Debate Now Prove your case! Is Homosexuality genetic or a choice?

[Boss]

It's behavioral.

I agree.

So you, Boss and others who agree its behavioral ...

Every morning, do you get out of bed and decide to be heterosexual?

Or, did you just decide once and that's good for life? Do you think you might change your mind and decide to be gay?

If you're gay, when did you decide to be gay?

For both gays and straights, what were your reasons for deciding your sexual identity?



There's more evidence that its genetic than it being a choice but the bottom line is still the same -

Its no one's business.

If one hates gays because it threatens their own sexual identity or they think its icky or they believe there is some religious taboo, then don't decide to be gay that day and decide to be gay the next day. Sure. Why not? If its a choice, then you can alternate if you want.

But, if what (editorial) "you" do is with another consenting adult, (editorial) "your" sexual choice is none of my business. Who you choose to marry is none of my business. What you're doing in your bedroom is none of my business.

If any of you believe your sexual identity and sexual activities are my business, why do you believe that?

So you, Boss and others who agree its behavioral ...

Every morning, do you get out of bed and decide to be heterosexual?

Behaviors are not always completely a matter of decision. No one wakes up and decides to be a psychopath. You don't get out of bed and decide you're going to have anorexia or schizophrenia.

Sexuality is behavioral, but as I stated, it is influenced by genetics and a lot of other things. Regardless of sexuality, the decision to act upon it is a conscious choice. That decision may also be influenced by many things.

A heterosexual person may have strong homosexual desires but chooses to keep them suppressed because of social pressure. They never act on these homosexual desires by choosing to engage in them... are they homosexual?

As for the entire argument about who's business what is.. My business is being part of a civil society where we are allowed to self-govern and establish the moral standards of the society we live in. You and I may disagree on where those boundaries are set, and I support your right to fight for your beliefs the same as myself. But don't try and tell me it's not my business.

 

[Michelle420]

This argument is not based on our "love" of people it's based on our fear of people.

My uncle was gay before he was murdered in 2004 when I was 16. I wanted to know him. It was always cool to find out that one has an uncle. My Dad was was hit hard enough by it. I loved him just like I did my other family. So, I am not afraid of gay people, I am simply not afraid to dig into what makes them gay. I have three friends on my facebook friends list who are gay, there was a show I watched all the way through to the last season that had a bisexual pair of young women.

I don't hate nor fear them whatsoever.

My response was more the to homophobia, that drove laws against homophobic behaviors, and thus led to current ingrains where people believe there is something very wrong with homophobic behavior. I know it's odd to think of homophobic behaviors as natural, but I put it to you that if you don't agree it's natural and you insist it's not based on homophobia, well then were does this view come from if not fear?

There is no harm done to you if someone exhibits homophobic behavior correct?

Yea good point. Are homophobic born that way? I'm not homophobic. Is it a choice for me not to be homophobic but homophobes are born that way or the other way around? That's deep.

Ding ding ding... that's exactly where I was heading back in post #45. Homophobia can be a learned behavior, homophobic behavior may also be a learned behavior. I was taught to be a flaming homophobe back in the 60s and 70s. Those early ingrains are hard to overcome and how do you know if said ingrains are learned or... dna encoded proclivities?

Doesn't matter, a lot of things in life are learned behaviors including prayer. You don't have to like it. But if you are going to police a behavior then you will need to examine all of them.

Everything is socially constructed in society and depending on where you live in the world something taboo or something sacred may be viewed in exact opposition to what your own conditioning is.

What really matters here is whether you have the right to mistreat someone because you don't like who they are in love with or who they are attracted to.

 

[sealybobo]

This argument is not based on our "love" of people it's based on our fear of people.

My uncle was gay before he was murdered in 2004 when I was 16. I wanted to know him. It was always cool to find out that one has an uncle. My Dad was was hit hard enough by it. I loved him just like I did my other family. So, I am not afraid of gay people, I am simply not afraid to dig into what makes them gay. I have three friends on my facebook friends list who are gay, there was a show I watched all the way through to the last season that had a bisexual pair of young women.

I don't hate nor fear them whatsoever.

My response was more the to homophobia, that drove laws against homophobic behaviors, and thus led to current ingrains where people believe there is something very wrong with homophobic behavior. I know it's odd to think of homophobic behaviors as natural, but I put it to you that if you don't agree it's natural and you insist it's not based on homophobia, well then were does this view come from if not fear?

There is no harm done to you if someone exhibits homophobic behavior correct?

Yea good point. Are homophobic born that way? I'm not homophobic. Is it a choice for me not to be homophobic but homophobes are born that way or the other way around? That's deep.

Ding ding ding... that's exactly where I was heading back in post #45. Homophobia can be a learned behavior, homophobic behavior may also be a learned behavior. I was taught to be a flaming homophobe back in the 60s and 70s. Those early ingrains are hard to overcome and how do you know if said ingrains are learned or... dna encoded proclivities?

Yea but not everyone is going to respond the same to the negative teachings. My dad was abused but didn't abuse us. A choice. This is a good subject. Really makes me think. I dont even know now! Lol everyone is different.

 

[RKMBrown]

This argument is not based on our "love" of people it's based on our fear of people.

My uncle was gay before he was murdered in 2004 when I was 16. I wanted to know him. It was always cool to find out that one has an uncle. My Dad was was hit hard enough by it. I loved him just like I did my other family. So, I am not afraid of gay people, I am simply not afraid to dig into what makes them gay. I have three friends on my facebook friends list who are gay, there was a show I watched all the way through to the last season that had a bisexual pair of young women.

I don't hate nor fear them whatsoever.

My response was more the to homophobia, that drove laws against homophobic behaviors, and thus led to current ingrains where people believe there is something very wrong with homophobic behavior. I know it's odd to think of homophobic behaviors as natural, but I put it to you that if you don't agree it's natural and you insist it's not based on homophobia, well then were does this view come from if not fear?

There is no harm done to you if someone exhibits homophobic behavior correct?

If you want to be homophobic in your thought go ahead. Shrug. Just don't allow your thought to make you behave barbaric Example: hate crimes, or allow you to discriminate and act out on your homophobia.

As the world view changes understand that people may not agree with you, I am sure you are fine with that.

I'm not homophobic, nor do I exhibit homosexual behavior. I like women.

My point is to the OP which seeks to determine if homosexual behavior is genetic or a choice. I just flipped it to homophobic behavior by comparison.

 

[sealybobo]

I like brown eyes

Great example of how everyone is different. Do you ever feel like you are a woman trapped in a mans body and have a surgery where they slice your penus and tuck it in so its a mangina?

Would it matter if I did since it's my body ?

No and I'd be ashamed and embarrassed I tried to make a point at your expense.

You made the point fine. You: would be ashamed and embarrassed. But you are not me, nor are you Templar, or RKMBrown and so you don't get to decide what another individual does with their body.

True.

 

[RKMBrown]

This argument is not based on our "love" of people it's based on our fear of people.

My uncle was gay before he was murdered in 2004 when I was 16. I wanted to know him. It was always cool to find out that one has an uncle. My Dad was was hit hard enough by it. I loved him just like I did my other family. So, I am not afraid of gay people, I am simply not afraid to dig into what makes them gay. I have three friends on my facebook friends list who are gay, there was a show I watched all the way through to the last season that had a bisexual pair of young women.

I don't hate nor fear them whatsoever.

My response was more the to homophobia, that drove laws against homophobic behaviors, and thus led to current ingrains where people believe there is something very wrong with homophobic behavior. I know it's odd to think of homophobic behaviors as natural, but I put it to you that if you don't agree it's natural and you insist it's not based on homophobia, well then were does this view come from if not fear?

There is no harm done to you if someone exhibits homophobic behavior correct?

Yea good point. Are homophobic born that way? I'm not homophobic. Is it a choice for me not to be homophobic but homophobes are born that way or the other way around? That's deep.

Ding ding ding... that's exactly where I was heading back in post #45. Homophobia can be a learned behavior, homophobic behavior may also be a learned behavior. I was taught to be a flaming homophobe back in the 60s and 70s. Those early ingrains are hard to overcome and how do you know if said ingrains are learned or... dna encoded proclivities?

Doesn't matter, a lot of things and life are learned behaviors including prayer. You don't have to like it. But if you are going to police a behavior then you will need to examine all of them.

Everything is socially constructed in society and depending on where you live in the world something taboo or something sacred may be viewed in exact opposition to what your own conditioning is.

What really matters here is whether you have the right to mistreat someone because you don't like who they are in love with or who they are attracted to.

Yes, we are in violent agreement.

 

[RKMBrown]

This argument is not based on our "love" of people it's based on our fear of people.

My uncle was gay before he was murdered in 2004 when I was 16. I wanted to know him. It was always cool to find out that one has an uncle. My Dad was was hit hard enough by it. I loved him just like I did my other family. So, I am not afraid of gay people, I am simply not afraid to dig into what makes them gay. I have three friends on my facebook friends list who are gay, there was a show I watched all the way through to the last season that had a bisexual pair of young women.

I don't hate nor fear them whatsoever.

My response was more the to homophobia, that drove laws against homophobic behaviors, and thus led to current ingrains where people believe there is something very wrong with homophobic behavior. I know it's odd to think of homophobic behaviors as natural, but I put it to you that if you don't agree it's natural and you insist it's not based on homophobia, well then were does this view come from if not fear?

There is no harm done to you if someone exhibits homophobic behavior correct?

Yea good point. Are homophobic born that way? I'm not homophobic. Is it a choice for me not to be homophobic but homophobes are born that way or the other way around? That's deep.

Ding ding ding... that's exactly where I was heading back in post #45. Homophobia can be a learned behavior, homophobic behavior may also be a learned behavior. I was taught to be a flaming homophobe back in the 60s and 70s. Those early ingrains are hard to overcome and how do you know if said ingrains are learned or... dna encoded proclivities?

Yea but not everyone is going to respond the same to the negative teachings. My dad was abused but didn't abuse us. A choice. This is a good subject. Really makes me think. I dont even know now! Lol everyone is different.

Yes we are. While there are similarities, our brains are unique, we are unique individuals of a common genus.

 

[Lilah]

1. Not genetic or not genetic alone, because studies on identical twins
do not show 100% match where the twins are the same orientation.
I think the chances are slightly over 50% of being the same orientation,
something like 53% to 47%. Since this is not random either, but there
is a slightly greater chance of matching orientations than not matching,
it could be argued that genetics may predict a "tendency" but that other factors are involved.

Source: "Homosexuality: Can it be healed" by Francis MacNutt

2. In some cases homosexuality may be able to change by choice to undergo spiritual therapy. If you look at real cases of people who changed, this can either be interpreted as "changing orientation as a choice,"
or as "going back to one's original orientation that is natural and not a choice"
(where the other conditions were not natural but were not chosen either).

This is based on faith in people's reports and interpretations.

Regardless if different people look at these changes as natural or unnatural,
the fact is that there are REPORTS of both people changing and people saying they could not change.

Examples: People Can Change - An alternative healing response to unwanted homosexual desires.
De Blasio s wife Chirlane McCray talks about lesbian past - NY Daily News
How To Defeat Homosexual Activists 101 A Real Education Page 4 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

3. NOTE: Because this is faith-based, and cannot be proven either way without more scientific research, where I find people can agree to avoid arguing is that these changes or conditions are SPIRITUALLY determined.

This is also completely faith-based, but at least it covers all the cases and interpretations,
and allows for explanations either way. People still report either changing or not changing.
There is no need to argue, if we can agree it is a spiritual process that determines if people change or not.

I enjoy reading your perspectives; always flavored with a sense of civility.

I question your assertion/your Implication that homosexuality can be altered/changed by a spiritual process since
spirituality is a broad concept with room for many perspectives. In general, it includes a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves, and it
typically involves a search for meaning in life. As such, it is a universal human experience—something that touches.

My question is who's spiritual process is used?

 

[RKMBrown]

1. Not genetic or not genetic alone, because studies on identical twins
do not show 100% match where the twins are the same orientation.
I think the chances are slightly over 50% of being the same orientation,
something like 53% to 47%. Since this is not random either, but there
is a slightly greater chance of matching orientations than not matching,
it could be argued that genetics may predict a "tendency" but that other factors are involved.

Source: "Homosexuality: Can it be healed" by Francis MacNutt

2. In some cases homosexuality may be able to change by choice to undergo spiritual therapy. If you look at real cases of people who changed, this can either be interpreted as "changing orientation as a choice,"
or as "going back to one's original orientation that is natural and not a choice"
(where the other conditions were not natural but were not chosen either).

This is based on faith in people's reports and interpretations.

Regardless if different people look at these changes as natural or unnatural,
the fact is that there are REPORTS of both people changing and people saying they could not change.

Examples: People Can Change - An alternative healing response to unwanted homosexual desires.
De Blasio s wife Chirlane McCray talks about lesbian past - NY Daily News
How To Defeat Homosexual Activists 101 A Real Education Page 4 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

3. NOTE: Because this is faith-based, and cannot be proven either way without more scientific research, where I find people can agree to avoid arguing is that these changes or conditions are SPIRITUALLY determined.

This is also completely faith-based, but at least it covers all the cases and interpretations,
and allows for explanations either way. People still report either changing or not changing.
There is no need to argue, if we can agree it is a spiritual process that determines if people change or not.

I enjoy reading your perspectives; always flavored with a sense of civility.

I question your assertion/your Implication that homosexuality can be altered/changed by a spiritual process since
spirituality is a broad concept with room for many perspectives. In general, it includes a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves, and it
typically involves a search for meaning in life. As such, it is a universal human experience—something that touches.

My question is who's spiritual process is used?

You'd be surprised what you can do to a person after torturing them with repetition, peer pressure, lack of sleep, food, and/or companionship.

 

[Michelle420]

It's behavioral.

I agree.

So you, Boss and others who agree its behavioral ...

Every morning, do you get out of bed and decide to be heterosexual?

Or, did you just decide once and that's good for life? Do you think you might change your mind and decide to be gay?

If you're gay, when did you decide to be gay?

For both gays and straights, what were your reasons for deciding your sexual identity?



There's more evidence that its genetic than it being a choice but the bottom line is still the same -

Its no one's business.

If one hates gays because it threatens their own sexual identity or they think its icky or they believe there is some religious taboo, then don't decide to be gay that day and decide to be gay the next day. Sure. Why not? If its a choice, then you can alternate if you want.

But, if what (editorial) "you" do is with another consenting adult, (editorial) "your" sexual choice is none of my business. Who you choose to marry is none of my business. What you're doing in your bedroom is none of my business.

If any of you believe your sexual identity and sexual activities are my business, why do you believe that?

So you, Boss and others who agree its behavioral ...

Every morning, do you get out of bed and decide to be heterosexual?

Behaviors are not always completely a matter of decision. No one wakes up and decides to be a psychopath. You don't get out of bed and decide you're going to have anorexia or schizophrenia.

Sexuality is behavioral, but as I stated, it is influenced by genetics and a lot of other things. Regardless of sexuality, the decision to act upon it is a conscious choice. That decision may also be influenced by many things.

A heterosexual person may have strong homosexual desires but chooses to keep them suppressed because of social pressure. They never act on these homosexual desires by choosing to engage in them... are they homosexual?

As for the entire argument about who's business what is.. My business is being part of a civil society where we are allowed to self-govern and establish the moral standards of the society we live in. You and I may disagree on where those boundaries are set, and I support your right to fight for your beliefs the same as myself. But don't try and tell me it's not my business.

Yeah to be fair some people do choose.

For those who are born heterosexual or born homosexual they are just born with that preference.

Either way, it's really individual imo.

This argument is not based on our "love" of people it's based on our fear of people.

My uncle was gay before he was murdered in 2004 when I was 16. I wanted to know him. It was always cool to find out that one has an uncle. My Dad was was hit hard enough by it. I loved him just like I did my other family. So, I am not afraid of gay people, I am simply not afraid to dig into what makes them gay. I have three friends on my facebook friends list who are gay, there was a show I watched all the way through to the last season that had a bisexual pair of young women.

I don't hate nor fear them whatsoever.

My response was more the to homophobia, that drove laws against homophobic behaviors, and thus led to current ingrains where people believe there is something very wrong with homophobic behavior. I know it's odd to think of homophobic behaviors as natural, but I put it to you that if you don't agree it's natural and you insist it's not based on homophobia, well then were does this view come from if not fear?

There is no harm done to you if someone exhibits homophobic behavior correct?

If you want to be homophobic in your thought go ahead. Shrug. Just don't allow your thought to make you behave barbaric Example: hate crimes, or allow you to discriminate and act out on your homophobia.

As the world view changes understand that people may not agree with you, I am sure you are fine with that.

I'm not homophobic, nor do I exhibit homosexual behavior. I like women.

My point is to the OP which seeks to determine if homosexual behavior is genetic or a choice. I just flipped it to homophobic behavior by comparison.

Well woudln't flipping it be, Is heterosexual behavior genetic or choice?

Homophobia behavior falls under acting on the dislike of the behavior.

be·hav·ior
bəˈhāvyər/
noun

1. the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially toward others.

 

[sealybobo]

1. Not genetic or not genetic alone, because studies on identical twins
do not show 100% match where the twins are the same orientation.
I think the chances are slightly over 50% of being the same orientation,
something like 53% to 47%. Since this is not random either, but there
is a slightly greater chance of matching orientations than not matching,
it could be argued that genetics may predict a "tendency" but that other factors are involved.

Source: "Homosexuality: Can it be healed" by Francis MacNutt

2. In some cases homosexuality may be able to change by choice to undergo spiritual therapy. If you look at real cases of people who changed, this can either be interpreted as "changing orientation as a choice,"
or as "going back to one's original orientation that is natural and not a choice"
(where the other conditions were not natural but were not chosen either).

This is based on faith in people's reports and interpretations.

Regardless if different people look at these changes as natural or unnatural,
the fact is that there are REPORTS of both people changing and people saying they could not change.

Examples: People Can Change - An alternative healing response to unwanted homosexual desires.
De Blasio s wife Chirlane McCray talks about lesbian past - NY Daily News
How To Defeat Homosexual Activists 101 A Real Education Page 4 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

3. NOTE: Because this is faith-based, and cannot be proven either way without more scientific research, where I find people can agree to avoid arguing is that these changes or conditions are SPIRITUALLY determined.

This is also completely faith-based, but at least it covers all the cases and interpretations,
and allows for explanations either way. People still report either changing or not changing.
There is no need to argue, if we can agree it is a spiritual process that determines if people change or not.

I enjoy reading your perspectives; always flavored with a sense of civility.

I question your assertion/your Implication that homosexuality can be altered/changed by a spiritual process since
spirituality is a broad concept with room for many perspectives. In general, it includes a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves, and it
typically involves a search for meaning in life. As such, it is a universal human experience—something that touches.

My question is who's spiritual process is used?

Gays believe in god. In fact some of them still want to be christians which blows my mind.

 

[Michelle420]

My uncle was gay before he was murdered in 2004 when I was 16. I wanted to know him. It was always cool to find out that one has an uncle. My Dad was was hit hard enough by it. I loved him just like I did my other family. So, I am not afraid of gay people, I am simply not afraid to dig into what makes them gay. I have three friends on my facebook friends list who are gay, there was a show I watched all the way through to the last season that had a bisexual pair of young women.

I don't hate nor fear them whatsoever.

My response was more the to homophobia, that drove laws against homophobic behaviors, and thus led to current ingrains where people believe there is something very wrong with homophobic behavior. I know it's odd to think of homophobic behaviors as natural, but I put it to you that if you don't agree it's natural and you insist it's not based on homophobia, well then were does this view come from if not fear?

There is no harm done to you if someone exhibits homophobic behavior correct?

Yea good point. Are homophobic born that way? I'm not homophobic. Is it a choice for me not to be homophobic but homophobes are born that way or the other way around? That's deep.

Ding ding ding... that's exactly where I was heading back in post #45. Homophobia can be a learned behavior, homophobic behavior may also be a learned behavior. I was taught to be a flaming homophobe back in the 60s and 70s. Those early ingrains are hard to overcome and how do you know if said ingrains are learned or... dna encoded proclivities?

Doesn't matter, a lot of things and life are learned behaviors including prayer. You don't have to like it. But if you are going to police a behavior then you will need to examine all of them.

Everything is socially constructed in society and depending on where you live in the world something taboo or something sacred may be viewed in exact opposition to what your own conditioning is.

What really matters here is whether you have the right to mistreat someone because you don't like who they are in love with or who they are attracted to.

Yes, we are in violent agreement.

I am not being violent, are you?

 

[RKMBrown]

It's behavioral.

I agree.

So you, Boss and others who agree its behavioral ...

Every morning, do you get out of bed and decide to be heterosexual?

Or, did you just decide once and that's good for life? Do you think you might change your mind and decide to be gay?

If you're gay, when did you decide to be gay?

For both gays and straights, what were your reasons for deciding your sexual identity?



There's more evidence that its genetic than it being a choice but the bottom line is still the same -

Its no one's business.

If one hates gays because it threatens their own sexual identity or they think its icky or they believe there is some religious taboo, then don't decide to be gay that day and decide to be gay the next day. Sure. Why not? If its a choice, then you can alternate if you want.

But, if what (editorial) "you" do is with another consenting adult, (editorial) "your" sexual choice is none of my business. Who you choose to marry is none of my business. What you're doing in your bedroom is none of my business.

If any of you believe your sexual identity and sexual activities are my business, why do you believe that?

So you, Boss and others who agree its behavioral ...

Every morning, do you get out of bed and decide to be heterosexual?

Behaviors are not always completely a matter of decision. No one wakes up and decides to be a psychopath. You don't get out of bed and decide you're going to have anorexia or schizophrenia.

Sexuality is behavioral, but as I stated, it is influenced by genetics and a lot of other things. Regardless of sexuality, the decision to act upon it is a conscious choice. That decision may also be influenced by many things.

A heterosexual person may have strong homosexual desires but chooses to keep them suppressed because of social pressure. They never act on these homosexual desires by choosing to engage in them... are they homosexual?

As for the entire argument about who's business what is.. My business is being part of a civil society where we are allowed to self-govern and establish the moral standards of the society we live in. You and I may disagree on where those boundaries are set, and I support your right to fight for your beliefs the same as myself. But don't try and tell me it's not my business.

Yeah to be fair some people do choose.

For those who are born heterosexual or born homosexual they are just born with that preference.

Either way, it's really all

This argument is not based on our "love" of people it's based on our fear of people.

My uncle was gay before he was murdered in 2004 when I was 16. I wanted to know him. It was always cool to find out that one has an uncle. My Dad was was hit hard enough by it. I loved him just like I did my other family. So, I am not afraid of gay people, I am simply not afraid to dig into what makes them gay. I have three friends on my facebook friends list who are gay, there was a show I watched all the way through to the last season that had a bisexual pair of young women.

I don't hate nor fear them whatsoever.

My response was more the to homophobia, that drove laws against homophobic behaviors, and thus led to current ingrains where people believe there is something very wrong with homophobic behavior. I know it's odd to think of homophobic behaviors as natural, but I put it to you that if you don't agree it's natural and you insist it's not based on homophobia, well then were does this view come from if not fear?

There is no harm done to you if someone exhibits homophobic behavior correct?

If you want to be homophobic in your thought go ahead. Shrug. Just don't allow your thought to make you behave barbaric Example: hate crimes, or allow you to discriminate and act out on your homophobia.

As the world view changes understand that people may not agree with you, I am sure you are fine with that.

I'm not homophobic, nor do I exhibit homosexual behavior. I like women.

My point is to the OP which seeks to determine if homosexual behavior is genetic or a choice. I just flipped it to homophobic behavior by comparison.

Well woudln't flipping it be, Is heterosexual behavior genetic or choice?

Homophobia behavior falls under acting on the dislike of the behavior.

be·hav·ior
bəˈhāvyər/
noun

1. the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially toward others.

That's one way to flip it but it attacks the majority view that has the self proclaimed benefit of species propagation for defense, and thus is rejected out of hand by too many in the majority as a stupid argument.

 

[Michelle420]

1. Not genetic or not genetic alone, because studies on identical twins
do not show 100% match where the twins are the same orientation.
I think the chances are slightly over 50% of being the same orientation,
something like 53% to 47%. Since this is not random either, but there
is a slightly greater chance of matching orientations than not matching,
it could be argued that genetics may predict a "tendency" but that other factors are involved.

Source: "Homosexuality: Can it be healed" by Francis MacNutt

2. In some cases homosexuality may be able to change by choice to undergo spiritual therapy. If you look at real cases of people who changed, this can either be interpreted as "changing orientation as a choice,"
or as "going back to one's original orientation that is natural and not a choice"
(where the other conditions were not natural but were not chosen either).

This is based on faith in people's reports and interpretations.

Regardless if different people look at these changes as natural or unnatural,
the fact is that there are REPORTS of both people changing and people saying they could not change.

Examples: People Can Change - An alternative healing response to unwanted homosexual desires.
De Blasio s wife Chirlane McCray talks about lesbian past - NY Daily News
How To Defeat Homosexual Activists 101 A Real Education Page 4 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

3. NOTE: Because this is faith-based, and cannot be proven either way without more scientific research, where I find people can agree to avoid arguing is that these changes or conditions are SPIRITUALLY determined.

This is also completely faith-based, but at least it covers all the cases and interpretations,
and allows for explanations either way. People still report either changing or not changing.
There is no need to argue, if we can agree it is a spiritual process that determines if people change or not.

I enjoy reading your perspectives; always flavored with a sense of civility.

I question your assertion/your Implication that homosexuality can be altered/changed by a spiritual process since
spirituality is a broad concept with room for many perspectives. In general, it includes a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves, and it
typically involves a search for meaning in life. As such, it is a universal human experience—something that touches.

My question is who's spiritual process is used?

Gays believe in god. In fact some of them still want to be christians which blows my mind.

Jesus loves everyone.

 

[RKMBrown]

My response was more the to homophobia, that drove laws against homophobic behaviors, and thus led to current ingrains where people believe there is something very wrong with homophobic behavior. I know it's odd to think of homophobic behaviors as natural, but I put it to you that if you don't agree it's natural and you insist it's not based on homophobia, well then were does this view come from if not fear?

There is no harm done to you if someone exhibits homophobic behavior correct?

Yea good point. Are homophobic born that way? I'm not homophobic. Is it a choice for me not to be homophobic but homophobes are born that way or the other way around? That's deep.

Ding ding ding... that's exactly where I was heading back in post #45. Homophobia can be a learned behavior, homophobic behavior may also be a learned behavior. I was taught to be a flaming homophobe back in the 60s and 70s. Those early ingrains are hard to overcome and how do you know if said ingrains are learned or... dna encoded proclivities?

Doesn't matter, a lot of things and life are learned behaviors including prayer. You don't have to like it. But if you are going to police a behavior then you will need to examine all of them.

Everything is socially constructed in society and depending on where you live in the world something taboo or something sacred may be viewed in exact opposition to what your own conditioning is.

What really matters here is whether you have the right to mistreat someone because you don't like who they are in love with or who they are attracted to.

Yes, we are in violent agreement.

I am not being violent, are you?

Not at the moment.

 

[Lilah]

1. Not genetic or not genetic alone, because studies on identical twins
do not show 100% match where the twins are the same orientation.
I think the chances are slightly over 50% of being the same orientation,
something like 53% to 47%. Since this is not random either, but there
is a slightly greater chance of matching orientations than not matching,
it could be argued that genetics may predict a "tendency" but that other factors are involved.

Source: "Homosexuality: Can it be healed" by Francis MacNutt

2. In some cases homosexuality may be able to change by choice to undergo spiritual therapy. If you look at real cases of people who changed, this can either be interpreted as "changing orientation as a choice,"
or as "going back to one's original orientation that is natural and not a choice"
(where the other conditions were not natural but were not chosen either).

This is based on faith in people's reports and interpretations.

Regardless if different people look at these changes as natural or unnatural,
the fact is that there are REPORTS of both people changing and people saying they could not change.

Examples: People Can Change - An alternative healing response to unwanted homosexual desires.
De Blasio s wife Chirlane McCray talks about lesbian past - NY Daily News
How To Defeat Homosexual Activists 101 A Real Education Page 4 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

3. NOTE: Because this is faith-based, and cannot be proven either way without more scientific research, where I find people can agree to avoid arguing is that these changes or conditions are SPIRITUALLY determined.

This is also completely faith-based, but at least it covers all the cases and interpretations,
and allows for explanations either way. People still report either changing or not changing.
There is no need to argue, if we can agree it is a spiritual process that determines if people change or not.

I enjoy reading your perspectives; always flavored with a sense of civility.

I question your assertion/your Implication that homosexuality can be altered/changed by a spiritual process since
spirituality is a broad concept with room for many perspectives. In general, it includes a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves, and it
typically involves a search for meaning in life. As such, it is a universal human experience—something that touches.

My question is who's spiritual process is used?

Gays believe in god. In fact some of them still want to be christians which blows my mind.

Jesus loves everyone.

But people don't.

 

[Lilah]

1. Not genetic or not genetic alone, because studies on identical twins
do not show 100% match where the twins are the same orientation.
I think the chances are slightly over 50% of being the same orientation,
something like 53% to 47%. Since this is not random either, but there
is a slightly greater chance of matching orientations than not matching,
it could be argued that genetics may predict a "tendency" but that other factors are involved.

Source: "Homosexuality: Can it be healed" by Francis MacNutt

2. In some cases homosexuality may be able to change by choice to undergo spiritual therapy. If you look at real cases of people who changed, this can either be interpreted as "changing orientation as a choice,"
or as "going back to one's original orientation that is natural and not a choice"
(where the other conditions were not natural but were not chosen either).

This is based on faith in people's reports and interpretations.

Regardless if different people look at these changes as natural or unnatural,
the fact is that there are REPORTS of both people changing and people saying they could not change.

Examples: People Can Change - An alternative healing response to unwanted homosexual desires.
De Blasio s wife Chirlane McCray talks about lesbian past - NY Daily News
How To Defeat Homosexual Activists 101 A Real Education Page 4 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

3. NOTE: Because this is faith-based, and cannot be proven either way without more scientific research, where I find people can agree to avoid arguing is that these changes or conditions are SPIRITUALLY determined.

This is also completely faith-based, but at least it covers all the cases and interpretations,
and allows for explanations either way. People still report either changing or not changing.
There is no need to argue, if we can agree it is a spiritual process that determines if people change or not.

I enjoy reading your perspectives; always flavored with a sense of civility.

I question your assertion/your Implication that homosexuality can be altered/changed by a spiritual process since
spirituality is a broad concept with room for many perspectives. In general, it includes a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves, and it
typically involves a search for meaning in life. As such, it is a universal human experience—something that touches.

My question is who's spiritual process is used?

Gays believe in god. In fact some of them still want to be christians which blows my mind.

Are you wanting to be a Christian?

 

[Michelle420]

It's behavioral.

I agree.

So you, Boss and others who agree its behavioral ...

Every morning, do you get out of bed and decide to be heterosexual?

Or, did you just decide once and that's good for life? Do you think you might change your mind and decide to be gay?

If you're gay, when did you decide to be gay?

For both gays and straights, what were your reasons for deciding your sexual identity?



There's more evidence that its genetic than it being a choice but the bottom line is still the same -

Its no one's business.

If one hates gays because it threatens their own sexual identity or they think its icky or they believe there is some religious taboo, then don't decide to be gay that day and decide to be gay the next day. Sure. Why not? If its a choice, then you can alternate if you want.

But, if what (editorial) "you" do is with another consenting adult, (editorial) "your" sexual choice is none of my business. Who you choose to marry is none of my business. What you're doing in your bedroom is none of my business.

If any of you believe your sexual identity and sexual activities are my business, why do you believe that?

So you, Boss and others who agree its behavioral ...

Every morning, do you get out of bed and decide to be heterosexual?

Behaviors are not always completely a matter of decision. No one wakes up and decides to be a psychopath. You don't get out of bed and decide you're going to have anorexia or schizophrenia.

Sexuality is behavioral, but as I stated, it is influenced by genetics and a lot of other things. Regardless of sexuality, the decision to act upon it is a conscious choice. That decision may also be influenced by many things.

A heterosexual person may have strong homosexual desires but chooses to keep them suppressed because of social pressure. They never act on these homosexual desires by choosing to engage in them... are they homosexual?

As for the entire argument about who's business what is.. My business is being part of a civil society where we are allowed to self-govern and establish the moral standards of the society we live in. You and I may disagree on where those boundaries are set, and I support your right to fight for your beliefs the same as myself. But don't try and tell me it's not my business.

Yeah to be fair some people do choose.

For those who are born heterosexual or born homosexual they are just born with that preference.

Either way, it's really all

My uncle was gay before he was murdered in 2004 when I was 16. I wanted to know him. It was always cool to find out that one has an uncle. My Dad was was hit hard enough by it. I loved him just like I did my other family. So, I am not afraid of gay people, I am simply not afraid to dig into what makes them gay. I have three friends on my facebook friends list who are gay, there was a show I watched all the way through to the last season that had a bisexual pair of young women.

I don't hate nor fear them whatsoever.

My response was more the to homophobia, that drove laws against homophobic behaviors, and thus led to current ingrains where people believe there is something very wrong with homophobic behavior. I know it's odd to think of homophobic behaviors as natural, but I put it to you that if you don't agree it's natural and you insist it's not based on homophobia, well then were does this view come from if not fear?

There is no harm done to you if someone exhibits homophobic behavior correct?

If you want to be homophobic in your thought go ahead. Shrug. Just don't allow your thought to make you behave barbaric Example: hate crimes, or allow you to discriminate and act out on your homophobia.

As the world view changes understand that people may not agree with you, I am sure you are fine with that.

I'm not homophobic, nor do I exhibit homosexual behavior. I like women.

My point is to the OP which seeks to determine if homosexual behavior is genetic or a choice. I just flipped it to homophobic behavior by comparison.

Well woudln't flipping it be, Is heterosexual behavior genetic or choice?

Homophobia behavior falls under acting on the dislike of the behavior.

be·hav·ior
bəˈhāvyər/
noun

1. the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially toward others.

That's one way to flip it but it attacks the majority view that has the self proclaimed benefit of species propagation for defense, and thus is rejected out of hand by too many in the majority as a stupid argument.

It was only the majority view because of the social construction at that time.

Slavery was once accepted by a majority view this was not genetic but rather a behavior the majority thought ok at the time.

Social construction gives the narrative and people indoctrinate.

Some people are born gay, some are born straight, some choose.

 

[emilynghiem]

1. Not genetic or not genetic alone, because studies on identical twins
do not show 100% match where the twins are the same orientation.
I think the chances are slightly over 50% of being the same orientation,
something like 53% to 47%. Since this is not random either, but there
is a slightly greater chance of matching orientations than not matching,
it could be argued that genetics may predict a "tendency" but that other factors are involved.

Source: "Homosexuality: Can it be healed" by Francis MacNutt

2. In some cases homosexuality may be able to change by choice to undergo spiritual therapy. If you look at real cases of people who changed, this can either be interpreted as "changing orientation as a choice,"
or as "going back to one's original orientation that is natural and not a choice"
(where the other conditions were not natural but were not chosen either).

This is based on faith in people's reports and interpretations.

Regardless if different people look at these changes as natural or unnatural,
the fact is that there are REPORTS of both people changing and people saying they could not change.

Examples: People Can Change - An alternative healing response to unwanted homosexual desires.
De Blasio s wife Chirlane McCray talks about lesbian past - NY Daily News
How To Defeat Homosexual Activists 101 A Real Education Page 4 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

3. NOTE: Because this is faith-based, and cannot be proven either way without more scientific research, where I find people can agree to avoid arguing is that these changes or conditions are SPIRITUALLY determined.

This is also completely faith-based, but at least it covers all the cases and interpretations,
and allows for explanations either way. People still report either changing or not changing.
There is no need to argue, if we can agree it is a spiritual process that determines if people change or not.

I enjoy reading your perspectives; always flavored with a sense of civility.

I question your assertion/your Implication that homosexuality can be altered/changed by a spiritual process since
spirituality is a broad concept with room for many perspectives. In general, it includes a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves, and it
typically involves a search for meaning in life. As such, it is a universal human experience—something that touches.

My question is who's spiritual process is used?

Hi Lilah the spiritual process is based on human nature.
So people use whatever version of that process they relate to.
Some use Buddhism some use Christianity or a mix of methods.

The common factor I found follows similar patterns, whether someone
comes out gay or transgender or straight: they identify which behavior or cultural conditions
are NOT natural or true to them. they work through the issues that conditioned this behavior.
And as they heal of the fears or conflicts, even abuses in some cases, then they
make peace with their natural selves. And this is where they can come out as gay or bi,
as transgender or heterosexual.

They forgive and heal of whatever conditions they felt were imposed on them
that aren't natural or true, and they come out with their natural being that is right for them.

 

[Michelle420]

Yea good point. Are homophobic born that way? I'm not homophobic. Is it a choice for me not to be homophobic but homophobes are born that way or the other way around? That's deep.

Ding ding ding... that's exactly where I was heading back in post #45. Homophobia can be a learned behavior, homophobic behavior may also be a learned behavior. I was taught to be a flaming homophobe back in the 60s and 70s. Those early ingrains are hard to overcome and how do you know if said ingrains are learned or... dna encoded proclivities?

Doesn't matter, a lot of things and life are learned behaviors including prayer. You don't have to like it. But if you are going to police a behavior then you will need to examine all of them.

Everything is socially constructed in society and depending on where you live in the world something taboo or something sacred may be viewed in exact opposition to what your own conditioning is.

What really matters here is whether you have the right to mistreat someone because you don't like who they are in love with or who they are attracted to.

Yes, we are in violent agreement.

I am not being violent, are you?

Not at the moment.

Nice behavior control, (pats you on the back)