Debate Now Prove your case! Is Homosexuality genetic or a choice?

[emilynghiem]

Homosexuals don't breed, hence genetic homosexuality is impossible.

Sterile people don't breed either, but certainly sterility can be genetic.

agreed. If ppl don't follow your logic, the studies on identical twins also show over and over there is no genetic determination, because otherwise the orientation of the twins would correspond 100% and it's not even close.

But the fact is, homosexuality is not a choice. NO ONE chooses to have a mental disorder.

nope not a fact in all cases Fair&Balanced in fact there are cases where it was a choice to change for some ppl. So it is even more open and subjective given that some ppl can change, and some can't. To some it was a choice and others it wasn't . Some have always identified that way, and some weren't naturally that way but their situation was caused or influenced externally by abuse. With most ppl that is not a choice, but if adults chose to abuse themselves and others then such cases have been able to change with spiritual healing therapy, while others are not. It depends, so how can public policy be made or enforced under threat of penalty when this remains a private faith based matter.

Shouldn't all beliefs about this be treated equally and let ppl form decisions on their own. How can govt possibly be expected to mediate a consensual policy on faith based beliefs, any more than the failure to come to a consensus on marriage policies when ppl continue to believe differently. How should govt be involved at all in spiritual faith based issues like these?

 

[Syriusly]

Has everything to do with your point. What a person dwells on and thinks about is what they are.

Not really. Since I was a young boy, I have had this deep dark secret desire to know what it's like to rob a bank and get away with it. In my head, I have fantasized about how I would do it.... worked out my plans... the getaway, the whole bit. I'm never going to ACT on it. That doesn't make me a bank robber, does it?

Now when it comes to sexuality... I personally know a guy who has struggled his whole life with his sexual identity. He isn't a homosexual but he could be. He has all the tendencies... but he is devoutly religious and believes it's a sin to act out on his sexual desires. He is in his 60s and single... never been married, never has had a girlfriend as far as I know. Is he "gay"? ...I don't know, I guess it depends on how one would define "gay" ...he isn't engaging in homosexual relations.

By your 'standards' a virgin is neither heterosexual or homosexual.

A devout observant Catholic couple might 'court' for 5 years before they marry and have sex- during that time apparently they still aren't heterosexuals......

 

[Syriusly]

Homosexuals don't breed, hence genetic homosexuality is impossible.

Sterile people don't breed either, but certainly sterility can be genetic.

agreed. If ppl don't follow your logic, the studies on identical twins also show over and over there is no genetic determination, because otherwise the orientation of the twins would correspond 100% and it's not even close..

Actually the studies show the same for heterosexuality too. See if Twin studies don't show a genetic component to homosexuality- they also show no genetic component for heterosexuality.

Which would seem to indicate that there is more at work. But those studies presume that a genetic twin is indeed exactly identical- and that is not actually quite true.

Mirror image twins are an example of that- they are genetically identical- but mirror image. 1 will be left handed and the other right handed- and their hair will curl the opposite directions.

Mirror Twins - Interesting Facts on Mirror Image Twins

This thread wants to believe that sexuality is either genetic- or choice- and the answer is probably far, far more complex than that.

 

[emilynghiem]

For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he.

A great parameter for evaluation of sin in a religious belief. Has zero to do with my point.

Has everything to do with your point. What a person dwells on and thinks about is what they are.

Dear Lilah in some cases yes, I have met ppl who could choose whether to express themselves as male or female, gay or straight or bi.

In other cases, no, the person was how they are, and their process involved coming to peace and acceptance with this. Other cases my also involve therapy to come to peace with how others see them and not let this affect them.

In all cases, this still involves a spiritual process of coming to terms with identity and relations with others. If we can all agree this is spiritual, then these policies and beliefs can neither be endorsed nor excluded by govt, but like other beliefs or creeds remain the free choice of ppl to decide without govt interference.

 

[Boss]

Unless people of diverse beliefs agree on policy, any law or ruling biased one way or another technically violates the First or Fourteenth Amendments on equal protection of ppls free exercise...

I totally disagree and would submit that you don't understand what the First and Fourteenth are about. Equal protection does not mean everyone gets to do what they believe in doing, else they aren't being treated equally. The right to petition for redress doesn't mean the right to do whatever you please. We establish all kinds of boundaries and limitations to our freedoms. I have freedom of religious expression but I can't sacrifice virgins to the volcano.

 

[Manonthestreet]

LGBTRS themselves are now admitting the obvious,.....its a choice

 

[emilynghiem]

Homosexuals don't breed, hence genetic homosexuality is impossible.

Sterile people don't breed either, but certainly sterility can be genetic.

agreed. If ppl don't follow your logic, the studies on identical twins also show over and over there is no genetic determination, because otherwise the orientation of the twins would correspond 100% and it's not even close..

Actually the studies show the same for heterosexuality too. See if Twin studies don't show a genetic component to homosexuality- they also show no genetic component for heterosexuality.

Which would seem to indicate that there is more at work. But those studies presume that a genetic twin is indeed exactly identical- and that is not actually quite true.

Mirror image twins are an example of that- they are genetically identical- but mirror image. 1 will be left handed and the other right handed- and their hair will curl the opposite directions.

Mirror Twins - Interesting Facts on Mirror Image Twins

This thread wants to believe that sexuality is either genetic- or choice- and the answer is probably far, far more complex than that.

Yes Syriusly
And neither are the BELIEFS people have "genetically determined"
And yet these are equally protected as a CHOICE of faith.

Again so the BELIEFS about LGBT or about Christianity etc. don't need justification by proving any genetic source, and these BELIEFS are still protected equally yet cannot be endorsed by govt over other BELIEFS equally protected while none are genetically determined. Precisely.

 

[emilynghiem]

Unless people of diverse beliefs agree on policy, any law or ruling biased one way or another technically violates the First or Fourteenth Amendments on equal protection of ppls free exercise...

I totally disagree and would submit that you don't understand what the First and Fourteenth are about. Equal protection does not mean everyone gets to do what they believe in doing, else they aren't being treated equally. The right to petition for redress doesn't mean the right to do whatever you please. We establish all kinds of boundaries and limitations to our freedoms. I have freedom of religious expression but I can't sacrifice virgins to the volcano.

RIGHT Boss
I'm including that WITH First and Fourteenth Amendment rights that, of course, cannot be taken out of context and exploited to violate equal rights of others under the same Constitutional standards that also include right to due process, right to assemble peaceably and securely, right not to lose liberties unless convicted by law etc.

What I'm saying Boss is that these same laws on not discriminating by creed apply to LGBT beliefs that cannot be imposed on ppl through govt. The law goes both ways. And the same with religious freedom where you can't impose your Christian or Muslim practices on others and penalize them if they reject and don't comply, the same limits apply to LGBT beliefs.

By treating views on all sides as BELIEFS everyone wins. We all get the same rights to our beliefs WITHIN the same laws, where we agree nobody can abuse beliefs to violate rights of others. We all respect equal protection from each other's beliefs where we disagree. And we aren't required to defend our beliefs to claim them, just not impose on each other or it's breaking the same laws we're seeking to enforce. Win win!

 

[Fair&Balanced]

Homosexuals don't breed, hence genetic homosexuality is impossible.

Sterile people don't breed either, but certainly sterility can be genetic.

agreed. If ppl don't follow your logic, the studies on identical twins also show over and over there is no genetic determination, because otherwise the orientation of the twins would correspond 100% and it's not even close.

But the fact is, homosexuality is not a choice. NO ONE chooses to have a mental disorder.

nope not a fact in all cases Fair&Balanced in fact there are cases where it was a choice to change for some ppl. So it is even more open and subjective given that some ppl can change, and some can't. To some it was a choice and others it wasn't . Some have always identified that way, and some weren't naturally that way but their situation was caused or influenced externally by abuse. With most ppl that is not a choice, but if adults chose to abuse themselves and others then such cases have been able to change with spiritual healing therapy, while others are not. It depends, so how can public policy be made or enforced under threat of penalty when this remains a private faith based matter.

Shouldn't all beliefs about this be treated equally and let ppl form decisions on their own. How can govt possibly be expected to mediate a consensual policy on faith based beliefs, any more than the failure to come to a consensus on marriage policies when ppl continue to believe differently. How should govt be involved at all in spiritual faith based issues like these?

Well, first we must distinguish between the two.

First, there are homosexuals. Those who have a mental disorder and are compulsed to homosexuality. Then there are those who have for whatever reason chosen to have gay sex or even to be in a homosexual relationship, but could at any given time choose to enter into a heterosexual relationship. Those people are neither heterosexual nor homosexual, they just have sex with whomever they feel like having sex with at the time.

But the true homosexuals, who are compulsed to homosexuality? Yes, that is a mental disorder , whether genetic or not is up to debate.

 

[emilynghiem]

A perfectly "straight" person can THINK about having sex with same gender or dressing in drag all day long... it doesn't make them anything... even if such thoughts stimulate them sexually.

Well, in my mind, that would make such a "perfectly straight" person "gay curious." That's something, even if the something it is isn't gay.

Again... the point being... one can be "gay curious" or "have gay tendencies" ... be "in the closet" or whatever... We generally don't consider someone to be "homosexual" until they engage in an action by choice. A pedophile isn't really a pedophile as long as the thought remains in his head. It is the action versus the thought of action.

Yikes 320 Years of History
Schizophrenia and other mental or criminal illnesses do not have to wait until they manifest to be proven as existing conditions. In fact, the earlier they are diagnosed and treated the best chances of treatment and cure similar to diabetes and cancer.

Some cancer cannot be detected in advance or cured, but that doesn't mean to ignore the cases that can be. Same with either pedophilia or sexual addictions or disorders caused by abuse.

Why can't we focus on approaches that treat pedophilia as other dangerous diseases to diagnose and distinguish so ppl get help instead of running and hiding ?

 

[emilynghiem]

Homosexuals don't breed, hence genetic homosexuality is impossible.

Sterile people don't breed either, but certainly sterility can be genetic.

agreed. If ppl don't follow your logic, the studies on identical twins also show over and over there is no genetic determination, because otherwise the orientation of the twins would correspond 100% and it's not even close.

But the fact is, homosexuality is not a choice. NO ONE chooses to have a mental disorder.

nope not a fact in all cases Fair&Balanced in fact there are cases where it was a choice to change for some ppl. So it is even more open and subjective given that some ppl can change, and some can't. To some it was a choice and others it wasn't . Some have always identified that way, and some weren't naturally that way but their situation was caused or influenced externally by abuse. With most ppl that is not a choice, but if adults chose to abuse themselves and others then such cases have been able to change with spiritual healing therapy, while others are not. It depends, so how can public policy be made or enforced under threat of penalty when this remains a private faith based matter.

Shouldn't all beliefs about this be treated equally and let ppl form decisions on their own. How can govt possibly be expected to mediate a consensual policy on faith based beliefs, any more than the failure to come to a consensus on marriage policies when ppl continue to believe differently. How should govt be involved at all in spiritual faith based issues like these?

Well, first we must distinguish between the two.

First, there are homosexuals. Those who have a mental disorder and are compulsed to homosexuality. Then there are those who have for whatever reason chosen to have gay sex or even to be in a homosexual relationship, but could at any given time choose to enter into a heterosexual relationship. Those people are neither heterosexual nor homosexual, they just have sex with whomever they feel like having sex with at the time.

But the true homosexuals, who are compulsed to homosexuality? Yes, that is a mental disorder , whether genetic or not is up to debate.

Dear Fair&Balanced there are more cases and variations than that. Since this remains faith based conjecture, and it remains ppl personal choice, similar to ppl with cancer or manic depression chosing whether to seek treatment to change their situation or just live with it, then no amount of imposing categories justifies forcing them on ppl.

We can agree there are people who
* can change or want to change
* can't change or don't want to

If we can even agree these two groups BOTH exist and don't threaten the fact the other group exists, that's enough. We don't have to explain why or how these people are that way, and we don't all agree on the why's and how's anyway.

So if we agree not to fight about that, why not just acknowledge that yes some people can change and others either can't or don't have a need or desire to. Isn't that enough to stop imposing, and leave room for the rest to be decided personally in private by free choice instead of imposing publicly through laws and govt?

 

[emilynghiem]

LGBTRS themselves are now admitting the obvious,.....its a choice

To some yes, to others no
Manonthestreet


Like Christians will say their beliefs are not something they can chose. They can't magically turn off their identity and beliefs they have about God and Christ or even their belief in right to life or against same sex marriage.

So either way, if LGBT is seen as not a choice then treat other ppl with the same respect and protections where their beliefs are not a choice. If you are saying Christian beliefs and practices should stay out of govt then treat LGBT beliefs and practices the same. We all agree not to abuse govt to discriminate exclude or penalize one sides beliefs or another, and we can work out the rest by respecting each other as equals under law.

 

[Manonthestreet]

LGBTRS themselves are now admitting the obvious,.....its a choice

To some yes, to others no
Manonthestreet


Like Christians will say their beliefs are not something they can chose. They can't magically turn off their identity and beliefs they have about God and Christ or even their belief in right to life or against same sex marriage.

So either way, if LGBT is seen as not a choice then treat other ppl with the same respect and protections where their beliefs are not a choice. If you are saying Christian beliefs and practices should stay out of govt then treat LGBT beliefs and practices the same. We all agree not to abuse govt to discriminate exclude or penalize one sides beliefs or another, and we can work out the rest by respecting each other as equals under law.

Choice to be a Christian or not just like its a choice to be gay or not..They are admitting it now because they are in the drivers seat and dont have to lie to gain sympathy support

 

[Lilah]

Has everything to do with your point. What a person dwells on and thinks about is what they are.

Not really. Since I was a young boy, I have had this deep dark secret desire to know what it's like to rob a bank and get away with it. In my head, I have fantasized about how I would do it.... worked out my plans... the getaway, the whole bit. I'm never going to ACT on it. That doesn't make me a bank robber, does it?

Now when it comes to sexuality... I personally know a guy who has struggled his whole life with his sexual identity. He isn't a homosexual but he could be. He has all the tendencies... but he is devoutly religious and believes it's a sin to act out on his sexual desires. He is in his 60s and single... never been married, never has had a girlfriend as far as I know. Is he "gay"? ...I don't know, I guess it depends on how one would define "gay" ...he isn't engaging in homosexual relations.

Did you ever stop to consider that maybe you're a writer, or maybe you really want to rob a bank, but your common sense tells you, 'not a good idea.'
Your friend's predicament sounds heartbreaking. He's gay, but because of the ideas instilled in him, he's afraid to live. But then again, you don't really know, do you?

 

[Lilah]

For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he.

A great parameter for evaluation of sin in a religious belief. Has zero to do with my point.

Has everything to do with your point. What a person dwells on and thinks about is what they are.

Dear Lilah in some cases yes, I have met ppl who could choose whether to express themselves as male or female, gay or straight or bi.

In other cases, no, the person was how they are, and their process involved coming to peace and acceptance with this. Other cases my also involve therapy to come to peace with how others see them and not let this affect them.

In all cases, this still involves a spiritual process of coming to terms with identity and relations with others. If we can all agree this is spiritual, then these policies and beliefs can neither be endorsed nor excluded by govt, but like other beliefs or creeds remain the free choice of ppl to decide without govt interference.

It's heartbreaking that people must obtain counseling to find inward peace about what others think of them. That's so sad.

People should, of course, follow their hearts and be the best at what they choose for themselves. But, for most it is a choice. I'm not sure about homosexuality. I think maybe they were born that way, and I, for one, hope they find peace and happiness.

 

[emilynghiem]

For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he.

A great parameter for evaluation of sin in a religious belief. Has zero to do with my point.

Has everything to do with your point. What a person dwells on and thinks about is what they are.

Dear Lilah in some cases yes, I have met ppl who could choose whether to express themselves as male or female, gay or straight or bi.

In other cases, no, the person was how they are, and their process involved coming to peace and acceptance with this. Other cases my also involve therapy to come to peace with how others see them and not let this affect them.

In all cases, this still involves a spiritual process of coming to terms with identity and relations with others. If we can all agree this is spiritual, then these policies and beliefs can neither be endorsed nor excluded by govt, but like other beliefs or creeds remain the free choice of ppl to decide without govt interference.

It's heartbreaking that people must obtain counseling to find inward peace about what others think of them. That's so sad.

People should, of course, follow their hearts and be the best at what they choose for themselves. But, for most it is a choice. I'm not sure about homosexuality. I think maybe they were born that way, and I, for one, hope they find peace and happiness.

Dear Lilah lots of ppl I know have issues with self esteem and perception in relation to others. It's not just ppl with orientation or gender identity issues, but anyone facing social struggles with religious, political, racial or other cultural identity issues that can benefit from deep inner searching and healing. Some overcompensate for inner struggle by bullying and projecting control issues externally onto others. Some absorb the stress internally and take it on themselves. Either way, and for whatever reason people are experiencing this, I'd much prefer ppl receive support to work through it, because it makes us stronger better ppl. Some of the most influential admirable ppl I respect the highest got there from overcoming serious struggles and setbacks, and came out ahead for it. It doesn't have to be tragic, when there are ways to turn it around to be triumphant. Just takes longterm support, and it's amazing what the human spirit is capable of doing and transforming adversity into advantages, and hardship into heroism.

 

[Lilah]

For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he.

A great parameter for evaluation of sin in a religious belief. Has zero to do with my point.

Has everything to do with your point. What a person dwells on and thinks about is what they are.

Dear Lilah in some cases yes, I have met ppl who could choose whether to express themselves as male or female, gay or straight or bi.

In other cases, no, the person was how they are, and their process involved coming to peace and acceptance with this. Other cases my also involve therapy to come to peace with how others see them and not let this affect them.

In all cases, this still involves a spiritual process of coming to terms with identity and relations with others. If we can all agree this is spiritual, then these policies and beliefs can neither be endorsed nor excluded by govt, but like other beliefs or creeds remain the free choice of ppl to decide without govt interference.

It's heartbreaking that people must obtain counseling to find inward peace about what others think of them. That's so sad.

People should, of course, follow their hearts and be the best at what they choose for themselves. But, for most it is a choice. I'm not sure about homosexuality. I think maybe they were born that way, and I, for one, hope they find peace and happiness.

Dear Lilah lots of ppl I know have issues with self esteem and perception in relation to others. It's not just ppl with orientation or identity issues that benefit for deep inner searching amd healing. Some overcompensate for inner struggle by bullying and projecting control issues externally onto others. Some absorb the stress internally and take it on themselves. Either way, and for whatever reason people are experiencing this, I'd much prefer ppl receive support to work through it, because it makes us stronger better ppl. Some of the most influential admirable ppl I respect the highest got there from overcoming serious struggles and setbacks, and came out ahead for it. It doesn't have to be tragic, when there are ways to turn it around to be triumphant. Just takes longterm support, and it's amazing what the human spirit is capable of doing and transforming adversity into advantages, and hardship into heroism.

I still find it to be sad when people worry and fret over what others think of them.
We're a nation of over 318 million people; therefore, differences are inevitable. Choices and decisions make us who we are.

 

[Boss]

Did you ever stop to consider that maybe you're a writer, or maybe you really want to rob a bank, but your common sense tells you, 'not a good idea.'
Your friend's predicament sounds heartbreaking. He's gay, but because of the ideas instilled in him, he's afraid to live. But then again, you don't really know, do you?

Well of course I am a writer... what difference does that make? And of course my common sense tells me it would be a bad idea to rob a bank... again, what difference does that make? YOU said; What a person dwells on and thinks about is what they are. Now you are backtracking.

My friend doesn't have any predicament. He is devoutly religious and believes homosexuality is a sin. That's his religious viewpoint... not an idea instilled in him. And he lives a full and interesting life... he just doesn't practice homosexual behavior. You know, it IS possible for people to overcome sexual urges and desires. And you're right, I don't really know what he desires or is attracted to sexually... Like I said, he has a lot of homosexual tendencies and he has never been in a relationship with a woman. Is he "gay"??? I don't know... what defines gay? His sexual urges or his actions?

 

[Boss]

Choices and decisions make us who we are.

This is totally contradictory to your previous assertion: What a person dwells on and thinks about is what they are.

 

[320 Years of History]

Yikes 320 Years of History

I'm sorry. I don't understand the "yikes" aspect of your comment. I get the rest of it, but I don't see how that merits a "yikes" with regard to my remark that you quoted. What do you find shocking about my remark?