Question for those that support sanctuary cities/states.

[Coyote]

Poll: Most support path to legal status for illegal immigrants

Nearly two-thirds of Americans say there should be a path to legal status for undocumented immigrants, according to a new poll, and only 26 percent think stopping border crossings should be the top immigration priority.

Sixty percent say a pathway for legal residency should be the government’s immigration priority in the CNN/ORC survey released Friday.

Thirteen percent said deporting illegal immigrants should instead be immigration priority No. 1. One percent had no opinion.

Pollsters report 58 percent worry deportation efforts will go too far by deporting people who have not committed serious crimes, compared to 40 percent who fear deportation efforts would be too lenient, letting dangerous criminals remain in the U.S. untouched. Two percent had no response.

Twenty-seven percent said the government should deport all illegal immigrants, while by 71 percent disagree.​

Fox News Poll: 83 percent support pathway to citizenship for illegal immigrants

The poll finds a record-high 83 percent of voters support setting up a system for all illegal immigrants who are currently working in the country to become legal residents, up nine points since last year. Just 14 percent say “deport as many as possible,” down from a high of 30 percent in July 2015.

There is rare partisan agreement on all fronts.

Democrats (66 percent), Republicans (60 percent) and independents (59 percent) all agree it is important Congress work on Dreamer legislation. Partisans are also in sync on granting work permits and U.S. citizenship to these individuals, as majorities of Democrats, Republicans, and independents favor both actions.

Moreover, 63 percent of Trump voters favor granting Dreamers citizenship.

Setting up a system to legalize undocumented immigrants working in the U.S. also receives bipartisan support: most Democrats (95 percent legalize vs. 4 percent deport), Republicans (69-28 percent) and independents (82-13 percent) want legalization to happen.

http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...y-statistic-do-80-percent-americans-oppose-s/

A survey from Harvard–Harris Poll provided exclusively to The Hill found that 80 percent of voters say local authorities should have to comply with the law by reporting to federal agents the illegal immigrants they come into contact with.

The Harvard–Harris Poll survey found strong support for an overhaul of the nation's immigration laws, with 77 percent saying they support comprehensive immigration reform against only 23 percent who oppose.

“While there is broad support for comprehensive immigration reform, there is overwhelming opposition to sanctuary cities,” said Harvard–Harris co-director Mark Penn. “The public wants honest immigrants treated fairly and those who commit crimes deported and that's very clear from the data.”​

And...an interesting analysis in reference to the above poll specifically but can be applied to all polls: Do 80 percent of Americans oppose sanctuary cities?

One of our readers asked us to investigate. We decided not to put the 80 percent finding to the Truth-O-Meter, because we don’t doubt the reliability of the poll itself. But questions phrased differently can show dramatically different results.

All told, the finding is a case study in how poll results can be seized by advocates for one side of an issue -- and how some of the nuances in the questions and the answers can be lost in the hubbub.

A closer look at the questions
The question in the poll that attracted the most attention -- certainly from the political right -- was this one: "Should cities that arrest illegal immigrants for crimes be required to turn them over to immigration authorities?" On this question, 80 percent of respondents said yes.

But as we looked into the question, we noticed a couple things.

One was that, despite the blaring headlines about sanctuary cities, the question being asked didn’t actually use the words "sanctuary cities." The other concerned words that the question did use -- "arrest" and "crimes."

To understand why such wording choices matter -- and why they could potentially change the results of the poll -- we first need to review what the term "sanctuary city" actually means.

The question wording
The specific wording used to ask any poll question is always important. It’s not even necessarily a comparison of "good wording" vs."bad wording" -- if a question is asked a certain way, it could nudge respondents to answer in one direction.


In this case, respondents were asked about "crimes." To many, that could bring to mind "violent crimes," especially when paired with the term "arrest."

But the experts we spoke to said the jurisdictions described as sanctuary cities don’t simply let murderers, rapists, armed robbers and other people they arrest for violent crimes go free. Not only would federal immigration officials be notified, but the violent crimes they were charged with would be prosecuted.

Instead, where the rubber hits the road with sanctuary cities is with lesser, non-violent offenses, even down to a broken tail light -- or simply any interaction with police, such as an undocumented immigrant becoming a happenstance witness to a crime. These are the cases in which police in sanctuary cities would typically be trained to refrain from asking for immigration status or informing federal immigration officials.

And this nuance is not captured by the question that garnered 80 percent support in the Harvard-Harris poll -- as well as the lion’s share of headlines.

"Question wording always affects responses," said Steven S. Smith, a political scientist and pollster at Washington University in St. Louis. "‘Arrest … for crimes’ certainly primes the respondent to think that the person is dangerous and therefore should be a high priority in immigration law enforcement."

Karlyn Bowman, a polling analyst at the American Enterprise Institute, noted that there is little history of past polling on the issue of sanctuary cities. But she did uncover one poll released a few days after the Harvard-Harris poll that seems to back up the idea that different wording can substantially change the result.

The poll, conducted by Quinnipiac University and released on Feb. 23, asked, "Thinking about people who have immigrated to the U.S. illegally, who do you think should be deported: Should no illegal immigrants be deported, only illegal immigrants that have committed serious crimes, only illegal immigrants that have committed any crime, or should all illegal immigrants be deported?"

The results: Only 3 percent said no illegal immigrants should be deported, and 19 percent said all illegal immigrants should be deported. But 53 percent of respondents said deportations should only be done for "serious crimes," compared to 22 percent for "any crime."

That’s not just a plurality -- it’s a majority. And that tells a different story than the Internet headlines.​

 

[Humorme]

danielpalos and I have exchanged this disagreement for thousands of posts. Filibustering and trying to win on the basis of a popularity contest is immoral and dishonest. Of course she knows it.

What I'm for is Liberty and Freedom. Your view has NO basis in fact. What you and I are getting ready to engage in is way the Hell off topic.

Bottom line: We've had this immigration situation since the first colonists set foot on this soil. It did not prevent us from becoming the greatest nation on the face of this earth and if you read this thread, you will see that the situation is a self regulating one. When the American people are doing good, they hire the undocumented foreigner; when times are bad or we're feeling good toward a fellow American, we help them instead.

As for your LIE about immigration, I have said it how many times... YOU CANNOT DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN THE UNALIENABLE RIGHTS OF ALL MEN VERSUS THE PRIVILEGES / BENEFITS / IMMUNITIES OF CITIZENSHIP???

If you want a private discussion....exchange phone numbers. Otherwise deal with it.

You are only partially correct.

The 14th says if a person is born in the US, they are a US citizen.
200 or more years ago that had an entirely different set of circumstances than it does today.

So in one respect you're correct. Unfortunately. But you ignore the INTENT. In legal terms, intent is as much a part of the law as the written word. ANY good defense or prosecuting attorney knows that. Its what most cases are won or lost over.

However, clearly, it was not the INTENT of the 14th to have open borders or for that to be abused as it is today.
Our sovereignty as a nation is now threatened. What's more important....allowing as many immigrants as as possible....or surviving as a nation?

Is that a difficult question to answer? Shouldn't be at all....yet some here are stymied.

As per your post:

The United States Constitution is ultimately interpreted by the United States Supreme Court. Unless you see the return of Jesus Christ, their decisions may as well be etched in stone.

Your ONLY recourse if you don't like the 14th is to admit it is fraudulent OR work to repeal it.

How many immigrants come and go should be a decision we make as a nation and NOT left to the politicians. If you don't like them being here, don't hire them. Don't do business with people that do hire them. Don't sell to them; don't buy from them. Be responsible for what YOU believe in.

What some of you do not understand is that the ultimate POLICE STATE you're building is far more dangerous to the sovereignty of this country. It is dangerous to our Liberties and Freedoms.

 

[Slyhunter]

How should illegal immigration be controlled? It seems that the mindset of the sanctuary city/state crowd is that once a person arrives illegally (or over stays a visa), that person should be welcomed to stay, establish permanent residence, become legally employed, receive government services, acquire a driver’s license, enroll children into public schools, and eventually seek citizenship and have the right to vote. In other words, the illegal immigrant is to be granted all the rights, benefits and protections as legal immigrants. How can we control immigration if we don’t treat illegal immigration as a crime and allow illegal immigrants to simply blend into our society? Also, if you believe we should have open boarders making all immigrants legal, just say so!

In my personal opinion...it's complicated.

No, I don't believe in "open boarders" - we need a good immigration and border policy to protect our country.

I think it's important to have a good border security policy. I don't support a physical wall because of it's effect on the natural migrations of wildlife and on border communities. But there are many other good ways of improving security that don't involve a wall.

When it comes to those already here - I am not that concerned unless they commit a violent crime. Then, upon conviction (and jail time) - boot them out. Otherwise I see it as a lesser category of crime...like trespassing. I would rather spend law enforcement dollars on violent crimes - murder, rape, gang violence, drug violence.

I guess I don't understand why an illegal immigrant should be in the same category as a violent rapist.

So if Joe Illegal can sneak across the border tomorrow,then he becomes part of the already here category and gets de facto legal status? I think it sends a mixed message to to have “border security” at the border but no means of enforcement within the borders once someone manages to breach that security.

I agree that it is a lessor category of crime than rape and murder and such. Usually Trespassers are at minimum made to leave when they are caught trespassing.

That being said, if we stop giving those here illegally de facto legal status by allowing them access to things like public schools, driver’s licenses, jobs (not using e-verify), etc then there will be much less incentive for new illegal immigration.

If you deny things like access to public schools, welfare, and other government benefits, what is your problem with undocumented foreigners?

At the end of the day, you are still insinuating that someone must be a citizen or on the path to citizenship in order to be able to participate in the free market. Here's the real bottom line problem:

Those who are on this border security kick cannot differentiate between citizenship and the Rights of every human. When I hire people around my place, if they've done work for a neighbor; if I like their prices / terms; if I get the warm and fuzzy feeling, then they get the job. No matter what laws they pass, that is never going to change.

If you want people to come here "legally," let them come in at a border checkpoint. Issue Worker IDs if necessary. But, this dishonest and totalitarian B.S. of visas that are capped and endless delays just to enter the United States is idiotic, pointless, and tyrannical. It makes a mockery of the view that our country is open to anyone. You can't have the Statue of Liberty welcoming people into the country on one hand and then making it impossible for people to come here.

The bottom line is that YOU would not allow a worthless piece of paper, issued by a tyrannical government deter YOU from taking a job to feed your family. YOU would not allow Donald Trump to tell you that you couldn't go to Mexico and take a job there in order to feed your family - AND have to forfeit your citizenship here just to keep a roof over your family's head.

You can sugar-coat it any way you want, but the nutty wall idea came from people who want the United States to be an all white country. I'd have more respect for them and their supporters if they would simply quit trying to pee down our necks and tell us it's raining. A lot of undocumented workers are being discovered today that have been here for twenty years or more. They have gotten an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number, paid the taxes, and obeyed all the other laws. They did not become citizens. They may have had opportunities to become citizens and they passed on it. What's the real problem? Where is the security issue? Why should anyone stand in any line in order to exercise the Rights of Liberty? Guest Workers don't need to be standing in a line with people wanting to become citizens. Guest Workers shouldn't even be on a list to become a citizen.

Look, if you have a problem with those people working the jobs, then boycott businesses that employ an inordinate amount of foreigners. I see people offering jobs to Muslims, Jews, etc. and if I don't see some American faces, I boycott the business. I don't try to tell that business who to hire nor what to pay. If foreigners come here properly and they don't assimilate, I don't give two hoots in Hell what their story is. They are no better than the paper-less foreigner that comes here and blends in. Denying one employer the opportunity to hire a foreigner by making them stand in a line that ought to be for people seeking citizenship (and even those ought to be able to come and wait if they have the financial ability to be here) is discriminatory - and unconstitutional - as it denies the employer the equal protection of the laws. If you don't like foreigners, then let the market decide. If Americans don't want them here, don't hire them, don't sell to them, and quit shopping at businesses that employ them. But, don't assume you have the Right to stand in the way of the Liberties of your fellow American NOR the foreigner who takes advantage of an opportunity willingly offered.

Nothing to do with Race.
You just proved you've never watched this.

 

[charwin95]

85% of our crops will rot in the field without illegally migrant workers. They deserve sanctuary in all 50 states.

LOL, less than 50% of field workers are illegals, how do you then suppose over 85% of our crops will rot? SMFH
Many crops can be harvested with machines, its the up front expense to the farmer as to why he doesn't purchase them and not hire manual labor.

Not sure where got the 50% but I know farmers that owns very large farms in Delano, Bakersfield and Arizona area and most or all are Illegals. Some has green cards but they are all Hispanics.
Machine operators are also illegals.

Wages rise on California farms. Americans still don't want the job

To keep crops from rotting in the field, farmers say they need Trump to let in more temporary workers

Well which is it, most or all are illegals, yet some have green cards? I'll bet some are even US Citizens. SMFH So what if they are all Hispanic in Southern CA and AZ. PEW research gave the % number, its easy enough to look up.

As to your second link, the farmers need to use the tools they have allowed for them, namely the H2A visa, they choose not to use it. If they don't like it then they need to lobby to get it changed, but until it is they are stuck with using it, or take the chance at being caught if they knowingly hire illegals.

Incorrect. Some has green cards that’s been here for decades but the percentage is extremely very low. The % you are talking about doesn’t reflect the reality. Farmers don’t have much choices but use the available labor they have for several decades.
H2A visa is more expensive than using the illegals because you have to corral them making sure they don’t escape, provide food and housing and some forms of clothing. Why bother when you can hire existing people?
Some of these H2A people coming from Asia don’t even show up to their assigned sponsors. They just disappear from the airport.

A long time ago maybe 10 years or so kids in my neighborhood cuts grass, clean pools and wash cars etc. Today not a single one of these kids can be seen except Mexicans just like my gardener for 5 years. I pay him $145 a month to maintain my lawn 3 times a month no more than 45 minutes each time. Even if we as a whole want to hire Americans. Where are they?

I know several people that own home care where they converted their houses to take care old people here in Ca, Ar, and Hawaii. No a single white or black Americans but ONLY Mexicans or Asians are available making from $12 to $18/hour with overtime.

Incorrect? Yet you post no link for your support as to percentages, just your opinion based non-sense.

Most illegals do not work in agriculture — only about 4 percent of the illegal-immigrant population is employed in farming. In no state is farming the predominant occupation of illegal immigrants; even in places such as California, where labor-intensive fruit-and-vegetable farming attracts a relatively large illegal workforce, the main occupations of illegals are in hospitality (restaurants and hotels), services, and transportation. Likewise, most of the people working in agriculture are not illegals: The great majority of the farming workforce is composed of legal workers, with illegals constituting about one-fourth of the total. Illegals make up a larger share of the farm workforce than they do any other labor pool, but they remain a small though not inconsequential minority of workers.

Read more at: The Specter of the $20 Avocado

Legal workers includes, H2A workers, LPR's, and citizens. SMFH

How about this from PEW

Although they were 5% of the overall workforce in 2012, unauthorized immigrants represent a notably higher share of workers in some industries where they are concentrated. They were 16% of employees in the agriculture industry, 12% of employees in the construction industry and 9% of employees in the leisure and hospitality industry.

Unauthorized immigrants are particularly concentrated in some subsets of each major industry. In 2012, they represented 24% of workers in the landscaping industry, 23% of those in private household employment, 20% of those in apparel manufacturing, 20% in crop production, 19% in the dry cleaning and laundry industry and 19% of those in building maintenance.


Chapter 2: Industries of Unauthorized Immigrant Workers

Again, like I previously stated, they are not a majority workforce in any industry in the US.

Where I live the lawn care guys are all white with the exception of the commercial landscapers that do the city contracts. As for in home health care, I see Asians predominantly, whites and blacks. House cleaning services I see both Hispanic and White, in fact I have a white US Citizen that comes and cleans my house weekly. SHRUG

Just because you see something in specific areas doesn't mean it is that way everywhere.

Very funny.
Again I post based on experience and reality.
I asked you to provide me the locations you are talking about. Where is that?

I do not need to show you a link to support what I’m saying. So if I know a large farmer owners In California and Arizona. what made you think the next door farmers are doing any different?
I already prove to you that H2A is a joke and not cost effective.
I also used Molly maids to clean both of my houses and they are illegals from Cuba and Mexico.

Where you live? That’s funny. You are giving me your very limited experience. How many health care owners that you know one? How about If i will tell you about 40 home care owners located here in California, Texas, Arizona, Nevada and Hawaii.

Funny. I never said illegals are the majority of workforce in America.

 

[JoeMoma]

I know! Let's have open borders and sanctuary cities and states everywhere so you do can pretty much do whatever you want up including shooting people and get away with it. Oh, and then let's give 'em every benefit that American citizens get, the whole 9 yards. Most of 'em will vote democrat so we'll be back in charge! The country will go to hell in a handbasket but who cares, we'll blame the repubs!

Dems are after more Democrat voters in the medium to long run.

There is little to no credible evidence that illegals vote in appreciable numbers.

That’s why I didn’t say in the short term. If the millions currently here are given a path to citizenship then they will be able to vote. Isn’t that what is currently being hashed out with DACA? I am not necessarily against giving the dreamers legal status. I am against giving millions a path to citizenship ahead of those that follow the rules and immigrant legally. And if the millions that are currently here are granted a path to citizenship, we are going to simply repeat the cycle started by Reagan when amnesty was granted in the 80s if we don’t take measures to secure the border.

 

[Coyote]

I know! Let's have open borders and sanctuary cities and states everywhere so you do can pretty much do whatever you want up including shooting people and get away with it. Oh, and then let's give 'em every benefit that American citizens get, the whole 9 yards. Most of 'em will vote democrat so we'll be back in charge! The country will go to hell in a handbasket but who cares, we'll blame the repubs!

Dems are after more Democrat voters in the medium to long run.

There is little to no credible evidence that illegals vote in appreciable numbers.

That’s why I didn’t say in the short term. If the millions currently here are given a path to citizenship then they will be able to vote. Isn’t that what is currently being hashed out with DACA? I am not necessarily against giving the dreamers legal status. I am against giving millions a path to citizenship ahead of those that follow the rules and immigrant legally. And if the millions that are currently here are granted a path to citizenship, we are going to simply repeat the cycle started by Reagan when amnesty was granted in the 80s if we don’t take measures to secure the border.

I can see your point though I feel strongly about giving dreamers legal status, I think something in line of work permits for the others would be a better solution.

 

[JoeMoma]

The 14th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States was illegally ratified. It does not matter what the original intent was. It was illegally ratified and deliberately misinterpreted. AND, adding insult to injury, the United States Supreme Court claims t

That’s not the consensus of the United States Government. Like it or not, that’s the government that is currently in charge here. I personally believe that the federal government has expanded its laws beyond the powers enumerated by the constitution; however, I have to live in reality.

 

[Liquid Reigns]

LOL, less than 50% of field workers are illegals, how do you then suppose over 85% of our crops will rot? SMFH
Many crops can be harvested with machines, its the up front expense to the farmer as to why he doesn't purchase them and not hire manual labor.

Not sure where got the 50% but I know farmers that owns very large farms in Delano, Bakersfield and Arizona area and most or all are Illegals. Some has green cards but they are all Hispanics.
Machine operators are also illegals.

Wages rise on California farms. Americans still don't want the job

To keep crops from rotting in the field, farmers say they need Trump to let in more temporary workers

Well which is it, most or all are illegals, yet some have green cards? I'll bet some are even US Citizens. SMFH So what if they are all Hispanic in Southern CA and AZ. PEW research gave the % number, its easy enough to look up.

As to your second link, the farmers need to use the tools they have allowed for them, namely the H2A visa, they choose not to use it. If they don't like it then they need to lobby to get it changed, but until it is they are stuck with using it, or take the chance at being caught if they knowingly hire illegals.

Incorrect. Some has green cards that’s been here for decades but the percentage is extremely very low. The % you are talking about doesn’t reflect the reality. Farmers don’t have much choices but use the available labor they have for several decades.
H2A visa is more expensive than using the illegals because you have to corral them making sure they don’t escape, provide food and housing and some forms of clothing. Why bother when you can hire existing people?
Some of these H2A people coming from Asia don’t even show up to their assigned sponsors. They just disappear from the airport.

A long time ago maybe 10 years or so kids in my neighborhood cuts grass, clean pools and wash cars etc. Today not a single one of these kids can be seen except Mexicans just like my gardener for 5 years. I pay him $145 a month to maintain my lawn 3 times a month no more than 45 minutes each time. Even if we as a whole want to hire Americans. Where are they?

I know several people that own home care where they converted their houses to take care old people here in Ca, Ar, and Hawaii. No a single white or black Americans but ONLY Mexicans or Asians are available making from $12 to $18/hour with overtime.

Incorrect? Yet you post no link for your support as to percentages, just your opinion based non-sense.

Most illegals do not work in agriculture — only about 4 percent of the illegal-immigrant population is employed in farming. In no state is farming the predominant occupation of illegal immigrants; even in places such as California, where labor-intensive fruit-and-vegetable farming attracts a relatively large illegal workforce, the main occupations of illegals are in hospitality (restaurants and hotels), services, and transportation. Likewise, most of the people working in agriculture are not illegals: The great majority of the farming workforce is composed of legal workers, with illegals constituting about one-fourth of the total. Illegals make up a larger share of the farm workforce than they do any other labor pool, but they remain a small though not inconsequential minority of workers.

Read more at: The Specter of the $20 Avocado

Legal workers includes, H2A workers, LPR's, and citizens. SMFH

How about this from PEW

Although they were 5% of the overall workforce in 2012, unauthorized immigrants represent a notably higher share of workers in some industries where they are concentrated. They were 16% of employees in the agriculture industry, 12% of employees in the construction industry and 9% of employees in the leisure and hospitality industry.

Unauthorized immigrants are particularly concentrated in some subsets of each major industry. In 2012, they represented 24% of workers in the landscaping industry, 23% of those in private household employment, 20% of those in apparel manufacturing, 20% in crop production, 19% in the dry cleaning and laundry industry and 19% of those in building maintenance.


Chapter 2: Industries of Unauthorized Immigrant Workers

Again, like I previously stated, they are not a majority workforce in any industry in the US.

Where I live the lawn care guys are all white with the exception of the commercial landscapers that do the city contracts. As for in home health care, I see Asians predominantly, whites and blacks. House cleaning services I see both Hispanic and White, in fact I have a white US Citizen that comes and cleans my house weekly. SHRUG

Just because you see something in specific areas doesn't mean it is that way everywhere.

Very funny.
Again I post based on experience and reality.
I asked you to provide me the locations you are talking about. Where is that?

I do not need to show you a link to support what I’m saying. So if I know a large farmer owners In California and Arizona. what made you think the next door farmers are doing any different?
I already prove to you that H2A is a joke and not cost effective.
I also used Molly maids to clean both of my houses and they are illegals from Cuba and Mexico.

Where you live? That’s funny. You are giving me your very limited experience. How many health care owners that you know one? How about If i will tell you about 40 home care owners located here in California, Texas, Arizona, Nevada and Hawaii.

Funny. I never said illegals are the majority of workforce in America.

Again, you posted mostly on hearsay from your little circle of people you know. SHRUG

I know farmers too in California and Texas, in fact I do work for some, their experiences are much different. And as I pointed out roughly 1/4 of farm workers are illegals. There is not a single industry in which illegals make up the majority of workers. You proved the H2A is a Joke? LMFAO Your opinion is not proof of anything. SMFH

You really need to brush up on your English Comprehension.

I gave you my opinion and what I see along with numerous links that you don't seem to adept at understanding. Either back up your inept opinion or come up with something new.

 

[Humorme]

The 14th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States was illegally ratified. It does not matter what the original intent was. It was illegally ratified and deliberately misinterpreted. AND, adding insult to injury, the United States Supreme Court claims t

That’s not the consensus of the United States Government. Like it or not, that’s the government that is currently in charge here. I personally believe that the federal government has expanded its laws beyond the powers enumerated by the constitution; however, I have to live in reality.

I live in reality as well. That is why the argument that the 14th Amendment is not being interpreted as the original intent holds no more weight than my argument does.

Reality is reality.

And, the reality is, if only a portion of America practices passive resistance and civil disobedience toward the 14th Amendment, it falls regardless of what the United States Supreme Court does. It takes less effort to let the 14th fall via citizen attitudes versus trying to amend the Constitution.

 

[Humorme]

LOL, less than 50% of field workers are illegals, how do you then suppose over 85% of our crops will rot? SMFH
Many crops can be harvested with machines, its the up front expense to the farmer as to why he doesn't purchase them and not hire manual labor.

Not sure where got the 50% but I know farmers that owns very large farms in Delano, Bakersfield and Arizona area and most or all are Illegals. Some has green cards but they are all Hispanics.
Machine operators are also illegals.

Wages rise on California farms. Americans still don't want the job

To keep crops from rotting in the field, farmers say they need Trump to let in more temporary workers

Well which is it, most or all are illegals, yet some have green cards? I'll bet some are even US Citizens. SMFH So what if they are all Hispanic in Southern CA and AZ. PEW research gave the % number, its easy enough to look up.

As to your second link, the farmers need to use the tools they have allowed for them, namely the H2A visa, they choose not to use it. If they don't like it then they need to lobby to get it changed, but until it is they are stuck with using it, or take the chance at being caught if they knowingly hire illegals.

Incorrect. Some has green cards that’s been here for decades but the percentage is extremely very low. The % you are talking about doesn’t reflect the reality. Farmers don’t have much choices but use the available labor they have for several decades.
H2A visa is more expensive than using the illegals because you have to corral them making sure they don’t escape, provide food and housing and some forms of clothing. Why bother when you can hire existing people?
Some of these H2A people coming from Asia don’t even show up to their assigned sponsors. They just disappear from the airport.

A long time ago maybe 10 years or so kids in my neighborhood cuts grass, clean pools and wash cars etc. Today not a single one of these kids can be seen except Mexicans just like my gardener for 5 years. I pay him $145 a month to maintain my lawn 3 times a month no more than 45 minutes each time. Even if we as a whole want to hire Americans. Where are they?

I know several people that own home care where they converted their houses to take care old people here in Ca, Ar, and Hawaii. No a single white or black Americans but ONLY Mexicans or Asians are available making from $12 to $18/hour with overtime.

Incorrect? Yet you post no link for your support as to percentages, just your opinion based non-sense.

Most illegals do not work in agriculture — only about 4 percent of the illegal-immigrant population is employed in farming. In no state is farming the predominant occupation of illegal immigrants; even in places such as California, where labor-intensive fruit-and-vegetable farming attracts a relatively large illegal workforce, the main occupations of illegals are in hospitality (restaurants and hotels), services, and transportation. Likewise, most of the people working in agriculture are not illegals: The great majority of the farming workforce is composed of legal workers, with illegals constituting about one-fourth of the total. Illegals make up a larger share of the farm workforce than they do any other labor pool, but they remain a small though not inconsequential minority of workers.

Read more at: The Specter of the $20 Avocado

Legal workers includes, H2A workers, LPR's, and citizens. SMFH

How about this from PEW

Although they were 5% of the overall workforce in 2012, unauthorized immigrants represent a notably higher share of workers in some industries where they are concentrated. They were 16% of employees in the agriculture industry, 12% of employees in the construction industry and 9% of employees in the leisure and hospitality industry.

Unauthorized immigrants are particularly concentrated in some subsets of each major industry. In 2012, they represented 24% of workers in the landscaping industry, 23% of those in private household employment, 20% of those in apparel manufacturing, 20% in crop production, 19% in the dry cleaning and laundry industry and 19% of those in building maintenance.


Chapter 2: Industries of Unauthorized Immigrant Workers

Again, like I previously stated, they are not a majority workforce in any industry in the US.

Where I live the lawn care guys are all white with the exception of the commercial landscapers that do the city contracts. As for in home health care, I see Asians predominantly, whites and blacks. House cleaning services I see both Hispanic and White, in fact I have a white US Citizen that comes and cleans my house weekly. SHRUG

Just because you see something in specific areas doesn't mean it is that way everywhere.

Very funny.
Again I post based on experience and reality.
I asked you to provide me the locations you are talking about. Where is that?

I do not need to show you a link to support what I’m saying. So if I know a large farmer owners In California and Arizona. what made you think the next door farmers are doing any different?
I already prove to you that H2A is a joke and not cost effective.
I also used Molly maids to clean both of my houses and they are illegals from Cuba and Mexico.

Where you live? That’s funny. You are giving me your very limited experience. How many health care owners that you know one? How about If i will tell you about 40 home care owners located here in California, Texas, Arizona, Nevada and Hawaii.

Funny. I never said illegals are the majority of workforce in America.

You don't know what you're talking about. If you catch someone at the border, you ship them home. If they are here, they are presumed to be innocent AND IT IS NOT ILLEGAL FOR THEM TO BE HERE.

Certainly I know what I'm talking about. You are trying to snarl something obvious in a trap of words that favors the leftwing, open-borders side, but not doing very well at it since no one is likely to get confused about this issue. Of course it is illegal for an illegal to be here: THAT is exactly why we call them illegal!

If you were right, Immigration wouldn't be chasing illegals around 7-11 stores, you know. But they are chasing them there and elsewhere. This reminds me of people who want to make homosexuality "normal" by using words, words, words --- when if it were normal, after all, we wouldn't be talking about it! By constantly talking about it, the leftists disprove their own contention.

Same thing here. If they weren't illegal, we wouldn't call them illegals. You are trying to get us NOT to call them illegals anymore with the hope of that somehow fixing the problem that they come into the country illegally, like calling retarded people mentally handicapped or special needs will somehow fix the problem with their poor mental ability and make it go away.

Hope on, hope ever.

Your words:

"Of course it is illegal for an illegal to be here"

RESPONSE:


"Michele M. Taylor, the group’s associate director for communications, pointed to the 2012 Supreme Court case Arizona vs. United States. The majority opinion found that "as a general rule, it is not a crime for a removable alien to remain present in the United States."

Experts agreed. Unlawful presence is neither a felony nor a misdemeanor, said Ilya Shapiro, a senior fellow in constitutional studies at the libertarian Cato Institute. It is a civil infraction that results in removal and a bar on re-entry for a certain period of time.

"Not everything that’s illegal — meaning against the law or violating the law — is a crime," Shapiro said. "There are civil violations, like when you get a parking ticket. ‘Unlawful presence’ is one of these. You don't go to jail or receive any other criminal punishment for being in the country illegally — you get deported."

Is being in the United States unlawfully a 'crime'?

Also see this:

Supreme Court Decision on Arizona Immigration Law

The United States Supreme Court has ruled. Research Arizona v. U.S.

I'm giving you the facts, not stroking my ego about some idiotic false assumption as you are. And NO, acknowledging the facts does not make me a liberal. It gives me the advantage of understanding reality. Earlier in this thread I told you how immigration laws are interpreted by those who make the decisions.

Since you disagree with me, I suppose you have actually been involved in an actual immigration case and have presented - and prevailed with your position??? Can you cite the case you have experience with? Those were rhetorical questions.

 

[Humorme]

Poll: Most support path to legal status for illegal immigrants

Nearly two-thirds of Americans say there should be a path to legal status for undocumented immigrants, according to a new poll, and only 26 percent think stopping border crossings should be the top immigration priority.

Sixty percent say a pathway for legal residency should be the government’s immigration priority in the CNN/ORC survey released Friday.

Thirteen percent said deporting illegal immigrants should instead be immigration priority No. 1. One percent had no opinion.

Pollsters report 58 percent worry deportation efforts will go too far by deporting people who have not committed serious crimes, compared to 40 percent who fear deportation efforts would be too lenient, letting dangerous criminals remain in the U.S. untouched. Two percent had no response.

Twenty-seven percent said the government should deport all illegal immigrants, while by 71 percent disagree.​

Fox News Poll: 83 percent support pathway to citizenship for illegal immigrants

The poll finds a record-high 83 percent of voters support setting up a system for all illegal immigrants who are currently working in the country to become legal residents, up nine points since last year. Just 14 percent say “deport as many as possible,” down from a high of 30 percent in July 2015.

There is rare partisan agreement on all fronts.

Democrats (66 percent), Republicans (60 percent) and independents (59 percent) all agree it is important Congress work on Dreamer legislation. Partisans are also in sync on granting work permits and U.S. citizenship to these individuals, as majorities of Democrats, Republicans, and independents favor both actions.

Moreover, 63 percent of Trump voters favor granting Dreamers citizenship.

Setting up a system to legalize undocumented immigrants working in the U.S. also receives bipartisan support: most Democrats (95 percent legalize vs. 4 percent deport), Republicans (69-28 percent) and independents (82-13 percent) want legalization to happen.

http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...y-statistic-do-80-percent-americans-oppose-s/

A survey from Harvard–Harris Poll provided exclusively to The Hill found that 80 percent of voters say local authorities should have to comply with the law by reporting to federal agents the illegal immigrants they come into contact with.

The Harvard–Harris Poll survey found strong support for an overhaul of the nation's immigration laws, with 77 percent saying they support comprehensive immigration reform against only 23 percent who oppose.

“While there is broad support for comprehensive immigration reform, there is overwhelming opposition to sanctuary cities,” said Harvard–Harris co-director Mark Penn. “The public wants honest immigrants treated fairly and those who commit crimes deported and that's very clear from the data.”​

And...an interesting analysis in reference to the above poll specifically but can be applied to all polls: Do 80 percent of Americans oppose sanctuary cities?

One of our readers asked us to investigate. We decided not to put the 80 percent finding to the Truth-O-Meter, because we don’t doubt the reliability of the poll itself. But questions phrased differently can show dramatically different results.

All told, the finding is a case study in how poll results can be seized by advocates for one side of an issue -- and how some of the nuances in the questions and the answers can be lost in the hubbub.

A closer look at the questions
The question in the poll that attracted the most attention -- certainly from the political right -- was this one: "Should cities that arrest illegal immigrants for crimes be required to turn them over to immigration authorities?" On this question, 80 percent of respondents said yes.

But as we looked into the question, we noticed a couple things.

One was that, despite the blaring headlines about sanctuary cities, the question being asked didn’t actually use the words "sanctuary cities." The other concerned words that the question did use -- "arrest" and "crimes."

To understand why such wording choices matter -- and why they could potentially change the results of the poll -- we first need to review what the term "sanctuary city" actually means.

The question wording
The specific wording used to ask any poll question is always important. It’s not even necessarily a comparison of "good wording" vs."bad wording" -- if a question is asked a certain way, it could nudge respondents to answer in one direction.


In this case, respondents were asked about "crimes." To many, that could bring to mind "violent crimes," especially when paired with the term "arrest."

But the experts we spoke to said the jurisdictions described as sanctuary cities don’t simply let murderers, rapists, armed robbers and other people they arrest for violent crimes go free. Not only would federal immigration officials be notified, but the violent crimes they were charged with would be prosecuted.

Instead, where the rubber hits the road with sanctuary cities is with lesser, non-violent offenses, even down to a broken tail light -- or simply any interaction with police, such as an undocumented immigrant becoming a happenstance witness to a crime. These are the cases in which police in sanctuary cities would typically be trained to refrain from asking for immigration status or informing federal immigration officials.

And this nuance is not captured by the question that garnered 80 percent support in the Harvard-Harris poll -- as well as the lion’s share of headlines.

"Question wording always affects responses," said Steven S. Smith, a political scientist and pollster at Washington University in St. Louis. "‘Arrest … for crimes’ certainly primes the respondent to think that the person is dangerous and therefore should be a high priority in immigration law enforcement."

Karlyn Bowman, a polling analyst at the American Enterprise Institute, noted that there is little history of past polling on the issue of sanctuary cities. But she did uncover one poll released a few days after the Harvard-Harris poll that seems to back up the idea that different wording can substantially change the result.

The poll, conducted by Quinnipiac University and released on Feb. 23, asked, "Thinking about people who have immigrated to the U.S. illegally, who do you think should be deported: Should no illegal immigrants be deported, only illegal immigrants that have committed serious crimes, only illegal immigrants that have committed any crime, or should all illegal immigrants be deported?"

The results: Only 3 percent said no illegal immigrants should be deported, and 19 percent said all illegal immigrants should be deported. But 53 percent of respondents said deportations should only be done for "serious crimes," compared to 22 percent for "any crime."

That’s not just a plurality -- it’s a majority. And that tells a different story than the Internet headlines.​

I do not agree with some of the things that the majority of the American people have stated relative to this (especially the pathway to citizenship.) But, what you posted is an accurate reflection of the facts.

 

[Liquid Reigns]

Since you disagree with me, I suppose you have actually been involved in an actual immigration case and have presented - and prevailed with your position??? Can you cite the case you have experience with? Those were rhetorical questions.

You being called as a witness in a court case doesn't constitute you prevailing in your position. SMFH

 

[charwin95]

As i posted several times here. I know tons of businesses and business owners and farmers. These where I based my facts and opinions when it come to this topic.

The economy is booming. Without these illegals the economy will not be this good especially here in California the 6th largest economy of the world. That’s a fact.

California Crops Rot as Immigration Crackdown Creates Farmworker Shortage

The farmers have brought it on themselves if they are not using the H2A visa as there is no limit on the amount of workers they can bring in.

Your opinion is not factual and basing what you claim as facts on the few people you know isn't a large enough pool to make a claim on.

So lets look at your link

It’s unclear exactly how widespread the labor shortage is for farmers throughout the country, which would have a bigger impact on prices consumers pay. Ultimately, drought and flooding have a more significant impact on farms. Low oil prices could also offset any impact of the worker shortage.

What? Its unclear how widespread the labor shortage is? Drought and flooding have a bigger impact? Oil prices can offset worker shortages?

Looks like opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. I suggest you don't claim opinion as fact as it always comes back to bite you.

Your opinion is based from what you read. My opinion is based from reality and experience with real farmers and business owners. I already explained myself how dumb is H2A program is.

LMFAO What you think and what you see is based on you perceived notions in specific areas. Your opinion is based on your very limited circle of friends.

Whether you think the H2A is stupid or not has no bearing, it is there for the specific purpose of farmers to use, and if they fail to use it then it is there failure and nobody else's. I am a business owner in the Landscape industry and I have no problem getting white/black guys who all have legal documents (as I use E-verify) to work for me. SHRUG

Limited circle of friends? Really?

Are you telling just because you a landscaper you know more about labor force than me? You are funnier than I thought. Talking about limited.

I never said H2A was stupid. It’s just not cost effective. If you think you are accurate then we should not have a shortage of illegals here in California and Arizona. You probably don’t even know a single farmer.

Let me repeat it again. Hiring a people via H2A will require for the farmer to provide.
1. Board and lodging.
2. Corral them making sure they don’t escape.
3. Responsible for sending them back.
4. Some form of health care assistance.
5. Some form of clothing.
6. Do you honestly believe an H2A individual that came all the way from India or Philippines etc etc will fly here just to pick strawberries? These farmers will send their best educated kids here to seek better living aside from farming. That’s a fact.

So what the point when there are illegals everywhere?

I have not met a single farmers in Asia or India that are rich.

You can shrug however you want but it is what it is.

I have not seen black and white landscapers for a very long time. Few blacks probably in Los Angeles ghetto.
I’m talking about Los Angeles, San Diego, Orange, San Bernardino and Riverside County.

I’m pretty sure you probably don’t even know the labor shortages of rebuilding Houston after Harvey and Irma in Florida.

 

[charwin95]

You have to include packing houses, slaughter houses (feed market), and restaurants. Without all these illegal workers, our economy will take a nose dive. The farmers will only be able to salvage about 15% of their crop.

Look what happened in Alabama.

LOL, the slaughter houses had people lined up to work there when Bush raided them and got rid of all the illegal workers. Restaurants would lose buss boys, but guess what, young 16 - 20 year old's would take those jobs.

Those days without an illegal 10 or so years ago blew up in their faces. Our economy wouldn't notice them being gone. Farmers would lose some, it wouldn't be an 85% loss, at best a 20% loss.

Alabama? some farmers claiming losses, yet produce costs did not change nor were there produce shortages in the markets. gofigure

That’s funny. There are slaughterhouse here and I don’t see anyone but Hispanics.
Oh yes guarantee you 100% they will be missed if those illegals are gone.
I don’t see 16 or even 25 yo white boys or girls working in restaurants as buss boys here. They don’t even work at McDonald’s. Kids are not the same like it used to be. Get that straight.

Did you research what happened in Alabama?

Where are you getting your opinions?

So are you assuming because they are Hispanics then they are also illegals? Sure seems you are associating there heritage to them being illegally here. SMFH

Up here in Northern California white boys and girls are working as bus boys and dishwashers in local restaurants. I have 2 McDonalds within 2 miles of where I live, the people working in them have every color of skin tone one could imagine, and they all speak English without accents. :SHRUG:

Maybe you should actually research the subject verse reading headlines and basing your opinion off things you don't seem to adept at truly knowing.

LOL. I’m not assuming anything because of their looks. I talked to my friends that are business owners from different categories just about everything. From how much they get paid, who work harder Mexicans or Salvadorians or Guatemalans or where they live etc etc.

I know several McDonald’s owners and restaurants. Do you mind telling me where that McDonald’s in northern Ca you are telling me? I know some of them in that locations.
Kids now are so different now compared from a long time ago.

Sure you are, your claims are based on your limited sample, the few people you know. Hell I have kids in high school and out of high school that send me resumes for jobs they want, at least 3 a week. With the equipment I use and my insurance requirements I am limited who I can hire. There are 2 McDonalds along Highway 65 between Rocklin/Roseville and Sheridan, both have high school kids of all colors working in them, so does the Taco Bell, Jack in the Box, Burger King, Subway, Togos, Red Robin, Panda Express, Carls Jr, etc.

Nah! You are saying kids applying jobs to your landscape. So what happened to the your older employees with experience? I have not seen a black and white landscapers for a very long time let alone kids.

Sure there are places in America that employ kids. I never said ALL.

 

[charwin95]

As i posted several times here. I know tons of businesses and business owners and farmers. These where I based my facts and opinions when it come to this topic.

The economy is booming. Without these illegals the economy will not be this good especially here in California the 6th largest economy of the world. That’s a fact.

California Crops Rot as Immigration Crackdown Creates Farmworker Shortage

Georgia has had the same problem for years:

Georgia's Harsh Immigration Law Costs Millions in Unharvested Crops

Migrant workers still in need

"Crops went untended as the season's harvest began, and more than $1 million a day vanished as the human-fueled agricultural harvest machine of migrant labor in the United States stalled."

Ben Carson's Immigrant Visa Idea Favored By Farmers As Nation's Crops Rot

It's been an issue in Alabama for years as well and some say this is a problem nationwide (and has been for as long as the crackdowns have been going on):

Alabama Illegal Immigrant Crackdown Destroys Farm Business

Crops rot while Trump-led immigration backlash idles farm work

If they used the H2A visa, then there would be no problems for them, they would have all the labor they need since there are no annual caps for the H2A nor is there a limit to how many a single farmer can bring in.

1. Illegals are here and they need to work instead of relying from welfare. Why is that so bad?
2. If it’s easier and cost effective to hire H2A don’t you think all of them could have done that?

Your opinion does not reflect the reality.

1) Illegals are here, and they need to be removed. Then we don't have to worry about if they are or not receiving welfare or tax refunds they aren't entitled to via the ITIN they file with.

2)Doesn't matter if its easier or cost effective, it is what is at their disposal they refuse to use. Maybe they should mechanize and they won't have to deal with field labor ever again. SHRUG

My opinion does reflect reality, as I showed, your limited samples don't represent anything outside of your limited samples. Do you really think there are illegals working in naked/titi bars and hospitals? SMFH

1. Based from your very limited experience. You have no clue the importance of illegals contribution to California’s economy. You have no clue. Get real.

2. You own a business? Really?
Running a business cost effective is VERY important just incase you don’t know what you are talking about.

Based from I heard from you have very limited knowledge of labor force. Your opinion does not reflect reality.
I never said illegals work at titi bars and hospitals. I just gave you the examples the scopes of my experience in the labor force. Not from a landscapers.

 

[charwin95]

Not sure where got the 50% but I know farmers that owns very large farms in Delano, Bakersfield and Arizona area and most or all are Illegals. Some has green cards but they are all Hispanics.
Machine operators are also illegals.

Wages rise on California farms. Americans still don't want the job

To keep crops from rotting in the field, farmers say they need Trump to let in more temporary workers

Well which is it, most or all are illegals, yet some have green cards? I'll bet some are even US Citizens. SMFH So what if they are all Hispanic in Southern CA and AZ. PEW research gave the % number, its easy enough to look up.

As to your second link, the farmers need to use the tools they have allowed for them, namely the H2A visa, they choose not to use it. If they don't like it then they need to lobby to get it changed, but until it is they are stuck with using it, or take the chance at being caught if they knowingly hire illegals.

Incorrect. Some has green cards that’s been here for decades but the percentage is extremely very low. The % you are talking about doesn’t reflect the reality. Farmers don’t have much choices but use the available labor they have for several decades.
H2A visa is more expensive than using the illegals because you have to corral them making sure they don’t escape, provide food and housing and some forms of clothing. Why bother when you can hire existing people?
Some of these H2A people coming from Asia don’t even show up to their assigned sponsors. They just disappear from the airport.

A long time ago maybe 10 years or so kids in my neighborhood cuts grass, clean pools and wash cars etc. Today not a single one of these kids can be seen except Mexicans just like my gardener for 5 years. I pay him $145 a month to maintain my lawn 3 times a month no more than 45 minutes each time. Even if we as a whole want to hire Americans. Where are they?

I know several people that own home care where they converted their houses to take care old people here in Ca, Ar, and Hawaii. No a single white or black Americans but ONLY Mexicans or Asians are available making from $12 to $18/hour with overtime.

Incorrect? Yet you post no link for your support as to percentages, just your opinion based non-sense.

Most illegals do not work in agriculture — only about 4 percent of the illegal-immigrant population is employed in farming. In no state is farming the predominant occupation of illegal immigrants; even in places such as California, where labor-intensive fruit-and-vegetable farming attracts a relatively large illegal workforce, the main occupations of illegals are in hospitality (restaurants and hotels), services, and transportation. Likewise, most of the people working in agriculture are not illegals: The great majority of the farming workforce is composed of legal workers, with illegals constituting about one-fourth of the total. Illegals make up a larger share of the farm workforce than they do any other labor pool, but they remain a small though not inconsequential minority of workers.

Read more at: The Specter of the $20 Avocado

Legal workers includes, H2A workers, LPR's, and citizens. SMFH

How about this from PEW

Although they were 5% of the overall workforce in 2012, unauthorized immigrants represent a notably higher share of workers in some industries where they are concentrated. They were 16% of employees in the agriculture industry, 12% of employees in the construction industry and 9% of employees in the leisure and hospitality industry.

Unauthorized immigrants are particularly concentrated in some subsets of each major industry. In 2012, they represented 24% of workers in the landscaping industry, 23% of those in private household employment, 20% of those in apparel manufacturing, 20% in crop production, 19% in the dry cleaning and laundry industry and 19% of those in building maintenance.


Chapter 2: Industries of Unauthorized Immigrant Workers

Again, like I previously stated, they are not a majority workforce in any industry in the US.

Where I live the lawn care guys are all white with the exception of the commercial landscapers that do the city contracts. As for in home health care, I see Asians predominantly, whites and blacks. House cleaning services I see both Hispanic and White, in fact I have a white US Citizen that comes and cleans my house weekly. SHRUG

Just because you see something in specific areas doesn't mean it is that way everywhere.

Very funny.
Again I post based on experience and reality.
I asked you to provide me the locations you are talking about. Where is that?

I do not need to show you a link to support what I’m saying. So if I know a large farmer owners In California and Arizona. what made you think the next door farmers are doing any different?
I already prove to you that H2A is a joke and not cost effective.
I also used Molly maids to clean both of my houses and they are illegals from Cuba and Mexico.

Where you live? That’s funny. You are giving me your very limited experience. How many health care owners that you know one? How about If i will tell you about 40 home care owners located here in California, Texas, Arizona, Nevada and Hawaii.

Funny. I never said illegals are the majority of workforce in America.

Again, you posted mostly on hearsay from your little circle of people you know. SHRUG

I know farmers too in California and Texas, in fact I do work for some, their experiences are much different. And as I pointed out roughly 1/4 of farm workers are illegals. There is not a single industry in which illegals make up the majority of workers. You proved the H2A is a Joke? LMFAO Your opinion is not proof of anything. SMFH

You really need to brush up on your English Comprehension.

I gave you my opinion and what I see along with numerous links that you don't seem to adept at understanding. Either back up your inept opinion or come up with something new.

Suddenly you know a farmer. Very funny. I posted over and over on separate and different threads about farmers I know for almost 3 years. If you think I have a limited knowledge of workforce. But for sure I know far more than a landscaper.

Again I never said illegals are the majority of American workers.

 

[Humorme]

How should illegal immigration be controlled? It seems that the mindset of the sanctuary city/state crowd is that once a person arrives illegally (or over stays a visa), that person should be welcomed to stay, establish permanent residence, become legally employed, receive government services, acquire a driver’s license, enroll children into public schools, and eventually seek citizenship and have the right to vote. In other words, the illegal immigrant is to be granted all the rights, benefits and protections as legal immigrants. How can we control immigration if we don’t treat illegal immigration as a crime and allow illegal immigrants to simply blend into our society? Also, if you believe we should have open boarders making all immigrants legal, just say so!

In my personal opinion...it's complicated.

No, I don't believe in "open boarders" - we need a good immigration and border policy to protect our country.

I think it's important to have a good border security policy. I don't support a physical wall because of it's effect on the natural migrations of wildlife and on border communities. But there are many other good ways of improving security that don't involve a wall.

When it comes to those already here - I am not that concerned unless they commit a violent crime. Then, upon conviction (and jail time) - boot them out. Otherwise I see it as a lesser category of crime...like trespassing. I would rather spend law enforcement dollars on violent crimes - murder, rape, gang violence, drug violence.

I guess I don't understand why an illegal immigrant should be in the same category as a violent rapist.

So if Joe Illegal can sneak across the border tomorrow,then he becomes part of the already here category and gets de facto legal status? I think it sends a mixed message to to have “border security” at the border but no means of enforcement within the borders once someone manages to breach that security.

I agree that it is a lessor category of crime than rape and murder and such. Usually Trespassers are at minimum made to leave when they are caught trespassing.

That being said, if we stop giving those here illegally de facto legal status by allowing them access to things like public schools, driver’s licenses, jobs (not using e-verify), etc then there will be much less incentive for new illegal immigration.

If you deny things like access to public schools, welfare, and other government benefits, what is your problem with undocumented foreigners?

At the end of the day, you are still insinuating that someone must be a citizen or on the path to citizenship in order to be able to participate in the free market. Here's the real bottom line problem:

Those who are on this border security kick cannot differentiate between citizenship and the Rights of every human. When I hire people around my place, if they've done work for a neighbor; if I like their prices / terms; if I get the warm and fuzzy feeling, then they get the job. No matter what laws they pass, that is never going to change.

If you want people to come here "legally," let them come in at a border checkpoint. Issue Worker IDs if necessary. But, this dishonest and totalitarian B.S. of visas that are capped and endless delays just to enter the United States is idiotic, pointless, and tyrannical. It makes a mockery of the view that our country is open to anyone. You can't have the Statue of Liberty welcoming people into the country on one hand and then making it impossible for people to come here.

The bottom line is that YOU would not allow a worthless piece of paper, issued by a tyrannical government deter YOU from taking a job to feed your family. YOU would not allow Donald Trump to tell you that you couldn't go to Mexico and take a job there in order to feed your family - AND have to forfeit your citizenship here just to keep a roof over your family's head.

You can sugar-coat it any way you want, but the nutty wall idea came from people who want the United States to be an all white country. I'd have more respect for them and their supporters if they would simply quit trying to pee down our necks and tell us it's raining. A lot of undocumented workers are being discovered today that have been here for twenty years or more. They have gotten an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number, paid the taxes, and obeyed all the other laws. They did not become citizens. They may have had opportunities to become citizens and they passed on it. What's the real problem? Where is the security issue? Why should anyone stand in any line in order to exercise the Rights of Liberty? Guest Workers don't need to be standing in a line with people wanting to become citizens. Guest Workers shouldn't even be on a list to become a citizen.

Look, if you have a problem with those people working the jobs, then boycott businesses that employ an inordinate amount of foreigners. I see people offering jobs to Muslims, Jews, etc. and if I don't see some American faces, I boycott the business. I don't try to tell that business who to hire nor what to pay. If foreigners come here properly and they don't assimilate, I don't give two hoots in Hell what their story is. They are no better than the paper-less foreigner that comes here and blends in. Denying one employer the opportunity to hire a foreigner by making them stand in a line that ought to be for people seeking citizenship (and even those ought to be able to come and wait if they have the financial ability to be here) is discriminatory - and unconstitutional - as it denies the employer the equal protection of the laws. If you don't like foreigners, then let the market decide. If Americans don't want them here, don't hire them, don't sell to them, and quit shopping at businesses that employ them. But, don't assume you have the Right to stand in the way of the Liberties of your fellow American NOR the foreigner who takes advantage of an opportunity willingly offered.

Nothing to do with Race.
You just proved you've never watched this.

Seen it before, but it proves nothing. It does not discount the last 225 years plus of American history.

 

[Humorme]

I know! Let's have open borders and sanctuary cities and states everywhere so you do can pretty much do whatever you want up including shooting people and get away with it. Oh, and then let's give 'em every benefit that American citizens get, the whole 9 yards. Most of 'em will vote democrat so we'll be back in charge! The country will go to hell in a handbasket but who cares, we'll blame the repubs!

Dems are after more Democrat voters in the medium to long run.

There is little to no credible evidence that illegals vote in appreciable numbers.

That’s why I didn’t say in the short term. If the millions currently here are given a path to citizenship then they will be able to vote. Isn’t that what is currently being hashed out with DACA? I am not necessarily against giving the dreamers legal status. I am against giving millions a path to citizenship ahead of those that follow the rules and immigrant legally. And if the millions that are currently here are granted a path to citizenship, we are going to simply repeat the cycle started by Reagan when amnesty was granted in the 80s if we don’t take measures to secure the border.

Why do you limit yourself to this nonsensical idea of allowing the Dreamers to become citizens at all?

Reality check: Citizenship is NOT doled out on a first come first served basis. That's just the way it is.

What do you not understand about the concept that legal status need NOT end in citizenship?

 

[Liquid Reigns]

As i posted several times here. I know tons of businesses and business owners and farmers. These where I based my facts and opinions when it come to this topic.

The economy is booming. Without these illegals the economy will not be this good especially here in California the 6th largest economy of the world. That’s a fact.

California Crops Rot as Immigration Crackdown Creates Farmworker Shortage

The farmers have brought it on themselves if they are not using the H2A visa as there is no limit on the amount of workers they can bring in.

Your opinion is not factual and basing what you claim as facts on the few people you know isn't a large enough pool to make a claim on.

So lets look at your link

It’s unclear exactly how widespread the labor shortage is for farmers throughout the country, which would have a bigger impact on prices consumers pay. Ultimately, drought and flooding have a more significant impact on farms. Low oil prices could also offset any impact of the worker shortage.

What? Its unclear how widespread the labor shortage is? Drought and flooding have a bigger impact? Oil prices can offset worker shortages?

Looks like opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. I suggest you don't claim opinion as fact as it always comes back to bite you.

Your opinion is based from what you read. My opinion is based from reality and experience with real farmers and business owners. I already explained myself how dumb is H2A program is.

LMFAO What you think and what you see is based on you perceived notions in specific areas. Your opinion is based on your very limited circle of friends.

Whether you think the H2A is stupid or not has no bearing, it is there for the specific purpose of farmers to use, and if they fail to use it then it is there failure and nobody else's. I am a business owner in the Landscape industry and I have no problem getting white/black guys who all have legal documents (as I use E-verify) to work for me. SHRUG

Limited circle of friends? Really?

Are you telling just because you a landscaper you know more about labor force than me? You are funnier than I thought. Talking about limited.

I never said H2A was stupid. It’s just not cost effective. If you think you are accurate then we should not have a shortage of illegals here in California and Arizona. You probably don’t even know a single farmer.

Let me repeat it again. Hiring a people via H2A will require for the farmer to provide.
1. Board and lodging.
2. Corral them making sure they don’t escape.
3. Responsible for sending them back.
4. Some form of health care assistance.
5. Some form of clothing.
6. Do you honestly believe an H2A individual that came all the way from India or Philippines etc etc will fly here just to pick strawberries? These farmers will send their best educated kids here to seek better living aside from farming. That’s a fact.

So what the point when there are illegals everywhere?

I have not met a single farmers in Asia or India that are rich.

You can shrug however you want but it is what it is.

I have not seen black and white landscapers for a very long time. Few blacks probably in Los Angeles ghetto.
I’m talking about Los Angeles, San Diego, Orange, San Bernardino and Riverside County.

I’m pretty sure you probably don’t even know the labor shortages of rebuilding Houston after Harvey and Irma in Florida.

I don't know if you grasp what I stated and the links I showed. You on the other hand have shown nothing in regards to the "labor force". You have espoused what you claim is from your friends and their business practices, hardly indicative of the actual labor force. SHRUG

Actually farmers are hiring H2A visa holders via employment agencies.
Home
and
https://www.manta.com/c/mb4dd4m/h2a-placement-services-inc

So while you show what the farmer would have to do directly related to himself hiring the H2A, you, as usual, fail in knowing anything about the issue. LMFAO

Again, you demonstrate a small section of the US: I’m talking about Los Angeles, San Diego, Orange, San Bernardino and Riverside County. and try to exclaim it is indicative of the entire labor force. You really need to get out more.

Do you understand or even know why there were labor shortages in Florida and Houston?

 

[Liquid Reigns]

LOL, the slaughter houses had people lined up to work there when Bush raided them and got rid of all the illegal workers. Restaurants would lose buss boys, but guess what, young 16 - 20 year old's would take those jobs.

Those days without an illegal 10 or so years ago blew up in their faces. Our economy wouldn't notice them being gone. Farmers would lose some, it wouldn't be an 85% loss, at best a 20% loss.

Alabama? some farmers claiming losses, yet produce costs did not change nor were there produce shortages in the markets. gofigure

That’s funny. There are slaughterhouse here and I don’t see anyone but Hispanics.
Oh yes guarantee you 100% they will be missed if those illegals are gone.
I don’t see 16 or even 25 yo white boys or girls working in restaurants as buss boys here. They don’t even work at McDonald’s. Kids are not the same like it used to be. Get that straight.

Did you research what happened in Alabama?

Where are you getting your opinions?

So are you assuming because they are Hispanics then they are also illegals? Sure seems you are associating there heritage to them being illegally here. SMFH

Up here in Northern California white boys and girls are working as bus boys and dishwashers in local restaurants. I have 2 McDonalds within 2 miles of where I live, the people working in them have every color of skin tone one could imagine, and they all speak English without accents. :SHRUG:

Maybe you should actually research the subject verse reading headlines and basing your opinion off things you don't seem to adept at truly knowing.

LOL. I’m not assuming anything because of their looks. I talked to my friends that are business owners from different categories just about everything. From how much they get paid, who work harder Mexicans or Salvadorians or Guatemalans or where they live etc etc.

I know several McDonald’s owners and restaurants. Do you mind telling me where that McDonald’s in northern Ca you are telling me? I know some of them in that locations.
Kids now are so different now compared from a long time ago.

Sure you are, your claims are based on your limited sample, the few people you know. Hell I have kids in high school and out of high school that send me resumes for jobs they want, at least 3 a week. With the equipment I use and my insurance requirements I am limited who I can hire. There are 2 McDonalds along Highway 65 between Rocklin/Roseville and Sheridan, both have high school kids of all colors working in them, so does the Taco Bell, Jack in the Box, Burger King, Subway, Togos, Red Robin, Panda Express, Carls Jr, etc.

Nah! You are saying kids applying jobs to your landscape. So what happened to the your older employees with experience? I have not seen a black and white landscapers for a very long time let alone kids.

Sure there are places in America that employ kids. I never said ALL.

Nothing happened to my older employees, they still work for me. My climber is Black and from Barbados, my groundsman are white. My youngest worker is 23, my oldest is 53. You inferred kids weren't working in these places, at least now you are admitting they do work in fast food and various other industries.