Rationing Healthcare!

[veritas]

Does this platform provide an ignore button?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Does this platform provide an ignore button?

Oh, yeah, you're all kinds of an example of intelligent, informed, can-do adulthood. I so want to hear YOUR wisdom on how to run the country.

Run away, little idiot. You've done my work for me.

 

[veritas]

Ad hominems, the last bastion of a closed mind.


I wouldn't have to hire an attorney to figure out contract/insurance law. Apparently you would.

Got some more ad hominems you'd like to throw out there?

 

[PoliticalChic]

I keeping hearing this night and day on the radio that the government will ration healthcare! That experimental drugs and treatments will be denied. That people in need of treatment will be denied.

Guess what people, ration already happens in the private system:
(1) Preexisting conditions :
If you have individual insurance, then they deny you coverage for the condition you actually need! Think about it. You need insurance for your health. Say you have a condition like MS, you need insurance to cover that! Yet the company tells you sorry we need to ration this way, because its unprofitable to us. If you work in a small business, you could have to under go a physical and get the same treatment. If this is not rationing, then WHAT IS?

(2) Increasing Premiums or Dropping Coverage:
Look busters we agreed to cover you as long as you didn't get sick or injured and request any claims. You made too many claims last year now we are dropping you? OK that was harsh, we are only raising your premium 200% no biggie! Hey small business owner in the corner, don't hide, because your people keep making claims, like that Asshole Joe Cancer! Joe Cancer either needs to go or we raise your premium 300%, while taking away things we cover (Note: more than likely Joe Cancer is out on the street with a gigantic Cobra expense!). If this is not rationing THEN WHAT IS?

(3) Removing coverage from a group plan:
In large companies its typical to not cover treatments such as OT, physical therapy or speech therapy, because only a small segment of the workforce will ever encounter them. I am sorry your son can't talk, but its more profitable for us to not cover it, how about you just give him some lolly-pops and tell people he would talk, but he has a lolly-pop in his mouth! If this is not rationing THEN WHAT IS?

(4) Denying experimental treatments and drugs:
This is what I find amusing about the R attacks on UHC, because the private healthcare denies experimental treatments and drugs all the time! Bone marrow transplants for cancers victims are routinely denied because the probability of it working is low and the cost is high! Experimental drugs get the same results. People do know that the HIV drug that has been prolonging people's lives (and is extremely expensive) was for a long time viewed as experimental and not covered. Even today many plans don't cover it! AMAZING! Who are the pundits on the radio crappin! If this is not rationing, THEN WHAT IS?

(5) The HMO:
The HMO has one purpose, INCREASE profits by denying as much as you can. I had an HMO for a little bit and its was pain to get anything. I was denied allergy shot coverage! ALLERGY shots! They said I didn't have allergies! Amazing! Ask anyone with an HMO, they make it difficult to get coverage and routinely get denied needed coverage. When if comes between 2 options they ALWAYS go with the more inexpensive option. If this is not rationion, THEN WHAT IS?

(6) The 80/20 copay PPO:
The PPO, the great alternative to the HMO! You get choice! Great! But it comes a huge cost. The 20% out-of-pocket! I am going to have a child in 1 month. Every other child I my take was $1,000 (note: I pay more for the 90/10 PPO plus). The total hospital bills come can out to $10K and neither of my kids had any complications. We were in and out of the hospital on a regular schedule! I had shoulder surgery. The total bills came out to $22,000, my take again was $2200. If you don't think a 20% copay deters many people from getting needed treatments and surgey you are crazy. The copay is an self-rationing mechanism! Again if this is not rationing, THEN WHAT IS?


Conservatives if you are going to make a case against UHC, then fine do it, but don't do it disingeniously! Don't toss out that healthcare will be rationed, while ignoring the fact that its rationed now!

Pre-Existing Conditions:
"For the insurance industry, long an opponent of health care reform, it was a striking change: with a new administration coming to Washington, insurers agreed to abandon some of their most controversial practices, like denying coverage to applicants with pre-existing medical conditions."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/05/health/policy/05insure.html

Rationing of Care:
Unless and until there is nationalized healthcare, there is no rationing of care in the United States.
None. Zero.

Should your provider decline to cover same, you are, at this time, within your rights to pay for same out of your own pocket.

In other countries, this right does not exist.

 

[GHook93]

I keeping hearing this night and day on the radio that the government will ration healthcare! That experimental drugs and treatments will be denied. That people in need of treatment will be denied.

Guess what people, ration already happens in the private system:
(1) Preexisting conditions :
If you have individual insurance, then they deny you coverage for the condition you actually need! Think about it. You need insurance for your health. Say you have a condition like MS, you need insurance to cover that! Yet the company tells you sorry we need to ration this way, because its unprofitable to us. If you work in a small business, you could have to under go a physical and get the same treatment. If this is not rationing, then WHAT IS?

(2) Increasing Premiums or Dropping Coverage:
Look busters we agreed to cover you as long as you didn't get sick or injured and request any claims. You made too many claims last year now we are dropping you? OK that was harsh, we are only raising your premium 200% no biggie! Hey small business owner in the corner, don't hide, because your people keep making claims, like that Asshole Joe Cancer! Joe Cancer either needs to go or we raise your premium 300%, while taking away things we cover (Note: more than likely Joe Cancer is out on the street with a gigantic Cobra expense!). If this is not rationing THEN WHAT IS?

(3) Removing coverage from a group plan:
In large companies its typical to not cover treatments such as OT, physical therapy or speech therapy, because only a small segment of the workforce will ever encounter them. I am sorry your son can't talk, but its more profitable for us to not cover it, how about you just give him some lolly-pops and tell people he would talk, but he has a lolly-pop in his mouth! If this is not rationing THEN WHAT IS?

(4) Denying experimental treatments and drugs:
This is what I find amusing about the R attacks on UHC, because the private healthcare denies experimental treatments and drugs all the time! Bone marrow transplants for cancers victims are routinely denied because the probability of it working is low and the cost is high! Experimental drugs get the same results. People do know that the HIV drug that has been prolonging people's lives (and is extremely expensive) was for a long time viewed as experimental and not covered. Even today many plans don't cover it! AMAZING! Who are the pundits on the radio crappin! If this is not rationing, THEN WHAT IS?

(5) The HMO:
The HMO has one purpose, INCREASE profits by denying as much as you can. I had an HMO for a little bit and its was pain to get anything. I was denied allergy shot coverage! ALLERGY shots! They said I didn't have allergies! Amazing! Ask anyone with an HMO, they make it difficult to get coverage and routinely get denied needed coverage. When if comes between 2 options they ALWAYS go with the more inexpensive option. If this is not rationion, THEN WHAT IS?

(6) The 80/20 copay PPO:
The PPO, the great alternative to the HMO! You get choice! Great! But it comes a huge cost. The 20% out-of-pocket! I am going to have a child in 1 month. Every other child I my take was $1,000 (note: I pay more for the 90/10 PPO plus). The total hospital bills come can out to $10K and neither of my kids had any complications. We were in and out of the hospital on a regular schedule! I had shoulder surgery. The total bills came out to $22,000, my take again was $2200. If you don't think a 20% copay deters many people from getting needed treatments and surgey you are crazy. The copay is an self-rationing mechanism! Again if this is not rationing, THEN WHAT IS?


Conservatives if you are going to make a case against UHC, then fine do it, but don't do it disingeniously! Don't toss out that healthcare will be rationed, while ignoring the fact that its rationed now!

Guess what, idiot? No one ever said that health care isn't rationed now, or that it won't be in the future. We just said we don't want the GOVERNMENT deciding how it's rationed.

If you're going to make a case for UHC, or against conservatives, then fine. Do it. But don't do it disingenuously, based on what you WANT to argue against, instead of what's actually being said.

Are you honestly saying the pundits on the radio and people in the town hall meetings are using as a reason against socialized medicine is because of the rationing of healthcare that happens in Britain and Canada? Who you crappin Cecille?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Ad hominems, the last bastion of a closed mind.


I wouldn't have to hire an attorney to figure out contract/insurance law. Apparently you would.

Got some more ad hominems you'd like to throw out there?

S'matter? Couldn't find the ignore feature without help?

We're done. Move along and stop flattering yourself that you're still in this fight.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I keeping hearing this night and day on the radio that the government will ration healthcare! That experimental drugs and treatments will be denied. That people in need of treatment will be denied.

Guess what people, ration already happens in the private system:
(1) Preexisting conditions :
If you have individual insurance, then they deny you coverage for the condition you actually need! Think about it. You need insurance for your health. Say you have a condition like MS, you need insurance to cover that! Yet the company tells you sorry we need to ration this way, because its unprofitable to us. If you work in a small business, you could have to under go a physical and get the same treatment. If this is not rationing, then WHAT IS?

(2) Increasing Premiums or Dropping Coverage:
Look busters we agreed to cover you as long as you didn't get sick or injured and request any claims. You made too many claims last year now we are dropping you? OK that was harsh, we are only raising your premium 200% no biggie! Hey small business owner in the corner, don't hide, because your people keep making claims, like that Asshole Joe Cancer! Joe Cancer either needs to go or we raise your premium 300%, while taking away things we cover (Note: more than likely Joe Cancer is out on the street with a gigantic Cobra expense!). If this is not rationing THEN WHAT IS?

(3) Removing coverage from a group plan:
In large companies its typical to not cover treatments such as OT, physical therapy or speech therapy, because only a small segment of the workforce will ever encounter them. I am sorry your son can't talk, but its more profitable for us to not cover it, how about you just give him some lolly-pops and tell people he would talk, but he has a lolly-pop in his mouth! If this is not rationing THEN WHAT IS?

(4) Denying experimental treatments and drugs:
This is what I find amusing about the R attacks on UHC, because the private healthcare denies experimental treatments and drugs all the time! Bone marrow transplants for cancers victims are routinely denied because the probability of it working is low and the cost is high! Experimental drugs get the same results. People do know that the HIV drug that has been prolonging people's lives (and is extremely expensive) was for a long time viewed as experimental and not covered. Even today many plans don't cover it! AMAZING! Who are the pundits on the radio crappin! If this is not rationing, THEN WHAT IS?

(5) The HMO:
The HMO has one purpose, INCREASE profits by denying as much as you can. I had an HMO for a little bit and its was pain to get anything. I was denied allergy shot coverage! ALLERGY shots! They said I didn't have allergies! Amazing! Ask anyone with an HMO, they make it difficult to get coverage and routinely get denied needed coverage. When if comes between 2 options they ALWAYS go with the more inexpensive option. If this is not rationion, THEN WHAT IS?

(6) The 80/20 copay PPO:
The PPO, the great alternative to the HMO! You get choice! Great! But it comes a huge cost. The 20% out-of-pocket! I am going to have a child in 1 month. Every other child I my take was $1,000 (note: I pay more for the 90/10 PPO plus). The total hospital bills come can out to $10K and neither of my kids had any complications. We were in and out of the hospital on a regular schedule! I had shoulder surgery. The total bills came out to $22,000, my take again was $2200. If you don't think a 20% copay deters many people from getting needed treatments and surgey you are crazy. The copay is an self-rationing mechanism! Again if this is not rationing, THEN WHAT IS?


Conservatives if you are going to make a case against UHC, then fine do it, but don't do it disingeniously! Don't toss out that healthcare will be rationed, while ignoring the fact that its rationed now!

Guess what, idiot? No one ever said that health care isn't rationed now, or that it won't be in the future. We just said we don't want the GOVERNMENT deciding how it's rationed.

If you're going to make a case for UHC, or against conservatives, then fine. Do it. But don't do it disingenuously, based on what you WANT to argue against, instead of what's actually being said.

Are you honestly saying the pundits on the radio and people in the town hall meetings are using as a reason against socialized medicine is because of the rationing of healthcare that happens in Britain and Canada? Who you crappin Cecille?

No, numbnuts. What I'm honestly saying is that NO ONE - not pundits, not people at town hall meetings, not people on this message board - is saying that there is no rationing now. Yes, we ARE arguing that rationing is much worse under socialized medicine, not to mention being decided by government bureaucrats instead of the patients themselves. You're arguing against a point no one has ever made.

 

[GHook93]

Pre-Existing Conditions:
"For the insurance industry, long an opponent of health care reform, it was a striking change: with a new administration coming to Washington, insurers agreed to abandon some of their most controversial practices, like denying coverage to applicants with pre-existing medical conditions."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/05/health/policy/05insure.html

PLEASE! That is an empty promise ploy to run out there while healthcare is on plate. After it is removed from the plate, this promise will go unfulfilled. In reality covering preexisting conditions makes little senses to a insurance company interested in spreading the risk and making profit. Basically you are going to accept someone premium payments knowing you will shell much more out!

Rationing of Care:
Unless and until there is nationalized healthcare, there is no rationing of care in the United States.
None. Zero.

There is not de jure rationing, but there is definitely de facto rationing!

Should your provider decline to cover same, you are, at this time, within your rights to pay for same out of your own pocket.

Come on now, doctors will charge $1000 to remove a splinter. They will charge up the butt for anything. Most people do not have the money to dough out $20K-$100K or more!

In other countries, this right does not exist.

Not true, little know fact is there is private health insurance in Britian to cover these very instances!

 

[veritas]

I found it. I thought I'd allow your posts to be shown since they are entirely comical, lacking any substance whatsoever, but good for a laugh.

I'm not a newbie, and I'm trying to be good and see how things go here. I have been known to be quite caustic. I'll save that for later unless/until it becomes necessary.

 

[veritas]

I found it. I thought I'd allow your posts to be shown since they are entirely comical, lacking any substance whatsoever, but good for a laugh.

I'm not a newbie, and I'm trying to be good and see how things go here. I have been known to be quite caustic. I'll save that for later unless/until it becomes necessary.

of course that was for the himi kitten, not you ghook........

Come on now, doctors will charge $1000 to remove a splinter. They will charge up the butt for anything. Most people do not have the money to dough out $20K-$100K or more!

Now ghook, you know all these mouth foamers have incredible depth, and they will never have a catastrophic need, are all as healthy as superman, can regenerate limbs spontaneously like vampires, never had a cavity or children, have $500k in petty cash in the soup tureen in the kitchen and an extra 100k under the lazy susan.....

 

[PoliticalChic]

Pre-Existing Conditions:
"For the insurance industry, long an opponent of health care reform, it was a striking change: with a new administration coming to Washington, insurers agreed to abandon some of their most controversial practices, like denying coverage to applicants with pre-existing medical conditions."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/05/health/policy/05insure.html

PLEASE! That is an empty promise ploy to run out there while healthcare is on plate. After it is removed from the plate, this promise will go unfulfilled. In reality covering preexisting conditions makes little senses to a insurance company interested in spreading the risk and making profit. Basically you are going to accept someone premium payments knowing you will shell much more out!

Rationing of Care:
Unless and until there is nationalized healthcare, there is no rationing of care in the United States.
None. Zero.

There is not de jure rationing, but there is definitely de facto rationing!

Should your provider decline to cover same, you are, at this time, within your rights to pay for same out of your own pocket.

Come on now, doctors will charge $1000 to remove a splinter. They will charge up the butt for anything. Most people do not have the money to dough out $20K-$100K or more!

In other countries, this right does not exist.

Not true, little know fact is there is private health insurance in Britian to cover these very instances!

"That is an empty promise ploy to run out there while healthcare is on plate."
Don't be silly.
Not only are your powers of prognostication in question, but it would be quite simple to codify the promise should it go unfulfilled.

"There is not de jure rationing, but there is definitely de facto rationing."
Silly, again. There is either rationing or not.
Yes or no: can you purchase healthcare that has been denied by your provider or not?
Answer: yes.

In other countries, this right does not exist.
"Not true"
True.
"A local endontist office told me that they get a lot of Canadians who come in for a root canal because the Canadian government has told them that root canals are too expensive, and that it is cheaper to just pull the tooth. Now you should be wondering why Canadians don’t just go to a Canadian endontist and pay for a root canal. The reason is that Canadians lack the basic freedom to pay someone to provide them with healthcare. Private healthcare is illegal in Canada."
The Promise of Reality: Healthcare

 

[veritas]

Not only are your powers of prognostication in question, but it would be quite simple to codify the promise should it go unfulfilled.

Promises don't get codified, only laws do. The INSCos have no standing to codify anything, nor does Congress without an actual bill being proffered and then being voted upon.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Not only are your powers of prognostication in question, but it would be quite simple to codify the promise should it go unfulfilled.

Promises don't get codified, only laws do. The INSCos have no standing to codify anything, nor does Congress without an actual bill being proffered and then being voted upon.

I'm sorry, I used a kind of shorthand expecting all to understand my point.

The industry made a promise to the administration in the hopes of obviating the ObamaCare bills.

Should the industry fail to live up to same, I expect the Democrat House, Democrat Senate, and Democrat Executive to hammer out a bill that would change the promise into law.

Clearer?

 

[veritas]

I'm sorry, I live in the real world.


Promises mean nothing.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I'm sorry, I live in the real world.


Promises mean nothing.

Don't flatter yourself.

Your 'real world' ignores the reason why the industry made the promise in the first place.

 

[veritas]

Don't flatter yourself, if everything were rainbows and creamsicles we wouldn't need ANY laws at all, now would we?

I don't hear anything about people who are getting riders in the mail from their INSCos removing the pre-existing conditions clauses from their policies........What? Not you either?

Shocking!! And they promised!!!

 

[PoliticalChic]

Don't flatter yourself, if everything were rainbows and creamsicles we wouldn't need ANY laws at all, now would we?

I don't hear anything about people who are getting riders in the mail from their INSCos removing the pre-existing conditions clauses from their policies........What? Not you either?

Shocking!! And they promised!!!

Witty comeback, you know, that use of bold with my comment.

So, a reprise of non-self-flattery: you expect me to believe that there are actually folks who would have any interest, any at all, in notifying you about anything, much less the status of their healthcare policies?

And, Sherlock, if they have current policies, why would they be expecting a notice that their pre-existing policies would now be covered?

The point is so simple that I can't see why you can't grasp it: if the industry was fearful of a change in the law that would require them to cover pre-existing conditions, why would they not fulfill the promise since the threat of a change in the law would still exist.

 

[veritas]

The point is so simple that I can't see why you can't grasp it: if the industry was fearful of a change in the law that would require them to cover pre-existing conditions, why would they not fulfill the promise since the threat of a change in the law would still exist.

Why indeed?


Because they don't have to. And it is more financially expedient to not do so. Because they are not beneficent angels of mercy is why. Because I haven't heard of any great offering of policies where they have promised not to utilize the pre-existing condition clause. Because I'm on earth here, and haven't gone through the looking glass or down the rabbit hole yet.........

 

[vharlow]

Federally Chartered HMO's are required to take people .... it's in the charter.

 

[PoliticalChic]

The point is so simple that I can't see why you can't grasp it: if the industry was fearful of a change in the law that would require them to cover pre-existing conditions, why would they not fulfill the promise since the threat of a change in the law would still exist.

Why indeed?


Because they don't have to. And it is more financially expedient to not do so. Because they are not beneficent angels of mercy is why. Because I haven't heard of any great offering of policies where they have promised not to utilize the pre-existing condition clause. Because I'm on earth here, and haven't gone through the looking glass or down the rabbit hole yet.........

Clear that you will continue to ignore the substantive issue being raised.

The 'stick' was the reason the for the industry promise, and the 'stick,' the threat of a change in statute still exists.

But you can continue to be enthralled with Alice, as long as it remains clear that you have gone from Veritas to Vino.