Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?

[Alter2Ego]

Or all the people who have died from horrible diseases for nothing. Unless God is trying to kill us with precision.

ALTER2EGO -to- OOH POO PAH DOO & DR.DROCK:

QUESTION: Who was it that caused animals to become extinct by killing off the creatures for sport, polluting the land and the animals' environment, chopped down trees the animals relied upon, spilled oil in the ocean and killed of fish and birds, etc.?

ANSWER: Rebellious humans who have no respect for God's laws.

Who's law was it that gave man dominion over the animals?

ALTER2EGO -to- CODE1211:

God told Adam to take care of the animals. He didn't say a word about destroying animal habitat and killing off animals for sport. The fact that God instructed Noah to preserve the lives of the various species of animals by taking a sample of each kind onto the ark is clear evidence that God never intended for humans to wipe out animal life. So I don't know what you're getting at by mentioning man's dominion over the animals.

Left to themselves, humans would destroy all of mankind with their stockpile of nuclear armaments. That's how destructive humans have become and that's why the Bible says Jehovah will intervene and end this madness by "bringing to ruin those ruining the earth.")

"But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give their reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth." (Revelation 11:18)

 

[Alter2Ego]

In my never-to-be-considered humble opinion, there are mysteries and 'whys' and 'what ifs' that exist in all aspects of nature, our planet, our galaxy, our universe that will never be explained by us or human scientists. I don't think we iknow all there is to know about anything and probably never well. I am 100% certain that we have a teensy fraction of the scientific knowledge that there is yet to be had. So anybody who says we have anything all figured out is, in my opinion, quite naive.

Having said that, when you look at organisms or ecosystems that are so utterly perfect in design and function, for most of us it is very difficult to discount some form of intelligence being behind it. And of course there is strong evidence for the theory of evolution, but who is to say that is not included in and part of that larger intelligence?

I believe in God and therefore accept that as the source of the intelligence, but even the Atheist can accept a concept of intelligent design. Einstein did not believe in a personal deity or a concept such as God. But he refused to be labeled 'Atheist" too as he embraced Spinoza's observations of a universe so complex and diverse with components of such utter beauty and perfection, that he rationally saw some kind of cosmic intelligence guiding the process throughout.

Well said. Sadly, the atheists that are posting in this thread believe in the evolution myth and the Big Bang myth. According to both of these myths, precision resulted from an endless string of spontaneous events aka accidents, during which one event after the other happened at the right place and at the right time--resulting in a perfectly ordered universe.

 

[Alter2Ego]

I have always found it interesting that many people take a stance of either science or religion when it was never intended to be opposing. They compliment each other but most can not see the connection let alone accept them both together. I see the moon and say wow isn't god awesome only he can reach that high. Science point of view does not take that but instead ponders its substance and how it got there instead of accepting that it is and appreciate the magnifacent thing it is and be thankful.

ALTER2EGO -to- TRINITY POWER:

Well said. Of course I'm sure you realize that the evolution myth and the Big Bang myth are attempts by rebellious humans to make God disappear. Yet, with all their theorizing and empty ideas, none of them can explain how life came from non-life and how thousands of planets appeared in the heavens, each with their own gravitational pull that keeps them within their own orbit. They have no explanation, because these things are so precise that they point directly to an intelligent Designer/God. But of course you and I know that those that are determined to rebel against their Creator (atheists) will never give credit to Jehovah--not even for their own existence.

Such ingrates.

 

[code1211]

If my bible is the truth man diid see God. Historian Josephus ,wrote about Jesus and mentioned miracles that were witnessed by others.

Moses saw God,Lot saw God.

That is one of the most important tenets of the scientific method is to be able to observe.

With respect:

The Synoptic Gospels while all in general agreement were written starting about a 100 years after Jesus' death.

The Old Testement stories are not a reliable history. If anything, it is a single point of view PR piece by a roving tribe in a hostile world.

If you are to produce proof of the level that you demand of the other side, you have some producing to do.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information but the gospel were written between 40 and 70 years after Jesus died on the cross. The ot is very reliable,so reliable communities are being discovered by archaeologist because of the ot.

Also because of the Illiad and the Odessey.

I'm not saying that there is not some truth in what was written. It just seems a tad one-sided in who are the heroes and who are the villains.

 

[code1211]

If my bible is the truth man diid see God. Historian Josephus ,wrote about Jesus and mentioned miracles that were witnessed by others.

Moses saw God,Lot saw God.

That is one of the most important tenets of the scientific method is to be able to observe.

With respect:

The Synoptic Gospels while all in general agreement were written starting about a 100 years after Jesus' death.

The Old Testement stories are not a reliable history. If anything, it is a single point of view PR piece by a roving tribe in a hostile world.

If you are to produce proof of the level that you demand of the other side, you have some producing to do.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information but the gospel were written between 40 and 70 years after Jesus died on the cross. The ot is very reliable,so reliable communities are being discovered by archaeologist because of the ot.

Let's use the 40 year figure.

Now compare that the Trayvon Martin case for finding the truth in eye witness testimony and the accuracy of the remembrances of those who listened to what they heard.

We're working with a few weeks of stories relayed from zealots and they seem to have editorialized liberally in a few weeks.

After 40 years, do you suppose the the accuracy is perfect in a journalistic sense.

You're welcome to your own opinion on this.

 

[code1211]

No that was punishment for eves sin he did not kill her but he did punisher her. Are we wrong to punish criminals ?

Again, Eve was designed prior to the sin.

Yep,but she committed the first sin.

You assert that the design defect was designed in prior to the sin as punishment for something that had not yet occurred?

 

[code1211]

You bred a hybrid and that didn't answer my question.

You can't crossbreed two different famlies and get a hybrid,why ?

Besides most organisms breed to their own kind.

Why do most organisms stay with their own kind even their own breed ?

Have you noticed that most animals that have been domesticated by man do not stick to their own breed but they do stick with their own families.

Whoa big fellow.

You said that there could not be a different product as the result of breeding. There both can be and are.

That is a virtually instant example. Our specific species is changing all the time. I'm 6-2. The best examples of men from the middle ages were about 5-7. Suits of armor, doncha know.

Producing a change on the order that the horse, mule and donkey reveal is a demonstration of what can happen in a single generation. Across generations, if only half of one percent of the offspring's characters changed per generation, that would would produce a new species in just 200 generations.

We are discussing changes across millions of generations.

You believe a staff can instantly turn into a snake but a dinosaur could not evolve into a bird given 200 million years to evolve?

Do you place other limits on the abilities of the Designer?

whoa big fella that is not what I said. I said do you know of any organism giving birth to an offspring not of the same kind meaning family. Are the donkey horse and mule of the same family. Some of the diversity we see could have come from cross breeding. But your theory calls for these changes to come from mutations. Not only that a mule was the product of man like many breeds from dogs ,horses, virtually all livestock. What I asked for was do you know of one family giving birth to a different family ?

I see...

So very similar does not reflect anything that is not within your belief system.

Like a chimpanzee and a man.

Got it.

 

[Dr Grump]

In my never-to-be-considered humble opinion, there are mysteries and 'whys' and 'what ifs' that exist in all aspects of nature, our planet, our galaxy, our universe that will never be explained by us or human scientists. I don't think we iknow all there is to know about anything and probably never well. I am 100% certain that we have a teensy fraction of the scientific knowledge that there is yet to be had. So anybody who says we have anything all figured out is, in my opinion, quite naive.

Having said that, when you look at organisms or ecosystems that are so utterly perfect in design and function, for most of us it is very difficult to discount some form of intelligence being behind it. And of course there is strong evidence for the theory of evolution, but who is to say that is not included in and part of that larger intelligence?

I believe in God and therefore accept that as the source of the intelligence, but even the Atheist can accept a concept of intelligent design. Einstein did not believe in a personal deity or a concept such as God. But he refused to be labeled 'Atheist" too as he embraced Spinoza's observations of a universe so complex and diverse with components of such utter beauty and perfection, that he rationally saw some kind of cosmic intelligence guiding the process throughout.

Well said. Sadly, the atheists that are posting in this thread believe in the evolution myth and the Big Bang myth. According to both of these myths, precision resulted from an endless string of spontaneous events aka accidents, during which one event after the other happened at the right place and at the right time--resulting in a perfectly ordered universe.]

And yet you believe in the god myth.

There are many things in science that are varifiable.

Nothing if varifiable as far as there being a god - only one's belief.

There is more evidence with regard to evoluation and the big bang than there is of any type of god...shrug...

 

[konradv]

I haven't seen you present a shred of evidence from human scientists explaining why people grow old and die. You can't present any because there is none. Scientists confess they cannot understand why people die when the body clearly has the ability to rejuvenate itself.

Telomeres

 

[Youwerecreated]

Human sin (beginning with the rebellion of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden) did indeed bring about imperfect conditions. But that is with reference to life on earth among humans and other life forms. It had nothing to do with the literal earth.

scientific evidence

I need science to back what I'm saying, please play by the same rules or stop disputing science if you don't take it seriously anyways.

ALTER2EGO to- DR.DROCK:

I haven't seen you present a shred of evidence from human scientists explaining why people grow old and die. You can't present any because there is none. Scientists confess they cannot understand why people die when the body clearly has the ability to rejuvenate itself.

You keep demanding scientific evidence. God is above science. Let's see you present some of the science that you insist knows all. Put your money where your mouth is.

Doc don't do that sort of thing, he mainly uses wiki and the fringe on such issues.

 

[Youwerecreated]

With respect:

The Synoptic Gospels while all in general agreement were written starting about a 100 years after Jesus' death.

The Old Testement stories are not a reliable history. If anything, it is a single point of view PR piece by a roving tribe in a hostile world.

If you are to produce proof of the level that you demand of the other side, you have some producing to do.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information but the gospel were written between 40 and 70 years after Jesus died on the cross. The ot is very reliable,so reliable communities are being discovered by archaeologist because of the ot.

Also because of the Illiad and the Odessey.

I'm not saying that there is not some truth in what was written. It just seems a tad one-sided in who are the heroes and who are the villains.

Well there are definite statements in the bible to confirm that it had to be inspired by a higher power. Some of the things written man dis not have the ability to know such things . If people read from the scriptures and give it a chance they would see the brilliance of our creator and how much his creations really mean to him.

 

[Youwerecreated]

With respect:

The Synoptic Gospels while all in general agreement were written starting about a 100 years after Jesus' death.

The Old Testement stories are not a reliable history. If anything, it is a single point of view PR piece by a roving tribe in a hostile world.

If you are to produce proof of the level that you demand of the other side, you have some producing to do.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information but the gospel were written between 40 and 70 years after Jesus died on the cross. The ot is very reliable,so reliable communities are being discovered by archaeologist because of the ot.

Let's use the 40 year figure.

Now compare that the Trayvon Martin case for finding the truth in eye witness testimony and the accuracy of the remembrances of those who listened to what they heard.

We're working with a few weeks of stories relayed from zealots and they seem to have editorialized liberally in a few weeks.

After 40 years, do you suppose the the accuracy is perfect in a journalistic sense.

You're welcome to your own opinion on this.

Yes the writings are reliable because they were inspired by God. So it doesn't really matter when they were written.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Again, Eve was designed prior to the sin.

Yep,but she committed the first sin.

You assert that the design defect was designed in prior to the sin as punishment for something that had not yet occurred?

The curse God put on eve was after she was created before she had offspring the curse that caused Adam and eve to grow old and died spread through her offspring. The aging process began when Adam and eve sinned.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Whoa big fellow.

You said that there could not be a different product as the result of breeding. There both can be and are.

That is a virtually instant example. Our specific species is changing all the time. I'm 6-2. The best examples of men from the middle ages were about 5-7. Suits of armor, doncha know.

Producing a change on the order that the horse, mule and donkey reveal is a demonstration of what can happen in a single generation. Across generations, if only half of one percent of the offspring's characters changed per generation, that would would produce a new species in just 200 generations.

We are discussing changes across millions of generations.

You believe a staff can instantly turn into a snake but a dinosaur could not evolve into a bird given 200 million years to evolve?

Do you place other limits on the abilities of the Designer?

whoa big fella that is not what I said. I said do you know of any organism giving birth to an offspring not of the same kind meaning family. Are the donkey horse and mule of the same family. Some of the diversity we see could have come from cross breeding. But your theory calls for these changes to come from mutations. Not only that a mule was the product of man like many breeds from dogs ,horses, virtually all livestock. What I asked for was do you know of one family giving birth to a different family ?

I see...

So very similar does not reflect anything that is not within your belief system.

Like a chimpanzee and a man.

Got it.

while there is similarity between humans and chimps but there is a vast difference in the genetic information. The human is made up of 4 billion base pairs of Dna with a 5% difference between humans and chimps that is 200 hundred million base pairs of Dna difference.That is what we know of. what they don't tell you as they study the genome they keep finding more differences.by the normal rate of mutations that occur man has not been on the planet long enough to Eco enough beneficial mutations for humans to evolve from any apelike creature. fact is when I ask for someone from your side to point out beneficial mutations they can't name very many. but harmful mutations are at 5,000 that cause deformity and or disease and growing. That was my job for years to study mutations in flies mutations caused more harm then good.

 

[Youwerecreated]

I haven't seen you present a shred of evidence from human scientists explaining why people grow old and die. You can't present any because there is none. Scientists confess they cannot understand why people die when the body clearly has the ability to rejuvenate itself.

Telomeres

Explain please. But I do believe God started our aging process through our genes and lost information in mutations. Mutations come at a loss of the original information

 

[Youwerecreated]

Why I believe as I do is because the flies that experienced mutations whether it caused change or no change at all caused flies to die ,they did not live to the average lifespan of flies that didn't experience mutations.

 

[code1211]

I'm not sure where you are getting your information but the gospel were written between 40 and 70 years after Jesus died on the cross. The ot is very reliable,so reliable communities are being discovered by archaeologist because of the ot.

Let's use the 40 year figure.

Now compare that the Trayvon Martin case for finding the truth in eye witness testimony and the accuracy of the remembrances of those who listened to what they heard.

We're working with a few weeks of stories relayed from zealots and they seem to have editorialized liberally in a few weeks.

After 40 years, do you suppose the the accuracy is perfect in a journalistic sense.

You're welcome to your own opinion on this.

Yes the writings are reliable because they were inspired by God. So it doesn't really matter when they were written.

This is not a provable thing. Again, you cannot use faith as proof in a discussion of science and logic.

 

[code1211]

Yep,but she committed the first sin.

You assert that the design defect was designed in prior to the sin as punishment for something that had not yet occurred?

The curse God put on eve was after she was created before she had offspring the curse that caused Adam and eve to grow old and died spread through her offspring. The aging process began when Adam and eve sinned.

The design defect we are discussing is the one that causes great pain and fatality during childbirth.

The problems with childbirth are not related to a curse. They are related to the design of the female.

 

[Foxfyre]

You assert that the design defect was designed in prior to the sin as punishment for something that had not yet occurred?

The curse God put on eve was after she was created before she had offspring the curse that caused Adam and eve to grow old and died spread through her offspring. The aging process began when Adam and eve sinned.

The design defect we are discussing is the one that causes great pain and fatality during childbirth.

The problems with childbirth are not related to a curse. They are related to the design of the female.

At yet the fact that humans are born every day and they live with unrelenting predictability is in itself a fact. And why of all mammals are humans the only apparent one in which child birth includes a great deal of pain? I have been with my dogs and cats as they gave birth over the years and they seemed to be perfectly okay with it. Mama cat actually purred as the muscles worked to expel her new kittens.

So is evolution as flawed as the suppositions of faith? And is not one as logical as the other in explaining these things?

Such questions will not be answered by science or faith in our lifetime.

 

[code1211]

whoa big fella that is not what I said. I said do you know of any organism giving birth to an offspring not of the same kind meaning family. Are the donkey horse and mule of the same family. Some of the diversity we see could have come from cross breeding. But your theory calls for these changes to come from mutations. Not only that a mule was the product of man like many breeds from dogs ,horses, virtually all livestock. What I asked for was do you know of one family giving birth to a different family ?

I see...

So very similar does not reflect anything that is not within your belief system.

Like a chimpanzee and a man.

Got it.

while there is similarity between humans and chimps but there is a vast difference in the genetic information. The human is made up of 4 billion base pairs of Dna with a 5% difference between humans and chimps that is 200 hundred million base pairs of Dna difference.That is what we know of. what they don't tell you as they study the genome they keep finding more differences.by the normal rate of mutations that occur man has not been on the planet long enough to Eco enough beneficial mutations for humans to evolve from any apelike creature. fact is when I ask for someone from your side to point out beneficial mutations they can't name very many. but harmful mutations are at 5,000 that cause deformity and or disease and growing. That was my job for years to study mutations in flies mutations caused more harm then good.

As I understand the current thinking on evolution, the descent of man was not from chimps. Both Man and Chimps descend from a common ancestor.

Regardless of that, though, you seem to be saying that the intelligent Designer made Monkeys and Men less than 5% different.

Sounds like when he made the Monkey, he didn't exactly throw the mold out.