Politics Divides, the Gospel Unites

In a perfect world, Christianity (or even the more generic faith in God) would be uniting.

But, in our modern, imperfect world, too much of Christianity identifies themselves not so much as followers of the Lamb, but followers of the GOP agenda. Beginning in the 1970's with people like Jerry Falwelll and Pat Robertson, a deliberate movement was started to co-opt Christ into the Republican Party and adopt the party's platform as defacto evidence of true Christian "faith."

That this doctrine of devils has succeeded is admirably demonstrated by the OP's assertion that liberals (a political definition) can't possibly be Christian's. Very often, we even hear non-conforming (i.e. non-conservative) Christian's identified as enemies of Christ!

The Jesus Christ of the Evangelical movement is anything but uniting because the message supposedly coming from Him is intolerant, unforgiving, bigoted and selfish.

That's not the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

It's not the Jesus Christ of most of the Christians in the world either despite the fact that the anti-religion groups scour the Earth for something, anything, however rarely anecdotal or however removed from the current culture, that they can use to demonize Christianity.

The evidence remains that it is almost--not quite all but almost--always the Christians you find working with the homeless in the cities, staffing the soup kitchens, supervising the shelters, and organizing and manning the thrift shops and food pantries and retraining centers. It is some of the most legalistic, narrow minded, fundamentalist Christians that routinely risk their very lives to get relief supplies into devastated but dangerous areas, who devote years to work in the leper colonies, in the poorest neighborhoods of Calcutta, Bangladesh, and Africa among people who never heard of Jesus Christ, much less are Christian. They define tolerance as loving God's people whoever and wherever they are.

It is mostly Christians who pushed for hellfire towns to be tamed, for schools and churches to be built, and for law instead of vengeance to be the policy. It is mostly Christians who pushed for an end to slavery, for women's suffrage, for civil rights.

It is mostly Christians who defend marriage, not for religious reasons but for the benefit of the children and society, who give up their vacations year after year to spend two to four weeks among the poor in Peru and southeast Asia and other remote places to fit refurbished wheel chairs, walkers, braces, and other liberating equipment to people who would never have had access to these things or would never have been able to afford them. It is mostly Christians, many from America, who staff orphanages in some of the poorest and most dangerous neighborhoods in Mexico and establish and maintain ranches for orphaned or troubled children here in America.

Hundreds of millions of Christians everywhere are going about their business, paying their taxes, obeying the laws, being good citizens and being a credit to their communities, while sharing their time, talent, and ability in volunteer work to help others and/or giving significantly from their material holdings to help support all those other miinistries all over the world.

When you can point to any organizations of Atheists or any other groups who do as much for so many, without publicity, without recognition, without much if anything in the way of financial reward, and often at the risk of their own health, safety, and well being, then you can accuse Christians in general of not being Christian.

Now you can focus on these who are the rule. Or you can look for the anecdotal evidence that are the exceptions.
 
So much of my experience has been that the left is anti-religion. They want God out of schools, out of government, out of society. If we could bring America back to God, I have no doubt we could bring the Democrat Party back to real liberals and away from the socialists/marxists/communists/fascists/statists who have hijacked it.

Both anecdotal and irrelevant.

And your ‘experience’ is severely limited.

The vast majority of liberals are Christian; that majority grows even larger when you include all persons of all faiths.

Consequently, your notion that ‘the left’ is ‘anti-religion’ is ignorant idiocy.

What you incorrectly perceive as ‘anti-religion’ on the part of liberals is in fact their correct and accurate understanding of the Framers intent with regard to separation of church and state, where the Establishment Clause clearly prohibits conjoining religious dogma and secular law.

No one is seeking to ‘get god out of schools,’ or any other venue, for that matter. Rather, various jurisdictions are obeying the Constitution and its case law with regard to freedom from state sponsored religion, where government may neither sanction nor compel adherence to a given faith. Or violate the good conscience of any person, to believe or not to believe, free from religious extremism, as might be authorized by the state.
 
In a perfect world, Christianity (or even the more generic faith in God) would be uniting.

But, in our modern, imperfect world, too much of Christianity identifies themselves not so much as followers of the Lamb, but followers of the GOP agenda. Beginning in the 1970's with people like Jerry Falwelll and Pat Robertson, a deliberate movement was started to co-opt Christ into the Republican Party and adopt the party's platform as defacto evidence of true Christian "faith."

That this doctrine of devils has succeeded is admirably demonstrated by the OP's assertion that liberals (a political definition) can't possibly be Christian's. Very often, we even hear non-conforming (i.e. non-conservative) Christian's identified as enemies of Christ!

The Jesus Christ of the Evangelical movement is anything but uniting because the message supposedly coming from Him is intolerant, unforgiving, bigoted and selfish.

That's not the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

Care to point out what post I stated that? No? Didn't think so.

For the record, I have family members that are very much liberal and have a deep faith. To state that I believe a liberal "couldn't possibly be Christian" is absurd beyond adjectives.

However, if you look at those who have pushed to get God out of America, the overwhelming have identified themselves as liberals - and that is just a FACT that OldGuy here (like most facts) is uncomfortable with.
 
The Gospels unite... there is the Westboro Baptist Church which is a beacon of love, patience, and tolerance...:lol:

So you consider the Westboro Baptist Church to be "the gospel"? Really? You don't think they are whacko's who have perverted the Bible?

This says more about you g-string than anything anyone else could ever say... :lol:
 
In a perfect world, Christianity (or even the more generic faith in God) would be uniting.

But, in our modern, imperfect world, too much of Christianity identifies themselves not so much as followers of the Lamb, but followers of the GOP agenda. Beginning in the 1970's with people like Jerry Falwelll and Pat Robertson, a deliberate movement was started to co-opt Christ into the Republican Party and adopt the party's platform as defacto evidence of true Christian "faith."

That this doctrine of devils has succeeded is admirably demonstrated by the OP's assertion that liberals (a political definition) can't possibly be Christian's. Very often, we even hear non-conforming (i.e. non-conservative) Christian's identified as enemies of Christ!

The Jesus Christ of the Evangelical movement is anything but uniting because the message supposedly coming from Him is intolerant, unforgiving, bigoted and selfish.

That's not the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

Care to point out what post I stated that? No? Didn't think so.

For the record, I have family members that are very much liberal and have a deep faith. To state that I believe a liberal "couldn't possibly be Christian" is absurd beyond adjectives.

However, if you look at those who have pushed to get God out of America, the overwhelming have identified themselves as liberals - and that is just a FACT that OldGuy here (like most facts) is uncomfortable with.


You said:

"So much of my experience has been that the left is anti-religion."

If one is "anti-religion," how can one possibly be a Christian?
 
Exodus 21.

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.


If someone hurts a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely, but the baby is not harmed, then the person who hurt the woman will pay a fine. But if the unborn baby dies, the person who killed the unborn child must be put to death.

That's not what that passage means. The "no mischief" is the death of the mother, the "fruit" being lost means the man can demand monetary payment, but if the mother dies, the guy's toast.


The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.

And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. -- Leviticus 27:6
Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.

Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of The Lord. -- Numbers 3:15-16
 
In a perfect world, Christianity (or even the more generic faith in God) would be uniting.

But, in our modern, imperfect world, too much of Christianity identifies themselves not so much as followers of the Lamb, but followers of the GOP agenda. Beginning in the 1970's with people like Jerry Falwelll and Pat Robertson, a deliberate movement was started to co-opt Christ into the Republican Party and adopt the party's platform as defacto evidence of true Christian "faith."

That this doctrine of devils has succeeded is admirably demonstrated by the OP's assertion that liberals (a political definition) can't possibly be Christian's. Very often, we even hear non-conforming (i.e. non-conservative) Christian's identified as enemies of Christ!

The Jesus Christ of the Evangelical movement is anything but uniting because the message supposedly coming from Him is intolerant, unforgiving, bigoted and selfish.

That's not the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

Care to point out what post I stated that? No? Didn't think so.

For the record, I have family members that are very much liberal and have a deep faith. To state that I believe a liberal "couldn't possibly be Christian" is absurd beyond adjectives.

However, if you look at those who have pushed to get God out of America, the overwhelming have identified themselves as liberals - and that is just a FACT that OldGuy here (like most facts) is uncomfortable with.

More unsubstantiated nonsense, no one is ‘pushing god out of America,’ all persons of faith in the United States are at liberty to practice their beliefs whenever, wherever, and however they wish.

They may not, however, attempt to conjoin their subjective religious dogma with secular law in violation of the First Amendment; and that the Establishment Clause prohibits them from doing so is not ‘denying’ them their faith.
 
In a perfect world, Christianity (or even the more generic faith in God) would be uniting.

But, in our modern, imperfect world, too much of Christianity identifies themselves not so much as followers of the Lamb, but followers of the GOP agenda. Beginning in the 1970's with people like Jerry Falwelll and Pat Robertson, a deliberate movement was started to co-opt Christ into the Republican Party and adopt the party's platform as defacto evidence of true Christian "faith."

That this doctrine of devils has succeeded is admirably demonstrated by the OP's assertion that liberals (a political definition) can't possibly be Christian's. Very often, we even hear non-conforming (i.e. non-conservative) Christian's identified as enemies of Christ!

The Jesus Christ of the Evangelical movement is anything but uniting because the message supposedly coming from Him is intolerant, unforgiving, bigoted and selfish.

That's not the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

Care to point out what post I stated that? No? Didn't think so.

For the record, I have family members that are very much liberal and have a deep faith. To state that I believe a liberal "couldn't possibly be Christian" is absurd beyond adjectives.

However, if you look at those who have pushed to get God out of America, the overwhelming have identified themselves as liberals - and that is just a FACT that OldGuy here (like most facts) is uncomfortable with.


You said:

"So much of my experience has been that the left is anti-religion."

If one is "anti-religion," how can one possibly be a Christian?

Yes....??? Two key parts there: much and my experience. And from that you derive "liberals can't possibly be Christians"?

much and my experience = much (not all) of what I've experienced ONLY

can't possibly = 100% cannot be under any circumstance - including beyond personal experience

Come on.... that's so blatantly disingenuous - you're clearly just looking for a fight here. I guess your'e only happy if you're arguing. Good luck getting other fish to bite.
 
Care to point out what post I stated that? No? Didn't think so.

For the record, I have family members that are very much liberal and have a deep faith. To state that I believe a liberal "couldn't possibly be Christian" is absurd beyond adjectives.

However, if you look at those who have pushed to get God out of America, the overwhelming have identified themselves as liberals - and that is just a FACT that OldGuy here (like most facts) is uncomfortable with.


You said:

"So much of my experience has been that the left is anti-religion."

If one is "anti-religion," how can one possibly be a Christian?

Yes....??? Two key parts there: much and my experience. And from that you derive "liberals can't possibly be Christians"?

much and my experience = much (not all) of what I've experienced ONLY

can't possibly = 100% cannot be under any circumstance - including beyond personal experience

Come on.... that's so blatantly disingenuous - you're clearly just looking for a fight here. I guess your'e only happy if you're arguing. Good luck getting other fish to bite.


Oh, so now the "they" you accused are just those who are "they" in your experience?

Don't hurt yourself running backward from your own comments.
 
In a perfect world, Christianity (or even the more generic faith in God) would be uniting.

But, in our modern, imperfect world, too much of Christianity identifies themselves not so much as followers of the Lamb, but followers of the GOP agenda. Beginning in the 1970's with people like Jerry Falwelll and Pat Robertson, a deliberate movement was started to co-opt Christ into the Republican Party and adopt the party's platform as defacto evidence of true Christian "faith."

That this doctrine of devils has succeeded is admirably demonstrated by the OP's assertion that liberals (a political definition) can't possibly be Christian's. Very often, we even hear non-conforming (i.e. non-conservative) Christian's identified as enemies of Christ!

The Jesus Christ of the Evangelical movement is anything but uniting because the message supposedly coming from Him is intolerant, unforgiving, bigoted and selfish.

That's not the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

Care to point out what post I stated that? No? Didn't think so.

For the record, I have family members that are very much liberal and have a deep faith. To state that I believe a liberal "couldn't possibly be Christian" is absurd beyond adjectives.

However, if you look at those who have pushed to get God out of America, the overwhelming have identified themselves as liberals - and that is just a FACT that OldGuy here (like most facts) is uncomfortable with.

More unsubstantiated nonsense, no one is ‘pushing god out of America,’ all persons of faith in the United States are at liberty to practice their beliefs whenever, wherever, and however they wish.

They may not, however, attempt to conjoin their subjective religious dogma with secular law in violation of the First Amendment; and that the Establishment Clause prohibits them from doing so is not ‘denying’ them their faith.

1. Where did I say anything about "denying" anyone their faith?

2. No where in the United States Constitution does the phrase "separation of church and state" exist. Period. End of Story. If you had ever bothered to actually read the document that affords you your rights to post your radical views here on USMB, you would know that. Therefore, your entire post is flat out bogus/inaccurate.

Our founders NEVER intended the "seperation of church and state" - and that is simply an undeniable fact. They afford us freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.
 
Was abortion ever mentioned in the bible?

For rightists it really makes no difference, they’re accustomed to contriving partisan nonsense absent evidence and documentation; why should this be any different.

Says the one man on USMB who has never added a link to back up his nonsensical drivel, all the while getting annihilated with documentation.

I've yet to see him add even a single post (granted, I couldn't possibly have seen every post he has made) but that doesn't change the fact that while drown him in documentation links, he only responds with his own opinion and nothing to back it up
 
The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.

:cuckoo: wow.... I mean, seriously, wow.... :cuckoo:

This is as unhinged bat-shit crazy as anything I have ever seen.

The most basic, fundamental, principle laid out as loud and clear as possible in the bible is that of life and especially that of children. To even pretend that God places has "no value" on fetuses or newborns defies sanity.
 
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I'm no expert, but wouldn't pro-lifers count abortion under "Thou Shalt Not Kill"?

.

Most prolifers do consider the unborn baby to be a human life. And they take seriously a decision to end that life for no better reason than it is inconvenient for the mother or the mother doesn't want it. That is not the same thing as saying that there is never a valid reason to end a pregnancy or that all abortion for any reason should be banned.
 
The Gospels unite. That's why we have thousands of different factions of Christianity in America.

There are Catholics who believe all Protestants are going to hell.

And then there is the Westboro Baptist Church which is a beacon of love, patience, and tolerance...:lol:

Then you got the Klan and their holy burning crosses.

Let's not forget the Christian Identity movement.

Or The Troubles in Ireland.

Yep. I see a lot of unity, all right!

Depends on how you view unity. In the Coffee Shop for instance, we have a LOT of different religions represented ranging all the way from very fundamental fundamentalists to dedicated agnostics and hard core Atheists, Christians, Muslims, Jews, and Buddhists at least. Yet we can discuss almost any topic in there, including what we are doing in church, missions, and maintain a vigil/prayer list that even the Atheists participate in as it allows for good vibes along with prayer to whatever Deity. Religion, in its broadest concept, is not a divisive force in there and, in a way, has been a unifying force.

You take those very same people though, and introduce a political topic, or get into a free for all re theology, and I'm pretty sure it would be a very different story. Which is why politics and religious theology are taboo in the Coffee Shop.

But while religion has in no way been a stumbling block for us in forming an on line family of sorts--and there's room for many many more--it is not any kind of clique--politics seems to be much more likely to create enemies and on going adversaries. Politics seems to bring out the worst in many people who will insert politics even into intended congenial religious discussions.

Just an observation.

The point of my post was to demonstrate the logical fallacy behind the idea the Muslim religion contains magical unicorn properties which make its adherents more maniacal or contentious than Christians.

The OP is a bigoted, ignorant post. Vote Republican...unless you are a Muslim. We HATE Muslims!

And my point was that religion can be a unifying factor despite the efforts of some to cherry pick anecdotal evidence to hold up as the way all religious are.
 
Well having spent a huge chunk of my adult life in a Christian denomination that has become increasingly liberal over the decades and currently is among the MOST liberal denominations in America--it permeates their sermons, their Sunday School materials, their larger missions, conventions, and outreach--you can't make a blanket statement that the Left, or even most of the Left, is anti-religion.

The most we can conclude based on empirical evidence is that most of those who want God out of schools, out of government, out of society are those who lean left. I say most because I know a few hard core conservatives who are just as anti-religion, but those are fairly rare.

You guys just don't get it; it's not about getting God out of schools, it's about not forcing our view of God on anyone. When you talk about wanting God back in the schools, you are talking about your view of God. How about this? If you want God back in the schools so much, how about we bring Allah into our schools? They can teach the Koran and our kids can pray five times per day to Allah. Does that sound like what you want in our schools?

I didn't think so.

You do realize that any child can pray in school on their own, right? If parents choose to raise their children with religious indoctrination, that is fine and can all happen outside of school. Those children can then pray in school on their own if that is what they want to do. I just don't want the schools pushing Allah and Islam down my kid's throat on a daily basis.

Well let's review.

How many on the left want abortion as a legal right to be considered only in private? Who object to objections to abortion being promoted in the classroom?

(Let's see what Jesus said about abortion. Oh, that's right. He never once mentioned it.)

How many on the left want gay marriage as a good thing to be considered only in private? Who would object to traditional marriage being promoted as the norm in the classroom?

(Let's see what Jesus said about gay marriage. Oh, that's right. He never once mentioned it.)

How many on the left want sexuality and the use of condoms to be considered only in private? Who object to abstinance before marriage being promoted as the most effectve prevention for unwanted pregnancy and STDs?

(Let's see what Jesus said about abstinance and birth control. Oh, that's right. He never once mentioned it.)

How many on the left want the virtues of government benevolence in the New Deal to be considered only in private? Who object to promotion of the idea that government charity creates corruption and/or unhealthy dependency among the beneficiaries of the charity?

(Let's see what Jesus said about government provided benefits. Oh, that's right. He never once mentioned it.)

When you look at it from the perspective of secular humanistic concepts being the only acceptable topics to consider in public education, and don't care that making a child's God illegal to discuss or consider in that same environment is damaging to that child, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the problem.

Jesus has enough problems working His wonders in this world without people like you putting out words and ideas that weren't even spoken by Him. Yet people like you use it as some sort of "litmus test" to show who is a "real" Christian.

Freedom of Religion is more than just freedom on your own religion.

And why does any of the above items need to be taight in school? If nothing else to fight ignorance and bigotry.

You should consider joining the Westboro Church. You'd fit right in.
 
Our founders NEVER intended the "seperation of church and state" - and that is simply an undeniable fact.

It is? Prove it.

I already did :)cuckoo:) - it's called the Constitution and it is very clear. Our founders went out of their way to place restrictions on government - and not once did they restrict religion from the government.
 
So much of my experience has been that the left is anti-religion. They want God out of schools, out of government, out of society. If we could bring America back to God, I have no doubt we could bring the Democrat Party back to real liberals and away from the socialists/marxists/communists/fascists/statists who have hijacked it.

Well having spent a huge chunk of my adult life in a Christian denomination that has become increasingly liberal over the decades and currently is among the MOST liberal denominations in America--it permeates their sermons, their Sunday School materials, their larger missions, conventions, and outreach--you can't make a blanket statement that the Left, or even most of the Left, is anti-religion.

The most we can conclude based on empirical evidence is that most of those who want God out of schools, out of government, out of society are those who lean left. I say most because I know a few hard core conservatives who are just as anti-religion, but those are fairly rare.

Great point. I would also add that although you may find democrats who are opposed to partial birth abortions, homosexual marriage, etc you would easier find an albino than a republican who would support either. Therein his reason for stating the left as the party that is anti - God. Probaby the most significant evidence of it recently would be the DNC convention where they voted no to God / no to Jerusalem being Israels capitol although after a 3rd or 4th vote they claimed it was a yes vote. So there's that too. I've noticed the hateful rhetoric is unprecedented under the current administration as it is his goal to divide the nation. - Jeremiah
 
And why does any of the above items need to be taight in school? If nothing else to fight ignorance and bigotry.

And where did anyone say anything about teaching religion in school? :cuckoo:

You should really learn how to read and then comprehend what you read. There have been instances of schools forcing cheerleaders to take down their signs because they included religious references, instances of schools banning the speeches of valedictorians because they included religious references, and a whole lot more.

There is a huge difference between allowing God to be in our schools and teaching God in our schools.
 

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