Problems with Higher Education

[Bilbo]

College tuition is rising and students are almost expected to accumulate massive amounts of debt. Isn't this counterproductive since our economy is suffering at the moment?

 

[Mr. H.]

Just because the economy is suffering doesn't mean the price of anything is going to come down.

 

[Bilbo]

You have a point but college prices have been rising exponentially for years. It seems now that a masters degree is the old baccalaureate degree in terms of getting a job, but the price of the baccalaureate is still increasing dramatically. There will come a time if the trend continues that a college degree is not worth the money.

 

[KevinWestern]

College tuition is rising and students are almost expected to accumulate massive amounts of debt. Isn't this counterproductive since our economy is suffering at the moment?

The only way you can fix the tuition problem is to restrict access to student loans. If you do this, colleges will be FORCED to lower their prices because the $11k/year pricetag will begin to sound ridiculous and unattainable when you no longer have access to a $100k line of credit.

 

[Bilbo]

That is true, but restricting access to student loans raises more problems. Then it turns the issue around into one about equal opportunity. If you happen to come from a rich family, you can "afford" college, but if you do not, you cannot get student loans and can't go to college.

 

[KevinWestern]

That is true, but restricting access to student loans raises more problems. Then it turns the issue around into one about equal opportunity. If you happen to come from a rich family, you can "afford" college, but if you do not, you cannot get student loans and can't go to college.

Yep, but sometimes you need to feel a little "hurt" before real positive change comes. At first - yes - the poor will be the hardest impacted (within the first few years) but the simple fact is that "rich kids" who can afford school without loans make up just a tiny fraction of most college's total enrollment and thus attendance will plummet (in the absence of loans) forcing them to reconsider their pricing (or fail).

As for these newly adjusted (lower prices), obviously we're going to need some mechanisms to assist individuals who live below the poverty line, however the concept that EVERYONE can take out a loan to go to college must be done away with.

 

[Bilbo]

That is true, but restricting access to student loans raises more problems. Then it turns the issue around into one about equal opportunity. If you happen to come from a rich family, you can "afford" college, but if you do not, you cannot get student loans and can't go to college.

Yep, but sometimes you need to feel a little "hurt" before real positive change comes. At first - yes - the poor will be the hardest impacted (within the first few years) but the simple fact is that "rich kids" who can afford school without loans make up just a tiny fraction of most college's total enrollment and thus attendance will plummet (in the absence of loans) forcing them to reconsider their pricing (or fail).

That is a valid point. Some kind of gradual restricting of student loans or lower maximum loans might help with tuition prices. What do you think about another issue that involves tuition prices, foreign student enrollment? Countries with high populations, like India, have extreme competition to get into their universities. Students have to be the best of the best to get in to their respective countries colleges. This leaves young adults that are more than capable of making it in US colleges out of luck except for the rich few that can afford to be sent to the US for education.

 

[KevinWestern]

That is true, but restricting access to student loans raises more problems. Then it turns the issue around into one about equal opportunity. If you happen to come from a rich family, you can "afford" college, but if you do not, you cannot get student loans and can't go to college.

Yep, but sometimes you need to feel a little "hurt" before real positive change comes. At first - yes - the poor will be the hardest impacted (within the first few years) but the simple fact is that "rich kids" who can afford school without loans make up just a tiny fraction of most college's total enrollment and thus attendance will plummet (in the absence of loans) forcing them to reconsider their pricing (or fail).

That is a valid point. Some kind of gradual restricting of student loans or lower maximum loans might help with tuition prices. What do you think about another issue that involves tuition prices, foreign student enrollment? Countries with high populations, like India, have extreme competition to get into their universities. Students have to be the best of the best to get in to their respective countries colleges. This leaves young adults that are more than capable of making it in US colleges out of luck except for the rich few that can afford to be sent to the US for education.

Honestly don't want to jump into this (because there's so much too it and I'm not all that interested today, lol), but if foreign students who are the best of the best are making into college via scholarship I say good for them. If US students want to compete, then they better learn to be the best of the best or don't go to school.

If a bunch of US people stop going to school, companies will quit using a 4 year degree as a "requirement". Plain and simple.

In my opinion, not everyone should be expected to go to college. Doctors, lawyers, sure, but do I really need to waste 4 years studying "African american art" and "business management practices" to successfully work at an entry level position at your run of the mill corporation today? Heck no.

We need to shift our thinking and start employing this idea that companies CAN hire people out of high school or after 2 year programs. I'm a budget analyst at a fortune 500 company and probably utilize 5% of my college learning in my day to day. Everything is learned on the job, through experience.

There's no reason why I had to dish out 50k to get some meaningless degree that served as nothing more than a "gate" to my very first position. Again most young people go to college simply because companies require it vs go to college to "learn skills to succeed". Whether or not you succeed in business has very little to do with what you learned in college and has much more to do with what you pick up on the job/work ethic/etc.

 

[Bilbo]

Yep, but sometimes you need to feel a little "hurt" before real positive change comes. At first - yes - the poor will be the hardest impacted (within the first few years) but the simple fact is that "rich kids" who can afford school without loans make up just a tiny fraction of most college's total enrollment and thus attendance will plummet (in the absence of loans) forcing them to reconsider their pricing (or fail).

That is a valid point. Some kind of gradual restricting of student loans or lower maximum loans might help with tuition prices. What do you think about another issue that involves tuition prices, foreign student enrollment? Countries with high populations, like India, have extreme competition to get into their universities. Students have to be the best of the best to get in to their respective countries colleges. This leaves young adults that are more than capable of making it in US colleges out of luck except for the rich few that can afford to be sent to the US for education.

Honestly don't want to jump into this (because there's so much too it and I'm not all that interested today, lol), but if foreign students who are the best of the best are making into college via scholarship I say good for them. If US students want to compete, then they better learn to be the best of the best or don't go to school.

If a bunch of US people stop going to school, companies will quit using a 4 year degree as a "requirement". Plain and simple.

In my opinion, not everyone should be expected to go to college. Doctors, lawyers, sure, but do I really need to waste 4 years studying "African american art" and "business management practices" to successfully work at an entry level position at your run of the mill corporation today? Heck no.

We need to shift our thinking and start employing this idea that companies CAN hire people out of high school or after 2 year programs. I'm a budget analyst at a fortune 500 company and probably utilize 5% of my college learning in my day to day. Everything is learned on the job, through experience.

There's no reason why I had to dish out 50k to get some meaningless degree that served as nothing more than a "gate" to my very first position. Again most young people go to college simply because companies require it vs go to college to "learn skills to succeed". Whether or not you succeed in business has very little to do with what you learned in college and has much more to do with what you pick up on the job/work ethic/etc.

You're completely right. That's exactly what I was getting at. The degree has become just a gateway nowadays. The knowledge that comes with it is important but not always needed to do what you need to do.

I'm studying mechanical and nuclear engineering in college right now and hope to get a job when I get out. All of the stuff I am learning, especially all the English, will do me little good on the job. Thanks for talking to me KevinWestern.

 

[KevinWestern]

That is a valid point. Some kind of gradual restricting of student loans or lower maximum loans might help with tuition prices. What do you think about another issue that involves tuition prices, foreign student enrollment? Countries with high populations, like India, have extreme competition to get into their universities. Students have to be the best of the best to get in to their respective countries colleges. This leaves young adults that are more than capable of making it in US colleges out of luck except for the rich few that can afford to be sent to the US for education.

Honestly don't want to jump into this (because there's so much too it and I'm not all that interested today, lol), but if foreign students who are the best of the best are making into college via scholarship I say good for them. If US students want to compete, then they better learn to be the best of the best or don't go to school.

If a bunch of US people stop going to school, companies will quit using a 4 year degree as a "requirement". Plain and simple.

In my opinion, not everyone should be expected to go to college. Doctors, lawyers, sure, but do I really need to waste 4 years studying "African american art" and "business management practices" to successfully work at an entry level position at your run of the mill corporation today? Heck no.

We need to shift our thinking and start employing this idea that companies CAN hire people out of high school or after 2 year programs. I'm a budget analyst at a fortune 500 company and probably utilize 5% of my college learning in my day to day. Everything is learned on the job, through experience.

There's no reason why I had to dish out 50k to get some meaningless degree that served as nothing more than a "gate" to my very first position. Again most young people go to college simply because companies require it vs go to college to "learn skills to succeed". Whether or not you succeed in business has very little to do with what you learned in college and has much more to do with what you pick up on the job/work ethic/etc.

You're completely right. That's exactly what I was getting at. The degree has become just a gateway nowadays. The knowledge that comes with it is important but not always needed to do what you need to do.

I'm studying mechanical and nuclear engineering in college right now and hope to get a job when I get out. All of the stuff I am learning, especially all the English, will do me little good on the job. Thanks for talking to me KevinWestern.

Well I will mention (again) there are many professions (like engineering) that certainly do require college. That has a purpose, and firms obviously want to hire someone with a solid base understanding of physics, etc.

But for 90% of your run of the mill entry-level office jobs requiring degrees, that's just ridiculous to me.

 

[LeslieKnope]

College tuition is rising and students are almost expected to accumulate massive amounts of debt. Isn't this counterproductive since our economy is suffering at the moment?

I wouldn't say that students are "expected" to accumulate massive amounts of debt. There are opportunities for students to receive scholarships and financial aid. I would, however, agree that the price of college is a tad ridiculous. You go to school to get a degree to get a job to pay for the degree. I guess that's just the way the world works though. The prices of everything are rising. Is there anything we can really do to keep college prices reasonable. I mean, you are paying for the knowledge you gain.

 

[KevinWestern]

College tuition is rising and students are almost expected to accumulate massive amounts of debt. Isn't this counterproductive since our economy is suffering at the moment?

I wouldn't say that students are "expected" to accumulate massive amounts of debt. There are opportunities for students to receive scholarships and financial aid. I would, however, agree that the price of college is a tad ridiculous. You go to school to get a degree to get a job to pay for the degree. I guess that's just the way the world works though. The prices of everything are rising. Is there anything we can really do to keep college prices reasonable. I mean, you are paying for the knowledge you gain.

I would say that "a tad ridiculous" is a bit of an understatement. In 1960, the cost to attend Duke University for one year, including room and board, was estimated to be about $10,000 in today's dollars. Today, the tuition and fees alone (no room and board) will set you back $45,000!

Now how on earth do we go from $10,000 to $45,000 in just a few decades? Are students today getting 4.5x more out of education than they did in 1960? Or are the young people of today really getting f'cked over?

 

[Disir]

It's a scam. States have continuously decreased funding for higher education and so the costs rise. I call it a scam because lots of people like to sit on the side line and say that they have no idea what happened.

This report examines how state disinvestment in public higher education over the past two decades has shifted costs to students and their families. Such disinvestment has occurred alongside rapidly rising enrollments and demographic shifts that are yielding more economically, racially, and ethnically diverse student bodies. As a result students and their families now pay—or borrow—a lot more for a college degree or are getting priced out of an education that has become a requirement for getting a decent job and entering the middle class.

State Investment in Higher Education

A review of financial data from 1990 onwards suggests that a structural change in state support for higher education is underway.

While state spending on higher education increased by $10.5 billion in absolute terms from 1990 to 2010, in relative terms, state funding for higher education declined. Real funding per public full-time equivalent student dropped by 26.1 percent from 1990-1991 to 2009-2010.

Over the past 20 years there has been a breakdown in the historical funding pattern of recessionary cuts and expansionary rebounds. The length of time for higher education funding to recover following recessions has lengthened for every downturn since 1979 with early evidence suggesting that the recovery from the Great Recession will be no different.

Patterns in Tuition and Financial Aid

As state support has declined, institutions have balanced the funding equation by charging students more. Between 1990-1991 and 2009-2010, published prices for tuition and fees at public four-year universities more than doubled, rising by 116 percent, after adjusting for inflation, while the real price of two-year colleges climbed by 71 percent.

In many states, the tuition increases of the past 20 years have occurred alongside expansions in state-sponsored financial aid programs. However, an increasing percentage of that aid is taking the form of merit-based aid which is awarded without regard for students’ financial situations.

The Great Cost Shift: How Higher Education Cuts Undermine The Future Middle Class | Demos

 

[Unkotare]

if foreign students who are the best of the best are making into college via scholarship I say good for them. .

International students don't qualify for most scholarships and student aid.

 

[Unkotare]

I'm studying mechanical and nuclear engineering in college right now and hope to get a job when I get out. All of the stuff I am learning, especially all the English, will do me little good on the job.

You will need to be able to communicate well and present yourself as a competent, educated person outside your technical field if you want to really get anywhere beyond the 'smart worker bee' level even in engineering.

 

[psikeyhackr]

I'm studying mechanical and nuclear engineering in college right now and hope to get a job when I get out. All of the stuff I am learning, especially all the English, will do me little good on the job.

You will need to be able to communicate well and present yourself as a competent, educated person outside your technical field if you want to really get anywhere beyond the 'smart worker bee' level even in engineering.

Yeah, he can't possibly do that without college English courses.

Is it possible to get into an engineering school without doing well enough on the verbal portion on the SAT? Non-specialized courses in college are just an expensive waste of time.

http://www.demos.org/sites/default/files/publications/TheGreatCostShift_Demos_0.pdf

psik

 

[Vigilante]

It's a wonder any youngster can get into a college when the new Common Core teaches them this...

 

[initforme]

"In my opinion, not everyone should be expected to go to college. Doctors, lawyers, sure, but do I really need to waste 4 years studying "African american art" and "business management practices" to successfully work at an entry level position at your run of the mill corporation today? Heck no"

Problem here is that then you expect that people should expect to start out at lower wages. I disagree. The more college educated means the less lower paying jobs. Then less people doing lower paying blue collar jobs(which nobody should ever have to do in the first place). And if you think we need people to do lower paying jobs, then you get in line first to do those jobs. A higher education is the ONLY way to a decent living. The American dream went away in the early 80's. It started in the mid 70;s so I blame those two presidents.

 

[Unkotare]

I'm studying mechanical and nuclear engineering in college right now and hope to get a job when I get out. All of the stuff I am learning, especially all the English, will do me little good on the job.

You will need to be able to communicate well and present yourself as a competent, educated person outside your technical field if you want to really get anywhere beyond the 'smart worker bee' level even in engineering.

Yeah, he can't possibly do that without college English courses.

It's a shame that some people are so opposed to education.

 

[Bilbo]

You will need to be able to communicate well and present yourself as a competent, educated person outside your technical field if you want to really get anywhere beyond the 'smart worker bee' level even in engineering.

Yeah, he can't possibly do that without college English courses.

It's a shame that some people are so opposed to education.

I understand that having good English skills will help me to be more successful no matter what field I study. I just don't understand how learning how to use a synecdoche, for example, will help me to convey engineering studies to other people.