Plenty of "Good Guys with Guns" But 6 Injured Anyway

[Brain357]

Yes, the average defensive shooter fired two rounds. This is a good study.

But it does not prove anything about what anyone will need to defend themselves, nor does it do anything to continue the insane idea that you need to regulate the people who do not commit crimes in order to stop crimes.

I'm interested in saving lives. There is no reason for anyone to have a hi cap magazine. It's not used for defense and it's not used for hunting. Why not make the mass shooter reload a lot and give his victims more of a chance?

So it is ok if he kills 10 people. But damn him if he kills more????

If you are really interested in saving lives, why in the hell are you focused only on mass shootings??? They account for 1% of the gun related deaths. Even if you limit magazine capacity, you are not stopping the mass shootings. You are simply HOPING that someone grabs him while he reloads. So he can kill 10 people before he is grabbed. How is that doing anything but paying lip-service to saving lives.

You want to save lives? Take the energy put into banning guns or magazines, and focus on keeping violent felons locked up.

Stopping all mass shootings prevents 1% of gun related murders.
Keeping violent felons locked up stops 75% of gun related murders.

Which shows a real interest in saving lives???

Hey I say do both. And mag limits would save lives in gang violence too. Smaller capacity would lead to fewer shots hitting unintended targets like always happens. I think every life is valuable. Registration and universal background checks would help keep the gun from the criminal before he shoots people.

 

[Missouri_Mike]

If any of you gun nuts were really interested in cutting the amount of gun violence, all you gotta do is make it illegal for any male under the age of 30 from owning a weapon of any sort. Enforced by long jail terms if even caught with a weapon while under the age of 30 and male. Never able to own a weapon again if caught. Make it hurt if you are under 30 with a gun.

But you all aren't interested in less violence. It would fuck with your professed need to own any and all weapons, you know, to protect yourselves from all the crazies with guns.

But I guess you all need the under 30 group to fight the revolution. Is that right?

So anyone under 30 doesn't deserve to be protected?

And under 30 and male is now the disqualification for owning a gun? Females get guns under 30? Why would that be?

This is your solution when the evidence points toward more people having guns keeps gun violence down.

Nice job moron.

 

[Brain357]

And even if the study looked at more than the 482 (or something) shootings, that does not mean there is any reason to ban high capacity magazines. As was shown before at least one mom used more than 2 rounds to defend her home. She used 15 rounds to chase the 3 thugs away. Would you have her surrender because she was outgunned?

The point is not the capacity of the weapon or even the weapon itself. It is the intent of the shooter.


Also, if your answer is limiting all magazines to 10 rounds, then you are essentially saying "It's ok to kill 10 people. But damn you for killing 12!!!"

For every case of someone using a hi cap mag for defense there are at least 1000 of some criminal using one for criminal activity like a mass shooting or a drive by. I still have not seen a link to this woman chasing the thugs away. Share it or it doesn't exist. BTW I believe you said you can reload so fast that mag capacity doesn't matter. So I guess these defenders would still be fine.

Yes, I did say that. I can reload my semi-auto pistol in less than 2 seconds.

But my point is that you are focusing your attention on something that makes very little difference. The high capacity magazines are NOT the problem. I have shown you what the problem is, and yet you still spout that drivel about "gun owners don't care about solutions!". When it is you who don't seem to give a shit about solutions. You ignore the one that can have a profound effect in favor of one that would matter only in the tiny percentage of cases.

No, I agree with you on many of your points. I think we agree on more than we disagree. I just want to do more than you do.

 

[Brain357]

And even if the study looked at more than the 482 (or something) shootings, that does not mean there is any reason to ban high capacity magazines. As was shown before at least one mom used more than 2 rounds to defend her home. She used 15 rounds to chase the 3 thugs away. Would you have her surrender because she was outgunned?

The point is not the capacity of the weapon or even the weapon itself. It is the intent of the shooter.


Also, if your answer is limiting all magazines to 10 rounds, then you are essentially saying "It's ok to kill 10 people. But damn you for killing 12!!!"

For every case of someone using a hi cap mag for defense there are at least 1000 of some criminal using one for criminal activity like a mass shooting or a drive by. I still have not seen a link to this woman chasing the thugs away. Share it or it doesn't exist. BTW I believe you said you can reload so fast that mag capacity doesn't matter. So I guess these defenders would still be fine.

Here is the link for the mom who defended her home with weapon with a high capacity magazine.

Now, by your own logic, your statement "For every case of someone using a hi cap mag for defense there are at least 1000 of some criminal using one for criminal activity like a mass shooting or a drive by.", do you have a link for that?

If not it is bullshit.

Link doesn't work.

 

[WinterBorn]

For every case of someone using a hi cap mag for defense there are at least 1000 of some criminal using one for criminal activity like a mass shooting or a drive by. I still have not seen a link to this woman chasing the thugs away. Share it or it doesn't exist. BTW I believe you said you can reload so fast that mag capacity doesn't matter. So I guess these defenders would still be fine.

Here is the link for the mom who defended her home with weapon with a high capacity magazine.

Now, by your own logic, your statement "For every case of someone using a hi cap mag for defense there are at least 1000 of some criminal using one for criminal activity like a mass shooting or a drive by.", do you have a link for that?

If not it is bullshit.

Link doesn't work.

Must-see surveillance footage: Tough Detroit mom opens fire on home intruders to defend children - ABC15 Arizona

Now can you link up to prove the claim you made?

 

[WinterBorn]

For every case of someone using a hi cap mag for defense there are at least 1000 of some criminal using one for criminal activity like a mass shooting or a drive by. I still have not seen a link to this woman chasing the thugs away. Share it or it doesn't exist. BTW I believe you said you can reload so fast that mag capacity doesn't matter. So I guess these defenders would still be fine.

Yes, I did say that. I can reload my semi-auto pistol in less than 2 seconds.

But my point is that you are focusing your attention on something that makes very little difference. The high capacity magazines are NOT the problem. I have shown you what the problem is, and yet you still spout that drivel about "gun owners don't care about solutions!". When it is you who don't seem to give a shit about solutions. You ignore the one that can have a profound effect in favor of one that would matter only in the tiny percentage of cases.

No, I agree with you on many of your points. I think we agree on more than we disagree. I just want to do more than you do.

No, I think you are focused on a media talking point that matters very little.

Here is why:

First, banning high capacity magazines is only a valid point in mass shootings. And the result would not be to stop mass shootings, but to reduce the body count.

Since mass shootings only account for 1% of the gun related murders, and they would still have 10 rounds, might (best case scenario) cut the body count in half. So you would have reduced the number of gun related deaths by 0.5%.

In 2006 there were 12,791 gun related murders.
In 2007 there were 12,632 gun related murders.
In 2008 there were 12,179 gun related murders.
In 2009 there were 11,493 gun related murders.
in 2010 there were 11,078 gun related murders.

That means the gun related murders went down by:
Between 2006 & 2007 - dropped by 415 murders or 3.6%
Between 2007 & 2008 - dropped by 686 murders or 5.6%
Between 2008 & 2009 - dropped by 453 murders or 3.6%
Between 2009 & 2010 - dropped by 159 murders or 1.2%

So your "solution" doesn't even amount to what has been happening without any changes in magazine capacities, access to "assault rifles", additional background checks, closing the "Gun Show Loophole" or any other legislative actions against law abiding gun owners.


It simply is not something that is worth the effort. And if it did not show the desired results, those who favor this would not admit their error. They would go after MORE bans.

Now, if we had keep the violent felons locked up for that same period of time, the murder numbers would be as follows:

In 2006 there would be 3198 instead of 12,791 gun related murders.
In 2007 there would be 3158 instead of 12,632 gun related murders.
In 2008 there would be 3045 instead of 12,179 gun related murders.
In 2009 there would be 2873 instead of 11,493 gun related murders.
in 2010 there would be 2770 instead of 11,078 gun related murders.

Ban the felons and then come talk about restrictions on law abiding citizens.

 

[Little-Acorn]

What other use, other than killing the most people inthe shortest period of time is a weapon with a magazine of greater than ten rounds? It is a weapon of war and a weapon used on offense.

Apparently this strange person thinks that if a guy is robbing my store, and I pull out a gun that has an eight-round magazine, the guy will run away or surrender. But if I pull out a gun that has a twelve-round mag, they guy will apparently stop, count the rounds in the mag, and then go right on robbing the store. Because a gun with a twelve-round mag isn't a defensive weapon.

Boy, when these liberals lose a debate, they start coming up with the screwiest "facts" imaginable. And they actually think they DON'T look ridiculous to normal people.

You're right! We should surrender tothe gun nuts! They have NO CONCERN FORPUBLIC SAFETY. Only a list for all things that go Bang! Like little boys who have become bored by firecrackers or constantly want to play Army, the gun nuts offer no solutions to gun violence.

They rationalize the deaths of of school children by citing constitutional rights to bear arms. They forget the lost lives and advocate slathering on MORE GUNS as a solution.

Their obscene action movie heroes have obliterated any sense of responsibility toward keeping our nation safe from gun violence. I surrender! Let's all get guns, gather on a hot summer night, get pissed drunk and shoot each other. In one last orgy of gun violence!

You idiots offer no solutions. But escalated violence for violence sake and some death wish by constitutional fiat.

As usual, the strange person who keeps losing the debate, lapses into hysterical ranting after he gets his head handed to him for the 359th time. In doing so, he ignores the arguments that made sense, claims the sensible people said things they didn't say, tells lies about them, calls them names, and finishes up with more hysteria.

(yawn)

 

[Little-Acorn]

Most people seem to be missing the most important reason why all law-abiding citizens should be able to carry a gun wherever they want.

If concealed carry by responsible adults is allowed, most still won't bother to carry. But a few will. And a whacko who wants to mow down a bunch of kids in a school, or a bunch of people in a shopping mall, will know there's a pretty good chance he'll get stopped very quickly if he pulls out his weapon and starts shooting... and he won't know where the bullet will come from, so he can't take out that person in advance. And so, he'll be less likely to even try it in the first place, knowing that he probably won't succeed.

Many of these whackos aren't afraid to die. Many of them kill themselves when the cops finally start closing in. But even those want to rack up a huge body count before they die, to generate lurid headlines for weeks after they're gone. And the chance that they'll get stopped within their first few shots, will make a difference even to the insane ones who want all the headlines.

That's the greatest advantage of concealed carry. Not just blowing away the criminal after he fires the first few shots. But in stopping him from even trying in the first place. Even though he knows that most people where he's committing his crime still don't have guns, he knows that one or two might... and he won't know which one(s). A far different situation from what these shooters face today at our schools, shopping malls, and other so-called "gun-free zones".

 

[WinterBorn]

I'm interested in saving lives. There is no reason for anyone to have a hi cap magazine. It's not used for defense and it's not used for hunting. Why not make the mass shooter reload a lot and give his victims more of a chance?

So it is ok if he kills 10 people. But damn him if he kills more????

If you are really interested in saving lives, why in the hell are you focused only on mass shootings??? They account for 1% of the gun related deaths. Even if you limit magazine capacity, you are not stopping the mass shootings. You are simply HOPING that someone grabs him while he reloads. So he can kill 10 people before he is grabbed. How is that doing anything but paying lip-service to saving lives.

You want to save lives? Take the energy put into banning guns or magazines, and focus on keeping violent felons locked up.

Stopping all mass shootings prevents 1% of gun related murders.
Keeping violent felons locked up stops 75% of gun related murders.

Which shows a real interest in saving lives???

Hey I say do both. And mag limits would save lives in gang violence too. Smaller capacity would lead to fewer shots hitting unintended targets like always happens. I think every life is valuable. Registration and universal background checks would help keep the gun from the criminal before he shoots people.

The gang violence would likely be uneffected. Since many of the driveby shootings are done using full automatic weapons, they are not buying their guns thru legal channels. The same places where they obtain Mac-10s and Uzis would likely have plenty of high capacity magazines.

Also, it is unlikely that a shooting is their first violent felony, so my suggestion would have them in prison anyway.

 

[Spoonman]

We aren't discussing how many times police fire. The study doesn't lie. I notice you posted no links to back anything up. Try facts.

And even if the study looked at more than the 482 (or something) shootings, that does not mean there is any reason to ban high capacity magazines. As was shown before at least one mom used more than 2 rounds to defend her home. She used 15 rounds to chase the 3 thugs away. Would you have her surrender because she was outgunned?

The point is not the capacity of the weapon or even the weapon itself. It is the intent of the shooter.


Also, if your answer is limiting all magazines to 10 rounds, then you are essentially saying "It's ok to kill 10 people. But damn you for killing 12!!!"

For every case of someone using a hi cap mag for defense there are at least 1000 of some criminal using one for criminal activity like a mass shooting or a drive by. I still have not seen a link to this woman chasing the thugs away. Share it or it doesn't exist. BTW I believe you said you can reload so fast that mag capacity doesn't matter. So I guess these defenders would still be fine.

considering there have been like 10 mass shootings in the last decade I think your estimates are just a tad high

 

[Spoonman]

If they are so easy to make, please document making one and fire it in your favorite gun. I would much prefer the guy shooting at me is using some junk magazine he made.

Tactical disadvantage? In a previous post you were going on about how fast you can reload. Well you can't have both sides of this argument. If you can reload so fast then it's not a disadvantage. And studies show defense uses 2-3 shots. Only people using hi cap magazines are mass shooters and gang bangers.

Ammo clips of any capacity can easily be made using a 3D printer.

An EXTREMELY expensive 3D printer. If you can afford the printer you wouldn't be making what would be illegal magazines. And yes they are called magazines.

PC's used to e extremely expensive. today they are almost disposable. today a cell phone does what a pc did a decade ago.

 

[Spoonman]

The fact remains that more than ten rounds makes a weapon offensive rather than defensive.

When and where has this so-called "fact" been demonstrated?

What other use, other than killing the most people inthe shortest period of time is a weapon with a magazine of greater than ten rounds? It is a weapon of war and a weapon used on offense.

I have 20 round clips. 30 round, 70 round drums, 100 round drums. I use them all the time and they've never killed a single person

 

[Spoonman]

I offered documented evidence concerning the background checks and personal observations about magazine capacities. I notice you dismissed my offered solution of keeping violent felons behind bars? Since I also offered documented evidence that a large percentage of those felons released are rearrested for committing violent crime, I would think it was a good idea.

Who has the political will to spend billions on prisons while cutting benefits to the elderly and impoverished? Who has the political will to keep an even larger percentage of our citizens behind bars?

Certainly no one with a modicum of forethought. That eliminates the current crop of small government hyperConservatives. They would never agree to expanding the budget to build more government facilities.

We are not reducing gun violence by locking up the criminals for a longer time. They have to have committed a crime, been convicted and sentenced for that crime to be in prison in the first place. Do you see a lot of shooters being convicted? They usually snuff themselves out in the cafeteria or playground before they can be arrested.

The ones who are willing to die committing their crime are not going to be stopped by background checks or limits on magazine capacities either.

But since convicted felons account for a larger portion of the gun murders than the crazies doing mass shootings, my solution seems to be much better.

I have a suggestion concerning prison populations as well. Release all the people in prison for nonviolent drug crimes, especially marijuana related crimes. This will reduce the prison population significantly.

I am not giving up on the problem. I simply think that the solution should be aimed at the actual cause of the deaths. The shooters and not the tools they use.

jared loughner passed a background check. I don't understand why liberals always put their hopes in ineffective plans?

 

[WinterBorn]

And even if the study looked at more than the 482 (or something) shootings, that does not mean there is any reason to ban high capacity magazines. As was shown before at least one mom used more than 2 rounds to defend her home. She used 15 rounds to chase the 3 thugs away. Would you have her surrender because she was outgunned?

The point is not the capacity of the weapon or even the weapon itself. It is the intent of the shooter.


Also, if your answer is limiting all magazines to 10 rounds, then you are essentially saying "It's ok to kill 10 people. But damn you for killing 12!!!"

For every case of someone using a hi cap mag for defense there are at least 1000 of some criminal using one for criminal activity like a mass shooting or a drive by. I still have not seen a link to this woman chasing the thugs away. Share it or it doesn't exist. BTW I believe you said you can reload so fast that mag capacity doesn't matter. So I guess these defenders would still be fine.

considering there have been like 10 mass shootings in the last decade I think your estimates are just a tad high

I have asked him for a link but he hasn't given one, whereas he claimed that without a link something didn't happen.

 

[Brain357]

Here is the link for the mom who defended her home with weapon with a high capacity magazine.

Now, by your own logic, your statement "For every case of someone using a hi cap mag for defense there are at least 1000 of some criminal using one for criminal activity like a mass shooting or a drive by.", do you have a link for that?

If not it is bullshit.

Link doesn't work.

Must-see surveillance footage: Tough Detroit mom opens fire on home intruders to defend children - ABC15 Arizona

Now can you link up to prove the claim you made?

Is there someplace that says how many shots were fired? I hear about 4. It looks like a hi point carbine to me which usually has a 10 round magazine.

 

[Brain357]

Ammo clips of any capacity can easily be made using a 3D printer.

An EXTREMELY expensive 3D printer. If you can afford the printer you wouldn't be making what would be illegal magazines. And yes they are called magazines.

PC's used to e extremely expensive. today they are almost disposable. today a cell phone does what a pc did a decade ago.

Ok show me a cheap printer that will do that.

 

[Brain357]

When and where has this so-called "fact" been demonstrated?

What other use, other than killing the most people inthe shortest period of time is a weapon with a magazine of greater than ten rounds? It is a weapon of war and a weapon used on offense.

I have 20 round clips. 30 round, 70 round drums, 100 round drums. I use them all the time and they've never killed a single person

And what of great importance are you using them for?

 

[WinterBorn]

Link doesn't work.

Must-see surveillance footage: Tough Detroit mom opens fire on home intruders to defend children - ABC15 Arizona

Now can you link up to prove the claim you made?

Is there someplace that says how many shots were fired? I hear about 4. It looks like a hi point carbine to me which usually has a 10 round magazine.

I didn't see any description of the number of shots fired.

Have you come up with a link concerning the 1000 gang shootings for ever legal owner of high capacity magazines?

 

[Brain357]

For every case of someone using a hi cap mag for defense there are at least 1000 of some criminal using one for criminal activity like a mass shooting or a drive by. I still have not seen a link to this woman chasing the thugs away. Share it or it doesn't exist. BTW I believe you said you can reload so fast that mag capacity doesn't matter. So I guess these defenders would still be fine.

considering there have been like 10 mass shootings in the last decade I think your estimates are just a tad high

I have asked him for a link but he hasn't given one, whereas he claimed that without a link something didn't happen.

Do you really doubt that criminals fire way more shots from hi cap magazines than defenders do? I don't think you do.

 

[WinterBorn]

What other use, other than killing the most people inthe shortest period of time is a weapon with a magazine of greater than ten rounds? It is a weapon of war and a weapon used on offense.

I have 20 round clips. 30 round, 70 round drums, 100 round drums. I use them all the time and they've never killed a single person

And what of great importance are you using them for?

Is there some law that requires they be used for only things of great importance?

He has never killed anyone with them. Should he have them taken away?