Debate Now Prove your case! Is Homosexuality genetic or a choice?

[Boss]

If they are attracted to someone, why SHOULD they not act upon their urges (speaking of ADULTS only, of course)? If an adult man or woman is attracted to another adult man or woman, why should they not be able to pursue their own happiness?

Well, clearly we've established some boundaries and limitations to what is acceptable to society as a whole. We don't allow adults to mess with children... it doesn't matter how much they would desire to do so. Of course, given the amoral nature of society today, perhaps that's just a matter of time before we do away with that taboo as well? I mean, the ancient Greeks believed in having sex with kids... right?

But now, let's discuss this notion that someone is preventing men from having relationships with men... where is homosexuality being banned? I know that's the case across the radical middle east... but here in America, as far as I know, there is no ordinance on any books that prohibits homosexual relationships. Maybe that was the case 50 years ago... but it's completely dishonest to try and claim it's still the case today.

The issue of gay marriage is not about intolerance for gay people. Just like the issue of illegal immigration isn't about hatred of immigrants.... Pro-life is not about denying women rights. Objection to Obama's policies is not because you hate blacks... These are all false protests raised by activists in an attempt to persuade the debate. Assuming these false memes to be truths is ignorance and sheer intolerance. It's really as simple as that.

 

[ChrisL]

If they are attracted to someone, why SHOULD they not act upon their urges (speaking of ADULTS only, of course)? If an adult man or woman is attracted to another adult man or woman, why should they not be able to pursue their own happiness?

Well, clearly we've established some boundaries and limitations to what is acceptable to society as a whole. We don't allow adults to mess with children... it doesn't matter how much they would desire to do so. Of course, given the amoral nature of society today, perhaps that's just a matter of time before we do away with that taboo as well? I mean, the ancient Greeks believed in having sex with kids... right?

But now, let's discuss this notion that someone is preventing men from having relationships with men... where is homosexuality being banned? I know that's the case across the radical middle east... but here in America, as far as I know, there is no ordinance on any books that prohibits homosexual relationships. Maybe that was the case 50 years ago... but it's completely dishonest to try and claim it's still the case today.

The issue of gay marriage is not about intolerance for gay people. Just like the issue of illegal immigration isn't about hatred of immigrants.... Pro-life is not about denying women rights. Objection to Obama's policies is not because you hate blacks... These are all false protests raised by activists in an attempt to persuade the debate. Assuming these false memes to be truths is ignorance and sheer intolerance. It's really as simple as that.

What is all of this? I asked why you think an adult man or woman should not pursue a sexual relationship with another adult man or woman? If you don't care, then why would it matter whether it is genetic or a choice?

 

[Boss]

What is all of this? I asked why you think an adult man or woman should not pursue a sexual relationship with another adult man or woman? If you don't care, then why would it matter whether it is genetic or a choice?

I don't understand your question. I know a LOT of people that I don't pursue a sexual relationship with. Are you telling me you're not like that? Man, your dance card must be full!

The point that I made, which has now been buried under a mountain of shit... is that "homosexuality" is not genetic... it's a choice of action. You can be attracted to the same gender and choose to not act on that attraction... for whatever reason. How can someone BE a homosexual if they've never engaged in a homosexual act? It's like me saying I am a stock car driver even though I've never driven a stock car... just based on my desire to drive a stock car.

For the record, I believe all humans are born with a predisposition to be both hetero and homo... we're inclined to both to varying degrees. Some are more one than the other. But what we secretly fantasize about or desire sexually isn't always something we act upon and do. We might have all kinds of perverted little sexual fantasies rolling around in our heads and no one but us will ever know them.

To that regard, whenever people make the argument that homosexuals can't help the way they are... well that's just not true. That is saying a homosexual has no control over their sexual urges. Since no other deviate sexual behavior seems to be like that, I find it hard to believe homosexuality is some bizarre exception to the rule. I can understand they have the desire to be homosexual and they believe it's okay to engage in homosexual activity... and I don't have a problem with them doing so... but let's be honest, they don't HAVE to... it's a choice. People are able to subdue and control their sexual desires every single day.

But.... MAYBE you're not like that?

 

[Fair&Balanced]

What is all of this? I asked why you think an adult man or woman should not pursue a sexual relationship with another adult man or woman? If you don't care, then why would it matter whether it is genetic or a choice?

I don't understand your question. I know a LOT of people that I don't pursue a sexual relationship with. Are you telling me you're not like that? Man, your dance card must be full!

The point that I made, which has now been buried under a mountain of shit... is that "homosexuality" is not genetic... it's a choice of action. You can be attracted to the same gender and choose to not act on that attraction... for whatever reason. How can someone BE a homosexual if they've never engaged in a homosexual act? It's like me saying I am a stock car driver even though I've never driven a stock car... just based on my desire to drive a stock car.

For the record, I believe all humans are born with a predisposition to be both hetero and homo... we're inclined to both to varying degrees. Some are more one than the other. But what we secretly fantasize about or desire sexually isn't always something we act upon and do. We might have all kinds of perverted little sexual fantasies rolling around in our heads and no one but us will ever know them.

To that regard, whenever people make the argument that homosexuals can't help the way they are... well that's just not true. That is saying a homosexual has no control over their sexual urges. Since no other deviate sexual behavior seems to be like that, I find it hard to believe homosexuality is some bizarre exception to the rule. I can understand they have the desire to be homosexual and they believe it's okay to engage in homosexual activity... and I don't have a problem with them doing so... but let's be honest, they don't HAVE to... it's a choice. People are able to subdue and control their sexual desires every single day.

But.... MAYBE you're not like that?

What? you can be a non practicing homosexual, for lack of a better term.

 

[Fair&Balanced]

Homosexuals don't breed, hence genetic homosexuality is impossible.

Sterile people don't breed either, but certainly sterility can be genetic.

agreed. If ppl don't follow your logic, the studies on identical twins also show over and over there is no genetic determination, because otherwise the orientation of the twins would correspond 100% and it's not even close.

But the fact is, homosexuality is not a choice. NO ONE chooses to have a mental disorder.

nope not a fact in all cases Fair&Balanced in fact there are cases where it was a choice to change for some ppl. So it is even more open and subjective given that some ppl can change, and some can't. To some it was a choice and others it wasn't . Some have always identified that way, and some weren't naturally that way but their situation was caused or influenced externally by abuse. With most ppl that is not a choice, but if adults chose to abuse themselves and others then such cases have been able to change with spiritual healing therapy, while others are not. It depends, so how can public policy be made or enforced under threat of penalty when this remains a private faith based matter.

Shouldn't all beliefs about this be treated equally and let ppl form decisions on their own. How can govt possibly be expected to mediate a consensual policy on faith based beliefs, any more than the failure to come to a consensus on marriage policies when ppl continue to believe differently. How should govt be involved at all in spiritual faith based issues like these?

Well, first we must distinguish between the two.

First, there are homosexuals. Those who have a mental disorder and are compulsed to homosexuality. Then there are those who have for whatever reason chosen to have gay sex or even to be in a homosexual relationship, but could at any given time choose to enter into a heterosexual relationship. Those people are neither heterosexual nor homosexual, they just have sex with whomever they feel like having sex with at the time.

But the true homosexuals, who are compulsed to homosexuality? Yes, that is a mental disorder , whether genetic or not is up to debate.

Dear Fair&Balanced there are more cases and variations than that. Since this remains faith based conjecture, and it remains ppl personal choice, similar to ppl with cancer or manic depression chosing whether to seek treatment to change their situation or just live with it, then no amount of imposing categories justifies forcing them on ppl.

We can agree there are people who
* can change or want to change
* can't change or don't want to

If we can even agree these two groups BOTH exist and don't threaten the fact the other group exists, that's enough. We don't have to explain why or how these people are that way, and we don't all agree on the why's and how's anyway.

So if we agree not to fight about that, why not just acknowledge that yes some people can change and others either can't or don't have a need or desire to. Isn't that enough to stop imposing, and leave room for the rest to be decided personally in private by free choice instead of imposing publicly through laws and govt?

I am anti the government regulating sexuality. I don't care if people are gay.

 

[emilynghiem]

That's it. No fancy thesis, no viewpoint of my own (yet). All that lies here is a challenge to you the reader to prove the origins of homosexuality. Who here can make the more compelling case for their side?

The rules are as follows:

1. No ad hominem (personal attacks)
2. No mention of any political party (Conservative, Liberal, Democrat, Republican, et cetera).
3. No anti-Gay or anti-Christian commentary.
4. All arguments must be substantiated by citing credible and scientific sources.
5. No arguments based on emotional viewpoints.
6. No discussion regarding religious or non religious views of Homosexuality. Let the science (or your interpretation therein) do the talking.
7. Attempts to derail this thread will be actively reported to forum staff.
8. This thread will be governed under "Zone 1" regulations.

It's genetic. No amount of money would get me to want to make love to a dude. I don't find men attractive....ever. A gal with a nice behind sashays past though and I take notice.

Dear westwall
Orientation can be made in the womb without being genetic.
Studies on identical twins do not show 100% correspondence rate , so this is cited as proof it's not purely genetic but caused by other factors.
Studies on the brains show brains of gay males resemble those of heterosexual females, and the theory is that it could be chemical hormonal or neural changes in the womb while the brain is developing that could cause the crossing over in orientation or gender identity.

But no research has ever shown a genetic source, but on the contrary genetic research on twins has shown the opposite. Instead of 100% correspondence as genetic, the studies either show
* 10-14 % rate of correspondence according to one source
* 0 % in twins raised separately according to another source
* 50% according to a contested source that one poster here said has never been replicated
* or other sources citing slightly above 50% "at the most" which may show a tendency but is still not genetically determined.

Note 1: the 50% figures have been contested pending finding and citing the exact sources
Note 2: it can still be Spiritually determined like someone's faith as a theist nontheist Christian or nonchristian, which isn't genetic and may not be someone's choice what they believe or not.
I recommend legally treating orientation and identity as a Spiritually determined process so it has the same status as religion Creed or beliefs, and can neither be endorsed nor excluded by govt laws or institutions.

 

[emilynghiem]

IMO, (though no supporting evidence actually EXISTS - lol), I don't think it is a choice generally speaking. It may be in some cases when it comes to teens or young adults (over sexual confusion), but I don't think it is a "conscious" choice even in that case.

Can you control who you feel a sexual attraction to? No? Didn't think so.

But... Yes you can... people do this all the time. I am sure (because I see the porn sites) that some grown men are sexually attracted to adolescent teen girls. Do they ACT on that attraction (which would be illegal)? No... they control their urges and masturbate to porn images of their fantasy.

My sister was married to a guy who was turned on by transvestites. She doesn't think he was out there looking for trannies on the streets, but he maintained a robust collection of porn in that genre. People control their fantasies all the time without ever acting on them.

Now, maybe you can't really help what it is that turns you on... but you can control your actions. Or at least, most people can.

If they are attracted to someone, why SHOULD they not act upon their urges (speaking of ADULTS only, of course)? If an adult man or woman is attracted to another adult man or woman, why should they not be able to pursue their own happiness?

Dear ChrisL
If sex is not a natural consensual part of those two ppls relationship with each other, then having sex when the terms are not mutual can still result in sexual abuse, relationship abuse, emotional and mental abuse, problems with other ppl who may be indirectly affected, etc.

I have a friend who has convinced himself that I need to have sex with him. Feeding into whatever false conditions or expectations is already risking damaging the relationship.
He thinks he can insult bully and guilt trip me into doing things his way insisting he knows what he's talking about and I dont.

So imagine if an insecure person went along with someone pressuring them to have sex. How disastrous would that be. Ppl who ate attracted to each other sexually may Think It's consensual, but Don't Agree on Terms or Limits On The RELATIONSHIP So It Blows up in their faces. Not a good idea. It ends up being relationship abuse.

That's why I would recommend resolving issues first before deciding to have sex. So much abuse can be prevented if ppl didn't just jump in so quickly only to regret later they didn't know or agree what they were getting into.

 

[westwall]

That's it. No fancy thesis, no viewpoint of my own (yet). All that lies here is a challenge to you the reader to prove the origins of homosexuality. Who here can make the more compelling case for their side?

The rules are as follows:

1. No ad hominem (personal attacks)
2. No mention of any political party (Conservative, Liberal, Democrat, Republican, et cetera).
3. No anti-Gay or anti-Christian commentary.
4. All arguments must be substantiated by citing credible and scientific sources.
5. No arguments based on emotional viewpoints.
6. No discussion regarding religious or non religious views of Homosexuality. Let the science (or your interpretation therein) do the talking.
7. Attempts to derail this thread will be actively reported to forum staff.
8. This thread will be governed under "Zone 1" regulations.

It's genetic. No amount of money would get me to want to make love to a dude. I don't find men attractive....ever. A gal with a nice behind sashays past though and I take notice.

Dear westwall
Orientation can be made in the womb without being genetic.
Studies on identical twins do not show 100% correspondence rate , so this is cited as proof it's not purely genetic but caused by other factors.
Studies on the brains show brains of gay males resemble those of heterosexual females, and the theory is that it could be chemical hormonal or neural changes in the womb while the brain is developing that could cause the crossing over in orientation or gender identity.

But no research has ever shown a genetic source, but on the contrary genetic research on twins has shown the opposite. Instead of 100% correspondence as genetic, the studies either show
* 10-14 % rate of correspondence according to one source
* 0 % in twins raised separately according to another source
* 50% according to a contested source that one poster here said has never been replicated
* or other sources citing slightly above 50% "at the most" which may show a tendency but is still not genetically determined.

Note 1: the 50% figures have been contested pending finding and citing the exact sources
Note 2: it can still be Spiritually determined like someone's faith as a theist nontheist Christian or nonchristian, which isn't genetic and may not be someone's choice what they believe or not.
I recommend legally treating orientation and identity as a Spiritually determined process so it has the same status as religion Creed or beliefs, and can neither be endorsed nor excluded by govt laws or institutions.

If it happens in the womb, it's genetic. There is no outside environmental cause. Like I said, I am not attracted to men, there is no choice involved. It is fact, it is biology. My sister, who is lesbian, feels the exact same way. There is no amount of money that you could pay her to get her to sleep with a man, much less have sex with one.

Some people are desperate enough to have sex for money with the same gender, some people are naturally bisexual, regardless of a person's sexual inclination the fact remains that it is not "learned" behavior in the vast majority of cases.

It is ingrained within their very being.

 

[emilynghiem]

That's it. No fancy thesis, no viewpoint of my own (yet). All that lies here is a challenge to you the reader to prove the origins of homosexuality. Who here can make the more compelling case for their side?

The rules are as follows:

1. No ad hominem (personal attacks)
2. No mention of any political party (Conservative, Liberal, Democrat, Republican, et cetera).
3. No anti-Gay or anti-Christian commentary.
4. All arguments must be substantiated by citing credible and scientific sources.
5. No arguments based on emotional viewpoints.
6. No discussion regarding religious or non religious views of Homosexuality. Let the science (or your interpretation therein) do the talking.
7. Attempts to derail this thread will be actively reported to forum staff.
8. This thread will be governed under "Zone 1" regulations.

It's genetic. No amount of money would get me to want to make love to a dude. I don't find men attractive....ever. A gal with a nice behind sashays past though and I take notice.

Dear westwall
Orientation can be made in the womb without being genetic.
Studies on identical twins do not show 100% correspondence rate , so this is cited as proof it's not purely genetic but caused by other factors.
Studies on the brains show brains of gay males resemble those of heterosexual females, and the theory is that it could be chemical hormonal or neural changes in the womb while the brain is developing that could cause the crossing over in orientation or gender identity.

But no research has ever shown a genetic source, but on the contrary genetic research on twins has shown the opposite. Instead of 100% correspondence as genetic, the studies either show
* 10-14 % rate of correspondence according to one source
* 0 % in twins raised separately according to another source
* 50% according to a contested source that one poster here said has never been replicated
* or other sources citing slightly above 50% "at the most" which may show a tendency but is still not genetically determined.

Note 1: the 50% figures have been contested pending finding and citing the exact sources
Note 2: it can still be Spiritually determined like someone's faith as a theist nontheist Christian or nonchristian, which isn't genetic and may not be someone's choice what they believe or not.
I recommend legally treating orientation and identity as a Spiritually determined process so it has the same status as religion Creed or beliefs, and can neither be endorsed nor excluded by govt laws or institutions.

If it happens in the womb, it's genetic. There is no outside environmental cause. Like I said, I am not attracted to men, there is no choice involved. It is fact, it is biology. My sister, who is lesbian, feels the exact same way. There is no amount of money that you could pay her to get her to sleep with a man, much less have sex with one.

Some people are desperate enough to have sex for money with the same gender, some people are naturally bisexual, regardless of a person's sexual inclination the fact remains that it is not "learned" behavior in the vast majority of cases.

It is ingrained within their very being.

Dear westwall, I think the term is CONGENITAL not genetic
for when it happens in the womb.

A. it's not like RACE that is technically determined BEFORE birth, and to some degree even before conception. If those two parents get together, that already determines the gene pool they are limited to in producing children.

B. Orientation/gender identity, even if developed in the womb and/or specifically in the brain "AFTER the genetics of the individual has already been determined AT CONCEPTION" can still change IN SOME CASES, (unlike RACE that can never change because it is already genetically determined and limited to the chromosomes/DNA from both parents.)

Do you see the difference?
I think you mean CONGENITAL.

(and NO this does NOT apply to people who report homosexual attractions caused by "sexual abuse after they were born" where one they HEALED of the abuse some of these people are able to CHANGE that orientation to their natural born heterosexual identity. So there ARE cases where the homosexuality was STILL NOT A CHOICE but wasn't caused during or before birth.)

 

[ChrisL]

What is all of this? I asked why you think an adult man or woman should not pursue a sexual relationship with another adult man or woman? If you don't care, then why would it matter whether it is genetic or a choice?

I don't understand your question. I know a LOT of people that I don't pursue a sexual relationship with. Are you telling me you're not like that? Man, your dance card must be full!

The point that I made, which has now been buried under a mountain of shit... is that "homosexuality" is not genetic... it's a choice of action. You can be attracted to the same gender and choose to not act on that attraction... for whatever reason. How can someone BE a homosexual if they've never engaged in a homosexual act? It's like me saying I am a stock car driver even though I've never driven a stock car... just based on my desire to drive a stock car.

For the record, I believe all humans are born with a predisposition to be both hetero and homo... we're inclined to both to varying degrees. Some are more one than the other. But what we secretly fantasize about or desire sexually isn't always something we act upon and do. We might have all kinds of perverted little sexual fantasies rolling around in our heads and no one but us will ever know them.

To that regard, whenever people make the argument that homosexuals can't help the way they are... well that's just not true. That is saying a homosexual has no control over their sexual urges. Since no other deviate sexual behavior seems to be like that, I find it hard to believe homosexuality is some bizarre exception to the rule. I can understand they have the desire to be homosexual and they believe it's okay to engage in homosexual activity... and I don't have a problem with them doing so... but let's be honest, they don't HAVE to... it's a choice. People are able to subdue and control their sexual desires every single day.

But.... MAYBE you're not like that?

Maybe I'm not like WHAT? What is it you are trying to babble out here? Are you calling me a slut or something? Lol. Good grief. How pathetic.

Anyhow, none of your babbles above answer the question. Let me make it clear for you. What is the reason why two adults who are sexually attracted to one another should NOT pursue a relationship?

 

[ChrisL]

IMO, (though no supporting evidence actually EXISTS - lol), I don't think it is a choice generally speaking. It may be in some cases when it comes to teens or young adults (over sexual confusion), but I don't think it is a "conscious" choice even in that case.

Can you control who you feel a sexual attraction to? No? Didn't think so.

But... Yes you can... people do this all the time. I am sure (because I see the porn sites) that some grown men are sexually attracted to adolescent teen girls. Do they ACT on that attraction (which would be illegal)? No... they control their urges and masturbate to porn images of their fantasy.

My sister was married to a guy who was turned on by transvestites. She doesn't think he was out there looking for trannies on the streets, but he maintained a robust collection of porn in that genre. People control their fantasies all the time without ever acting on them.

Now, maybe you can't really help what it is that turns you on... but you can control your actions. Or at least, most people can.

If they are attracted to someone, why SHOULD they not act upon their urges (speaking of ADULTS only, of course)? If an adult man or woman is attracted to another adult man or woman, why should they not be able to pursue their own happiness?

Dear ChrisL
If sex is not a natural consensual part of those two ppls relationship with each other, then having sex when the terms are not mutual can still result in sexual abuse, relationship abuse, emotional and mental abuse, problems with other ppl who may be indirectly affected, etc.

I have a friend who has convinced himself that I need to have sex with him. Feeding into whatever false conditions or expectations is already risking damaging the relationship.
He thinks he can insult bully and guilt trip me into doing things his way insisting he knows what he's talking about and I dont.

So imagine if an insecure person went along with someone pressuring them to have sex. How disastrous would that be. Ppl who ate attracted to each other sexually may Think It's consensual, but Don't Agree on Terms or Limits On The RELATIONSHIP So It Blows up in their faces. Not a good idea. It ends up being relationship abuse.

That's why I would recommend resolving issues first before deciding to have sex. So much abuse can be prevented if ppl didn't just jump in so quickly only to regret later they didn't know or agree what they were getting into.

Sorry. I have no idea what you are talking about. I am talking about two consenting adults entering into a sexual relationship. You have gone of into left field, talking about things I never mentioned.

 

[westwall]

That's it. No fancy thesis, no viewpoint of my own (yet). All that lies here is a challenge to you the reader to prove the origins of homosexuality. Who here can make the more compelling case for their side?

The rules are as follows:

1. No ad hominem (personal attacks)
2. No mention of any political party (Conservative, Liberal, Democrat, Republican, et cetera).
3. No anti-Gay or anti-Christian commentary.
4. All arguments must be substantiated by citing credible and scientific sources.
5. No arguments based on emotional viewpoints.
6. No discussion regarding religious or non religious views of Homosexuality. Let the science (or your interpretation therein) do the talking.
7. Attempts to derail this thread will be actively reported to forum staff.
8. This thread will be governed under "Zone 1" regulations.

It's genetic. No amount of money would get me to want to make love to a dude. I don't find men attractive....ever. A gal with a nice behind sashays past though and I take notice.

Dear westwall
Orientation can be made in the womb without being genetic.
Studies on identical twins do not show 100% correspondence rate , so this is cited as proof it's not purely genetic but caused by other factors.
Studies on the brains show brains of gay males resemble those of heterosexual females, and the theory is that it could be chemical hormonal or neural changes in the womb while the brain is developing that could cause the crossing over in orientation or gender identity.

But no research has ever shown a genetic source, but on the contrary genetic research on twins has shown the opposite. Instead of 100% correspondence as genetic, the studies either show
* 10-14 % rate of correspondence according to one source
* 0 % in twins raised separately according to another source
* 50% according to a contested source that one poster here said has never been replicated
* or other sources citing slightly above 50% "at the most" which may show a tendency but is still not genetically determined.

Note 1: the 50% figures have been contested pending finding and citing the exact sources
Note 2: it can still be Spiritually determined like someone's faith as a theist nontheist Christian or nonchristian, which isn't genetic and may not be someone's choice what they believe or not.
I recommend legally treating orientation and identity as a Spiritually determined process so it has the same status as religion Creed or beliefs, and can neither be endorsed nor excluded by govt laws or institutions.

If it happens in the womb, it's genetic. There is no outside environmental cause. Like I said, I am not attracted to men, there is no choice involved. It is fact, it is biology. My sister, who is lesbian, feels the exact same way. There is no amount of money that you could pay her to get her to sleep with a man, much less have sex with one.

Some people are desperate enough to have sex for money with the same gender, some people are naturally bisexual, regardless of a person's sexual inclination the fact remains that it is not "learned" behavior in the vast majority of cases.

It is ingrained within their very being.

Dear westwall, I think the term is CONGENITAL not genetic
for when it happens in the womb.

A. it's not like RACE that is technically determined BEFORE birth, and to some degree even before conception. If those two parents get together, that already determines the gene pool they are limited to in producing children.

B. Orientation/gender identity, even if developed in the womb and/or specifically in the brain "AFTER the genetics of the individual has already been determined AT CONCEPTION" can still change IN SOME CASES, (unlike RACE that can never change because it is already genetically determined and limited to the chromosomes/DNA from both parents.)

Do you see the difference?
I think you mean CONGENITAL.

(and NO this does NOT apply to people who report homosexual attractions caused by "sexual abuse after they were born" where one they HEALED of the abuse some of these people are able to CHANGE that orientation to their natural born heterosexual identity. So there ARE cases where the homosexuality was STILL NOT A CHOICE but wasn't caused during or before birth.)

Yes, I understand the semantics, and the science, and I also understand that the wiggling doesn't matter. Sexual orientation is not a choice.

 

[emilynghiem]

IMO, (though no supporting evidence actually EXISTS - lol), I don't think it is a choice generally speaking. It may be in some cases when it comes to teens or young adults (over sexual confusion), but I don't think it is a "conscious" choice even in that case.

Can you control who you feel a sexual attraction to? No? Didn't think so.

But... Yes you can... people do this all the time. I am sure (because I see the porn sites) that some grown men are sexually attracted to adolescent teen girls. Do they ACT on that attraction (which would be illegal)? No... they control their urges and masturbate to porn images of their fantasy.

My sister was married to a guy who was turned on by transvestites. She doesn't think he was out there looking for trannies on the streets, but he maintained a robust collection of porn in that genre. People control their fantasies all the time without ever acting on them.

Now, maybe you can't really help what it is that turns you on... but you can control your actions. Or at least, most people can.

If they are attracted to someone, why SHOULD they not act upon their urges (speaking of ADULTS only, of course)? If an adult man or woman is attracted to another adult man or woman, why should they not be able to pursue their own happiness?

Dear ChrisL
If sex is not a natural consensual part of those two ppls relationship with each other, then having sex when the terms are not mutual can still result in sexual abuse, relationship abuse, emotional and mental abuse, problems with other ppl who may be indirectly affected, etc.

I have a friend who has convinced himself that I need to have sex with him. Feeding into whatever false conditions or expectations is already risking damaging the relationship.
He thinks he can insult bully and guilt trip me into doing things his way insisting he knows what he's talking about and I dont.

So imagine if an insecure person went along with someone pressuring them to have sex. How disastrous would that be. Ppl who ate attracted to each other sexually may Think It's consensual, but Don't Agree on Terms or Limits On The RELATIONSHIP So It Blows up in their faces. Not a good idea. It ends up being relationship abuse.

That's why I would recommend resolving issues first before deciding to have sex. So much abuse can be prevented if ppl didn't just jump in so quickly only to regret later they didn't know or agree what they were getting into.

Sorry. I have no idea what you are talking about. I am talking about two consenting adults entering into a sexual relationship. You have gone of into left field, talking about things I never mentioned.

I am answering your question ChrisL

Two adults can be consenting and interested in sex,
yet it can still be "not in their best interests" and damaging
to their relationship to have sex.

If it is abusive or outside the natural course of that relationship,
then even if they both want to have sex, it would be better to
refrain if it will cause more problems.

One common example, is if one partner is newly divorced or leaving a longterm relationship, it may not be the best timing to jump into another
intimate relationship too soon. Also if people aren't ready to have children, and want to make sure there is no "accidental pregnancy"
then abstinence is the only surefire way to prevent that.
So even if wanting and agreeing to sex between them is consensual,
that doesn't mean they should necessarily act on it.

 

[ChrisL]

IMO, (though no supporting evidence actually EXISTS - lol), I don't think it is a choice generally speaking. It may be in some cases when it comes to teens or young adults (over sexual confusion), but I don't think it is a "conscious" choice even in that case.

Can you control who you feel a sexual attraction to? No? Didn't think so.

But... Yes you can... people do this all the time. I am sure (because I see the porn sites) that some grown men are sexually attracted to adolescent teen girls. Do they ACT on that attraction (which would be illegal)? No... they control their urges and masturbate to porn images of their fantasy.

My sister was married to a guy who was turned on by transvestites. She doesn't think he was out there looking for trannies on the streets, but he maintained a robust collection of porn in that genre. People control their fantasies all the time without ever acting on them.

Now, maybe you can't really help what it is that turns you on... but you can control your actions. Or at least, most people can.

If they are attracted to someone, why SHOULD they not act upon their urges (speaking of ADULTS only, of course)? If an adult man or woman is attracted to another adult man or woman, why should they not be able to pursue their own happiness?

Dear ChrisL
If sex is not a natural consensual part of those two ppls relationship with each other, then having sex when the terms are not mutual can still result in sexual abuse, relationship abuse, emotional and mental abuse, problems with other ppl who may be indirectly affected, etc.

I have a friend who has convinced himself that I need to have sex with him. Feeding into whatever false conditions or expectations is already risking damaging the relationship.
He thinks he can insult bully and guilt trip me into doing things his way insisting he knows what he's talking about and I dont.

So imagine if an insecure person went along with someone pressuring them to have sex. How disastrous would that be. Ppl who ate attracted to each other sexually may Think It's consensual, but Don't Agree on Terms or Limits On The RELATIONSHIP So It Blows up in their faces. Not a good idea. It ends up being relationship abuse.

That's why I would recommend resolving issues first before deciding to have sex. So much abuse can be prevented if ppl didn't just jump in so quickly only to regret later they didn't know or agree what they were getting into.

Sorry. I have no idea what you are talking about. I am talking about two consenting adults entering into a sexual relationship. You have gone of into left field, talking about things I never mentioned.

I am answering your question ChrisL

Two adults can be consenting and interested in sex,
yet it can still be "not in their best interests" and damaging
to their relationship to have sex.

If it is abusive or outside the natural course of that relationship,
then even if they both want to have sex, it would be better to
refrain if it will cause more problems.

One common example, is if one partner is newly divorced or leaving a longterm relationship, it may not be the best timing to jump into another
intimate relationship too soon. Also if people aren't ready to have children, and want to make sure there is no "accidental pregnancy"
then abstinence is the only surefire way to prevent that.
So even if wanting and agreeing to sex between them is consensual,
that doesn't mean they should necessarily act on it.

My question has nothing to do with abuse or any of those things that you mention above though. You are avoiding my direct question by bringing in extenuating circumstances. Extenuating circumstances aside, the question is simple actually. If two consenting adults have a sexual attraction to one another and they are of the SAME sex, what is the reason you would oppose them deciding, as adults, to have a consensual sexual relationship?

 

[emilynghiem]

That's it. No fancy thesis, no viewpoint of my own (yet). All that lies here is a challenge to you the reader to prove the origins of homosexuality. Who here can make the more compelling case for their side?

The rules are as follows:

1. No ad hominem (personal attacks)
2. No mention of any political party (Conservative, Liberal, Democrat, Republican, et cetera).
3. No anti-Gay or anti-Christian commentary.
4. All arguments must be substantiated by citing credible and scientific sources.
5. No arguments based on emotional viewpoints.
6. No discussion regarding religious or non religious views of Homosexuality. Let the science (or your interpretation therein) do the talking.
7. Attempts to derail this thread will be actively reported to forum staff.
8. This thread will be governed under "Zone 1" regulations.

It's genetic. No amount of money would get me to want to make love to a dude. I don't find men attractive....ever. A gal with a nice behind sashays past though and I take notice.

Dear westwall
Orientation can be made in the womb without being genetic.
Studies on identical twins do not show 100% correspondence rate , so this is cited as proof it's not purely genetic but caused by other factors.
Studies on the brains show brains of gay males resemble those of heterosexual females, and the theory is that it could be chemical hormonal or neural changes in the womb while the brain is developing that could cause the crossing over in orientation or gender identity.

But no research has ever shown a genetic source, but on the contrary genetic research on twins has shown the opposite. Instead of 100% correspondence as genetic, the studies either show
* 10-14 % rate of correspondence according to one source
* 0 % in twins raised separately according to another source
* 50% according to a contested source that one poster here said has never been replicated
* or other sources citing slightly above 50% "at the most" which may show a tendency but is still not genetically determined.

Note 1: the 50% figures have been contested pending finding and citing the exact sources
Note 2: it can still be Spiritually determined like someone's faith as a theist nontheist Christian or nonchristian, which isn't genetic and may not be someone's choice what they believe or not.
I recommend legally treating orientation and identity as a Spiritually determined process so it has the same status as religion Creed or beliefs, and can neither be endorsed nor excluded by govt laws or institutions.

If it happens in the womb, it's genetic. There is no outside environmental cause. Like I said, I am not attracted to men, there is no choice involved. It is fact, it is biology. My sister, who is lesbian, feels the exact same way. There is no amount of money that you could pay her to get her to sleep with a man, much less have sex with one.

Some people are desperate enough to have sex for money with the same gender, some people are naturally bisexual, regardless of a person's sexual inclination the fact remains that it is not "learned" behavior in the vast majority of cases.

It is ingrained within their very being.

Dear westwall, I think the term is CONGENITAL not genetic
for when it happens in the womb.

A. it's not like RACE that is technically determined BEFORE birth, and to some degree even before conception. If those two parents get together, that already determines the gene pool they are limited to in producing children.

B. Orientation/gender identity, even if developed in the womb and/or specifically in the brain "AFTER the genetics of the individual has already been determined AT CONCEPTION" can still change IN SOME CASES, (unlike RACE that can never change because it is already genetically determined and limited to the chromosomes/DNA from both parents.)

Do you see the difference?
I think you mean CONGENITAL.

(and NO this does NOT apply to people who report homosexual attractions caused by "sexual abuse after they were born" where one they HEALED of the abuse some of these people are able to CHANGE that orientation to their natural born heterosexual identity. So there ARE cases where the homosexuality was STILL NOT A CHOICE but wasn't caused during or before birth.)

Yes, I understand the semantics, and the science, and I also understand that the wiggling doesn't matter. Sexual orientation is not a choice.

Dear westwall
Sure you and I can agree it is not a choice.
But that still does not justify imposing govt policies based on this.
It is NOT the same as gender/race that is determined by genetics.

the problem is westwall
people don't BELIEVE the same, and neither side's BELIEFS
are PROVEN OR DISPROVEN BY SCIENCE.

There ARE cases where people could change, even though
neither the orientation before or the orientation after was a choice.
The choice they had was to make peace with whatever they turn out to be.

So because it remains UNPROVEN either way, westwall,
then it is still FAITH BASED.

This belief it is not a choice is equally faith based
as believing in Jesus or God, or that good conquers bad.

Not proven. These are beliefs, and since other people don't
believe agree or consent to these beliefs,
then govt CANNOT be abused to endorse or force beliefs on others.

So this must remain a free choice to decide what to believe
in which cases.

Even if it isn't someone's choice, this cannot be proven.

 

[rightwinger]

Homosexuality is caused by:

1. Watching Teletubbies when you are little
2. Listening to show tunes
3. Having too many sisters who like to play dress up
4. Too many Judy Garland, Marylyn Monroe, Cher and Madonna posters
5. Not playing manly sports like Football and Hockey

 

[emilynghiem]

But... Yes you can... people do this all the time. I am sure (because I see the porn sites) that some grown men are sexually attracted to adolescent teen girls. Do they ACT on that attraction (which would be illegal)? No... they control their urges and masturbate to porn images of their fantasy.

My sister was married to a guy who was turned on by transvestites. She doesn't think he was out there looking for trannies on the streets, but he maintained a robust collection of porn in that genre. People control their fantasies all the time without ever acting on them.

Now, maybe you can't really help what it is that turns you on... but you can control your actions. Or at least, most people can.

If they are attracted to someone, why SHOULD they not act upon their urges (speaking of ADULTS only, of course)? If an adult man or woman is attracted to another adult man or woman, why should they not be able to pursue their own happiness?

Dear ChrisL
If sex is not a natural consensual part of those two ppls relationship with each other, then having sex when the terms are not mutual can still result in sexual abuse, relationship abuse, emotional and mental abuse, problems with other ppl who may be indirectly affected, etc.

I have a friend who has convinced himself that I need to have sex with him. Feeding into whatever false conditions or expectations is already risking damaging the relationship.
He thinks he can insult bully and guilt trip me into doing things his way insisting he knows what he's talking about and I dont.

So imagine if an insecure person went along with someone pressuring them to have sex. How disastrous would that be. Ppl who ate attracted to each other sexually may Think It's consensual, but Don't Agree on Terms or Limits On The RELATIONSHIP So It Blows up in their faces. Not a good idea. It ends up being relationship abuse.

That's why I would recommend resolving issues first before deciding to have sex. So much abuse can be prevented if ppl didn't just jump in so quickly only to regret later they didn't know or agree what they were getting into.

Sorry. I have no idea what you are talking about. I am talking about two consenting adults entering into a sexual relationship. You have gone of into left field, talking about things I never mentioned.

I am answering your question ChrisL

Two adults can be consenting and interested in sex,
yet it can still be "not in their best interests" and damaging
to their relationship to have sex.

If it is abusive or outside the natural course of that relationship,
then even if they both want to have sex, it would be better to
refrain if it will cause more problems.

One common example, is if one partner is newly divorced or leaving a longterm relationship, it may not be the best timing to jump into another
intimate relationship too soon. Also if people aren't ready to have children, and want to make sure there is no "accidental pregnancy"
then abstinence is the only surefire way to prevent that.
So even if wanting and agreeing to sex between them is consensual,
that doesn't mean they should necessarily act on it.

My question has nothing to do with abuse or any of those things that you mention above though. You are avoiding my direct question by bringing in extenuating circumstances. Extenuating circumstances aside, the question is simple actually. If two consenting adults have a sexual attraction to one another and they are of the SAME sex, what is the reason you would oppose them deciding, as adults, to have a consensual sexual relationship?

ChrisL I explained it:
if the sex would be abusing their relationship and causing them
problems, I would not "impose or oppose" FOR THEM, but
I would recommend they respect THEIR limits and not act on the
sexual attraction if it's not right for their relationship.

For example, I have met people who were SPIRITUALLY attracted to each other and it comes across as sexual attraction, But if they are not the longterm partners for each other, and it would only be temporary,
they may opt OUT of having sex if it's just a stepping stone to get to a longer term relationship with other partners instead. That's one case.

ChrisL I don't see how you can make up "one rule" for all people anyway, are you kidding me? If I were a marriage counselor, I would counsel the couple to decide what is RIGHT for their RELATIONSHIP.

So if sex isn't right for them, even if they would normally consent and both want this, then it is UP TO THEM to decide that. I would just encourage and urge them to work it all out and make sure they act in the best interests of their relationship, and don't have sex if it's not the best idea.

It's up to THEM, depending on what their spiritual relationship is
and how they are meant to act on it. Does that answer your question?

 

[ChrisL]

If they are attracted to someone, why SHOULD they not act upon their urges (speaking of ADULTS only, of course)? If an adult man or woman is attracted to another adult man or woman, why should they not be able to pursue their own happiness?

Dear ChrisL
If sex is not a natural consensual part of those two ppls relationship with each other, then having sex when the terms are not mutual can still result in sexual abuse, relationship abuse, emotional and mental abuse, problems with other ppl who may be indirectly affected, etc.

I have a friend who has convinced himself that I need to have sex with him. Feeding into whatever false conditions or expectations is already risking damaging the relationship.
He thinks he can insult bully and guilt trip me into doing things his way insisting he knows what he's talking about and I dont.

So imagine if an insecure person went along with someone pressuring them to have sex. How disastrous would that be. Ppl who ate attracted to each other sexually may Think It's consensual, but Don't Agree on Terms or Limits On The RELATIONSHIP So It Blows up in their faces. Not a good idea. It ends up being relationship abuse.

That's why I would recommend resolving issues first before deciding to have sex. So much abuse can be prevented if ppl didn't just jump in so quickly only to regret later they didn't know or agree what they were getting into.

Sorry. I have no idea what you are talking about. I am talking about two consenting adults entering into a sexual relationship. You have gone of into left field, talking about things I never mentioned.

I am answering your question ChrisL

Two adults can be consenting and interested in sex,
yet it can still be "not in their best interests" and damaging
to their relationship to have sex.

If it is abusive or outside the natural course of that relationship,
then even if they both want to have sex, it would be better to
refrain if it will cause more problems.

One common example, is if one partner is newly divorced or leaving a longterm relationship, it may not be the best timing to jump into another
intimate relationship too soon. Also if people aren't ready to have children, and want to make sure there is no "accidental pregnancy"
then abstinence is the only surefire way to prevent that.
So even if wanting and agreeing to sex between them is consensual,
that doesn't mean they should necessarily act on it.

My question has nothing to do with abuse or any of those things that you mention above though. You are avoiding my direct question by bringing in extenuating circumstances. Extenuating circumstances aside, the question is simple actually. If two consenting adults have a sexual attraction to one another and they are of the SAME sex, what is the reason you would oppose them deciding, as adults, to have a consensual sexual relationship?

ChrisL I explained it:
if the sex would be abusing their relationship and causing them
problems, I would not "impose or oppose" FOR THEM, but
I would recommend they respect THEIR limits and not act on the
sexual attraction if it's not right for their relationship.

For example, I have met people who were SPIRITUALLY attracted to each other and it comes across as sexual attraction, But if they are not the longterm partners for each other, and it would only be temporary,
they may opt OUT of having sex if it's just a stepping stone to get to a longer term relationship with other partners instead. That's one case.

ChrisL I don't see how you can make up "one rule" for all people anyway, are you kidding me? If I were a marriage counselor, I would counsel the couple to decide what is RIGHT for their RELATIONSHIP.

So if sex isn't right for them, even if they would normally consent and both want this, then it is UP TO THEM to decide that. I would just encourage and urge them to work it all out and make sure they act in the best interests of their relationship, and don't have sex if it's not the best idea.

It's up to THEM, depending on what their spiritual relationship is
and how they are meant to act on it. Does that answer your question?

Again Emily, extenuating circumstances ASIDE. The bold part does answer the question. So I can assume that you don't have a problem with homosexuals having a sexual relationship. Thanks. Now was that so hard?

 

[ChrisL]

Homosexuality is caused by:

1. Watching Teletubbies when you are little
2. Listening to show tunes
3. Having too many sister who like to play dress up
4. Too many Judy Garland, Marylyn Monroe, Cher and Madonna posters
5. Not playing manly sports like Football and Hockey

Could be!

 

[Boss]

What? you can be a non practicing homosexual, for lack of a better term.

No... I think you have to have homosexual relations at least once to be a homosexual, practicing or non-practicing. Otherwise, you could say we're ALL non practicing homosexuals.

Homosexuality is a behavioral act.