[POLL] - Liberals, how much is a "fair share?" - Taxes

[bripat9643]

Because the people who you're talking about are very fat and comfortable here. They know that there isn't a better deal in the world.

So how does that entitle you or anyone else to any of their stuff? You just enunciated the morality of a thug.

They lucked out by being born here. Luck isn't free.

You also lucked out being born here. Does that mean I'm entitled to take your stuff? I'll be over with a truck tomorrow.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I have said in earlier posts that history shows 45% in times of peace would probably be sufficient. If you have major operations overseas 70% to 90% is justified.

"Sufficient" for what? You have to be insane to believe high marginal rates are beneficial for the economy. You picked one period in history when the rest of the world had been bombed into the Stone Age as evidence that high marginal rates are good for the economy. Of course you are ignoring the fact that Hoover jacked up marginal rates to 75% during his administration, and FDR jacked them up to 90%. What was the result? 12 years of unemployment at over 17%.

When Kennedy lowered marginal rates to 70%, the economy boomed. When Reagan lowered them to 28%, the economy boomed even more. When Coolidge lowered them in the 20s, the economy boomed. Prior to 1916 we had no income tax, and the economy boomed from the Civil War to WW I.

There is no theory of economics that would advocate high marginal tax rates as a condition for economic growth.

sufficient to pay for government and to pay down debt.

Of course you can lower rates and the economy booms. But if you are not paying down debt or are in fact accumulating it, as Reagan was, it will eventually catch up to you.

Well, here's a thought, and stop me if you've heard this before: perhaps instead of taking huge amounts of people's earnings in order for taxes to be "sufficient to pay for government", we should stop having so damned much government to pay for. I say this particularly in light of the fact that relatively very few people think the vast majority of our government does anything they want, anyway; just twits like you, mostly.

And the best part is, we ALSO wouldn't keep accumulating more and more debt for non-productive, greedy dipshits like YOU to keep demanding that we "pay down".

 

[PMZ]

Some did, other Executives had to move to China. I know, I was given an offer for promotion to an Executive level position (Distinguished Engineer / Director of a Division in China). The catch was I would have had to move, and become an Ex-Patriot.

Work the numbers. The present level of unemployment is caused by the consumption loss from all of those workers here who are now unemployed, less the excess government stimulation spending.

Wrong. It was caused by the government forcing banks to give mortgages to people who couldn't pay them. This created excess demand for housing that couldn't be supported economically. Economists call this "mal investment." Unemployment remains high as a result of Obama's systematic attempts to destroy the economy.

Your hero executives, following make more money regardless of the cost to others, shot business in the foot. And they took that shot because it was hugely, personally rewarding.

Totally wrong. American banks lost trillions of dollars on the government created housing bubble.

Is that a screwed up system or what?

Government is definitely screwed up. Of that there is no doubt. What's even more screwed up is the boot-licking drones who defend this behavior and attempt to blame innocent parties for the crimes of politicians.

I know that you are required to repeat Republican dogma but you are almost completely wrong. And today, most people know it.

But I know that you are unable to change and I'm unable to care about that. You can rant all of the ignorance you want and nothing will change.

Conservatism's era is dead of self inflicted wounds.

The voters of America know the truth, the real results and the real causes and your lies are unable to change any of that.

You will be recorded by history as a victim of democracy. Another victory for the American Way.

 

[PMZ]

"Sufficient" for what? You have to be insane to believe high marginal rates are beneficial for the economy. You picked one period in history when the rest of the world had been bombed into the Stone Age as evidence that high marginal rates are good for the economy. Of course you are ignoring the fact that Hoover jacked up marginal rates to 75% during his administration, and FDR jacked them up to 90%. What was the result? 12 years of unemployment at over 17%.

When Kennedy lowered marginal rates to 70%, the economy boomed. When Reagan lowered them to 28%, the economy boomed even more. When Coolidge lowered them in the 20s, the economy boomed. Prior to 1916 we had no income tax, and the economy boomed from the Civil War to WW I.

There is no theory of economics that would advocate high marginal tax rates as a condition for economic growth.

sufficient to pay for government and to pay down debt.

Of course you can lower rates and the economy booms. But if you are not paying down debt or are in fact accumulating it, as Reagan was, it will eventually catch up to you.

Well, here's a thought, and stop me if you've heard this before: perhaps instead of taking huge amounts of people's earnings in order for taxes to be "sufficient to pay for government", we should stop having so damned much government to pay for. I say this particularly in light of the fact that relatively very few people think the vast majority of our government does anything they want, anyway; just twits like you, mostly.

And the best part is, we ALSO wouldn't keep accumulating more and more debt for non-productive, greedy dipshits like YOU to keep demanding that we "pay down".

You had the misfortune of being born into a democracy and falling into a minority cult. Bad choice on your part.

The country is fed up with spend and don't tax, war mongering, cheer on business at the trough, propaganda fed Republicans. You are just completely unaffordable in business, religion and government.
We don't need smaller government, just fewer Republicans screwing it up. And that's coming. Like a freight train.

You're fired.

 

[bripat9643]

Work the numbers. The present level of unemployment is caused by the consumption loss from all of those workers here who are now unemployed, less the excess government stimulation spending.

Wrong. It was caused by the government forcing banks to give mortgages to people who couldn't pay them. This created excess demand for housing that couldn't be supported economically. Economists call this "mal investment." Unemployment remains high as a result of Obama's systematic attempts to destroy the economy.



Totally wrong. American banks lost trillions of dollars on the government created housing bubble.

Is that a screwed up system or what?

Government is definitely screwed up. Of that there is no doubt. What's even more screwed up is the boot-licking drones who defend this behavior and attempt to blame innocent parties for the crimes of politicians.

I know that you are required to repeat Republican dogma but you are almost completely wrong. And today, most people know it.

But I know that you are unable to change and I'm unable to care about that. You can rant all of the ignorance you want and nothing will change.

Conservatism's era is dead of self inflicted wounds.

The voters of America know the truth, the real results and the real causes and your lies are unable to change any of that.

You will be recorded by history as a victim of democracy. Another victory for the American Way.

Your version of the "American way" has left a long trail of victims. You would think that someone who defends democracy wouldn't go around pointing out its victims. I thought democracy was supposed to be beneficial to people, not predatory.

 

[bripat9643]

sufficient to pay for government and to pay down debt.

Of course you can lower rates and the economy booms. But if you are not paying down debt or are in fact accumulating it, as Reagan was, it will eventually catch up to you.

Well, here's a thought, and stop me if you've heard this before: perhaps instead of taking huge amounts of people's earnings in order for taxes to be "sufficient to pay for government", we should stop having so damned much government to pay for. I say this particularly in light of the fact that relatively very few people think the vast majority of our government does anything they want, anyway; just twits like you, mostly.

And the best part is, we ALSO wouldn't keep accumulating more and more debt for non-productive, greedy dipshits like YOU to keep demanding that we "pay down".

You had the misfortune of being born into a democracy and falling into a minority cult. Bad choice on your part.

The country is fed up with spend and don't tax, war mongering, cheer on business at the trough, propaganda fed Republicans. You are just completely unaffordable in business, religion and government.
We don't need smaller government, just fewer Republicans screwing it up. And that's coming. Like a freight train.

You're fired.

I really get a kick out of your belief that Americans want to be taxed more. What could possibly be more hysterical? Even Obama didn't claim he was going to raise our taxes. That was a lie, of course.

 

[PMZ]

"Sufficient" for what? You have to be insane to believe high marginal rates are beneficial for the economy. You picked one period in history when the rest of the world had been bombed into the Stone Age as evidence that high marginal rates are good for the economy. Of course you are ignoring the fact that Hoover jacked up marginal rates to 75% during his administration, and FDR jacked them up to 90%. What was the result? 12 years of unemployment at over 17%.

When Kennedy lowered marginal rates to 70%, the economy boomed. When Reagan lowered them to 28%, the economy boomed even more. When Coolidge lowered them in the 20s, the economy boomed. Prior to 1916 we had no income tax, and the economy boomed from the Civil War to WW I.

There is no theory of economics that would advocate high marginal tax rates as a condition for economic growth.

sufficient to pay for government and to pay down debt.

Zero income tax is sufficient to pay for all the government I want.

Of course you can lower rates and the economy booms. But if you are not paying down debt or are in fact accumulating it, as Reagan was, it will eventually catch up to you.

The Dims in Congress are the ones who insisted on more spending, not Reagan.

Let's face it. You're a sniveling coward. If you want to live without government series, just do it. You don't have to spend the rest of your life whining. You don't have to spend the rest of your life paying taxes. You don't have to spend the rest of your life following laws. You don't have to spend the rest of your life living under government.

Go to Alaska. Buy a little hunk of land. Build a cabin. Hunt and gather. You'll have your dream world. And so will the rest of us.

Grow a pair and use them to solve your problems like a man.

 

[dcraelin]

sufficient to pay for government and to pay down debt.

Zero income tax is sufficient to pay for all the government I want.

Yeah thats just bluster

Of course you can lower rates and the economy booms. But if you are not paying down debt or are in fact accumulating it, as Reagan was, it will eventually catch up to you.

The Dims in Congress are the ones who insisted on more spending, not Reagan.

The power of the purse is with congress. Logically either you give them credit for the tax cuts and booming economy, or you give Reagan the blame for spending.

 

[PMZ]

They lucked out by being born here. Luck isn't free.

Even if you work your way up the ladder based on your talent, you're lucky to find a company that lets you do that instead of requiring you to sacrifice your personal life and personality by becoming a workoholic bootlicker, which has nothing to do with talent. Only 5% of the people find jobs that reward without crushing the individual. Of course, the Capitaliban preach that the Magic Market rewards practically all jobs rationally under their Greedhead utopia and luck has little to do with it. How can it be rational when it means mindless submission to uncontrollable outside forces?

Another example of luck is that unknowable outside factors create opportunities, making choices into blind guesses. Successful people mostly made their "right" choices purely by accident. A typical example I found out about in 1980 was someone who got into geology when it was just for professors, like anthropology. The oil business suddenly boomed and he became a millionaire, totally unexpectedly. The earliest computer millionaires were just hobbyists who had no idea their playthings would have much practical value.

On the opposite side, someone right after World War II could have plausibly predicted that helicopters would replace trucks and buses. Didn't happen, for reasons too complicated for anyone to understand except by hindsight.

LETS you?? LETS you?? Since when is it the company's responsibility to have you do things to advance??? Sacrifice IS what it is all about.. you may indeed have to sacrifice 'personal time', family time, money, effort, blood, sweat, tears, and tons of frustration.. but if you fucking want more, it is what you have to do

Suck it up and drive on, pussy

Certainly one thing the country has learned is that conservatives worship wealth. There is simply nothing they won't do for it.

It's pretty easy to see the consequences of giving people who value wealth over everything any responsibility for others. Any responsibility for anything.

It's easy to vote them out of government. Harder, but just as important, to not do business with them. They are toxic people.

 

[dcraelin]

sufficient to pay for government and to pay down debt.
Of course you can lower rates and the economy booms. But if you are not paying down debt or are in fact accumulating it, as Reagan was, it will eventually catch up to you.

Well, here's a thought, and stop me if you've heard this before: perhaps instead of taking huge amounts of people's earnings in order for taxes to be "sufficient to pay for government", we should stop having so damned much government to pay for. I say this particularly in light of the fact that relatively very few people think the vast majority of our government does anything they want, anyway; just twits like you, mostly.

And the best part is, we ALSO wouldn't keep accumulating more and more debt for non-productive, greedy dipshits like YOU to keep demanding that we "pay down".

yeah Ive heard it before, how was I to stop you?

I agree Our government is too big, but history shows no matter what party is in power it doesnt substantially get cut, So at least have a tax rate that balances the budget and pays down the debt.

If a person resorts to name calling they show they have lost the argument. How am I greedy for wanting a balanced budget?

 

[PMZ]

"Sufficient" for what? You have to be insane to believe high marginal rates are beneficial for the economy. You picked one period in history when the rest of the world had been bombed into the Stone Age as evidence that high marginal rates are good for the economy. Of course you are ignoring the fact that Hoover jacked up marginal rates to 75% during his administration, and FDR jacked them up to 90%. What was the result? 12 years of unemployment at over 17%.

When Kennedy lowered marginal rates to 70%, the economy boomed. When Reagan lowered them to 28%, the economy boomed even more. When Coolidge lowered them in the 20s, the economy boomed. Prior to 1916 we had no income tax, and the economy boomed from the Civil War to WW I.

There is no theory of economics that would advocate high marginal tax rates as a condition for economic growth.

sufficient to pay for government and to pay down debt.

Zero income tax is sufficient to pay for all the government I want.

Of course you can lower rates and the economy booms. But if you are not paying down debt or are in fact accumulating it, as Reagan was, it will eventually catch up to you.

The Dims in Congress are the ones who insisted on more spending, not Reagan.

Reagan slept through the whole thing. No President has done less. Even Bush worked once in awhile when we he wasn't in Crawford.

 

[bripat9643]

sufficient to pay for government and to pay down debt.

Zero income tax is sufficient to pay for all the government I want.

Of course you can lower rates and the economy booms. But if you are not paying down debt or are in fact accumulating it, as Reagan was, it will eventually catch up to you.

The Dims in Congress are the ones who insisted on more spending, not Reagan.

Let's face it. You're a sniveling coward. If you want to live without government series, just do it. You don't have to spend the rest of your life whining. You don't have to spend the rest of your life paying taxes. You don't have to spend the rest of your life following laws. You don't have to spend the rest of your life living under government.

Go to Alaska. Buy a little hunk of land. Build a cabin. Hunt and gather. You'll have your dream world. And so will the rest of us.

Grow a pair and use them to solve your problems like a man.

Speaking of sniveling cowards, asshole, you're the one who endorses communism. When are you moving to the socialist paradise you believe to be Utopia? When are you moving to Cuba where you can have all the socialist healthcare you can stomach and all that guaranteed socialist income and social programs?

You keep sniveling about greedy corporations and how they cause all the problems this country has, so when are you going to move where there are none? It's only 90 miles South of Florida. The weather is great. When are you packing your bags?

 

[bripat9643]

sufficient to pay for government and to pay down debt.

Zero income tax is sufficient to pay for all the government I want.

Of course you can lower rates and the economy booms. But if you are not paying down debt or are in fact accumulating it, as Reagan was, it will eventually catch up to you.

The Dims in Congress are the ones who insisted on more spending, not Reagan.

Reagan slept through the whole thing. No President has done less. Even Bush worked once in awhile when we he wasn't in Crawford.

Is it possible for you to tell the truth about anything? You're just one vast grab-bag of left-wing myths.

 

[bripat9643]

Even if you work your way up the ladder based on your talent, you're lucky to find a company that lets you do that instead of requiring you to sacrifice your personal life and personality by becoming a workoholic bootlicker, which has nothing to do with talent. Only 5% of the people find jobs that reward without crushing the individual. Of course, the Capitaliban preach that the Magic Market rewards practically all jobs rationally under their Greedhead utopia and luck has little to do with it. How can it be rational when it means mindless submission to uncontrollable outside forces?

Another example of luck is that unknowable outside factors create opportunities, making choices into blind guesses. Successful people mostly made their "right" choices purely by accident. A typical example I found out about in 1980 was someone who got into geology when it was just for professors, like anthropology. The oil business suddenly boomed and he became a millionaire, totally unexpectedly. The earliest computer millionaires were just hobbyists who had no idea their playthings would have much practical value.

On the opposite side, someone right after World War II could have plausibly predicted that helicopters would replace trucks and buses. Didn't happen, for reasons too complicated for anyone to understand except by hindsight.

LETS you?? LETS you?? Since when is it the company's responsibility to have you do things to advance??? Sacrifice IS what it is all about.. you may indeed have to sacrifice 'personal time', family time, money, effort, blood, sweat, tears, and tons of frustration.. but if you fucking want more, it is what you have to do

Suck it up and drive on, pussy

Certainly one thing the country has learned is that conservatives worship wealth. There is simply nothing they won't do for it.

If liberal turds like you aren't interested in wealth, then why do you keep asking for more of it? How about if we don't soil your pure hands and the government's hands with our dirty money?

It's pretty easy to see the consequences of giving people who value wealth over everything any responsibility for others. Any responsibility for anything.

Yes it is. that's why we need to kick those Dims out of office before they totally destroy this country.

It's easy to vote them out of government. Harder, but just as important, to not do business with them. They are toxic people.

Yes, it's hard to not do business with them since that would involve an exchange of . . . . wait for it . . . . MONEY!

What a witless baboon!

 

[bripat9643]

sufficient to pay for government and to pay down debt.

Zero income tax is sufficient to pay for all the government I want.

Yeah thats just bluster

No it's not. This country got along quite nicely for 150 years without an income tax.

Of course you can lower rates and the economy booms. But if you are not paying down debt or are in fact accumulating it, as Reagan was, it will eventually catch up to you.

The Dims in Congress are the ones who insisted on more spending, not Reagan.

The power of the purse is with congress. Logically either you give them credit for the tax cuts and booming economy, or you give Reagan the blame for spending.

Hey, I love your "heads I win, tails you lose" brand of logic.

 

[Gadawg73]

Even if you work your way up the ladder based on your talent, you're lucky to find a company that lets you do that instead of requiring you to sacrifice your personal life and personality by becoming a workoholic bootlicker, which has nothing to do with talent. Only 5% of the people find jobs that reward without crushing the individual. Of course, the Capitaliban preach that the Magic Market rewards practically all jobs rationally under their Greedhead utopia and luck has little to do with it. How can it be rational when it means mindless submission to uncontrollable outside forces?

Another example of luck is that unknowable outside factors create opportunities, making choices into blind guesses. Successful people mostly made their "right" choices purely by accident. A typical example I found out about in 1980 was someone who got into geology when it was just for professors, like anthropology. The oil business suddenly boomed and he became a millionaire, totally unexpectedly. The earliest computer millionaires were just hobbyists who had no idea their playthings would have much practical value.

On the opposite side, someone right after World War II could have plausibly predicted that helicopters would replace trucks and buses. Didn't happen, for reasons too complicated for anyone to understand except by hindsight.

LETS you?? LETS you?? Since when is it the company's responsibility to have you do things to advance??? Sacrifice IS what it is all about.. you may indeed have to sacrifice 'personal time', family time, money, effort, blood, sweat, tears, and tons of frustration.. but if you fucking want more, it is what you have to do

Suck it up and drive on, pussy

Certainly one thing the country has learned is that conservatives worship wealth. There is simply nothing they won't do for it.

It's pretty easy to see the consequences of giving people who value wealth over everything any responsibility for others. Any responsibility for anything.

It's easy to vote them out of government. Harder, but just as important, to not do business with them. They are toxic people.

You are the one that worships wealth.
The wealth earned by others that you want to steal from them.

 

[RKMBrown]

Work the numbers. The present level of unemployment is caused by the consumption loss from all of those workers here who are now unemployed, less the excess government stimulation spending.

Wrong. It was caused by the government forcing banks to give mortgages to people who couldn't pay them. This created excess demand for housing that couldn't be supported economically. Economists call this "mal investment." Unemployment remains high as a result of Obama's systematic attempts to destroy the economy.



Totally wrong. American banks lost trillions of dollars on the government created housing bubble.

Is that a screwed up system or what?

Government is definitely screwed up. Of that there is no doubt. What's even more screwed up is the boot-licking drones who defend this behavior and attempt to blame innocent parties for the crimes of politicians.

I know that you are required to repeat Republican dogma but you are almost completely wrong. And today, most people know it.

But I know that you are unable to change and I'm unable to care about that. You can rant all of the ignorance you want and nothing will change.

Conservatism's era is dead of self inflicted wounds.

The voters of America know the truth, the real results and the real causes and your lies are unable to change any of that.

You will be recorded by history as a victim of democracy. Another victory for the American Way.

PMZ you are way to partisan. There are just as many, if not more, democrats running large corporations as there are republicans. Look at all the quid-pro-quo going on by this administration. It's ridiculous.

 

[PMZ]

Wrong. It was caused by the government forcing banks to give mortgages to people who couldn't pay them. This created excess demand for housing that couldn't be supported economically. Economists call this "mal investment." Unemployment remains high as a result of Obama's systematic attempts to destroy the economy.



Totally wrong. American banks lost trillions of dollars on the government created housing bubble.



Government is definitely screwed up. Of that there is no doubt. What's even more screwed up is the boot-licking drones who defend this behavior and attempt to blame innocent parties for the crimes of politicians.

I know that you are required to repeat Republican dogma but you are almost completely wrong. And today, most people know it.

But I know that you are unable to change and I'm unable to care about that. You can rant all of the ignorance you want and nothing will change.

Conservatism's era is dead of self inflicted wounds.

The voters of America know the truth, the real results and the real causes and your lies are unable to change any of that.

You will be recorded by history as a victim of democracy. Another victory for the American Way.

PMZ you are way to partisan. There are just as many, if not more, democrats running large corporations as there are republicans. Look at all the quid-pro-quo going on by this administration. It's ridiculous.

I agree that that applies to both of us. But, I would add that people are people. Businesses and government draws from the same deck. In that deck are dueces and aces and mostly in betweens.

We get the most done when we work together.

I act like an extremeist as an example to tea party extremists who don't see that they are and why. It seems to get through to those whose minds are not completely closed.

Given all of that, I think that, in terms of achievement, Obama will go down in history as one of the best, Bush as one of the worst.

I am a product of the 50s when American government was regarded by Americans as the best in the world. It wasn't, of course, but I'm hooked on that attitude.

 

[RKMBrown]

I know that you are required to repeat Republican dogma but you are almost completely wrong. And today, most people know it.

But I know that you are unable to change and I'm unable to care about that. You can rant all of the ignorance you want and nothing will change.

Conservatism's era is dead of self inflicted wounds.

The voters of America know the truth, the real results and the real causes and your lies are unable to change any of that.

You will be recorded by history as a victim of democracy. Another victory for the American Way.

PMZ you are way to partisan. There are just as many, if not more, democrats running large corporations as there are republicans. Look at all the quid-pro-quo going on by this administration. It's ridiculous.

I agree that that applies to both of us. But, I would add that people are people. Businesses and government draws from the same deck. In that deck are dueces and aces and mostly in betweens.

We get the most done when we work together.

I act like an extremeist as an example to tea party extremists who don't see that they are and why. It seems to get through to those whose minds are not completely closed.

Given all of that, I think that, in terms of achievement, Obama will go down in history as one of the best, Bush as one of the worst.

I am a product of the 50s when American government was regarded by Americans as the best in the world. It wasn't, of course, but I'm hooked on that attitude.

The question isn't should we work together or not the question is what should we work toward. If working toward a society where no one works and no one gives a shit because no matter what they do or how hard they try the majority of the country will screw them over, well that plan just won't cut meat with me. I have no desire to live in the country you are screaming for, as an extremist in disguise, where freedom is a thing of the past and we get retaliation on the 49% for being more successful than the 51%.

Assuming government workers are better and more trustworthy than non-government workers is a gross fallacy. Assuming the government is gonna spend your income more carefully than you would is a joke. Handing out freebies as a bonus for not working hard by taking money from workers is a policy proven to fail throughout history. Even the communists have given up socialism for capitalism.

 

[PMZ]

PMZ you are way to partisan. There are just as many, if not more, democrats running large corporations as there are republicans. Look at all the quid-pro-quo going on by this administration. It's ridiculous.

I agree that that applies to both of us. But, I would add that people are people. Businesses and government draws from the same deck. In that deck are dueces and aces and mostly in betweens.

We get the most done when we work together.

I act like an extremeist as an example to tea party extremists who don't see that they are and why. It seems to get through to those whose minds are not completely closed.

Given all of that, I think that, in terms of achievement, Obama will go down in history as one of the best, Bush as one of the worst.

I am a product of the 50s when American government was regarded by Americans as the best in the world. It wasn't, of course, but I'm hooked on that attitude.

The question isn't should we work together or not the question is what should we work toward. If working toward a society where no one works and no one gives a shit because no matter what they do or how hard they try the majority of the country will screw them over, well that plan just won't cut meat with me. I have no desire to live in the country you are screaming for, as an extremist in disguise, where freedom is a thing of the past and we get retaliation on the 49% for being more successful than the 51%.

Assuming government workers are better and more trustworthy than non-government workers is a gross fallacy. Assuming the government is gonna spend your income more carefully than you would is a joke. Handing out freebies as a bonus for not working hard by taking money from workers is a policy proven to fail throughout history. Even the communists have given up socialism for capitalism.

" The question isn't should we work together or not the question is what should we work toward."

How about adequate but not excessive pay for everyone capable of producing wealth?

" Assuming government workers are better and more trustworthy than non-government workers is a gross fallacy."

No evidence. It's another thing that would be convenient to what you wish to be true.

Capitalism is only made productive by competition.

Government services are always less expensive and better where competition can't be maintained.

Your insistence that we eliminate screws because all you have is a hammer is not a solution to anything.