Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?

[Foxfyre]

We are talking about the evidence you present for an Intelligent designer.

If you define the designer as a malevolent torture loving death advocate, the the process of birth makes sense.

The virtual sameness of the design that lends itself to more ease in the posture of the lower primates in birth calls to question the motivation of the Designer. Or His creativity.

So, which is it? Is he an incompetent designer or a malevolent and hateful designer?

No that was punishment for eves sin he did not kill her but he did punisher her. Are we wrong to punish criminals ?

This one brings us back to the moral question of original sin. If the bible stands true, then people aren't reincarnated in different forms to live again on this Earth in Hindu fashion. Nobody who is currently alive was also alive during the time of Adam and Eve. Therefore, there's not a single woman alive today who, even if she really, -really- wanted to stop the snake from tempting Eve, or stop Eve from eating of the fruit, could have done anything about it. Every single woman alive today was completely powerless to do anything about Eve fucking up in the garden of eden.

How does a God who is infinitely wise, and loving, and just, sentence every woman to that sort of painful, often-deadly child birthing model for the crime of one woman that they were powerless to prevent?

I would say that we are not wrong to punish criminals. . . however. . . if someone commits murder, to you also imprison his children? Their children? How many generations of that persons offspring is it justifiable to punish for the crimes of their predecessor? And is it just offspring? What about siblings? Predecessors? Everybody who looks like 'em? Everybody in the same species? Should the entire human race get in line for the electric chair since, somewhere in history, there had to be -somebody- who did enough awful shit to justify the death penalty. If original sin is our model for justice, then every human should be punished for every crime committed by any human. Does this sound consistent with your view of justice?

There is profound wisdom to be found in the Bible, but much of it is evident only if one can free his/her mind from the literal and embrace the greater truths that are expressed metaphorically. symbolically, or allegorically.

In Exodus 34, for instance, we read various translations of a curious passage: "The sins of the fathers are visited upon the children even unto the fourth and fifth generation."

This makes sense if we go back to the Creation story beginning in the second chapter of Genesis which was written at a much earler time than was the first chapter of Genesis. There we see the progression: the 'original' sin of Adam and Eve that began the process of spoling God's perfect creation for them. Then Cain and Abel in which the sin spreads into the family and further screws things up for them. And then into the larger community, (Noah) and finally into the entire world (the Tower of Babel.) All, in my opinion, are allegorical explanations for why things are the way they are, but the theme of sin, intended or unintended, runs through all, and there is consequence for all sin.

The lesson to be learned is that what God created is perfect. And it is our collective sin that spoils that perfection and it is accumulative and progressive which is why sin is bad. So we at different times have eroded our health and damaged genes to be passed on to our progeny; addictions affect the whole family and subsequent generations; and as a global society we at different times have destroyed the beauty and wonder, fouled the soil and water and air and food supply, and failed to do what we could to preserve much of what God gave us.

Sin is that which harms us and/or others whether intentional or not. The lesson of the Bible is that if we yield ourselves to God and do what He commands, we will not sin.and will not spoil his perfect creation. Otherwise, sin is inevitable.

 

[TrinityPower]

To be truthful, the question has been asked and answered. That you refuse to accept the answer does not make it less valid or logical.

Have you seen any organism that gave birth to something other then their own kind ?

Without putting too fine a point on this, breeding a female horse and a male donkey produces a mule.

Two distinct and recognizably different species combine to birth a third distinct and recognizable species.

Mules however do not breed mules. The are all sterile

 

[TrinityPower]

Have you seen any organism that gave birth to something other then their own kind ?

Mules however do not breed mules. The are all sterile

and furthermore they are man made in that they control the breeding process. Do you really know how a mule is created? They breed a male donkey to a female Belgium horse. If you think in nature a donky could mount a Belgium or would even make a go of it naturally I would like to see pictures

 

[TrinityPower]

Uh oh only microevolution has been observed not macroevolution no matter what nonsense you have been taught.

So unless a human being can be alive for a billion years to actually view macroevolution as you call it, it doesn't exist?

Do we apply that same level of proof to the existence of God?

If my bible is the truth man diid see God. Historian Josephus ,wrote about Jesus and mentioned miracles that were witnessed by others.

Moses saw God,Lot saw God.

That is one of the most important tenets of the scientific method is to be able to observe.

Moses did not see gods face. He saw other manifestations of god. The goodness of god passes before him as he was hidden in the cleft of the rock. Adam saw the face of god as god blew life into his nostrils so god was the first thing he saw when he breathed air. Jesus is the face of god so to speak. He is the part of the trinity we can see feel and touch

 

[Youwerecreated]

Have you seen any organism that gave birth to something other then their own kind ?

Without putting too fine a point on this, breeding a female horse and a male donkey produces a mule.

Two distinct and recognizably different species combine to birth a third distinct and recognizable species.

Mules however do not breed mules. The are all sterile

No they are different breeds within the same family and many animals can cross breed but usually done by man.

 

[Youwerecreated]

So unless a human being can be alive for a billion years to actually view macroevolution as you call it, it doesn't exist?

Do we apply that same level of proof to the existence of God?

If my bible is the truth man diid see God. Historian Josephus ,wrote about Jesus and mentioned miracles that were witnessed by others.

Moses saw God,Lot saw God.

That is one of the most important tenets of the scientific method is to be able to observe.

Moses did not see gods face. He saw other manifestations of god. The goodness of god passes before him as he was hidden in the cleft of the rock. Adam saw the face of god as god blew life into his nostrils so god was the first thing he saw when he breathed air. Jesus is the face of god so to speak. He is the part of the trinity we can see feel and touch

No one has seen God in his full glory.

 

[Foxfyre]

But we are veering off the thread topic. Even if I was not a believer, the very precision of the universe, as well as the amazing anomalies within the consistencies, as well as the progression of all species to their current forms, do make a very good case for some sort of intelligent design.

 

[code1211]

Uh oh only microevolution has been observed not macroevolution no matter what nonsense you have been taught.

So unless a human being can be alive for a billion years to actually view macroevolution as you call it, it doesn't exist?

Do we apply that same level of proof to the existence of God?

If my bible is the truth man diid see God. Historian Josephus ,wrote about Jesus and mentioned miracles that were witnessed by others.

Moses saw God,Lot saw God.

That is one of the most important tenets of the scientific method is to be able to observe.

With respect:

The Synoptic Gospels while all in general agreement were written starting about a 100 years after Jesus' death.

The Old Testement stories are not a reliable history. If anything, it is a single point of view PR piece by a roving tribe in a hostile world.

If you are to produce proof of the level that you demand of the other side, you have some producing to do.

 

[code1211]

Simiarity proves nothing.

We are talking about the evidence you present for an Intelligent designer.

If you define the designer as a malevolent torture loving death advocate, the the process of birth makes sense.

The virtual sameness of the design that lends itself to more ease in the posture of the lower primates in birth calls to question the motivation of the Designer. Or His creativity.

So, which is it? Is he an incompetent designer or a malevolent and hateful designer?

No that was punishment for eves sin he did not kill her but he did punisher her. Are we wrong to punish criminals ?

Again, Eve was designed prior to the sin.

 

[code1211]

Have you seen any organism that gave birth to something other then their own kind ?

Without putting too fine a point on this, breeding a female horse and a male donkey produces a mule.

Two distinct and recognizably different species combine to birth a third distinct and recognizable species.

These are the mechanics of evolution.

You bred a hybrid and that didn't answer my question.

You can't crossbreed two different famlies and get a hybrid,why ?

Besides most organisms breed to their own kind.

Why do most organisms stay with their own kind even their own breed ?

Have you noticed that most animals that have been domesticated by man do not stick to their own breed but they do stick with their own families.

Whoa big fellow.

You said that there could not be a different product as the result of breeding. There both can be and are.

That is a virtually instant example. Our specific species is changing all the time. I'm 6-2. The best examples of men from the middle ages were about 5-7. Suits of armor, doncha know.

Producing a change on the order that the horse, mule and donkey reveal is a demonstration of what can happen in a single generation. Across generations, if only half of one percent of the offspring's characters changed per generation, that would would produce a new species in just 200 generations.

We are discussing changes across millions of generations.

You believe a staff can instantly turn into a snake but a dinosaur could not evolve into a bird given 200 million years to evolve?

Do you place other limits on the abilities of the Designer?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

...precision indicates that an intelligent person guided the outcome...The reverse of precision is an accident...

so you've finally realized you are of god's accidents?

bravo bravo progress

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Why does such fine-tuning occur? "


The accidental universe: Science's crisis of faith
By Alan P. Lightman
The accidental universe: Science's crisis of faith?By Alan P. Lightman (Harper's Magazine)

an observable(after the fact) course of events leads to certain conclusion. we observe and attribute a design to things and this proves design or intent?

when we observe things we are observing from the present. we look back in time? or do we see what is left over in the present moment that resulted from what occurred back in time?

don't we attribute design, intent, motive, in most things we observe, and aren't we more often than not wrong in our assumptions?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

AGRUMENT #1 FOR AN INTELLIGENT CREATOR:

For the average person, precision indicates that an intelligent person guided the outcome. According to Webster's New World College Dictionary, the word "precision" is defined as follows:

"the quality of being precise; exactness, accuracy"


The reverse of precision is an accident aka a spontaneous event that happen by chance with no one guiding the outcome. Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary defines an accident as:

"a nonessential event that happens by chance and has undesirable or unfortunate results"


Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us in the natural world. This precision renders the evolution theory mere fiction, for precision leaves no room for error or for accidental events. Take, for example, the first discovered 60 elements on the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth. Some of these 60 elements are gases and are therefore invisible to the human eye. The atoms--from which the Earth's elements are made--are specifically related to one another. In turn, the elements--e.g. arsenic, bismuth, chromium, gold, krypton--reflect a distinct, natural numeral order based upon the structure of their atoms. This is a proven LAW.

The precision in the order of the elements made it possible for scientists such as Mendeleyev, Ramsey, Moseley, and Bohr to theorize the existence of unknown elements and their characteristics. These elements were later discovered, just as predicted. Because of the distinct numerical order of the elements, the word LAW is applied to the Periodic Table of the Elements. (Sources: (1) The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science & Technology, (2) "Periodic Law," from Encyclopædia Britannica, Vol. VII, p. 878, copyright 1978, (3) The Hutchinson Dictionary of Scientific Biography


SIDE NOTE: Laws found in nature, as defined by Webster's New World Dictionary, are:

"a sequence of events that have been observed to occur with UNVARYING UNIFORMITY under the same conditions."


QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
1. Were it not for the precise relationship among the first 60 discovered elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that at the time were unknown?

2. Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident? Or is this evidence for the existence an intelligent Designer/God who guided the outcome?

3. Evolution relies upon things happening by chance aka at random. If evolution were a fact, how does it account for the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth in which the first 60 discovered elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that it has been assigned the word "LAW"?

As a child I saw the articulated skeletons of dinosaurs and was absolutely fascinated. As i matured, it occurred to me that there is a remarkable similarity in all vertebrate skeletons.

If i were an intelligent creator, I'd have changed it up a little. You know, like trucks and cars. maybe the really big animals have 4 hind legs and some of the birds have 4 legs and two wings.

The incredible consistency is, to me, proof that the various species evolved. Also consistency is the mark of mindlessness not the mark of creativity. Why do species reproduce the next generation very similarly to the previous? Why is there not a regularity of mutation consistent with a great and creative mind?

If there is a precise regularity that can be traced to a precise mechanism, that argues against a creative intelligence working on things with interest.

It's the difference between the Mona Lisa and the Model T.

The multiverse offers an explanation to the fine-tuning conundrum that does not require the presence of a Designer. As Steven Weinberg says: “Over many centuries science has weakened the hold of religion, not by disproving the existence of God but by invalidating arguments for God based on what we observe in the natural world. The multiverse idea offers an explanation of why we find ourselves in a universe favorable to life that does not rely on the benevolence of a creator, and so if correct will leave still less support for religion.”

Some physicists remain skeptical of the anthropic principle and the reliance on multiple universes to explain the values of the fundamental parameters of physics...Weinberg and Guth, have reluctantly accepted the anthropic principle and the multiverse idea as together providing the best possible explanation for the observed facts.

-

The accidental universe: Science's crisis of faith?By Alan P. Lightman (Harper's Magazine)

 

[code1211]

Mules however do not breed mules. The are all sterile

and furthermore they are man made in that they control the breeding process. Do you really know how a mule is created? They breed a male donkey to a female Belgium horse. If you think in nature a donky could mount a Belgium or would even make a go of it naturally I would like to see pictures

The conditions of the coupling is induced by people, but the mechanics of the coupling are pre-existing.

 

[Youwerecreated]

So unless a human being can be alive for a billion years to actually view macroevolution as you call it, it doesn't exist?

Do we apply that same level of proof to the existence of God?

If my bible is the truth man diid see God. Historian Josephus ,wrote about Jesus and mentioned miracles that were witnessed by others.

Moses saw God,Lot saw God.

That is one of the most important tenets of the scientific method is to be able to observe.

With respect:

The Synoptic Gospels while all in general agreement were written starting about a 100 years after Jesus' death.

The Old Testement stories are not a reliable history. If anything, it is a single point of view PR piece by a roving tribe in a hostile world.

If you are to produce proof of the level that you demand of the other side, you have some producing to do.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information but the gospel were written between 40 and 70 years after Jesus died on the cross. The ot is very reliable,so reliable communities are being discovered by archaeologist because of the ot.

 

[Youwerecreated]

We are talking about the evidence you present for an Intelligent designer.

If you define the designer as a malevolent torture loving death advocate, the the process of birth makes sense.

The virtual sameness of the design that lends itself to more ease in the posture of the lower primates in birth calls to question the motivation of the Designer. Or His creativity.

So, which is it? Is he an incompetent designer or a malevolent and hateful designer?

No that was punishment for eves sin he did not kill her but he did punisher her. Are we wrong to punish criminals ?

Again, Eve was designed prior to the sin.

Yep,but she committed the first sin.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Without putting too fine a point on this, breeding a female horse and a male donkey produces a mule.

Two distinct and recognizably different species combine to birth a third distinct and recognizable species.

These are the mechanics of evolution.

You bred a hybrid and that didn't answer my question.

You can't crossbreed two different famlies and get a hybrid,why ?

Besides most organisms breed to their own kind.

Why do most organisms stay with their own kind even their own breed ?

Have you noticed that most animals that have been domesticated by man do not stick to their own breed but they do stick with their own families.

Whoa big fellow.

You said that there could not be a different product as the result of breeding. There both can be and are.

That is a virtually instant example. Our specific species is changing all the time. I'm 6-2. The best examples of men from the middle ages were about 5-7. Suits of armor, doncha know.

Producing a change on the order that the horse, mule and donkey reveal is a demonstration of what can happen in a single generation. Across generations, if only half of one percent of the offspring's characters changed per generation, that would would produce a new species in just 200 generations.

We are discussing changes across millions of generations.

You believe a staff can instantly turn into a snake but a dinosaur could not evolve into a bird given 200 million years to evolve?

Do you place other limits on the abilities of the Designer?

whoa big fella that is not what I said. I said do you know of any organism giving birth to an offspring not of the same kind meaning family. Are the donkey horse and mule of the same family. Some of the diversity we see could have come from cross breeding. But your theory calls for these changes to come from mutations. Not only that a mule was the product of man like many breeds from dogs ,horses, virtually all livestock. What I asked for was do you know of one family giving birth to a different family ?

 

[Youwerecreated]

and furthermore they are man made in that they control the breeding process. Do you really know how a mule is created? They breed a male donkey to a female Belgium horse. If you think in nature a donky could mount a Belgium or would even make a go of it naturally I would like to see pictures

The conditions of the coupling is induced by people, but the mechanics of the coupling are pre-existing.

You act like this is a big deal they simply are different breeds from the same family. They are close enough genetically to be crossed to make a mule but not close enough for mules to reproduce themselves to where they can survive on their own . Without man they would not be here.

 

[Alter2Ego]

It's only precise for a period of time. The wrong size asteroid is going in the wrong direction, it's all over for the entire planet. But with your views on science, I honestly don't know if you "believe" in asteroids.

The wrong asteroid, the wrong disease, the wrong natural disaster, and it's all over humans even with the fact that we've only been on earth for a tiny percentage of its existance.

Sin brought about the non perfect conditions.

I still would like an explanation for a planet spinning the opposite direction to the rest.

You never questioned why only this planet got everything it needs to sustain life ?

Why do you get on here and pretend to care about scientific evidence while simultaneously saying things like "sin brought about non perfect conditions."

You don't care that there's zero scientific support for that lunacy, so why do you pretend to care about scientific support in other areas?

ALTER2EGO to- DR.DROCK:

Suppose you present the scientific explanation for why people grow old and die? Last time I heard, there wasn't any explanation. Scientists have commented on the body's ability to repair damaged cells and tissue. They are at a loss as to why, for reasons unknown, the body slowly stops doing this until death is the ultimate result. The Bible gives the explanation that you don't want to hear.

"That is why, just as through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned." (Romans 5:12)

 

[Alter2Ego]

Cuz you just asked me how the earth rotates. Now provide the scientific evidence that shows how sin brought about non perfect conditions.

Human sin (beginning with the rebellion of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden) did indeed bring about imperfect conditions. But that is with reference to life on earth among humans and other life forms. It had nothing to do with the literal earth.

scientific evidence

I need science to back what I'm saying, please play by the same rules or stop disputing science if you don't take it seriously anyways.

ALTER2EGO to- DR.DROCK:

I haven't seen you present a shred of evidence from human scientists explaining why people grow old and die. You can't present any because there is none. Scientists confess they cannot understand why people die when the body clearly has the ability to rejuvenate itself.

You keep demanding scientific evidence. God is above science. Let's see you present some of the science that you insist knows all. Put your money where your mouth is.