Prediction of global temperature for 2017-2024

[frigidweirdo]

You've made a claim, but will you back it up?

Sure...it's basic chemistry.....refer to Henry's Law. Henry's law says that the solubility of a gas in a liquid depends on temperature, the partial pressure of the gas over the liquid, the nature of the solvent and the nature of the gas...if atmospheric temperatures increase, then the resulting warmer oceans will outgas more CO2 than they take up which will make the oceans more basic, not more acidic.

It's like this...either the oceans are getting warmer due to atmospheric warming in which case, the CO2 concentration in sea water is decreasing and therefore acidification from manmade CO2 is just more alarmist gibberish, or the oceans are cooling and absorbing manmade CO2 causing an insignificant amount of acidification which means that the increased CO2 level in the atmosphere is not causing warming, and not causing sea level rise....

so take your pick...you can't have both...warmer oceans due to CO2 induced warming which results in less acidic oceans or cooler oceans in spite of more atmospheric CO2 which results in slightly more acidic oceans but puts the lie to the claim of warming due to more atmospheric CO2...

OKay, you've just made more claims rather than backing up the previous ones.

 

[SSDD]

What the fuck are you talking about, you ignorant ass?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/co2-levels-for-february-eclipsed-prehistoric-highs/

February is one of the first months since before months had names to boast carbon dioxide concentrations at 400 parts per million.* Such CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere have likely not been seen since at least the end of the Oligocene 23 million years ago, an 11-million-year-long epoch of gradual climate cooling that most likely saw CO2 concentrations drop from more than 1,000 ppm. Those of us alive today breathe air never tasted by any of our ancestors in the entire Homo genus.

You guys just flap your silly yaps, and never research anything that you claim. You are dead wrong, at the beginning of the last ice age, the CO2 levels were between 280 and 300 ppm.

Sorry rocks...I keep forgetting that you are one of those poor dupes who believes that the earth has exited the ice age that began at the mid point of the tertiary period and continues today and will continue till such time as there is no ice at the poles....as you can see from the graph below, when the decent into the ice age that continues today began, atmospheric CO2 was at about 1000ppm...

Do yourself a quick google of the term "current ice age" and read some of the 15,000 odd hits you get...learn something rocks...

Lordy, lordy, Cannot read a simple graph, eh. The current ice ages began about 2 million years ago. And the CO2 level was considerably less than 1000 ppm at that time. Since the Tertiary is roughly 65 millions years in length, two million years ago is hardly the midpoint.

So rocks....in order to melt the ice at one or both poles, and effectively end the ice age, the average mean temperature would need to reach about 18C...when has that happened?

My goodness, SSDD, you do enjoy playing the complete idiot. Melt enough ice to raise the sea level three feet, and most of the seaports in the world are in major trouble. With just on increase of 20 ppm over the normal 280, during the eemian period, about 130,000 years ago, the sea level was at least 20 feet higher than today. We have not even began to see the results of the present 400+ ppm in the atmosphere today. But that same inertia in the system means that when we do see it, we will be seeing it for a long time.

So you have nothing but more alarmist claptrap...OK...not like I expected anything else....the fact remains that it has been a very long time science there was no ice at one, or both of the poles which means that the ice age the earth is presently clawing its way out of goes on.

 

[SSDD]

You've made a claim, but will you back it up?

Sure...it's basic chemistry.....refer to Henry's Law. Henry's law says that the solubility of a gas in a liquid depends on temperature, the partial pressure of the gas over the liquid, the nature of the solvent and the nature of the gas...if atmospheric temperatures increase, then the resulting warmer oceans will outgas more CO2 than they take up which will make the oceans more basic, not more acidic.

It's like this...either the oceans are getting warmer due to atmospheric warming in which case, the CO2 concentration in sea water is decreasing and therefore acidification from manmade CO2 is just more alarmist gibberish, or the oceans are cooling and absorbing manmade CO2 causing an insignificant amount of acidification which means that the increased CO2 level in the atmosphere is not causing warming, and not causing sea level rise....

so take your pick...you can't have both...warmer oceans due to CO2 induced warming which results in less acidic oceans or cooler oceans in spite of more atmospheric CO2 which results in slightly more acidic oceans but puts the lie to the claim of warming due to more atmospheric CO2...

As per normal, you don't have a fucking clue as to what you are talking about.

http://dx.doi.org/10.5670/oceanog.2009.95
DOI
10.5670/oceanog.2009.95
The uptake of anthropogenic CO2 by the global ocean induces fundamental changes in seawater chemistry that could have dramatic impacts on biological ecosystems in the upper ocean. Estimates based on the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) business-as-usual emission scenarios suggest that atmospheric CO2 levels could approach 800 ppm near the end of the century. Corresponding biogeochemical models for the ocean indicate that surface water pH will drop from a pre-industrial value of about 8.2 to about 7.8 in the IPCC A2 scenario by the end of this century, increasing the ocean’s acidity by about 150% relative to the beginning of the industrial era. In contemporary ocean water, elevated CO2 will also cause substantial reductions in surface water carbonate ion concentrations, in terms of either absolute changes or fractional changes relative to pre-industrial levels. For most open-ocean surface waters, aragonite undersaturation occurs when carbonate ion concentrations drop below approximately 66 μmol kg-1. The model projections indicate that aragonite undersaturation will start to occur by about 2020 in the Arctic Ocean and 2050 in the Southern Ocean. By 2050, all of the Arctic will be undersaturated with respect to aragonite, and by 2095, all of the Southern Ocean and parts of the North Pacific will be undersaturated. For calcite, undersaturation occurs when carbonate ion concentration drops below 42 μmol kg-1. By 2095, most of the Arctic and some parts of the Bering and Chukchi seas will be undersaturated with respect to calcite. However, in most of the other ocean basins, the surface waters will still be saturated with respect to calcite, but at a level greatly reduced from the present.

Good old rocks...you have a failing model, or a prediction based on a failing model for every occasion, don't you...Your link is chock full of could, estimates, suggestions, models, indications based on models, and on and on...Once again, no actual observed, measured, quantified evidence in support of the A in AGW.....just more models and baseless predictions founded upon them. Good job....not.

 

[SSDD]

Near-future level of CO2-driven ocean acidification radically affects larval survival and development in the brittlestar Ophiothrix fragilis


Tools


Dupont, Sam; Havenhand, Jon; Thorndyke, William; Peck, Lloyd S.; Thorndyke, Michael. 2008 Near-future level of CO2-driven ocean acidification radically affects larval survival and development in the brittlestar Ophiothrix fragilis. Marine Ecology Progress Series, 373. 285-294. 10.3354/meps07800



Before downloading, please read NORA policies.
Text
m373p285.pdf - Published Version
Download (847kB)


Official URL: http://www.int-res.com/articles/theme/m373p285.pdf
Abstract/Summary
The world's oceans are slowly becoming more acidic. In the last 150 yr, the pH of the oceans has dropped by similar to 0.1 units, which is equivalent to a 25 % increase in acidity. Modelling predicts the pH of the oceans to fall by 0.2 to 0.4 units by the year 2100. These changes will have significant effects on marine organisms, especially those with calcareous skeletons such as echinoderms. Little is known about the possible long-term impact of predicted pH changes on marine invertebrate larval development. Here we predict the consequences of increased CO2 (corresponding to pH drops of 0.2 and 0.4 units) on the larval development of the brittlestar Ophiothrix fragilis, which is a keystone species occurring in high densities and stable populations throughout the shelf seas of northwestern Europe (eastern Atlantic). Acidification by 0.2 units induced 100 % larval mortality within 8 d while control larvae showed 70 % survival over the same period. Exposure to low pH also resulted in a temporal decrease in larval size as well as abnormal development and skeletogenesis (abnormalities, asymmetry, altered skeletal proportions). If oceans continue to acidify as expected, ecosystems of the Atlantic dominated by this keystone species will be seriously threatened with major changes in many key benthic and pelagic ecosystems. Thus, it may be useful to monitor O. fragilis populations and initiate conservation if needed.

SSDD, maybe you should actually research some science before posting nonsense. You actually think that you know more than these scientists?

And more baseless predictions based on yet more failing models. Tell me rocks...do you deny Henry's law?....Do you believe that the oceans were less "acidic" during the colder periods of time when the oceans held more CO2 before the outgassing due to warmer water?

 

[SSDD]

Many, many more articles, not one of which supports your silly hypothesis.

And yet more models...denying a law of nature...Henry's law rocks....learn it...interesting that you deny that the oceans held more CO2 and were therefore more acidic during cold periods....and instead claim that they are becoming more acidic as they outgas due to the water being warmer..

 

[SSDD]

Please show me your source and link to a reliable source that CO2 is the only cause of changes in the ocean. What do any and all green plants produce at night?

I didn't say that CO2 is the only cause of change in the oceans.

Pollution, run off etc is the only danger to the oceans....there is not enough fossil fuel on earth to raise the PH level of the oceans to dangerous levels...the ocean is buffered to heavily...read a bit about it and give up your alarmist handwringing...do your part to end the AGW scam so that we can finally turn to the real environmental problems facing our planet....polution...poor land use....etc.

You've made a claim, but will you back it up?

what is it you expect back up on?

How about 1) there aren't enough fossil fuels on the Earth to raise PH levels to dangerous levels.
2) Prove what are dangerous levels of PH in seas.


You know, the claims that were made.

What do you suppose the Ph levels of the oceans were when atmospheric CO2 levels were 1000ppm....2000ppm.....3000, ppm....5000ppm....

Look guy, the fact is that at past, normal rates of absorption, even if we burned all the fossil fuels on earth the atmospheric CO2 levels would not double...for all our activity, we produce only 3% of the total atmospheric CO2...We know from the past that CO2 gets absorbed into damned near everything from limestone reefs, to rocks and soil, to living plants and animals...limestone for example is common across the globe and it is damned near 45% CO2....When the oceans run out of limestone rocks on its floor, then we may have something to worry about....let me know when that happens...

The hard fact is that cold water holds more CO2 than warm water so the oceans become less acidic as temperatures warm...there is no getting around that fact...like it or not.

And by the way goober, the correct term for changing the Ph of the oceans by dissolving CO2 is neutralization...not acidification...acidification is an alarmist buzzword used to create anxiety....

 

[SSDD]

You've made a claim, but will you back it up?

Sure...it's basic chemistry.....refer to Henry's Law. Henry's law says that the solubility of a gas in a liquid depends on temperature, the partial pressure of the gas over the liquid, the nature of the solvent and the nature of the gas...if atmospheric temperatures increase, then the resulting warmer oceans will outgas more CO2 than they take up which will make the oceans more basic, not more acidic.

It's like this...either the oceans are getting warmer due to atmospheric warming in which case, the CO2 concentration in sea water is decreasing and therefore acidification from manmade CO2 is just more alarmist gibberish, or the oceans are cooling and absorbing manmade CO2 causing an insignificant amount of acidification which means that the increased CO2 level in the atmosphere is not causing warming, and not causing sea level rise....

so take your pick...you can't have both...warmer oceans due to CO2 induced warming which results in less acidic oceans or cooler oceans in spite of more atmospheric CO2 which results in slightly more acidic oceans but puts the lie to the claim of warming due to more atmospheric CO2...

OKay, you've just made more claims rather than backing up the previous ones.

Yeah...what's a natural law to a believer...I see you didn't look up Henry's law and remain blissfully ignorant....the fact that you didn't doesn't alter the fact that colder water holds more CO2...

Here, try an experiment for yourself...careful though, this is actual science...science where you do something and then observed the results and apply those results to the real world...think you can handle a bit of truth?

Get yourself a couple of bottles of club soda...or coke, it really doesn't matter...put one in the refrigerator overnight and leave the other out on the counter...next morning, open them both....put the cold one back in the refrigerator and leave the warm one out on the counter...go to work...or the welfare line, or your purveyor of porn...whatever you do with your days....when you come home in the evening, pour yourself a glass of the club soda on the counter...note the lack of bubbles and the flat taste....now do the same with the bottle you left in the refrigerator....while it won't be as bubbly as a freshly opened bottle because of the pressure in the bottle, you will find that it is quite a bit more bubbly than the bottle left on the counter...take a taste and you will see that it is not nearly as flat as the bottle left on the counter....

If you have access to a Ph testing kit.. you might test the Ph of the freshly opened bottles and note them down...you will note that the Ph of the colder bottle is lower than the warmer bottle...this is because the cold liquid holds more CO2 than the warm liquid...now you could play with the air pressure above the liquid and get different results but this experiment should show you that cold water holds more CO2 than warm water...now apply what you have observed with your own eyes to the world's oceans...they behave just like the water in that bottle of club soda.....when they warm, they outgas CO2...when they are cold, they retain CO2....

If you have any brain at all, and even the smallest bit of critical thinking skills, you should be able to draw a reasonably accurate conclusion from your little experiment....do you believe the oceans are more acidic during cold periods when they are up taking CO2 and outgassing very little or do you believe they are more acidic during warm periods when they are outgassing at a far more rapid rate than they are up taking CO2?

 

[frigidweirdo]

You've made a claim, but will you back it up?

Sure...it's basic chemistry.....refer to Henry's Law. Henry's law says that the solubility of a gas in a liquid depends on temperature, the partial pressure of the gas over the liquid, the nature of the solvent and the nature of the gas...if atmospheric temperatures increase, then the resulting warmer oceans will outgas more CO2 than they take up which will make the oceans more basic, not more acidic.

It's like this...either the oceans are getting warmer due to atmospheric warming in which case, the CO2 concentration in sea water is decreasing and therefore acidification from manmade CO2 is just more alarmist gibberish, or the oceans are cooling and absorbing manmade CO2 causing an insignificant amount of acidification which means that the increased CO2 level in the atmosphere is not causing warming, and not causing sea level rise....

so take your pick...you can't have both...warmer oceans due to CO2 induced warming which results in less acidic oceans or cooler oceans in spite of more atmospheric CO2 which results in slightly more acidic oceans but puts the lie to the claim of warming due to more atmospheric CO2...

As per normal, you don't have a fucking clue as to what you are talking about.

http://dx.doi.org/10.5670/oceanog.2009.95
DOI
10.5670/oceanog.2009.95
The uptake of anthropogenic CO2 by the global ocean induces fundamental changes in seawater chemistry that could have dramatic impacts on biological ecosystems in the upper ocean. Estimates based on the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) business-as-usual emission scenarios suggest that atmospheric CO2 levels could approach 800 ppm near the end of the century. Corresponding biogeochemical models for the ocean indicate that surface water pH will drop from a pre-industrial value of about 8.2 to about 7.8 in the IPCC A2 scenario by the end of this century, increasing the ocean’s acidity by about 150% relative to the beginning of the industrial era. In contemporary ocean water, elevated CO2 will also cause substantial reductions in surface water carbonate ion concentrations, in terms of either absolute changes or fractional changes relative to pre-industrial levels. For most open-ocean surface waters, aragonite undersaturation occurs when carbonate ion concentrations drop below approximately 66 μmol kg-1. The model projections indicate that aragonite undersaturation will start to occur by about 2020 in the Arctic Ocean and 2050 in the Southern Ocean. By 2050, all of the Arctic will be undersaturated with respect to aragonite, and by 2095, all of the Southern Ocean and parts of the North Pacific will be undersaturated. For calcite, undersaturation occurs when carbonate ion concentration drops below 42 μmol kg-1. By 2095, most of the Arctic and some parts of the Bering and Chukchi seas will be undersaturated with respect to calcite. However, in most of the other ocean basins, the surface waters will still be saturated with respect to calcite, but at a level greatly reduced from the present.

Good old rocks...you have a failing model, or a prediction based on a failing model for every occasion, don't you...Your link is chock full of could, estimates, suggestions, models, indications based on models, and on and on...Once again, no actual observed, measured, quantified evidence in support of the A in AGW.....just more models and baseless predictions founded upon them. Good job....not.

It must be great when you go into a debate and you know what you're going to say to any evidence presented. You just say it's a model that doesn't work based on evident that isn't good. Then you feel like you can't lose.

The problem happens when things go wrong, I mean, like the world goes wrong, then what?

 

[frigidweirdo]

You've made a claim, but will you back it up?

Sure...it's basic chemistry.....refer to Henry's Law. Henry's law says that the solubility of a gas in a liquid depends on temperature, the partial pressure of the gas over the liquid, the nature of the solvent and the nature of the gas...if atmospheric temperatures increase, then the resulting warmer oceans will outgas more CO2 than they take up which will make the oceans more basic, not more acidic.

It's like this...either the oceans are getting warmer due to atmospheric warming in which case, the CO2 concentration in sea water is decreasing and therefore acidification from manmade CO2 is just more alarmist gibberish, or the oceans are cooling and absorbing manmade CO2 causing an insignificant amount of acidification which means that the increased CO2 level in the atmosphere is not causing warming, and not causing sea level rise....

so take your pick...you can't have both...warmer oceans due to CO2 induced warming which results in less acidic oceans or cooler oceans in spite of more atmospheric CO2 which results in slightly more acidic oceans but puts the lie to the claim of warming due to more atmospheric CO2...

OKay, you've just made more claims rather than backing up the previous ones.

Yeah...what's a natural law to a believer...I see you didn't look up Henry's law and remain blissfully ignorant....the fact that you didn't doesn't alter the fact that colder water holds more CO2...

Here, try an experiment for yourself...careful though, this is actual science...science where you do something and then observed the results and apply those results to the real world...think you can handle a bit of truth?

Get yourself a couple of bottles of club soda...or coke, it really doesn't matter...put one in the refrigerator overnight and leave the other out on the counter...next morning, open them both....put the cold one back in the refrigerator and leave the warm one out on the counter...go to work...or the welfare line, or your purveyor of porn...whatever you do with your days....when you come home in the evening, pour yourself a glass of the club soda on the counter...note the lack of bubbles and the flat taste....now do the same with the bottle you left in the refrigerator....while it won't be as bubbly as a freshly opened bottle because of the pressure in the bottle, you will find that it is quite a bit more bubbly than the bottle left on the counter...take a taste and you will see that it is not nearly as flat as the bottle left on the counter....

If you have access to a Ph testing kit.. you might test the Ph of the freshly opened bottles and note them down...you will note that the Ph of the colder bottle is lower than the warmer bottle...this is because the cold liquid holds more CO2 than the warm liquid...now you could play with the air pressure above the liquid and get different results but this experiment should show you that cold water holds more CO2 than warm water...now apply what you have observed with your own eyes to the world's oceans...they behave just like the water in that bottle of club soda.....when they warm, they outgas CO2...when they are cold, they retain CO2....

If you have any brain at all, and even the smallest bit of critical thinking skills, you should be able to draw a reasonably accurate conclusion from your little experiment....do you believe the oceans are more acidic during cold periods when they are up taking CO2 and outgassing very little or do you believe they are more acidic during warm periods when they are outgassing at a far more rapid rate than they are up taking CO2?

The point was, I asked you to back something up, and then you went off on one without backing up what I asked you to back up.

I am supposed to just accept it when you go off on a 90 degree tangent?

 

[SSDD]

You've made a claim, but will you back it up?

Sure...it's basic chemistry.....refer to Henry's Law. Henry's law says that the solubility of a gas in a liquid depends on temperature, the partial pressure of the gas over the liquid, the nature of the solvent and the nature of the gas...if atmospheric temperatures increase, then the resulting warmer oceans will outgas more CO2 than they take up which will make the oceans more basic, not more acidic.

It's like this...either the oceans are getting warmer due to atmospheric warming in which case, the CO2 concentration in sea water is decreasing and therefore acidification from manmade CO2 is just more alarmist gibberish, or the oceans are cooling and absorbing manmade CO2 causing an insignificant amount of acidification which means that the increased CO2 level in the atmosphere is not causing warming, and not causing sea level rise....

so take your pick...you can't have both...warmer oceans due to CO2 induced warming which results in less acidic oceans or cooler oceans in spite of more atmospheric CO2 which results in slightly more acidic oceans but puts the lie to the claim of warming due to more atmospheric CO2...

As per normal, you don't have a fucking clue as to what you are talking about.

http://dx.doi.org/10.5670/oceanog.2009.95
DOI
10.5670/oceanog.2009.95
The uptake of anthropogenic CO2 by the global ocean induces fundamental changes in seawater chemistry that could have dramatic impacts on biological ecosystems in the upper ocean. Estimates based on the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) business-as-usual emission scenarios suggest that atmospheric CO2 levels could approach 800 ppm near the end of the century. Corresponding biogeochemical models for the ocean indicate that surface water pH will drop from a pre-industrial value of about 8.2 to about 7.8 in the IPCC A2 scenario by the end of this century, increasing the ocean’s acidity by about 150% relative to the beginning of the industrial era. In contemporary ocean water, elevated CO2 will also cause substantial reductions in surface water carbonate ion concentrations, in terms of either absolute changes or fractional changes relative to pre-industrial levels. For most open-ocean surface waters, aragonite undersaturation occurs when carbonate ion concentrations drop below approximately 66 μmol kg-1. The model projections indicate that aragonite undersaturation will start to occur by about 2020 in the Arctic Ocean and 2050 in the Southern Ocean. By 2050, all of the Arctic will be undersaturated with respect to aragonite, and by 2095, all of the Southern Ocean and parts of the North Pacific will be undersaturated. For calcite, undersaturation occurs when carbonate ion concentration drops below 42 μmol kg-1. By 2095, most of the Arctic and some parts of the Bering and Chukchi seas will be undersaturated with respect to calcite. However, in most of the other ocean basins, the surface waters will still be saturated with respect to calcite, but at a level greatly reduced from the present.

Good old rocks...you have a failing model, or a prediction based on a failing model for every occasion, don't you...Your link is chock full of could, estimates, suggestions, models, indications based on models, and on and on...Once again, no actual observed, measured, quantified evidence in support of the A in AGW.....just more models and baseless predictions founded upon them. Good job....not.

It must be great when you go into a debate and you know what you're going to say to any evidence presented. You just say it's a model that doesn't work based on evident that isn't good. Then you feel like you can't lose.

The problem happens when things go wrong, I mean, like the world goes wrong, then what?

Here is a clue frigid....output from failing models is not evidence of anything other than that the models are failing....I have asked repeatedly for decades now for some actual observed, measured, quantified evidence in support of the claims you goobers make based on models and none has been forthcoming...I just started a thread precisely for that point a few days ago and as predicted, there has been no actual measured, quantified evidence in support of the claim that man is altering the climate posted...just as rocks' paper isn't evidence...it is a prediction based on a model that has failed...nothing like the claims it makes are being observed in nature, but he posts it anyway...i suppose to fool people like you and keep them in their seat on the AGW crazy train.

 

[SSDD]

You've made a claim, but will you back it up?

Sure...it's basic chemistry.....refer to Henry's Law. Henry's law says that the solubility of a gas in a liquid depends on temperature, the partial pressure of the gas over the liquid, the nature of the solvent and the nature of the gas...if atmospheric temperatures increase, then the resulting warmer oceans will outgas more CO2 than they take up which will make the oceans more basic, not more acidic.

It's like this...either the oceans are getting warmer due to atmospheric warming in which case, the CO2 concentration in sea water is decreasing and therefore acidification from manmade CO2 is just more alarmist gibberish, or the oceans are cooling and absorbing manmade CO2 causing an insignificant amount of acidification which means that the increased CO2 level in the atmosphere is not causing warming, and not causing sea level rise....

so take your pick...you can't have both...warmer oceans due to CO2 induced warming which results in less acidic oceans or cooler oceans in spite of more atmospheric CO2 which results in slightly more acidic oceans but puts the lie to the claim of warming due to more atmospheric CO2...

OKay, you've just made more claims rather than backing up the previous ones.

Yeah...what's a natural law to a believer...I see you didn't look up Henry's law and remain blissfully ignorant....the fact that you didn't doesn't alter the fact that colder water holds more CO2...

Here, try an experiment for yourself...careful though, this is actual science...science where you do something and then observed the results and apply those results to the real world...think you can handle a bit of truth?

Get yourself a couple of bottles of club soda...or coke, it really doesn't matter...put one in the refrigerator overnight and leave the other out on the counter...next morning, open them both....put the cold one back in the refrigerator and leave the warm one out on the counter...go to work...or the welfare line, or your purveyor of porn...whatever you do with your days....when you come home in the evening, pour yourself a glass of the club soda on the counter...note the lack of bubbles and the flat taste....now do the same with the bottle you left in the refrigerator....while it won't be as bubbly as a freshly opened bottle because of the pressure in the bottle, you will find that it is quite a bit more bubbly than the bottle left on the counter...take a taste and you will see that it is not nearly as flat as the bottle left on the counter....

If you have access to a Ph testing kit.. you might test the Ph of the freshly opened bottles and note them down...you will note that the Ph of the colder bottle is lower than the warmer bottle...this is because the cold liquid holds more CO2 than the warm liquid...now you could play with the air pressure above the liquid and get different results but this experiment should show you that cold water holds more CO2 than warm water...now apply what you have observed with your own eyes to the world's oceans...they behave just like the water in that bottle of club soda.....when they warm, they outgas CO2...when they are cold, they retain CO2....

If you have any brain at all, and even the smallest bit of critical thinking skills, you should be able to draw a reasonably accurate conclusion from your little experiment....do you believe the oceans are more acidic during cold periods when they are up taking CO2 and outgassing very little or do you believe they are more acidic during warm periods when they are outgassing at a far more rapid rate than they are up taking CO2?

The point was, I asked you to back something up, and then you went off on one without backing up what I asked you to back up.

I am supposed to just accept it when you go off on a 90 degree tangent?

I did...in fact, what I gave you was better than any amount of data...I gave you a simple experiment that would allow you to see the truth for yourself of what I am saying...what's the matter, afraid of a couple of bottles of club soda and what cooling one and leaving the other out on the counter will do to your faith....go ahead and do it...actual observation...seeing for yourself that the oceans were more acidic during colder times....seeing for your self that the claims of a warming planet will acidify the oceans is simply alarmist bullshit that even the most simple observation based experiment can debunk...what's the matter guy......afraid?

Your belief is that more CO2 will result in a warming world...well the fact is that a warmer world would result in warmer oceans and warmer oceans hold less CO2 than cold oceans....the more the water warms, the less CO2 it can hold.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yeah...what's a natural law to a believer...I see you didn't look up Henry's law and remain blissfully ignorant....the fact that you didn't doesn't alter the fact that colder water holds more CO2...

Here, try an experiment for yourself...careful though, this is actual science...science where you do something and then observed the results and apply those results to the real world...think you can handle a bit of truth?

Get yourself a couple of bottles of club soda...or coke, it really doesn't matter...put one in the refrigerator overnight and leave the other out on the counter...next morning, open them both....put the cold one back in the refrigerator and leave the warm one out on the counter...go to work...or the welfare line, or your purveyor of porn...whatever you do with your days....when you come home in the evening, pour yourself a glass of the club soda on the counter...note the lack of bubbles and the flat taste....now do the same with the bottle you left in the refrigerator....while it won't be as bubbly as a freshly opened bottle because of the pressure in the bottle, you will find that it is quite a bit more bubbly than the bottle left on the counter...take a taste and you will see that it is not nearly as flat as the bottle left on the counter....

If you have access to a Ph testing kit.. you might test the Ph of the freshly opened bottles and note them down...you will note that the Ph of the colder bottle is lower than the warmer bottle...this is because the cold liquid holds more CO2 than the warm liquid...now you could play with the air pressure above the liquid and get different results but this experiment should show you that cold water holds more CO2 than warm water...now apply what you have observed with your own eyes to the world's oceans...they behave just like the water in that bottle of club soda.....when they warm, they outgas CO2...when they are cold, they retain CO2....

If you have any brain at all, and even the smallest bit of critical thinking skills, you should be able to draw a reasonably accurate conclusion from your little experiment....do you believe the oceans are more acidic during cold periods when they are up taking CO2 and outgassing very little or do you believe they are more acidic during warm periods when they are outgassing at a far more rapid rate than they are up taking CO2?

Fine you want to talk about Henry's law.

Okay, back to your previous post.

You say the warmer oceans get the more CO2 they'll give off. So am I taking it what you've said is the warmer the oceans the less ability the oceans have of holding CO2?

Therefore the warmer the planet, the less effective the oceans are at dealing with man made CO2, which means that there'll be more CO2 in the atmosphere, increasing the warming, decreasing again the ability of the seas to take in CO2?

 

[frigidweirdo]

You've made a claim, but will you back it up?

Sure...it's basic chemistry.....refer to Henry's Law. Henry's law says that the solubility of a gas in a liquid depends on temperature, the partial pressure of the gas over the liquid, the nature of the solvent and the nature of the gas...if atmospheric temperatures increase, then the resulting warmer oceans will outgas more CO2 than they take up which will make the oceans more basic, not more acidic.

It's like this...either the oceans are getting warmer due to atmospheric warming in which case, the CO2 concentration in sea water is decreasing and therefore acidification from manmade CO2 is just more alarmist gibberish, or the oceans are cooling and absorbing manmade CO2 causing an insignificant amount of acidification which means that the increased CO2 level in the atmosphere is not causing warming, and not causing sea level rise....

so take your pick...you can't have both...warmer oceans due to CO2 induced warming which results in less acidic oceans or cooler oceans in spite of more atmospheric CO2 which results in slightly more acidic oceans but puts the lie to the claim of warming due to more atmospheric CO2...

As per normal, you don't have a fucking clue as to what you are talking about.

http://dx.doi.org/10.5670/oceanog.2009.95
DOI
10.5670/oceanog.2009.95
The uptake of anthropogenic CO2 by the global ocean induces fundamental changes in seawater chemistry that could have dramatic impacts on biological ecosystems in the upper ocean. Estimates based on the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) business-as-usual emission scenarios suggest that atmospheric CO2 levels could approach 800 ppm near the end of the century. Corresponding biogeochemical models for the ocean indicate that surface water pH will drop from a pre-industrial value of about 8.2 to about 7.8 in the IPCC A2 scenario by the end of this century, increasing the ocean’s acidity by about 150% relative to the beginning of the industrial era. In contemporary ocean water, elevated CO2 will also cause substantial reductions in surface water carbonate ion concentrations, in terms of either absolute changes or fractional changes relative to pre-industrial levels. For most open-ocean surface waters, aragonite undersaturation occurs when carbonate ion concentrations drop below approximately 66 μmol kg-1. The model projections indicate that aragonite undersaturation will start to occur by about 2020 in the Arctic Ocean and 2050 in the Southern Ocean. By 2050, all of the Arctic will be undersaturated with respect to aragonite, and by 2095, all of the Southern Ocean and parts of the North Pacific will be undersaturated. For calcite, undersaturation occurs when carbonate ion concentration drops below 42 μmol kg-1. By 2095, most of the Arctic and some parts of the Bering and Chukchi seas will be undersaturated with respect to calcite. However, in most of the other ocean basins, the surface waters will still be saturated with respect to calcite, but at a level greatly reduced from the present.

Good old rocks...you have a failing model, or a prediction based on a failing model for every occasion, don't you...Your link is chock full of could, estimates, suggestions, models, indications based on models, and on and on...Once again, no actual observed, measured, quantified evidence in support of the A in AGW.....just more models and baseless predictions founded upon them. Good job....not.

It must be great when you go into a debate and you know what you're going to say to any evidence presented. You just say it's a model that doesn't work based on evident that isn't good. Then you feel like you can't lose.

The problem happens when things go wrong, I mean, like the world goes wrong, then what?

Here is a clue frigid....output from failing models is not evidence of anything other than that the models are failing....I have asked repeatedly for decades now for some actual observed, measured, quantified evidence in support of the claims you goobers make based on models and none has been forthcoming...I just started a thread precisely for that point a few days ago and as predicted, there has been no actual measured, quantified evidence in support of the claim that man is altering the climate posted...just as rocks' paper isn't evidence...it is a prediction based on a model that has failed...nothing like the claims it makes are being observed in nature, but he posts it anyway...i suppose to fool people like you and keep them in their seat on the AGW crazy train.

The point I'm making is this.

There are models based on the information that is available and based on a few other things like predictions. And there is also what is happening.
The two might not be the same, in fact our ability to predict the future isn't that good. You only really need look at the weather forecast and see how often they get it wrong.

Does that mean we don't bother with the weather forecast? No, it doesn't. In fact many people actually rely on the weather forecast, even if it is sometimes wrong.

All you do is sit back and make the same claims "I have asked repeatedly for decades now for some actual observed, measured, quantified evidence..." but then when people present this you dismiss it straight away and then go on and repeat the same sentence over and over as if you're some brainiac for doing so.

It's ridiculous. It doesn't change what is actually happening.

 

[frigidweirdo]

You've made a claim, but will you back it up?

Sure...it's basic chemistry.....refer to Henry's Law. Henry's law says that the solubility of a gas in a liquid depends on temperature, the partial pressure of the gas over the liquid, the nature of the solvent and the nature of the gas...if atmospheric temperatures increase, then the resulting warmer oceans will outgas more CO2 than they take up which will make the oceans more basic, not more acidic.

It's like this...either the oceans are getting warmer due to atmospheric warming in which case, the CO2 concentration in sea water is decreasing and therefore acidification from manmade CO2 is just more alarmist gibberish, or the oceans are cooling and absorbing manmade CO2 causing an insignificant amount of acidification which means that the increased CO2 level in the atmosphere is not causing warming, and not causing sea level rise....

so take your pick...you can't have both...warmer oceans due to CO2 induced warming which results in less acidic oceans or cooler oceans in spite of more atmospheric CO2 which results in slightly more acidic oceans but puts the lie to the claim of warming due to more atmospheric CO2...

OKay, you've just made more claims rather than backing up the previous ones.

Yeah...what's a natural law to a believer...I see you didn't look up Henry's law and remain blissfully ignorant....the fact that you didn't doesn't alter the fact that colder water holds more CO2...

Here, try an experiment for yourself...careful though, this is actual science...science where you do something and then observed the results and apply those results to the real world...think you can handle a bit of truth?

Get yourself a couple of bottles of club soda...or coke, it really doesn't matter...put one in the refrigerator overnight and leave the other out on the counter...next morning, open them both....put the cold one back in the refrigerator and leave the warm one out on the counter...go to work...or the welfare line, or your purveyor of porn...whatever you do with your days....when you come home in the evening, pour yourself a glass of the club soda on the counter...note the lack of bubbles and the flat taste....now do the same with the bottle you left in the refrigerator....while it won't be as bubbly as a freshly opened bottle because of the pressure in the bottle, you will find that it is quite a bit more bubbly than the bottle left on the counter...take a taste and you will see that it is not nearly as flat as the bottle left on the counter....

If you have access to a Ph testing kit.. you might test the Ph of the freshly opened bottles and note them down...you will note that the Ph of the colder bottle is lower than the warmer bottle...this is because the cold liquid holds more CO2 than the warm liquid...now you could play with the air pressure above the liquid and get different results but this experiment should show you that cold water holds more CO2 than warm water...now apply what you have observed with your own eyes to the world's oceans...they behave just like the water in that bottle of club soda.....when they warm, they outgas CO2...when they are cold, they retain CO2....

If you have any brain at all, and even the smallest bit of critical thinking skills, you should be able to draw a reasonably accurate conclusion from your little experiment....do you believe the oceans are more acidic during cold periods when they are up taking CO2 and outgassing very little or do you believe they are more acidic during warm periods when they are outgassing at a far more rapid rate than they are up taking CO2?

The point was, I asked you to back something up, and then you went off on one without backing up what I asked you to back up.

I am supposed to just accept it when you go off on a 90 degree tangent?

I did...in fact, what I gave you was better than any amount of data...I gave you a simple experiment that would allow you to see the truth for yourself of what I am saying...what's the matter, afraid of a couple of bottles of club soda and what cooling one and leaving the other out on the counter will do to your faith....go ahead and do it...actual observation...seeing for yourself that the oceans were more acidic during colder times....seeing for your self that the claims of a warming planet will acidify the oceans is simply alarmist bullshit that even the most simple observation based experiment can debunk...what's the matter guy......afraid?

Your belief is that more CO2 will result in a warming world...well the fact is that a warmer world would result in warmer oceans and warmer oceans hold less CO2 than cold oceans....the more the water warms, the less CO2 it can hold.

No, what you did is go off on a tangent. You think it's better than what I asked for, I think you went off on a tangent.

But I've given you the chance to show me that I'm wrong thinking you're going off on a tangent, from the post after the one you replied to. We'll see.

 

[SSDD]

Fine you want to talk about Henry's law.

Okay, back to your previous post.

You say the warmer oceans get the more CO2 they'll give off. So am I taking it what you've said is the warmer the oceans the less ability the oceans have of holding CO2?

Therefore the warmer the planet, the less effective the oceans are at dealing with man made CO2, which means that there'll be more CO2 in the atmosphere, increasing the warming, decreasing again the ability of the seas to take in CO2?

So you admit that the ocean acidification claim is nonsense? I ask because these false beliefs you have must be taken on one at a time... You accept that the observable facts show that the oceans were more acidic when the earth was colder and that warming does not put the life in the oceans in danger of dying in an acid bath. You accept that fact and renounce your belief in ocean acidification due to global warming?

 

[SSDD]

The point I'm making is this.

There are models based on the information that is available and based on a few other things like predictions. And there is also what is happening.
The two might not be the same, in fact our ability to predict the future isn't that good. You only really need look at the weather forecast and see how often they get it wrong.

The point I am making is that the predictions of the models don't reflect what we see in the real world...within a mere few weeks, every climate model has failed and can't even reflect what we observe in the real world with constant adjustments...why do you suppose that is? Well, let me tell you....the climate models are based on the "science" behind the greenhouse hypothesis and in turn the AGW hypothesis....if the "science" were correct, the models would have a damned good track record in so far as their predictive ability goes rather than a string of failure going back decades...

The hypothesis upon which the models are based is wrong therefore they are never going to be able to produce output that matches what happens out here in the real world.

Does that mean we don't bother with the weather forecast? No, it doesn't. In fact many people actually rely on the weather forecast, even if it is sometimes wrong.[/quot3e]

Do you make iron clad plans based on the weather forecast 10 days out? 5 days out? 2 days out? How often do you find that the predictions didn't match reality?....and that is just the local weather...a very simple system in comparison with the global climate....we can't even predict whether it will rain on my tomatoes this weekend with a system as simple as the local weather but you believe climate models predicting a hundred years out? What's the matter with you and why don't you have any critical thinking skills?

All you do is sit back and make the same claims "I have asked repeatedly for decades now for some actual observed, measured, quantified evidence..." but then when people present this you dismiss it straight away and then go on and repeat the same sentence over and over as if you're some brainiac for doing so.

That is not a claim...it is observable evidence...you can look back and see my requests for observed data and you can see that it is never delivered...like rock's posts above...that isn't observed, measured, quantified evidence...it is the output of failed climate models...none of it came from out here in the real world and the observations in the real world don't reflect the output of those models.

It's ridiculous. It doesn't change what is actually happening.

And it doesn't put any of what is happening even close to the boundaries of natural variability....it is alarmist bullshit.....nothing more.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Fine you want to talk about Henry's law.

Okay, back to your previous post.

You say the warmer oceans get the more CO2 they'll give off. So am I taking it what you've said is the warmer the oceans the less ability the oceans have of holding CO2?

Therefore the warmer the planet, the less effective the oceans are at dealing with man made CO2, which means that there'll be more CO2 in the atmosphere, increasing the warming, decreasing again the ability of the seas to take in CO2?

So you admit that the ocean acidification claim is nonsense? I ask because these false beliefs you have must be taken on one at a time... You accept that the observable facts show that the oceans were more acidic when the earth was colder and that warming does not put the life in the oceans in danger of dying in an acid bath. You accept that fact and renounce your belief in ocean acidification due to global warming?

No.

I'm talking to you about this aspect.

I asked you a question. I didn't expect arrogant bullshit in return, I kind of expected you to answer the question.

Here's CO2 levels in one place in Australia. Gone from 330 to 380 in the space of 40 years.

http://butane.chem.uiuc.edu/pshapley/GenChem1/L25/web-L25.pdf

At the bottom of page 5 there's a chart showing PH levels over a 25 million year period. I'm not sure why you're going back so far, perhaps you think you have a reason to. There have been times when PH levels rose quite high, and now they're getting lower, and they have been at about these levels before, 6 million years ago, 17 million years ago etc.

We've even seen a drop in PH levels as we've experienced in the last 3 million years before. However the starting levels were higher, and then it stopped after about 3 million years. If we keep on going, then what? Also, the levels of drop seem to be similar to what we've experienced in our relative history, if we make the level drop faster, then what? We don't know.

 

[SSDD]

Sure...it's basic chemistry.....refer to Henry's Law. Henry's law says that the solubility of a gas in a liquid depends on temperature, the partial pressure of the gas over the liquid, the nature of the solvent and the nature of the gas...if atmospheric temperatures increase, then the resulting warmer oceans will outgas more CO2 than they take up which will make the oceans more basic, not more acidic.

It's like this...either the oceans are getting warmer due to atmospheric warming in which case, the CO2 concentration in sea water is decreasing and therefore acidification from manmade CO2 is just more alarmist gibberish, or the oceans are cooling and absorbing manmade CO2 causing an insignificant amount of acidification which means that the increased CO2 level in the atmosphere is not causing warming, and not causing sea level rise....

so take your pick...you can't have both...warmer oceans due to CO2 induced warming which results in less acidic oceans or cooler oceans in spite of more atmospheric CO2 which results in slightly more acidic oceans but puts the lie to the claim of warming due to more atmospheric CO2...

OKay, you've just made more claims rather than backing up the previous ones.

Yeah...what's a natural law to a believer...I see you didn't look up Henry's law and remain blissfully ignorant....the fact that you didn't doesn't alter the fact that colder water holds more CO2...

Here, try an experiment for yourself...careful though, this is actual science...science where you do something and then observed the results and apply those results to the real world...think you can handle a bit of truth?

Get yourself a couple of bottles of club soda...or coke, it really doesn't matter...put one in the refrigerator overnight and leave the other out on the counter...next morning, open them both....put the cold one back in the refrigerator and leave the warm one out on the counter...go to work...or the welfare line, or your purveyor of porn...whatever you do with your days....when you come home in the evening, pour yourself a glass of the club soda on the counter...note the lack of bubbles and the flat taste....now do the same with the bottle you left in the refrigerator....while it won't be as bubbly as a freshly opened bottle because of the pressure in the bottle, you will find that it is quite a bit more bubbly than the bottle left on the counter...take a taste and you will see that it is not nearly as flat as the bottle left on the counter....

If you have access to a Ph testing kit.. you might test the Ph of the freshly opened bottles and note them down...you will note that the Ph of the colder bottle is lower than the warmer bottle...this is because the cold liquid holds more CO2 than the warm liquid...now you could play with the air pressure above the liquid and get different results but this experiment should show you that cold water holds more CO2 than warm water...now apply what you have observed with your own eyes to the world's oceans...they behave just like the water in that bottle of club soda.....when they warm, they outgas CO2...when they are cold, they retain CO2....

If you have any brain at all, and even the smallest bit of critical thinking skills, you should be able to draw a reasonably accurate conclusion from your little experiment....do you believe the oceans are more acidic during cold periods when they are up taking CO2 and outgassing very little or do you believe they are more acidic during warm periods when they are outgassing at a far more rapid rate than they are up taking CO2?

The point was, I asked you to back something up, and then you went off on one without backing up what I asked you to back up.

I am supposed to just accept it when you go off on a 90 degree tangent?

I did...in fact, what I gave you was better than any amount of data...I gave you a simple experiment that would allow you to see the truth for yourself of what I am saying...what's the matter, afraid of a couple of bottles of club soda and what cooling one and leaving the other out on the counter will do to your faith....go ahead and do it...actual observation...seeing for yourself that the oceans were more acidic during colder times....seeing for your self that the claims of a warming planet will acidify the oceans is simply alarmist bullshit that even the most simple observation based experiment can debunk...what's the matter guy......afraid?

Your belief is that more CO2 will result in a warming world...well the fact is that a warmer world would result in warmer oceans and warmer oceans hold less CO2 than cold oceans....the more the water warms, the less CO2 it can hold.

No, what you did is go off on a tangent. You think it's better than what I asked for, I think you went off on a tangent.

But I've given you the chance to show me that I'm wrong thinking you're going off on a tangent, from the post after the one you replied to. We'll see.

Giving you a means to see the truth regarding the ability of a warm liquid to hold CO2 vs a cold liquid is a tangent? You wanted evidence and I am delivering it to you on a silver platter...well actually on your kitchen counter and you call that a tangent? It says a great deal about your critical thinking skills....doesn't it.

 

[SSDD]

Fine you want to talk about Henry's law.

Okay, back to your previous post.

You say the warmer oceans get the more CO2 they'll give off. So am I taking it what you've said is the warmer the oceans the less ability the oceans have of holding CO2?

Therefore the warmer the planet, the less effective the oceans are at dealing with man made CO2, which means that there'll be more CO2 in the atmosphere, increasing the warming, decreasing again the ability of the seas to take in CO2?

So you admit that the ocean acidification claim is nonsense? I ask because these false beliefs you have must be taken on one at a time... You accept that the observable facts show that the oceans were more acidic when the earth was colder and that warming does not put the life in the oceans in danger of dying in an acid bath. You accept that fact and renounce your belief in ocean acidification due to global warming?

No.

I'm talking to you about this aspect.

I asked you a question. I didn't expect arrogant bullshit in return, I kind of expected you to answer the question.

Here's CO2 levels in one place in Australia. Gone from 330 to 380 in the space of 40 years.

What about it...No one is arguing that CO2 levels are rising and have seen a significant rise since even 1998...but there has been no statistically significant warming since 1998 even though the hypothesis predicts that as CO2 climbs, the warming will become even greater due to all the claimed forcings...none of the claims has happened.

 

[frigidweirdo]

The point I am making is that the predictions of the models don't reflect what we see in the real world...within a mere few weeks, every climate model has failed and can't even reflect what we observe in the real world with constant adjustments...why do you suppose that is? Well, let me tell you....the climate models are based on the "science" behind the greenhouse hypothesis and in turn the AGW hypothesis....if the "science" were correct, the models would have a damned good track record in so far as their predictive ability goes rather than a string of failure going back decades...

The hypothesis upon which the models are based is wrong therefore they are never going to be able to produce output that matches what happens out here in the real world.

You say the models have "failed". I'm wondering what you mean by "failed". Can you give me some examples of models that have failed and why you think they've failed?