saying that the English ( invaders and immigrants ) owned Stonehenge because they arrived thousands of years later

 

[Phoenall]

Could You quote from the scrolls themselves, where they call the area Palestine?

I'm sorry; I do not have a copy of the Scrolls.

Of course You have, it's as far away as a click on a mouse.
Here: http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah
they even have English translation of each verse.

The 1st verse says:
Chapter 1 : Verse 1

"The vision of Isaiah son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Yehizqiyah, kings of Judah."

Translation: Professor Peter Flint (Western Trinity University, Canada) and Professor Eugene Ulrich (University of Notre Dame).

Now that You have resources available, if You find 'Al Quds' or 'Palestine' in there let me know.

Yes, Palestine was called Judea during the writing of some of the scrolls. I said as much. At the same time, I do not want to give time to studying Jewish scriptures, if you don't mind. You see, i think it is all hocus pocus.

Yes, but the Jews AND THE SCROLLS still called it Judea- for 2000 years. Even the Romans did for a hundred or so years before the revolts.

You don't have to be a detective or "study" the scriptures to see the unquestionable connection between Israel and these scrolls.
Palestinians and the original Philistines are clearly the enemies of everything these scrolls stand for.

Do You know who stole the Ark of the Covenant according to the scrolls?

No, I would fail your test on the mythical Ark of the Covenant.
Most people do not know if Judea was the only name given to the region in the scrolls dating over hundreds of years and you must understand that in discussions like this, without scholarly citations, it is asking us to take your word alone.
What is of paramount significance is that the scrolls were discovered in the modern state of Palestine and should be in the care of the Palestinians. It has to be borne in mind, however, that Palestine is under constant siege and brutal occupation by the Israelis so nothing and no-one is safe there.

And even when the evidence shows they have no rights to the lands you still push the LIES. You are the typical brainwashed stooge parroting the words you are told in an attempt at gaining support. The land was never arab muslim no matter what you call the illegal immigrants living there

 

[Shusha]

I have no wish nor intention of being rude but since you on a previous topic and two other people in this thread have accused me of being uneducated, ignorant, vulgar, etc., I''m afraid I am at a loss for words. In my life, I have never had a discussion, debate, or an exchange of views with strangers who adopt such an attitude and use such a disrespectful tone. Do you honestly expect a civil answer when you write of my ignorance as you did? Heavens above!

Well, to be fair, you announced you were no longer talking to me because I used a swear word (*gasp*), not because I accused you of being ignorant. In this instance you, yourself, admitted that you were not aware of certain aspects of the dialogue. I did not insult you for this lack of awareness (though I did express my sheer surprise!) and proceeded to inform you. So, no harm, no foul, right?

What I expect of people willing to participate on a debate forum is to address the content of the posts. I expect them to be willing to absorb new information and incorporate it into their thinking and arguments.

So now that you are no longer unaware of the deliberate Arab Muslim rejection of the Jewish connection to the holy places, does this change your point of view?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

I have never come across the notion that the Palestinians want to erase all Jewish connection with the Holy Land.

Your ignorance is astounding. Here ya go:

There is not [even] the smallest indication of the existence of a Jewish Temple on this place in the past. In the whole city, there is not even a single stone indicating Jewish history... The Jews cannot legitimately claim [the Western] wall, neither religiously nor historically. The Committee of the League of Nations recommended in 1930, to allow the Jews to pray there, in order to keep them quiet. But by no means did it acknowledge that the wall belongs to them.

That was the Mufti of Jerusalem. Want more? I got more. There is LOTS where that came from. Now, that you are enlightened, does that change your point of view at all?

I have no wish nor intention of being rude but since you on a previous topic and two other people in this thread have accused me of being uneducated, ignorant, vulgar, etc., I''m afraid I am at a loss for words. In my life, I have never had a discussion, debate, or an exchange of views with strangers who adopt such an attitude and use such a disrespectful tone. Do you honestly expect a civil answer when you write of my ignorance as you did? Heavens above!

Eloy, I actually think you're kinda funny. However, if you debate a subject, you should be somewhat knowledgeable in that subject. For instance, I have been surprised over the years at the false statements many of the posters here have made, until I realized many of them have never been to Israel and/or Palestine. Since you decided to debate these Scrolls, I thought you had some knowledge of the subject. I'm not an expert myself, but I had been to a Dead Sea Scrolls exhibition once, had some knowledge of the Essene sect, but most important of all, I have read the Hebrew Bible, which makes up the main bulk of the Scrolls. That's basically all you need--a basic knowledge of the Tanach/Hebrew Bible--not any scholarly citations. So come back with some basic knowledge, although it may be less cute on your part.

 

[Eloy]

I have no wish nor intention of being rude but since you on a previous topic and two other people in this thread have accused me of being uneducated, ignorant, vulgar, etc., I''m afraid I am at a loss for words. In my life, I have never had a discussion, debate, or an exchange of views with strangers who adopt such an attitude and use such a disrespectful tone. Do you honestly expect a civil answer when you write of my ignorance as you did? Heavens above!

Well, to be fair, you announced you were no longer talking to me because I used a swear word (*gasp*), not because I accused you of being ignorant. In this instance you, yourself, admitted that you were not aware of certain aspects of the dialogue. I did not insult you for this lack of awareness (though I did express my sheer surprise!) and proceeded to inform you. So, no harm, no foul, right?

What I expect of people willing to participate on a debate forum is to address the content of the posts. I expect them to be willing to absorb new information and incorporate it into their thinking and arguments.

So now that you are no longer unaware of the deliberate Arab Muslim rejection of the Jewish connection to the holy places, does this change your point of view?

I do consider swearing at a person to be disrespectful. A lot of that happens here and I add to my ignore list regularly. I actually cannot remember what you wrote but it was enough foe me to try having a dialog with you in whatever thread that was. I did not place you on ignore because I continued wanting to to read what you had to say. I had not noticed that you are in the habit of F-ing and Blinding other posters and that it might have been a momentary lapse of manners on your part.

I regret I do not meet your own standards of what you expect of others in a debate.

As for what you offer as proof that Palestinians (in general or officially in PLO statements) consider that Jews have no connection with the Holy Land, you quote the Mufti of Jerusalem from somewhere sometime saying that a wall was never part of a Jewish Temple in that part of Jerusalem. From my reading of the Wikipedia article, there is reason to believe from the Bible and another Roman source that there was a temple there and the wall was built as an expansion of Temple Mount in preparation for a larger temple. Technically, then, the wall was not part of a Jewish Temple and there is no stone belonging to any Jewish Temple there as far as we know. But the remaining part of the Western Wall would appear to be as Jewish as Herod the Great so the Mufti is on shaky ground, so to speak, to make the claim that: "In the whole city, there is not even a single stone indicating Jewish history", if that is indeed what he said.

Now, it is a far cry from the hyperbole of a Muslim cleric, albeit an important one, in an effort to prevent Jews from owning the Western Wall to say that Palestinians believe this, and even if they do, extrapolating from a part of a supporting wall at Temple Mount to the entire Holy Land is reading too much into it. My statement was that I had not come across the notion that the Palestinians want to erase all Jewish connection with the Holy Land and the Mufti's archaeological opinion about Jerusalem does not constitute such a widespread attitude among Palestinians or the PLO.

 

[Shusha]

I do consider swearing at a person to be disrespectful.

To be fair -- I didn't swear AT you. I just used a *cough cough* colorful word to describe your argument. Not actually intended to be disrespectful of you. Just your argument. If you can appreciate the difference. Grin.