Question for proponents of the Public Option Plan/Single Payer Plan.

[Ravi]

Tell that to Bfgrn. He thinks that COBRA helps the unemployed and that a single payer system will solve everyone's problems.

Immie

You're the one that is wrong. COBRA does help the unemployed...they can choose to continue their health care insurance if they can afford it until they are employed once again. No one forces anyone to take COBRA. And yes, it is expensive since the employee must pay the employer's previous share of insurance as well as their own.

COBRA wouldn't be needed if we had a single payer system that was paid for by tax dollars.

Your arguments get weaker, and weaker, and weaker.

You never even responded to the fact that we as taxpayers are already paying for 46% of all American's medical coverage...and the most expensive groups to boot.

If it was paid for by private dollars the incentive would be more towards what is affordable, rather than blank check spending. We want expenses to be transparent and accountable, not a black hole.

If what was paid for by private dollars? Health care? You must be joking if you are going to claim that the free market keeps health insurance costs down. If that were true, we'd not be having this discussion.

Expenses under Medicare are way more transparent and accountable than they are under private health care providers.

 

[Ravi]

Tell that to Bfgrn. He thinks that COBRA helps the unemployed and that a single payer system will solve everyone's problems.

Immie

You're the one that is wrong. COBRA does help the unemployed...they can choose to continue their health care insurance if they can afford it until they are employed once again. No one forces anyone to take COBRA. And yes, it is expensive since the employee must pay the employer's previous share of insurance as well as their own.

COBRA wouldn't be needed if we had a single payer system that was paid for by tax dollars.

Your arguments get weaker, and weaker, and weaker.

You never even responded to the fact that we as taxpayers are already paying for 46% of all American's medical coverage...and the most expensive groups to boot.

Where you are wrong, RAVI, is that the people who really need COBRA are not the ones who leave one employer and move to another right away, it is the people who are laid off and do not have a job and no prospects on the horizon. Those are the ones that COBRA was designed to protect. Even people who leave their jobs for another job and have to wait for 90 days before they are covered on their new employer's plan cannot usually afford the additional premiums.

I thought you liberals cared about the needy... am I wrong?

Immie

I don't know where you aren't understanding that before COBRA there was no option but trying to qualify for Medicaid. So if you were layed off and got into an accident or diagnosed with cancer you were pretty well screwed.

If this is your objection to a public option I don't understand where you are coming from. A public option or a single payer system would affordably cover these people you are worrying about.

 

[Intense]

You're the one that is wrong. COBRA does help the unemployed...they can choose to continue their health care insurance if they can afford it until they are employed once again. No one forces anyone to take COBRA. And yes, it is expensive since the employee must pay the employer's previous share of insurance as well as their own.

COBRA wouldn't be needed if we had a single payer system that was paid for by tax dollars.

Your arguments get weaker, and weaker, and weaker.

You never even responded to the fact that we as taxpayers are already paying for 46% of all American's medical coverage...and the most expensive groups to boot.

If it was paid for by private dollars the incentive would be more towards what is affordable, rather than blank check spending. We want expenses to be transparent and accountable, not a black hole.

If what was paid for by private dollars? Health care? You must be joking if you are going to claim that the free market keeps health insurance costs down. If that were true, we'd not be having this discussion.

Expenses under Medicare are way more transparent and accountable than they are under private health care providers.

The Free Market could keep Health Care down Ravi. Tort Reform, Liability coverage Reform, Cost of Schooling and loan repayment Reform, anything legitimate to bring cost of services down. Unjustified mandates multiply cost. Unnecessary testing increases cost. Clarify, simplify. We need less chaos, not more. What you advocate will overwhelm and multiply cost. It will bankrupt us.

 

[Bfgrn]

i don't want free health care. Although, i would be more than happy to be taxed to help those who need it.

Taxes... Are collected by whom????????? (hint: Starts with a G)

cobra does not do the job for those in need, nor does arra solve the problem. Both are government failures... And idiots like you want to add another failure to the package. I am not opposed to helping the poor. I never have been.

I am, however, concerned about adding another program doomed to failure that won't solve the problem.

SO, the entity (hint: Starts with a G) our founding fathers created to address citizen grievances and to protect the public good is a failure...well maybe your fairy godmother will pay for your health insurance?

immie - dolt certified

lol

Obviously, you have no argument.

It has been proven to you over and over that COBRA is a failure. The citizens who are to be assisted by both COBRA and ARRA are not helped by it, yet you continue to claim it is a great program.

You are the dolt, Bfgrn, yes you. You said that the program did not suck because it continued health care for those who are unemployed. Yet, when it is proven that it does not provide health insurance for the poor you fall back on mularky and claim, I want free health insurance without even a basis for such a lie.

Yeah, your are an idiot of the third class. Come up with a real argument as to why you think COBRA is a worthwhile program, if you can.

Immie

COBRA is NOT assistance... it is a law that was passed to prevent insurance cartels from canceling people's health insurance when they lose their jobs by allowing them to PAY for their coverage under group rates...WITHOUT Cobra, the premium would be at an individual rate that would make COBRA look like every day is Christmas...

 

[Ravi]

If it was paid for by private dollars the incentive would be more towards what is affordable, rather than blank check spending. We want expenses to be transparent and accountable, not a black hole.

If what was paid for by private dollars? Health care? You must be joking if you are going to claim that the free market keeps health insurance costs down. If that were true, we'd not be having this discussion.

Expenses under Medicare are way more transparent and accountable than they are under private health care providers.

The Free Market could keep Health Care down Ravi. Tort Reform, Liability coverage Reform, Cost of Schooling and loan repayment Reform, anything legitimate to bring cost of services down. Unjustified mandates multiply cost. Unnecessary testing increases cost. Clarify, simplify. We need less chaos, not more. What you advocate will overwhelm and multiply cost. It will bankrupt us.

You aren't talking about the free market...you are talking about rewriting the rules so the insurance companies can do whatever they want without penalty. Which isn't really very far from what it is now. The free market has NOT kept health care costs down.

There are plenty of countries that have some form of public option or single payer health care and none of them are bankrupt or in danger of becoming so.

 

[Immanuel]

You're the one that is wrong. COBRA does help the unemployed...they can choose to continue their health care insurance if they can afford it until they are employed once again. No one forces anyone to take COBRA. And yes, it is expensive since the employee must pay the employer's previous share of insurance as well as their own.

COBRA wouldn't be needed if we had a single payer system that was paid for by tax dollars.

Your arguments get weaker, and weaker, and weaker.

You never even responded to the fact that we as taxpayers are already paying for 46% of all American's medical coverage...and the most expensive groups to boot.

Where you are wrong, RAVI, is that the people who really need COBRA are not the ones who leave one employer and move to another right away, it is the people who are laid off and do not have a job and no prospects on the horizon. Those are the ones that COBRA was designed to protect. Even people who leave their jobs for another job and have to wait for 90 days before they are covered on their new employer's plan cannot usually afford the additional premiums.

I thought you liberals cared about the needy... am I wrong?

Immie

I don't know where you aren't understanding that before COBRA there was no option but trying to qualify for Medicaid. So if you were layed off and got into an accident or diagnosed with cancer you were pretty well screwed.

If this is your objection to a public option I don't understand where you are coming from. A public option or a single payer system would affordably cover these people you are worrying about.

It has nothing to do with my objection to the Congressional plans.

If you go back and read the thread, you will see that Cold Fusion was complaining about COBRA and insinuating that it was private insurance's fault. COBRA has little to do with the current plans and would, in fact, be eliminated by the current plans.

My objection to the current plans come from the fact that we are exchanging private insurance which is in itself shitty for government moderated insurance and I believe that the government will fail as it has proven itself to do with everything it gets its hands on. Once it has its hands in health insurance, the entire idea of coverage for medical expenses is doomed to end up a failure and in the laps of taxpayers down the line ie our great grandchildren.

Why is it that Congress has no problem passing along massive deficits to our great grandchildren?

Immie

 

[Intense]

lol

Obviously, you have no argument.

It has been proven to you over and over that COBRA is a failure. The citizens who are to be assisted by both COBRA and ARRA are not helped by it, yet you continue to claim it is a great program.

You are the dolt, Bfgrn, yes you. You said that the program did not suck because it continued health care for those who are unemployed. Yet, when it is proven that it does not provide health insurance for the poor you fall back on mularky and claim, I want free health insurance without even a basis for such a lie.

Yeah, your are an idiot of the third class. Come up with a real argument as to why you think COBRA is a worthwhile program, if you can.

Immie

COBRA is NOT assistance... it is a law that was passed to prevent insurance cartels from canceling people's health insurance when they lose their jobs by allowing them to PAY for their coverage under group rates...WITHOUT Cobra, the premium would be at an individual rate that would make COBRA look like every day is Christmas...

I'm going to guess that it also takes care of the pre existing condition clause a bit too.

 

[Intense]

If what was paid for by private dollars? Health care? You must be joking if you are going to claim that the free market keeps health insurance costs down. If that were true, we'd not be having this discussion.

Expenses under Medicare are way more transparent and accountable than they are under private health care providers.

The Free Market could keep Health Care down Ravi. Tort Reform, Liability coverage Reform, Cost of Schooling and loan repayment Reform, anything legitimate to bring cost of services down. Unjustified mandates multiply cost. Unnecessary testing increases cost. Clarify, simplify. We need less chaos, not more. What you advocate will overwhelm and multiply cost. It will bankrupt us.

You aren't talking about the free market...you are talking about rewriting the rules so the insurance companies can do whatever they want without penalty. Which isn't really very far from what it is now. The free market has NOT kept health care costs down.

There are plenty of countries that have some form of public option or single payer health care and none of them are bankrupt or in danger of becoming so.

No I am not talking about rewriting the rules so the insurance companies can do whatever they want without penalty. I'm talking about making the laws understandable and functional.

 

[Immanuel]

lol

Obviously, you have no argument.

It has been proven to you over and over that COBRA is a failure. The citizens who are to be assisted by both COBRA and ARRA are not helped by it, yet you continue to claim it is a great program.

You are the dolt, Bfgrn, yes you. You said that the program did not suck because it continued health care for those who are unemployed. Yet, when it is proven that it does not provide health insurance for the poor you fall back on mularky and claim, I want free health insurance without even a basis for such a lie.

Yeah, your are an idiot of the third class. Come up with a real argument as to why you think COBRA is a worthwhile program, if you can.

Immie

COBRA is NOT assistance... it is a law that was passed to prevent insurance cartels from canceling people's health insurance when they lose their jobs by allowing them to PAY for their coverage under group rates...WITHOUT Cobra, the premium would be at an individual rate that would make COBRA look like every day is Christmas...

Yet, it fails! It fails because people who lose their jobs, cannot keep the coverage even though the cartel is prevented from cancelling their health insurance. That is why it fails. So, technically, they can lay the blame at the feet of those who lose their jobs.

The insurance cartel: "Don't blame us! You could have continued your coverage under the COBRA laws but you chose not to."

The unemployed worker: "But, I had to pay my mortgage and feed my children."

The cartel: "Tough F'ing shit. We need to pay our CEO."

That is why COBRA sucks.

Immie

 

[Bfgrn]

Obviously, you have no argument.

It has been proven to you over and over that COBRA is a failure. The citizens who are to be assisted by both COBRA and ARRA are not helped by it, yet you continue to claim it is a great program.

You are the dolt, Bfgrn, yes you. You said that the program did not suck because it continued health care for those who are unemployed. Yet, when it is proven that it does not provide health insurance for the poor you fall back on mularky and claim, I want free health insurance without even a basis for such a lie.

Yeah, your are an idiot of the third class. Come up with a real argument as to why you think COBRA is a worthwhile program, if you can.

Immie

COBRA is NOT assistance... it is a law that was passed to prevent insurance cartels from canceling people's health insurance when they lose their jobs by allowing them to PAY for their coverage under group rates...WITHOUT Cobra, the premium would be at an individual rate that would make COBRA look like every day is Christmas...

Yet, it fails! It fails because people who lose their jobs, cannot keep the coverage even though the cartel is prevented from cancelling their health insurance. That is why it fails. So, technically, they can lay the blame at the feet of those who lose their jobs.

The insurance cartel: "Don't blame us! You could have continued your coverage under the COBRA laws but you chose not to."

The unemployed worker: "But, I had to pay my mortgage and feed my children."

The cartel: "Tough F'ing shit. We need to pay our CEO."

That is why COBRA sucks.

Immie

COBRA sucks because of the cartels and the CEO's...NOT because it exists...it exists FOR THE SAME REASON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Immanuel]

COBRA is NOT assistance... it is a law that was passed to prevent insurance cartels from canceling people's health insurance when they lose their jobs by allowing them to PAY for their coverage under group rates...WITHOUT Cobra, the premium would be at an individual rate that would make COBRA look like every day is Christmas...

Yet, it fails! It fails because people who lose their jobs, cannot keep the coverage even though the cartel is prevented from cancelling their health insurance. That is why it fails. So, technically, they can lay the blame at the feet of those who lose their jobs.

The insurance cartel: "Don't blame us! You could have continued your coverage under the COBRA laws but you chose not to."

The unemployed worker: "But, I had to pay my mortgage and feed my children."

The cartel: "Tough F'ing shit. We need to pay our CEO."

That is why COBRA sucks.

Immie

COBRA sucks because of the cartels and the CEO's...NOT because it exists...it exists FOR THE SAME REASON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At least you finally admit that it sucks, which is what started this entire conversation.

It sucks only because it does not help those who need it the most. People who change jobs and have to wait 90 days before the new employer's plan kicks in can get away with not accepting it for 60 days. If before that point they find that they have unexpected medical expenses that will cost more than the premiums, they can elect to extend coverage, if not, they only need to sweat the next 30 days.

And for the record, I never said it sucks "because it exists", I have always stated that it sucks because it does not help those who need it the most.

Immie

 

[Ravi]

 

[Immanuel]

So what you are saying then is that liberals are nothing but liars. They tell the poor that they look out for them, in order to scare them into voting Democrat, but in reality they don't give a damned about the poor. Is that where you have a problem? Someone who really does care about those in need?

Immie

 

[Ravi]

So what you are saying then is that liberals are nothing but liars. They tell the poor that they look out for them, in order to scare them into voting Democrat, but in reality they don't give a damned about the poor. Is that where you have a problem? Someone who really does care about those in need?

Immie

No, what I'm saying is you don't really know what you're talking about. Especially when it comes to COBRA.

It also rather fascinates me that you seem to think a democratic republic is a bad thing.

 

[Bfgrn]

Yet, it fails! It fails because people who lose their jobs, cannot keep the coverage even though the cartel is prevented from cancelling their health insurance. That is why it fails. So, technically, they can lay the blame at the feet of those who lose their jobs.

The insurance cartel: "Don't blame us! You could have continued your coverage under the COBRA laws but you chose not to."

The unemployed worker: "But, I had to pay my mortgage and feed my children."

The cartel: "Tough F'ing shit. We need to pay our CEO."

That is why COBRA sucks.

Immie

COBRA sucks because of the cartels and the CEO's...NOT because it exists...it exists FOR THE SAME REASON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At least you finally admit that it sucks, which is what started this entire conversation.

It sucks only because it does not help those who need it the most. People who change jobs and have to wait 90 days before the new employer's plan kicks in can get away with not accepting it for 60 days. If before that point they find that they have unexpected medical expenses that will cost more than the premiums, they can elect to extend coverage, if not, they only need to sweat the next 30 days.

And for the record, I never said it sucks "because it exists", I have always stated that it sucks because it does not help those who need it the most.

Immie

COBRA is NOT designed to GIVE you free health coverage...IT DOES make PAYING FOR health insurance under a group rate POSSIBLE...

Maybe if we play a TV Game Show it will register...OK?


So Immie...You have a job that offers health insurance...your employer pays $600 and you pay $400 per month...Your wife has breast cancer and is going for chemotherapy...

BTW..........YOU"RE FIRED!!!

Let's play...

Choose door # 1, 2 or 3...

Door # 1- Your health insurance is canceled...tough shit...BTW, you now owe County Hospital $10,000 per month for Chemo...

Door # 2- Your health insurance is canceled...tough shit...BUT, you can go out and purchase health insurance on your own...$2500 per month... BTW, you STILL now owe County Hospital $10,000 per month for Chemo...because your wife's breast cancer is a preexisting condition...

Door # 3- COBRA...You can CONTINUE your health insurance at $1,000 per month and continue coverage for your wife's illness...

And because of President Obama, Democrats and the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, abbreviated ARRA... THE STIMULUS PACKAGE...your premium for the next 9 months is $350...

TAKE YOUR TIME...

 

[Immanuel]

So what you are saying then is that liberals are nothing but liars. They tell the poor that they look out for them, in order to scare them into voting Democrat, but in reality they don't give a damned about the poor. Is that where you have a problem? Someone who really does care about those in need?

Immie

No, what I'm saying is you don't really know what you're talking about. Especially when it comes to COBRA.

It also rather fascinates me that you seem to think a democratic republic is a bad thing.

I am sorry, but you don't know what the hell you are talking about. I deal with COBRA all the time and people who are faced with having to decide how they are going to make ends meet in between jobs. Most of them can't.

As for your false claims that I think a Democratic Republic is a bad thing, well, that is all it is... a false claim. I think our politicians in Washington are a bad thing. I do not believe that the ideas that founded our republic are a bad thing. However, if we could resurrect the founding fathers and show them what their ideas have turned into, I suspect everyone of them would croak of a massive coronary after they said, "I told you so." This is what they worried about 200+ years ago.

Unfortunately, I think that we, the citizens of this great country, have failed because we have allowed corruption to run amok in Washington.

As a matter of fact, we no longer live in a Democratic Republic. The political leaders in Washington now dictate to us how we will live. We are now their subjects. Take us back to a Democratic Republic and I will be right there with you, but don't you dare claim that we live in such a thing any longer.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

COBRA sucks because of the cartels and the CEO's...NOT because it exists...it exists FOR THE SAME REASON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At least you finally admit that it sucks, which is what started this entire conversation.

It sucks only because it does not help those who need it the most. People who change jobs and have to wait 90 days before the new employer's plan kicks in can get away with not accepting it for 60 days. If before that point they find that they have unexpected medical expenses that will cost more than the premiums, they can elect to extend coverage, if not, they only need to sweat the next 30 days.

And for the record, I never said it sucks "because it exists", I have always stated that it sucks because it does not help those who need it the most.

Immie

COBRA is NOT designed to GIVE you free health coverage...IT DOES make PAYING FOR health insurance under a group rate POSSIBLE...

One word: Bullshit!

Possible only if you are a rich son of a bitch. Other than that, it is of no use at all, that is all I have said throughout this discussion. It is impossible for most people to continue their coverage under COBRA and ARRA does not change that. ARRA attempts to address the problem, but it too falls short. I never asked for free insurance. I simply stated that COBRA does not make it possible for people who have lost their jobs to continue coverage.

Immie

 

[Bfgrn]

At least you finally admit that it sucks, which is what started this entire conversation.

It sucks only because it does not help those who need it the most. People who change jobs and have to wait 90 days before the new employer's plan kicks in can get away with not accepting it for 60 days. If before that point they find that they have unexpected medical expenses that will cost more than the premiums, they can elect to extend coverage, if not, they only need to sweat the next 30 days.

And for the record, I never said it sucks "because it exists", I have always stated that it sucks because it does not help those who need it the most.

Immie

COBRA is NOT designed to GIVE you free health coverage...IT DOES make PAYING FOR health insurance under a group rate POSSIBLE...

One word: Bullshit!

Possible only if you are a rich son of a bitch. Other than that, it is of no use at all, that is all I have said throughout this discussion. It is impossible for most people to continue their coverage under COBRA and ARRA does not change that. ARRA attempts to address the problem, but it too falls short. I never asked for free insurance. I simply stated that COBRA does not make it possible for people who have lost their jobs to continue coverage.

Immie

Well, then maybe FREE would be low enough for you...

Immie, based on your "entitlement" mentality, I will choose Door # 1 FOR you...So you better start packing...BTW, it's cold in Canada, but they have great beer...

 

[Care4all]

when matt was unemployed a few years back, we paid our cobra bill for 10 months, $650 a month (plus food, mortgage, utilities...it was scary)....we ate in to our savings, until matt found another job with insurance coverage...nothing happened to us, we did not get sick, we could have taken our chances to go without it I suppose, but we didn't think it was worth the risk...

yes, if we had not had savings and emergency fund, we could have not managed...and it'll take several more years to build the emergency fund up again....the State of massachusetts will help with your COBRA or allow you to go on a blue cross blue shield of massachusetts coverage where they pay 80%, you pay 20% of your COBRA bill...that is means and monthly bills, tested, so if you did have a hardship, they would come in to pay 80%...

You should check to see if Florida has a program for those collecting unemployment Immie.

THIS is a State issue, not federal....federal provided the rule that allowed you to keep your group coverage at the group coverage price.... it is up to each state, to decide if they are willing to subsidize such, for those who can't afford even that, while unemployed.

 

[Immanuel]

COBRA is NOT designed to GIVE you free health coverage...IT DOES make PAYING FOR health insurance under a group rate POSSIBLE...

One word: Bullshit!

Possible only if you are a rich son of a bitch. Other than that, it is of no use at all, that is all I have said throughout this discussion. It is impossible for most people to continue their coverage under COBRA and ARRA does not change that. ARRA attempts to address the problem, but it too falls short. I never asked for free insurance. I simply stated that COBRA does not make it possible for people who have lost their jobs to continue coverage.

Immie

Well, then maybe FREE would be low enough for you...

Immie, based on your "entitlement" mentality, I will choose Door # 1 FOR you...So you better start packing...BTW, it's cold in Canada, but they have great beer...

Maybe what you can't comprehend is the difference between possible and allowed by law? You see you seem to think that something that is allowed by law is possible where as I think that just because the government says you can do something does not mean that you can actually afford to do it. The government says that I have the legal right to buy an Alpha Romeo. The fact is that I cannot afford one.

Also, if you had ever used "Hooked on Phonics" and you were actually ability to read, you would see that I have never stated that the COBRA laws should be changed to make it possible for those who are needy to continue their insurance. I would like nothing more than to help the poor. However, I have only stated that COBRA laws do no such thing. I simply stated that under those laws, it is not possible for them to do so.

Immie