[POLL] - Liberals, how much is a "fair share?" - Taxes

[PMZ]

Nobody said they didn't package some of the flippers loans. Like all free market enterprises, they acted in concert with the free market. Fannie and Freddie didn't cause the crash.

Nor does Freddie and Fannie, as you claim, transfer the risk to the taxpayer. You are oblivious. The were simply a free market enterprise that got caught up in the free market bubble like all the free market lending banks did.

BTW; your Cato article is simple BS, drawing on the same faulty premise that has been demonstrated as wrong. It was specifically flippers that defaulted and took the market down, not subprime mortgages as a whole.

The fundamental workings of propaganda is that the people who all got it from the common source reinforce it to each other.

Yep, and you and idgitme are regurgitating self-serving Federal Reserve propaganda.

How about breaking your record streak and posting some evidence that what you wish to be is actually true?

 

[bripat9643]

The fundamental workings of propaganda is that the people who all got it from the common source reinforce it to each other.

Yep, and you and idgitme are regurgitating self-serving Federal Reserve propaganda.

How about breaking your record streak and posting some evidence that what you wish to be is actually true?

I already posted the report from the CATO Institute. it's loaded with all manner of statistics about the mortgage market prior to 2008

 

[Gadawg73]

You're the one ignoring the facts. Fannie May and Freddie Mac purchased large numbers of these bad mortgages.

Fannie, Freddie, and the Subprime Mortgage Market | Cato Institute

Changes in the mortgage market, resulting largely from misguided monetary policy, drove a frenzy of refinancing activity in 2003. When that origination boom died out, mortgage industry participants looked elsewhere for profits. Fannie and Freddie, among others, found those illusionary profits in lowering credit quality.

Foremost among the government-sponsored enterprises’ deleterious activities was their vast direct purchases of loans that can only be characterized as subprime. Under reasonable definitions of subprime, almost 30 percent of Fannie and Freddie direct purchases could be considered subprime.

The government-sponsored enterprises were also the largest single investor in subprime private label mortgage-backed securities. During the height of the housing bubble, almost 40 percent of newly issued private-label subprime securities were purchased by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

In order to protect both the taxpayer and our broader economy, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac should be abolished, along with other policies that transfer the risk of mortgage default from the lender to the taxpayer.​

Nobody said they didn't package some of the flippers loans. Like all free market enterprises, they acted in concert with the free market. Fannie and Freddie didn't cause the crash.

Nor does Freddie and Fannie, as you claim, transfer the risk to the taxpayer. You are oblivious. The were simply a free market enterprise that got caught up in the free market bubble like all the free market lending banks did.

BTW; your Cato article is simple BS, drawing on the same faulty premise that has been demonstrated as wrong. It was specifically flippers that defaulted and took the market down, not subprime mortgages as a whole.

Oh puhleeze. The claim that only flipper loans went South is too stupid to even respond to. Even if that were true, the flipper loans were only made possible by government policy that forced banks to grant no-doc loans, no money down loans and other high risk lending vehicles.

Fannie and Freddie are not "simple free market enterprises." They are government institutions carrying out government policy masquerading as market enterprises. Loans guaranteed by Fannie and Freddie are generally viewed as risk proof by investors, so these loans were incorporated into mortgage backed securities and sold at a premium.

Government had its hand in this disaster at every point. There's no doubt that government caused the crises. Lenders and investors only followed the cues and regulations that government was giving off.

Government has been the cause of virtually every financial panic this country ever had. Why should anyone believe the resent one is an exception?

Totally agree but where were the banks screaming when all of this was going down?
Government followed by banks, mortgage institutions, appraisal companies, Wall Street and phony rating services all were in it together.
And no one said a word.

 

[Gadawg73]

Government contributed to the problem and lack of government caused it to go on as long as it did.

 

[bripat9643]

Nobody said they didn't package some of the flippers loans. Like all free market enterprises, they acted in concert with the free market. Fannie and Freddie didn't cause the crash.

Nor does Freddie and Fannie, as you claim, transfer the risk to the taxpayer. You are oblivious. The were simply a free market enterprise that got caught up in the free market bubble like all the free market lending banks did.

BTW; your Cato article is simple BS, drawing on the same faulty premise that has been demonstrated as wrong. It was specifically flippers that defaulted and took the market down, not subprime mortgages as a whole.

Oh puhleeze. The claim that only flipper loans went South is too stupid to even respond to. Even if that were true, the flipper loans were only made possible by government policy that forced banks to grant no-doc loans, no money down loans and other high risk lending vehicles.

Fannie and Freddie are not "simple free market enterprises." They are government institutions carrying out government policy masquerading as market enterprises. Loans guaranteed by Fannie and Freddie are generally viewed as risk proof by investors, so these loans were incorporated into mortgage backed securities and sold at a premium.

Government had its hand in this disaster at every point. There's no doubt that government caused the crises. Lenders and investors only followed the cues and regulations that government was giving off.

Government has been the cause of virtually every financial panic this country ever had. Why should anyone believe the resent one is an exception?

Totally agree but where were the banks screaming when all of this was going down?
Government followed by banks, mortgage institutions, appraisal companies, Wall Street and phony rating services all were in it together.
And no one said a word.

Banks have been totally co-opted by the government. They are practically branches of the government. the same goes for big Well Street firms like Morgan Stanley.

 

[ShawnChris13]

The government created institutions that didn't have to follow the same rules as free market institutions and let them run wild with no oversight. Government hardly ever places qualified people in positions requiring market expertise and then blame the market for the failures of the institutions they created. Bailing out the market after the problems the government created institutions created is proof in itself that the government realized its previous errors and then allowed corporations to use the bailout money for bonuses and concerts.

 

[bripat9643]

Government contributed to the problem and lack of government caused it to go on as long as it did.

You mean regulators deliberately turning a blind eye to the problem because of pressure from the Clinton Administration caused it to go on as long as it did.

 

[itfitzme]

Yep, and you and idgitme are regurgitating self-serving Federal Reserve propaganda.

How about breaking your record streak and posting some evidence that what you wish to be is actually true?

I already posted the report from the CATO Institute. it's loaded with all manner of statistics about the mortgage market prior to 2008

Sure, except that it doesn't have any way to differentiate the buyers of houses in the subprime market, specifically, the status of the purchasers that actually defaulted on their loans. Nor can they say were the subprime defaults occured, for Freddie and Fannie predominately or the remainder of the markets. Their interpretation can be boiled down to

a) There were subprime motgages.
b) All mortgage lenders had subprime loans.
c) Some subprime loans defaulted.

Ergo....faulty conclusion that it was specifically the purchases of freddie and fannie subprime mortages to owner occupied homes that caused the crash.

They have no evidence of it being specifically freddie and fannie MBS packaged, owner occupied homes that precipitated the market crash.

The singular fact remains that it was the investment flipping market that precipitated the crash.

The question isn't whether Freddie and Fannie are part of the market. Of course they are part of the market. The question is what precipitated the crash.

You should avoid reading "studies" by the Cato Institute because they reach faulty conclusions even on their best data.

BTW; the Cato Institute article begins with "Liberal pundits".... a term that clearly presents their bias. In examining economic data and reaching sound conclusions, there is simply no reason for using the term "Liberal pundits" as it adds absolutely nothing to the research. What "Liberal pundits" have to say is irrelevant to the quality of mortgage backed securities.

 

[PMZ]

The government created institutions that didn't have to follow the same rules as free market institutions and let them run wild with no oversight. Government hardly ever places qualified people in positions requiring market expertise and then blame the market for the failures of the institutions they created. Bailing out the market after the problems the government created institutions created is proof in itself that the government realized its previous errors and then allowed corporations to use the bailout money for bonuses and concerts.

"Government hardly ever places qualified people in positions requiring market expertise"

Is this what Fox Opinions "reported"?

What evidence did they pass along with it?

 

[itfitzme]

The government created institutions that didn't have to follow the same rules as free market institutions and let them run wild with no oversight. Government hardly ever places qualified people in positions requiring market expertise and then blame the market for the failures of the institutions they created. Bailing out the market after the problems the government created institutions created is proof in itself that the government realized its previous errors and then allowed corporations to use the bailout money for bonuses and concerts.

Nice unqualified opinion.

 

[ShawnChris13]

The government created institutions that didn't have to follow the same rules as free market institutions and let them run wild with no oversight. Government hardly ever places qualified people in positions requiring market expertise and then blame the market for the failures of the institutions they created. Bailing out the market after the problems the government created institutions created is proof in itself that the government realized its previous errors and then allowed corporations to use the bailout money for bonuses and concerts.

"Government hardly ever places qualified people in positions requiring market expertise"

Is this what Fox Opinions "reported"?

What evidence did they pass along with it?

Here's an example for you: healthcare.gov

Really qualified people building a website for three years spending more than anyone else to write code that doesn't work. I only place out general facts that don't need sourcing because they're obviously and unequivocally true. Go talk to a communications officer on a ship and tell me they're qualified for that. They aren't.

 

[PMZ]

The government created institutions that didn't have to follow the same rules as free market institutions and let them run wild with no oversight. Government hardly ever places qualified people in positions requiring market expertise and then blame the market for the failures of the institutions they created. Bailing out the market after the problems the government created institutions created is proof in itself that the government realized its previous errors and then allowed corporations to use the bailout money for bonuses and concerts.

"Government hardly ever places qualified people in positions requiring market expertise"

Is this what Fox Opinions "reported"?

What evidence did they pass along with it?

Here's an example for you: healthcare.gov

Really qualified people building a website for three years spending more than anyone else to write code that doesn't work. I only place out general facts that don't need sourcing because they're obviously and unequivocally true. Go talk to a communications officer on a ship and tell me they're qualified for that. They aren't.

Healthcare. gov is working fine. Only the Fox Opinions addicts who have not used it think otherwise. Not to mention the telephone option is available for those who need more help.

I use Medicare.gov which does much the same and has for years.

 

[Indeependent]

It always amazes me how some folk espouse the wonders of ths free market, calling for liberty and freedom, then complaining bitterly when the free market fails to live up to expectation and blaming that failure on thw government.

a) Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae were private enterprise entities.
b) Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae were, like all free market enterprises, price takers and market followers
c) The recession was precipitated by 1) Flippers, housing investors, that obtained low doc/no doc loans and walked away when thei ROI failed to mee expectations and 2) the deceleration of consumer credit as a whole.
d) The effects of flippers propogated up the money supply chain as MBSs tanked and CDS came due all at once.

The entire process was a systematic free market systematic failure as reasonably appropriate market expectations based on past market performance failed to pan out. The recession was, at its core, caused by the free market failing to meet its expectiom of randomness.

You and PMZ have GOT to learn never to let FACTS get in the way of ideology.

Where's your evidence that I don't?

That, my friend, was sarcasm directed towards those who refuse to see the fact that YOU guys are presenting actual facts and not ideological CATO articles.

 

[Indeependent]

Simply put, Mortgage Brokers and Bankers were required to use software.
They didn't use the software and took advantage of the eventual bail-out.
That's right, the private industry knew well in advance that they would be bailed out.

 

[ShawnChris13]

"Government hardly ever places qualified people in positions requiring market expertise"

Is this what Fox Opinions "reported"?

What evidence did they pass along with it?

Here's an example for you: healthcare.gov

Really qualified people building a website for three years spending more than anyone else to write code that doesn't work. I only place out general facts that don't need sourcing because they're obviously and unequivocally true. Go talk to a communications officer on a ship and tell me they're qualified for that. They aren't.

Healthcare. gov is working fine. Only the Fox Opinions addicts who have not used it think otherwise. Not to mention the telephone option is available for those who need more help.

I use Medicare.gov which does much the same and has for years.

You obviously are only qualified to type. If you think healthcare.gov is working the way it should then you know that computers turn on and off. And little else.

Telephone option argument is a deflection and holds no water.

Medicare.gov also had a bad rollout further proving my point.

Government does a lot without having people who know what they're doing do it and they will only continue to do so.

 

[PMZ]

Here's an example for you: healthcare.gov

Really qualified people building a website for three years spending more than anyone else to write code that doesn't work. I only place out general facts that don't need sourcing because they're obviously and unequivocally true. Go talk to a communications officer on a ship and tell me they're qualified for that. They aren't.

Healthcare. gov is working fine. Only the Fox Opinions addicts who have not used it think otherwise. Not to mention the telephone option is available for those who need more help.

I use Medicare.gov which does much the same and has for years.

You obviously are only qualified to type. If you think healthcare.gov is working the way it should then you know that computers turn on and off. And little else.

Telephone option argument is a deflection and holds no water.

Medicare.gov also had a bad rollout further proving my point.

Government does a lot without having people who know what they're doing do it and they will only continue to do so.

You too live in the Fox Fantasy.

Enjoy it, but please don't vote. You are too ill-informed.

 

[ShawnChris13]

Healthcare. gov is working fine. Only the Fox Opinions addicts who have not used it think otherwise. Not to mention the telephone option is available for those who need more help.

I use Medicare.gov which does much the same and has for years.

You obviously are only qualified to type. If you think healthcare.gov is working the way it should then you know that computers turn on and off. And little else.

Telephone option argument is a deflection and holds no water.

Medicare.gov also had a bad rollout further proving my point.

Government does a lot without having people who know what they're doing do it and they will only continue to do so.

You too live in the Fox Fantasy.

Enjoy it, but please don't vote. You are too ill-informed.

Yeah I'm definitely not a republican. I just know more about how the government works in real life than you apparently do. Also more about computers.

You accuse me of being ill informed yet can offer no refuting arguments to simple ideas I put out. I would love to see you refute points from people who deal with more specific arguments.

 

[bripat9643]

"Government hardly ever places qualified people in positions requiring market expertise"

Is this what Fox Opinions "reported"?

What evidence did they pass along with it?

Here's an example for you: healthcare.gov

Really qualified people building a website for three years spending more than anyone else to write code that doesn't work. I only place out general facts that don't need sourcing because they're obviously and unequivocally true. Go talk to a communications officer on a ship and tell me they're qualified for that. They aren't.

Healthcare. gov is working fine.

BWHAHAHAHA!!!

Man, you sure are funny!

 

[bripat9643]

You and PMZ have GOT to learn never to let FACTS get in the way of ideology.

Where's your evidence that I don't?

That, my friend, was sarcasm directed towards those who refuse to see the fact that YOU guys are presenting actual facts and not ideological CATO articles.

They're posting government propaganda. What makes CATO any more "ideological" than the Federal Reserve? The paper from CATO includes all the supporting FACTS.

 

[johnwk]

Technology development is a risky business. Too risky for business. When all is said and done, and the pioneers have taken the risk, there will be huge winners and many losers. But the winners will repower the world. And save the world from the dregs of fossil fuels.

Thank you for posting your platitudes but they do not address or justify the unconstitutionality of taxing the working person’s earned wages and transferring them to a privileged group of businesses to develop “green energy” technology. As a matter of fact our founders were very specific in our federal government’s role in the advancement of science and promoting valuable inventions as pointed out by Representative John Page speaking before the House of Representatives:

"The framers of the Constitution guarded so much against a possibility of such partial preferences as might be given, if Congress had the right to grant them, that, even to encourage learning and useful arts, the granting of patents is the extent of their power. And surely nothing could be less dangerous to the sovereignty or interest of the individual States than the encouragement which might be given to ingenious inventors or promoters of valuable inventions in the arts and sciences. The encouragement which the General Government might give to the fine arts, to commerce, to manufactures, and agriculture, might, if judiciously applied, redound to the honor of Congress, and the splendor, magnificence, and real advantage of the United States; but the wise framers of our Constitution saw that, if Congress had the power of exerting what has been called a royal munificence for these purposes, Congress might, like many royal benefactors, misplace their munificence; might elevate sycophants, and be inattentive to men unfriendly to the views of Government; might reward the ingenuity of the citizens of one State, and neglect a much greater genius of another. A citizen of a powerful State it might be said, was attended to, whilst that of one of less weight in the Federal scale was totally neglected. It is not sufficient, to remove these objections, to say, as some gentlemen have said, that Congress in incapable of partiality or absurdities, and that they are as far from committing them as my colleagues or myself. I tell them the Constitution was formed on a supposition of human frailty, and to restrain abuses of mistaken powers.” Annals of Congress Feb 7th,1792

Why do you support such tyranny which robs the working person earned wage?

JWK

"To lay with one hand the power of the government on the property of the citizen and with the other to bestow upon favored individuals, to aid private enterprises and build up private fortunes [Obama’s Solyndra, Chevy Volt, Fisker, Exelon swindling deals] is none the less a robbery because it is done under forms of law and called taxation." ____ Savings and Loan Assc. v. Topeka,(1875).

Our Founders had no knowledge of green energy.

But they did have knowledge of the benefits of a free market system, a limited federal government, and this is why they limited our federal government’s authority over the advancement of science as follows:

Congress shall have power To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries

Our founders desire to create a free market system and limit the federal government’s authority in it proved to be a wise decision, e.g., by the year 1835, America was manufacturing everything from steam powered ships, to clothing spun and woven by powered machinery and the national debt [which included part of the revolutionary war debt] was completely extinguished and Congress enjoyed a surplus in the federal treasury from tariffs, duties, and customs. And so, by an Act of Congress in June of 1836 all surplus revenue in excess of $ 5,000,000 was decided to be distributed among the states, and eventually a total of $28,000,000 was distributed among the states by the rule of apportionment in the nature of interest free loans to the states to be recalled if and when Congress decided to make such a recall.

Why do you ignore the written words of our constitution as they apply to our federal government promoting the advancement of science?

JWK


"To lay with one hand the power of the government on the property of the citizen and with the other to bestow upon favored individuals, to aid private enterprises and build up private fortunes [Obama’s Solyndra, Chevy Volt, Fisker, Exelon swindling deals] is none the less a robbery because it is done under forms of law and called taxation." ____ Savings and Loan Assc. v. Topeka,(1875).